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Thread: Qigong with Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

  1. #1

    Qigong with Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

    Hello

    This is my first time posting. Im writing to announce the first-ever West coast seminar by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming coming up in September 2009.

    I am also a YMAA Qigong Instructor and happy to discuss qigong and specifically Dr. Yang's approach and theory.

    I have seen a few threads in the this forum over the years about Dr. Yang, and decided finally to join and participate in the conversation, thanks to Gene.

    But, first things first. We're hoping some people will show up to welcome Dr. Yang to the West coast qigong community at this event. Beginners will find he is very clear and easy to understand. Intermediate and advanced practitioners will find he is open and willing to discuss qigong at any level you are interested in pursuing, and that he can answer any questions that you have. He is very humble, friendly, and truthful.

    Qigong Seminar with Dr. Yang in Santa Cruz, CA.
    Saturday Sept. 19 and Sunday Sept. 20.

    Date: Sat , Sun 9/19/2009 - 9/20/2009
    Time: 9:30 AM - 5:30 PM

    Saturday, September 19th: Learn the Theory and Practice of Embryonic Breathing with Dr. Yang.
    Dr. Yang teaches the ancient art of Embryonic Breathing Qigong, which is the key to attaining extraordinary health, re-opening the third eye, and striving for true enlightenment. Dr. Yang has spent decades translating ancient documents about embryonic breathing into English for the first time, and his western scientific background as a Ph.D in physics offers a unique understanding from both an Eastern and Western perspective. This class includes seated meditation.

    Sunday, September 20th: Four Seasons Qigong with Dr. Yang.
    Four Seasons Qigong (Si Ji Gong) is a traditional medical Qigong practice in which you learn to regulate the body from one season to the next to avoid common illnesses. This Qigong uses basic Five Elements theory, and specializes in training the five internal Yin organs; heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, and spleen, which correspond to the four seasons the year. By practicing Four Seasons Qigong, you are able to adjust your body’s Qi during the change of seasons so your health can be maintained. Dr. Yang will instruct Qigong exercises and self-massage, and the related healing sounds. This class includes standing and moving Qigong.

    Cost: $150 (1 day) or $250 (both days)

    Santa Cruz Chi Center
    21511B East Cliff Drive
    Santa Cruz, CA 95062
    (831) 465-9088
    info@santacruzchicenter.com

    MAP:
    Santa Cruz Chi Center

    Of course, Dr. Yang relocated to CA last year and he is now teaching qigong at the YMAA Retreat Center in Humboldt County, Northern CA as well:

    Retreat Center site

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Embryonic Breathing Qigong, which is the key to attaining extraordinary health, re-opening the third eye, and striving for true enlightenment.
    please describe what you mean by "true enlightenment" and how so-called Embryonic Breathing is the "key" to attaining this;

  3. #3
    Sure.

    Let me start by saying that the concept of "true enlightenment" is theoretical, based on the available documents from Buddhist and Daoist sources.

    Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming plainly states he is NOT enlightened, but it is widely believed that enlightened people do exist, even in modern times although not as prevalently as in ancient times.

    Also, I am not an expert on this topic. Im only a humble enthusiast, with a healthy skepticism, and a science geek by nature.

    The word enlightenment is thrown around loosely in the West. " I had an enlightening donut this weekend!" "But, in its original ancient context, the term referred to the process of attaining nirvana, by passing through stages of samadhi.

    Nirvana is basically omniscience and immortality, and you don't have to flame on me to say there's no such thing. We are just discussing widely-published concepts from Buddhism here. Not my own opinion. I do however have faith in Buddhism, and agree with the great addage from Nan, Huai-Chin:
    The Buddha dharma does not lie!
    Samadhi is a sanscrit word that refers to the state of consciousness in meditation. It basically means being "present in the moment", without distraction. As you progress in meditation, you're able to hold this state of increased awareness even when moving around and interacting with others, and even returning to everyday life.

    In the classic sense, enlightenment means to attain samadhi, develop it, and allow your body to proceed through the process of 'stepping up' through energetic stages until you reach a threshhold and the third eye in the forehead is re-opened.

    The Buddhist way is to meditate and allow this to happen through meditation.

    The Daoist way is to MAKE it happen, using qigong - specifically embryonic breathing.

