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Thread: Boxing

  1. #16
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    I agree, mix grappling with boxing, and that is almost teh best foundation for MA training to start on.
    'i have a new found respect for crowbars now'

    pause

    'atleast it wasn't about sex'

  2. #17
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    Lowsweep, have you checked here yet?

    Here is the address of a bagua and xingyi school in Vermillion:



    Will Duncan
    4560 Liberty Ave.
    Vermilion, OH 44089
    (440) 967-0559
    HeBei Hsing-I
    Sun Pa-Kua
    Yang Tai-Chi

  3. #18
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    I agree with respect mankind. Boxing is very useful to someone who has a martial artist's mindset. So long as you use mind to apply your boxing skills to every possible situation, it is more than just a sport.
    The reason some sport boxers can be beaten by martial artists is because many boxers tend to not mentally prepare themselves for events in places other than the ring.
    I have a friend who has taken boxing and he is one tough guy. But he also learned street tactics to back it up because hes smart enough to know that there are no rules to a random fight.

    That's how I see it anyways.

  4. #19
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    Yeah

    I wish I had a boxing gym near me. But my dad used to box for the army, and he's showed me some stuff on the heavy bag. I love the no nonsense approach. If you can box both southpaw and othodox (like a martial artist should be able to) then you've the basis of solid punching. And like someone said, good evasion skills and tactics. I really enjoy doing it on the bag, although my old man says I still look more like a martial artist than a boxer.
    You don't need to know how to box in order to be a good puncher, you can learn that from KungFu, but I'm not a KungFu purist anyway so I like the way just being aware of basic boxing skills has affected my kungFu.
    *****in'.
    '"4 ounces deflect 1000 pounds" represents a skill potential, if you stand in front of a 1000 pound charging bull and apply four ounces of deflection, well, you get the picture..' - Tai Chi Bob

    "My car has a lot of parts in there that I don't know about, don't know what they're called, haven't seen them and wouldn't know what they were if someone pointed them out to me .... doesn't mean they're not in there." - Evolution Fist

  5. #20
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    shaolin36,

    that's a useless distinction when the guy has already said he's adding it to complement another style.


    stuart b.

  6. #21
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    Boxing is is one of those arts that so simple, yet so complex.

    Plus it can teach you how to really take a shot, and the problems that come from telegraphing.

    I highly recommend learning at least the basic concepts.

  7. #22
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    Boxing has weaknesses

    I think boxing is an execellent training tool. But not enouch techniques are taught to make it a complete art. Obviously to some extent this is because of the rules and equipment used. However, I believe that even within the rules of sport boxing, one could take advantage of the Chinese science of fighting. I am not the most skilled pugilist to be able to test this out, it is more an observation made after watching a lot of Friday night Fights on ESPN2. The overall style is effective, but no one seems to block in such a way that the limb is controlled, rather moving to avoid the blow is emphasized. For example, I am thinking of a fight where the two participants were pretty evenly matched, except one had a really fast jab that he was throwing over and over. Every time he threw, the other guy had to bob and weave, which interupted his forward motion and he just couldn't get in to land a solid shot. If this guy just used a tan sao or any other block, he could have moved in without losing his structure. I believe that studying boxing will improve your Kung Fu and studying Kung Fu will improve your boxing. The weakness in Western Boxing is that blocking is under-emphasized and evasion and covering up is over emphasized. The opposite is true for SOME eastern fighting arts. I think a well-rounded fighter should have both of these tactics in his/her arsenal. -FJ

  8. #23

    fa_jing

    Hi,

    Have you ever tried to block a fast jab, it's nearly immposible. It's simple Physics, action beats reaction 99 % of the time. In the 100 + years of boxing, isn't it strange that nobody in its history has ever used a tan sao or any other traditional block in the ring. Are boxers ignorant? No of course not. Are these techniques illegal, again the answer is no. Boxers dont use these techniques because they have an extremely low percentage chance of working against a trained punch.

  9. #24
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    Boxing is a martial art. any organised form of fighting is a martial art, even some forms that aren't organised. And there isn't really any weakness, just some people can't handle the training.Its always good to mix boxing with your chosen art. Boxing usualy beats a martial artist in a street fight because they teach the student to adapt insatead of katas that will never work in a street fight.
    ---------------------------"uh oh, what is going to happen next?"