    Embryonic breathing is a technique that remained hidden in monasteries in China until the 1980's due to the cultural revolution. Slowly these documents have been released in China, Japan, Taiwan, Tibet. No matter the source, or language, each of these documents describes a specific technique for developing the body's energy (qi) - call it what you will - our 100 trillion cells are alive. Dr. Yang has spent 30 years collecting and translating these documents and piecing together a complete theory of embryonic breathing.

    In his Embryonic Breathing book, he includes the original document, so the reader can ponder the source him/herself, and then his own commentary, concluding with a simple and clear path for practice. (Im not spamming, just answering the question.)

    Dr. Yang teaches this topic specifically due to his genuine interest in helping people, and based on his own progress in meditation.

    I personally will vouch for the techniques as they correspond exactly with the things I have researched from various sources (yoga/Buddhism/consciousness experiments) before I started studying with Dr. Yang. Correct practice helps you to make your own meditation and/or qigong practice much more effective, and improves your health quickly. I feel steady progress myself.

    I am here to help, and I have no reason to lie to you. In fact, I don't lie.

    Id like to say that in general most users on this forum seem very respectful, sincere, and well-intentioned, and those are the people I am interested in having a dialogue with. If you are a qi-skeptic, or one of those "qi-free taiji" people with a Christian revisionist agenda, or just have bad intentions in general, please just don't.

    We should be searching for commonalities in various religions and spiritual studies and trying to bring Eastern and Western medical science together. There's not many of us weirdos interested in such things, and we are all in this together.

    Thanks for writing, hope this helps.
    David Silver

    Since I mentioned the great Buddhist scholar, Nan, Huai-Chin...
    Last edited by YMAA_com; 07-29-2009 at 02:11 PM. Reason: spellz

  4. #4
    thank you for your reply David: you have bravely picked up my thrown gauntlet, LOL;

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Let me start by saying that the concept of "true enlightenment" is theoretical, based on the available documents from Buddhist and Daoist sources.
    I would suggest that according to sources in both traditions that "enlightenment" is eminently practical!

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming plainly states he is NOT enlightened, but it is widely believed that enlightened people do exist, even in modern times although not as prevalently as in ancient times.
    one might question why someone admittedly not enlightened would purport to teach something a way of attaining it - if he's not enlightened, how can he be sure he is guiding his students in the right direction?

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Nirvana is basically omniscience and immortality, and you don't have to flame on me to say there's no such thing. We are just discussing widely-published concepts from Buddhism here. Not my own opinion. I do however have faith in Buddhism, and agree with the great addage from Nan, Huai-Chin
    I am familiar w/Master Nan's work, he is an excellent resource, and in fact I have had the good fortune to attend several Zhuen Ti retreats under the guidance of one of his monastic disciples;

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Samadhi is a sanscrit word that refers to the state of consciousness in meditation. It basically means being "present in the moment", without distraction. As you progress in meditation, you're able to hold this state of increased awareness even when moving around and interacting with others, and even returning to everyday life.
    I think this last part is really the point: what does it matter if you open up your Macro-orbit and go home to be an aszhole to your wife and kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    In the classic sense, enlightenment means to attain samadhi, develop it, and allow your body to proceed through the process of 'stepping up' through energetic stages until you reach a threshhold and the third eye in the forehead is re-opened.
    it's a nice metaphor, the whole 3rd-eye thing; my question would be, what happens physiologically concomitant to one having that subjective experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    The Buddhist way is to meditate and allow this to happen through meditation.
    some Buddhist teaching will tell you the exact opposite, that one would sooner polish a stone into a mirror than achieve awakening through meditation; I would suggest that perhaps meditation is he practice of de-accumulation, allowing habit and judgement to fall away like a snake shedding its skin, until one is able to perceive things such as they are, so one be receptive to appreciate the spontaneous, random events in life that can cause one to undergo a non-linear shift in consciousness..

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    .The Daoist way is to MAKE it happen, using qigong - specifically embryonic breathing.
    I don't know if it's about "making" anything happen: Taoists talk about "enticing the breath" during practice, meaning that one does not hinder, nor does one help the process - "making" suggests forcing it - perhaps that is not what you mean, but a lot of people I've meet who have had limited success or have sustained untoward effects from practice tend to adopt this perpective of consciously directing their practice to an excessive degree, trying to achieve something specific, and pushing when they don't;
    as for the differences between the two, perhaps it's just a different perspective on cultivation; Taoists start with the direct experience of physical existance - hence the four basic practices of lying, sitting, standing and walking; which Buddhists do also, of course, just a bit differently in terms of their emphasis: Buddhists might suggest that Taoists are overly focused on phenomenon and preservation of their "walking corpses";

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Embryonic breathing is a technique that remained hidden in monasteries in China until the 1980's due to the cultural revolution. Slowly these documents have been released in China, Japan, Taiwan, Tibet. No matter the source, or language, each of these documents describes a specific technique for developing the body's energy (qi) - call it what you will - our 100 trillion cells are alive. Dr. Yang has spent 30 years collecting and translating these documents and piecing together a complete theory of embryonic breathing.
    well, we practice this in our school, and it was in our tradition well before 1980...

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    In his Embryonic Breathing book, he includes the original document, so the reader can ponder the source him/herself, and then his own commentary, concluding with a simple and clear path for practice. (Im not spamming, just answering the question.)

    Dr. Yang teaches this topic specifically due to his genuine interest in helping people, and based on his own progress in meditation.

    I personally will vouch for the techniques as they correspond exactly with the things I have researched from various sources (yoga/Buddhism/consciousness experiments) before I started studying with Dr. Yang. Correct practice helps you to make your own meditation and/or qigong practice much more effective, and improves your health quickly. I feel steady progress myself.
    that is great to hear and I sincerely you continued success in your journey

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    I am here to help, and I have no reason to lie to you. In fact, I don't lie.
    but I still wouldn't trust a thing you say

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Id like to say that in general most users on this forum seem very respectful, sincere, and well-intentioned, and those are the people I am interested in having a dialogue with. If you are a qi-skeptic, or one of those "qi-free taiji" people with a Christian revisionist agenda, or just have bad intentions in general, please just don't.
    my perspective on "qi" is somewhat unconventional: I believe that it is not some seperate "other" energy / force distinct from any others currently well-described in contemporary understanding; my blief is that "qi" is a highly evolved metaphorical descriptor that describes the net effect of the non-linear, complex interractions that occur in the body and the environment within which the body exists (namely, the universe); meaning that thermal, electical, kinetic, etc. energy are all aspects of "qi" - the "ancient" Chinese did not differentiate to the level that we do today - they didn't have electron microscopes and whatnot - so based on detailed macro-observation of patterns, fluctuations, etc. they derived a descriptive system that also had predictive value - "qi" was one aspect of what for them was "hi-tec" - it is still a useful descriptor in many cases, but at the same time it does not trump knowledge of cellular-level quantum level and similar types of function, although it might encompass it in terms of how they reflect at a certain level of observation; anyway, my take-home perspective is that it's not some discreet force that you can shoot out of your hands at someone - and I have had plenty of experience w/"energy healing", off the body stuff - none of which I think is mystical woo-woo, but just one aspect of how the organism responds in proximity to another organism of similar subjective intention;
    anyway, I am not Christian in my beliefs, for sure; and I am definitely a skeptic - which, by definition, means that if I hold a given opinion, if someone demonstrates to me how that opinion is wrong based on valid / reliable evidence, I will change my opinion without attachment to the old one; so that's a good thing, I think...

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    We should be searching for commonalities in various religions and spiritual studies and trying to bring Eastern and Western medical science together. There's not many of us weirdos interested in such things, and we are all in this together.
    at least until the post-apocalyptic zombie-undead start coming down your street, then it's every man and his Mossberg 590 for himself!

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Thanks for writing, hope this helps.
    David Silver
    thank you for taking time to express yourself sincerely
    Chris Jurak, PT

    a great and under-appreciated book...

  5. #5
    Hi guys,

    The following are my view just for discussion shake.


    1, I dont buy the

    Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Let me start by saying that the concept of "true enlightenment" is theoretical, based on the available documents from Buddhist and Daoist sources.

    One can "see" one's original face or one's Buddha nature instantly because that is one's trueself . it is just most dont believe It is One's original face or the Buddha Nature.