  10. #25
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    to Archangel

    I disagree, obviously. I spar with my sifu, who trained in Western Boxing and is a skilled and powerful puncher. Yes, I know the feeling of not being able to react in time enough to block a fast punch. That's one of the reasons why we have the option of just moving, just blocking, or blocking + moving. I also know that sometimes the block does work, and if it does you are usually in a good position to counter. I could easily reverse your logic to say that after 2000 years of Wu Shu, blocking is still trained. Are you saying that no one in 2000 years had a trained punch, or everyone was ignorant of punching methods? With regards to the fight I mentioned, the guy ended up losing so it shows that he should have done something different. What would be a mistake is trying to block every jab, the idea is that you pick one, block it and move in + strike before the opponent punches again. And sting them hard so that any punch that's already on the way towards you has no power.
    I don't know why no one blocks like that in boxing. The fact is that Western boxing was developed independently from Eastern fighting arts. Although this knowledge has been available for some time (at least since the 70's) boxing coaches haven't caught on. I'm sure that each is following his teacher's method. I know that introducing eastern-style techniques is at least somewhat effective even with heavy gloves on, because I am on the receiving end of it all the time, and occassionally give it out too. But, while I'm on the topic let me opine some more about why this stylistic difference persists.
    1. It seems that some western boxers do block, kind of a slapping block like a pak sao or catching the blow on their gloves. This in contrast to some eastern-style blocks which occur ****her away from the body. The reason why any blocking takes place close to the body in Western Boxing is the same reason that the hands are kept closer to the body in the on-guard position. The punch must start from ****her away in order to generate enough force to hit hard, because of the padding in the glove. In Wing Chun we have the option of attacking directly from the block position (tan da, pak da, jut da, etc).
    2. Some of the ducking and rolling techiniques a boxer uses to avoid being hit cover up the legal targets well, but expose the back, the back of the head, etc. Crouching also makes the boxer susceptable to kicks.

    Here's a thought: Boxers are judged not only by whether they win the fight. A boxer coming up through the ranks must win the fight with style, that being the traditional Western boxing style. Very few people would like to see a fighter with a radically different style. Plus other fighters might avoid fighting this guy because it might not show off their best side.

    This is an interesting topic, I'm curious to hear other's opinions regarding this.

    -FJ


    This is really funny, the word being blanked out above is
    f-arther. Check that software, moderators!!
    Last edited by fa_jing; 12-07-2001 at 02:22 PM.

  11. #26
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    "In the 100 + years of boxing, isn't it strange that nobody in its history has ever used a tan sao or any other traditional block in the ring."

    I don't know what a "tan sao" is, but boxers do block punches. Holyfield and Ali both were known for blocking punches with the gloves. I just saw Manfredy do it last night (on tape from an earlier fight). Just covering up boxing style is a kind of block.

    By they way, to whoever posted the original method suggesting tan sao, bobbing and weaving doesn't necessarily mean sacrifing forward movement. Watch Tyson's early (late 80's) fights and you'll see what I mean. The weave is actaully often used to close the distance and get inside.

  12. #27
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    I agree with Mr. Nemo. During my limited exposure to boxing, I have observed and was taught by my grandfather the vast defensive tactics involved in Western Boxing. Their blocks look much more like pats that cut off the angle to the punch, deflecting it slightly away from its intended target.

    Also, boxing does teach covering, but there are several different covers that have strengths and weakness. Bobbing and weaving is also an essential skill, but its both offensive and defensive; to slipp a punch, for example.

    If you see a fighter who doesn't weave or block or slipp or cover, etc. its probably because he doesn't know it or hasn't effectively added it to his/her arsennal yet. When a fighter is weaving and is off balance, can't move forward or back, has a hard time putting out any offense, that's because he's/she's not bobbing from the legs and the waist; not keeping their head up.

    Boxing is an amazing martial art. In the early days (circa Marquis de Queensbury) it had thumb gouges, dirty shot, elbows, grabbing. Put 10oz. gloves on, it will change your approach to fighting. The difference between Judo and Jujitsu I would says are a good comparison to the differences between boxing in the ring today and yesteryear.

    If you get the chance to train boxing: Do it. It will make your Kung Fu all the better. Of course, that after you have a good foundation in your style, right.