    2,


    Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Nirvana is basically omniscience and immortality, and you don't have to flame on me to say there's no such thing. We are just discussing widely-published concepts from Buddhism here. Not my own opinion. I do however have faith in Buddhism, and agree with the great addage from Nan, Huai-Chin

    I also dont buy the speculation and even lots of Nan, Huai-Chin's teaching in Buddhism. Certainly, he is an expert in Chinese literature, good in philosophy, have lots of teachers in Buddhism , however that cant substitute the cultivation of a true Buddhist cultivator.



    3,
    Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Embryonic Breathing Qigong, which is the key to attaining extraordinary health, re-opening the third eye, and striving for true enlightenment.
    Is mis concept. IMHO.

    A, one usually DONT want to open the third eye before Enlightenment. This is because until one can detached one get stuck.

    B, Vision can surface while one cultivate Qi. However, the vision can be many things, usually if one pay attention to that it becomes side track and in fact ruin one's cultivation.

    C, Enligtement cultivation is a different path with Qi cultiavtion. even Qi cultivation can aids Enligtenment cultivation similar to eating proper food can aid's enligtenment.



    D, the Buddha nature is formless. one dont need a third eyes to see the formless.

    4,
    I think this last part is really the point: what does it matter if you open up your Macro-orbit and go home to be an aszhole to your wife and kids?

    a facture record,

    The fifth patriach of Chan or the Sifu of the six patriach Hui Neng, EVen he is enlightement. He cant end his life and birth yet. So, he reborned as Su Tong-Po in Song Dynasty. Then, he reborned as Han San in Ming Dynasty where he ended his life and birth. So, even if one got into enligtement, one still cant end life and death circle. in fact that is just a begining of the journey. In that state, one has just broken the "Seeing delusion" or Jien Her . only after one broken the " speculation delusion" or Szu Her one has control.


    The fact is even if one attain enligtenment, unless one has attain the eight boddhisatva ground, there are lots of things one still will get stuck. Thus, from the first ground to the eight ground, one needs to use mantra such as the shurangama or the Great compassionate mantra to penetrate the stuck or attachement.


    So, there is no difficulties in broken the Jien her and seeing the buddha nature or enligthement, as in Tang dynasty, the Zen masters can directly point to one's buddha nature instantly. As the six patriach said " at the moment you are not thinking / speculating/ discrimnating about good or bad, that is your true face." however, To get to the state of naturally non attach needs life times of cultivation.


    The analogy is similar to the following.

    Those who enlightent KNows clearly the different between What is " watching a movie ( analogy to the delusion of life and death ) and real life ( analogy to the such-ness).
    But, if they sit in the cinema watching the movie for more then a few minutes, they still will get suck into the movie's drama for sometime ( and temperally trap in the delusion for some time.)

    Ordinary human has no clue on the such-ness and taken the "movie" as real by default. and trying to do the best or struggle in the "movie", thus, they trap and will not liberate.

    Those who have broken the Szu Her will not only know clearly what is a movie or real life, they will not get suck into the movie's drama even if they accompanion with you watching the movie with you.


    Thus, one still might be an ASZHOLE while working on penetrate or broken the Szu Her. The different is one uses that ASZHOLE habit which is surface once and clean it up totally.

    Some ASZHOLE habit might desolve itself while cultivate mantra, but some has to surface to desolve it. nothing fixed but one must know what is going on.

    As what is said in the Six patriach sutra, " NOt seeing one's original heart/face, there is no use in studying dharma.",

    (analogy) one needs to be able know the different between " movie and real life" and then sit in the " movie " to cultivate detachment to end the life and death or to attain non attachement. That is the path. without knowing what is "movie and real life" all those Qi cultivation is great for health but it is not the path of liberation. Qi cultivation can make one life better in the "movie" but it cant bring one to realization. Thus, as it said, even if you cultivate for thousands of kapals, it is still an illusion. IE whatever in the movie and however the movie makes you feel will ended when you realize you are watching a movie.


    Just some sharing.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 07-29-2009 at 10:08 PM.

  6. #6
    Hi David, Chris and Hendrik

    Very good posts to each of you!

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Let me start by saying that the concept of "true enlightenment" is theoretical, based on the available documents from Buddhist and Daoist sources.
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    I would suggest that according to sources in both traditions that "enlightenment" is eminently practical!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    One can "see" one's original face or one's Buddha nature instantly because that is one's trueself . it is just most dont believe It is One's original face or the Buddha Nature.
    From one perspective, the perspective of the rules of samsara, enlightenment is not theoretical, it is a fact. There is enough evidence from those who have transcended the illusion of samsara to demonstrate that it is possible to become free from the bonds of attachment, commonly referred to as enlightenment! This takes it out of the realm of theory and into the realm of reality/practicality!

    However, from the perspective of the person who has transcended samsara, there is nothing to be attained; therefore there is no enlightenment at all! From this perspective, enlightenment is not even a theory. As a concept of something to be attained, gained or acquired, enlightenment is considered foolishness and reflects a continued attachment to form!

    When asked how the bodhisattva enters the gate of non-duality, Vimalakirti, in “The Vimalakirti Sutra”, responded with silence. Vimalakirti was the last to answer this question which he posed to numerous bodhisattvas, and his response was praised as the most profound response.

    There is nothing to say about it, because to say anything about it is to diminish it! It is beyond conception and description!

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Nirvana is basically omniscience and immortality, and you don't have to flame on me to say there's no such thing. We are just discussing widely-published concepts from Buddhism here. Not my own opinion. I do however have faith in Buddhism, and agree with the great addage from Nan, Huai-Chin:

    “The Buddha dharma does not lie!”

    There is a difference between faith and wisdom (insight/prajna). Faith occurs when we believe what is taught absent a personal, direct experience. Insight occurs when personal, direct experience informs us. Teachings are, at best, a finger pointing to direct experience and should not be confused with direct experience.

    While we may be discussing widely published concepts, the true meanings of the concepts are frequently at variance with a given person’s current understanding of them.

    We must be careful when we use quotes without fully understand their meaning!

    While it is true, from a specific perspective, that Buddha dharma [is not] a lie, Dharmas and dharmas are merely forms (illusions) used as expedient means and do not accurately reflect the prajna of direct experience! Therefore, ALL Dharmas and dharmas ARE lies! They cannot be relied upon to lead one to Nirvana, transcending samsara, or to enlightenment!

    So, what does the quote truly mean then? It means that, while the Buddha dharma does not lie, you cannot truly understand the Buddha dharma until you are on the other side looking back at it, at which time you no longer need it!

    There is an apparent misunderstanding in your comment about Nirvana as well. Nirvana is NOT immortality; we are already immortal and have never been mortal. Mortality is an illusion and only experienced by a deluded mind bound by attachments.

    Having said that, from the perspective of the Absolute, there is neither mortality, nor immortality, the Absolute is beyond dualities and mortality/immortality form a dualism.

    Nirvana is the peace that occurs when one is no longer attached to Dharmas, dharmas, forms, beliefs, concepts, etc. That does NOT mean one does not follow any Dharmas, dharmas, forms, beliefs, or concepts, only that one is NOT ATTACHED to any of these!

    We must also be careful when we use the word omniscience, there is no omniscience, because omniscience is a concept and the Absolute is beyond concepts. The Absolute is neither conceptual, nor non-conceptual, because concepts/non-concepts form a dualism, as does omniscience/non-omniscience (ignorance)! The Absolute is neither this, that, not-this, not-that, not all, and not none of them!

    Further, an “enlightened” person is not omniscient in the manner that is commonly supposed from the view of one bound by samsara. They do not instantly gain a knowledge of advanced mathematics or other forms of samsaric bound knowledge.

    The omniscience gained cannot be conceptualized, so it is best not to address it at all, because this only forms a conceptualization in the person’s mind and then they are at risk of becoming “attached to the concept”!

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    In the classic sense, enlightenment means to attain samadhi, develop it, and allow your body to proceed through the process of 'stepping up' through energetic stages until you reach a threshhold and the third eye in the forehead is re-opened.
    The concept of “developing over time” is apparent within many branches of Mahayana Buddhism, however any method of “developing over time” was considered to merely be an “expedient means” to the ancient masters of Ch’an and others with “insight into the matter of things”, as Hui-Neng put it!

    Unfortunately this understanding has not been carried down to many of today’s Ch’an teachers and many foolishly consider meditation and/or other “methods” essential. This reflects an incomplete understanding of Ch’an and its original teachings.