    Well, that's all the hot air I have to give.

  13. #28

    fa_jing

    "I also know that sometimes the block does work, and if it does you are usually in a good position to counter"

    I agree a block may work sometimes, however I will bet any money that it is an extremely lower percentage than using a boxers defence. Also if you do miss the block you are in an extremely vulnerable position unlike the boxer who has his hands up at all times and can recover alot easier.

    "I could easily reverse your logic to say that after 2000 years of Wu Shu, blocking is still trained. Are you saying that no one in 2000 years had a trained punch, or everyone was ignorant of punching methods"

    There is a HUGE difference here. Boxing is tested in the ring literally hundreds of times everyday against 100% resisting opponents. Wushu on the other hand is not. Boxing is a science in terms, theories are derived in the ring, Wushu again for the most part (save Sanda, Kuoshu) is not. I will take the evidence derived from actuall fighting over 2000 years of passed down traditions anyday.

    "What would be a mistake is trying to block every jab, the idea is that you pick one, block it and move in + strike before the opponent punches again."

    Which jab do you block? how do you measure which one to. A jab is used mostly to setup and measure, you can bet that the boxer is waiting for a cross-hook combo to finish. Again, action will most of the time beat reaction, and in all the years of competion I have witnessed, wether it be boxing, Thai, MMA I have never seen that happen.

    "The punch must start from ****her away in order to generate enough force to hit hard, because of the padding in the glove"

    I guess the censored part of the message is f a r t h e r. HAHA, they block out the word f a r t. Anyways, I whole heartedly disagree with this statement, this is such a fallacy that the glove somehow lessens the power of the punch. The hand is taped so it literally feels like cement, then a heavy glove placed on top of that. There is more concussion force generated because of the larger volume of the glove. The glove is there to protect the hand not the head.

    "Some of the ducking and rolling techiniques a boxer uses to avoid being hit cover up the legal targets well, but expose the back, the back of the head, etc. Crouching also makes the boxer susceptable to kicks."

    Actually i do agree somewhat, boxers do need to adjust there styles for the streets. It is by no way a complete art.

    "Boxers are judged not only by whether they win the fight. A boxer coming up through the ranks must win the fight with style, that being the traditional Western boxing style. Very few people would like to see a fighter with a radically different style. Plus other fighters might avoid fighting this guy because it might not show off their best side. "

    This is conjecture and untrue, all that really matters is a boxers record and the quality of his opponents. Prince Naseem Hamed is one of the most unorthodox fighters out there yet he was the star of the lighter divisions for sometime. These men are payed huge amounts of money to fight, A boxer can use ANY punching style that he wants. Naturally it would be obvious that a boxer would use what worked.

  14. #29
    Some very good threads.

    I'd like to discount the notion of boxing's alleged limitation due to it being a sport. When I read that, itís like paying sales tax. Itís simply has no merit and it sticks up my cra'

    Boxing, Tao Kwan Do, Gung fu, they are all one and the same. They teach a person how to best use their body to varying degrees. Most of what I read speaks to an individualís use of their art. If I took boxing, I could kick some butt. If I took judo, Iíd wrap you up like a cheap x-mas gift from every oneís favorite Aunt. Gung fu allows me to count to 4 in Chinese and belong to a cool brotherhood. Oh, and kick some a-s-s.

    I could do any one of the above as a sport, if I choose, or not. Most folks I know who take boxing, do so to learn how to defend themselves or to fight otherwords. Sport is a choice. It is a practitionerís choice to partake in sport. Many choose not to or do both.

    I would disagree with the opinion that boxing would enhance a gung fu player's ability to fight. I see it the other way around. Gung fu would be a great choice for a boxer to enhance their skills; if the teacher they choose, teaches how to fight and not concentrate solely on forms and/or weapons.

    Of course, this is simply my slanted view on Ďmartial artsí.

    nospam.

  15. #30
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    Sharky does boxing and used to train Wing Chun, maybe he can give you info/comparation between styles.


    I havent read all that you guys wrote, its too much stuff.
    But i get the feeling this thread has become contaminated with the "seed of evil", the root of MMA vs KUNG FU all over again
    "If you're havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
    I got 99 problems but a bitch ain't one"

    "If you can't respect that your whole perspective is wack
    Maybe you'll love me when i fade to black"


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