    First let’s consider the definition, purpose and benefit of “expedient means”.

    “Expedient means” are methods (forms/dharmas) used to occupy the “young in insight” in order keep them from falling into mental habits that will make their journey across the river even more difficult.

    The reason most people find it difficult to directly perceive THUSNESS (without conceptualization) is because attachments coalesce, so to speak, into “habits of mind”! These habits of mind control/color our perceptions and obstruct clear perception.

    So the question became, “How is one to eliminate these ‘habits of mind’?”

    Methods were devised in order to assist those who so desired to overcome “habits of mind”. Unfortunately most people do not recognize that adherence to any method is nothing more than another “habit of mind”! Thus “habit of mind” is used to overcome “habit of mind”. This is foolishness! This is nothing more than rubbing two bricks together hoping to make a mirror, as Chris has mentioned above!

    “Habits of mind” reinforce “habits of mind” leading to more obstructions to perception.

    However, not all individuals are ready (meaning have the aptitude or ability) for direct unobstructed perception of THUSNESS!

    For those not suited to immediate direct perception, “expedient means” are used to focus attention and guide conduct away from attitudes and actions that lead to a condition of worse obstruction. It is sort of like I would rather lose my foot than my whole leg. Neither of them is desirable! One is a lot worse than the other, but either way I will have difficulty walking.

    In the end the medicine itself is poison that must be purged before the “real” healing may occur!

    So, all dharmas, forms, and methods will create obstacles to Mind. This is the major flaw of all “methods”, including Taoist Alchemical methods and Buddhist methods.

    They all create a habit of thinking that binds the aspirant’s mind to the method (form). If the attachment to the method cannot be transcended, then it is irrelevant whether one practices the method for one lifetime or a thousand lifetimes, they will not achieve a thing!

    One the other hand, if they ARE able to transcend attachment to the method they adhere too, they never needed the method to begin with! And this is one of the most profound and true/complete teachings of Ch’an!

    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    The Buddhist way is to meditate and allow this to happen through meditation.
    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    The Daoist way is to MAKE it happen, using qigong - specifically embryonic breathing.
    It cannot happen through meditation and it cannot happen through embryonic breathing. Both are methods that cause specific mental and or physical results, but the results are NOT enlightenment and enlightenment is NOT a result that may be achieved by either!

    That is not to say benefits are not achieved through practicing Taoist Alchemical methods or Buddhist meditational methods, but the benefit is NOT enlightenment. They are benefits related to the world of samsara and are not any better or worse then any other benefit gained within the world of samsara. That is, strength or agility or aerobic capacity may be built through defined methods according to the rules of the world of samsara, however none of these result in enlightenment and neither will alchemical or meditational practices!

    These are the published AND complete teachings!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    Id like to say that in general most users on this forum seem very respectful, sincere, and well-intentioned, and those are the people I am interested in having a dialogue with. If you are a qi-skeptic, or one of those "qi-free taiji" people with a Christian revisionist agenda, or just have bad intentions in general, please just don't.

    We should be searching for commonalities in various religions and spiritual studies and trying to bring Eastern and Western medical science together. There's not many of us weirdos interested in such things, and we are all in this together.

    Your comment here appears to imply you are only interested in a dialogue with those who already accept your own preconceived notions. That is, if we do not agree with you, you are not interested in reading a reply.

    If this is true you have robbed yourself and others of the benefit of conflict inherent within Tao and which is illustrated by Yin-Yang!

    I understand that those who study Taoist Alchemical methods may not have studied the processes of Tao from a philosophical context, so if I may I would like to say a little something about conflict/argumentation.

    Amongst many who study Tao, the concept of adherence to non-confrontation appears to be prevalent. They believe, from what they have learned through their practice of Tai Chi , Taoist Alchemical methods, reading Sun Tzu, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu and others, that conflict is a lesser valued condition, which is to be avoided. This is a misunderstanding of Tao.

    Without conflict there is nothing. Conflict is the essence of learning, growing and change. Without conflict there is no samsaric world, no cause and effect, no you and me, no growth, change, or learning!

    The easiest manner of illustrating this is through a study of Yin-Yang! Yin-Yang is an archetypal symbol that communicates and illustrates a plethora of principles, but we will focus for the moment on the illustration of conflict and its relationship to harmony!

    Yin-Yang illustrates two opposing, yet complimentary, principles. Each principle alternates in dominance. Yet Yin-Yang illustrates a balance between the two. That is, balance is maintained NOT by one principle being eternally dominant, but by each principle taking turns in their dominance. It is an eternal ebb and flow of these two that creates balance. There is no still point; there is only the constant back and forth conflict between these two principles.

    In life, we tend to believe that peace is the absence of conflict. That is because we find conflict uncomfortable. Equilibrium (peace) is comfortable; disequilibrium (conflict) is uncomfortable, so we tend to gravitate towards what is most comfortable!

    However, eternal peace is an un-natural state as illustrated by Yin-Yang, that is, the eternal dominance of peace, (lack of conflict) is a condition that is out of balance with the principles of Tao! Thus the consequence of extended peace will lead to an eventual over compensation resulting greater conflict than would have occurred otherwise!

    Disequilibrium is uncomfortable. This discomfort causes us to search for equilibrium, because equilibrium is comfortable. This search for comfort causes us to move/change from our present condition of discomfort towards a condition of comfort. Without disequilibrium/discomfort we have no motivation to change.

    Discomfort causes/motivates a search or return to comfort! Disequilibrium causes/motivates a search or return to equilibrium! Conflict causes/motivates a search or return to peace, and this search or return is manifested as change and growth, which in the long run is of greater benefit! This principle is clearly illustrated by Yin-Yang!

    In the realm of discussion, if we only speak to those who agree with us, we have no motivation to challenge our attachment to our personal perspective. Without challenging concepts we become complacent and arrogant, thinking we know all we need to know. Our mind is not stimulated to investigate further, which causes personal change and growth! An avoidance of conflicting ideas in turn cultivates a deepening narcissism that seems to be prevalent in all thought systems that do not accept challenges to their comfort zone.

    Challenges, even infantile or ignorant ones, give us the opportunity/challenge to express what we believe we know in new and innovative ways. This causes us to reflect which results in growth due to our desire to make our ideas more comprehensible to those we think do not understand us. Being challenged causes us to consider our own beliefs from different perspectives which creates the opportunity for greater a depth of understanding on our part.


    Well that is it for now, I have run out of time. Thank GOD!! I hear you saying to yourself! LOL!!

    Thank you to each of you for a very stimulating discussion!

  8. #8
    thanks Scott and Hendrik - both great posts to which I'd like to respond given some time to do so;

    wonder if Dave is wishing he'd not dipped his toe in the river here? J/K Dave - but now it's time to play w/the Big Boys - I bet you are in awe of how profound we all are around here? don't worry, it wears off after a bit, and you come away w/a nice KFMF patina...

  9. #9
    Just got to the forum this a.m. Im on the East coast...

    I can't begin to explain how glad I am to find such ridiculously intelligent and well informed responses to this post. There are far too many good points for me to comment/reply. Suffice to say that I am happy to find people on the same page, interested in the topic to this degree. Im in general agreement.

    My initial post was exceedingly cautious as I wasn't sure if I'd encounter only Qi-naysayers, as seems to so often be the case. Im a little burnt out on arguing that "qi = energy" and it isn't that hard to wrap one's mind around. I agree that challenges help us to rethink and better understand a topic - but I feel like I've been having the same "Qi aint real!" argument every day since 1985.

    I also agree that if science proved that qigong is a farce and doesn't work, Id accept the new data readily. But, based on my own experience with qigong and health and meditation and consciousness in general, I feel like Im on a good path.

    And, I agree that enlightenment isnt theoretical - Im just being polite to those of other belief systems - though I haven't MET an enlightened person (does the Dalai Lama count?) I would say that the existence of the patriarchs alone is evidence of enlightened beings, and many others are documented as well.

    I love the 6th patriarch. When I read his statements like:
    If you seek enlightenment outside of everyday life, it is like seeking rabbit horns.
    I know this is the path for me.

    (I am especially fond of the many Monty-Python-esque poems and kung ans from Buddhist history)

    Taai - This whole paragraph is right on:
    my perspective on "qi" is somewhat unconventional: I believe that it is not some seperate "other" energy / force distinct from any others currently well-described in contemporary understanding; my blief is that "qi" is a highly evolved metaphorical descriptor that describes the net effect.............. if someone demonstrates to me how that opinion is wrong based on valid / reliable evidence, I will change my opinion without attachment to the old one; so that's a good thing, I think...
    The theory of Qi and Qigong describe a vast array of systems and processes in the body: retraining the nervous system, stimulating the relaxation response, releasing healthier neurotransmitters, turning on healthier gene expression, increasing range of motion, stretching and lengthening muscles and fascia to improve intercellular communication, etc.

    To say Qi is energy...or biomagneticenergy... or ATP...or cellular consciousness...still brings us to the same place. No matter what words and language we use to describe the processes within our 100 trillion living cells, the reality still remains. The more we turn our attention inward, the more aware we become of the feeling of "Qi", and the better we can cultivate our health and mindfulness.

    The great thing is that there's already a few thousand years of documented experience in the field which can be referenced to guide us in the present, and I believe this information can greatly benefit the western medical community, if we can help to bridge the language barrier.

    About Embryonic Breathing:
    Don't misunderstand. At no point would I suggest that one of us should or could reopen the third eye prematurely. That is something that occurs in the process of enlightenment. It is well documented that even when the third eye reopens, there can be a period of 'firming' and practice before it is entirely safe and permanent.

    Even nirvana/enlightenment has levels of attainment.

    What makes Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming's teaching so fascinating for me is that he approaches this topic from the physiological point of view, and describes what happens in the physical body energetically during the enlightenment process. Don't be too quick to judge him for teaching about enlightenment, while openly stating he himself is not an enlightened person. He's just being honest, and at the same time, sharing his insight into a very interesting subject that he is heavily involved in now in the later part of his life.

    Also, yes, its true - people in various schools have practiced various abdominal breathing and embryonic breathing techniques continuously through the generations. This is not some 'ancient Chinese secret' that Dr Yang is trying to "own". He teaches probably what any well-informed traditional Chinese master would teach on the subject, but his background as a PhD in physics gives some geeky western scientific perspective that resonates with me very well.

    I think you'd enjoy the seminar, and having serious practitioners like those who have spoken up here always leads to much deeper and more beneficial discussions!

    By the way, if anyone has a book suggestion for me on this topic Id be very happy to check it out.

    Preparing for the zombiepocalypse,
    DS

  10. #10
    1, Speaking Qi or Zhen Qi. if one cant evoke it at will. then what is good to talk about it. or being scientific proven...etc?



    2,


    Even nirvana/enlightenment has levels of attainment.


    Not true.

    The above quote is from some one's speculation; some one doesnt know what is enlightenment. That is misleading. and going this path will get one no where but stuck.




    Once one knows/ Sees the Non Dual, that's it.
    Once one sees one's buddha nature, that's it.

    There is no levels of attainment but levels of let go of the delusion habit after that. There is no different level of Non Dual. Non Dual is Non Dual.







    What makes Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming's teaching so fascinating for me is that he approaches this topic from the physiological point of view, and describes what happens in the physical body energetically during the enlightenment process.

    Don't be too quick to judge him for teaching about enlightenment, while openly stating he himself is not an enlightened person. He's just being honest, and at the same time, sharing his insight into a very interesting subject that he is heavily involved in now in the later part of his life.


    How can a person shows one the path to Non Dual if one have not being there?


    In the six partriach sutra it said, "There is NOT a thing, how is it callect dust?"

    With all the Physiological points of view, physical body energtically....... those are all dust.


    No matter how a fish which has always living within the water describes its experience or theory.....etc about living in the air above the water doesnt making any sense. Because no matter how many million of years of experience living within water doesnt be able to substitute for a single pop out of the water and take a breath in the open air.


    The fish which has pop out the water still swim within the water however it doesnt have hinderance going in and out of the water , no attachement to either air or water, and will no longer use speculation based on the thoughts under the water to speculate what is out of the water. The fish which has no hinderance in or out of water is non attach or non abind and thus liberate for it everything is OK.

    Life is OK, death is ok, reality is ok, delusion is ok. everything is just a transformation of its buddha nature or suchness or thusness.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 07-30-2009 at 10:03 AM.

  11. #11
    Hi Hendrik

    Its true. Ultimate enlightenment (as I have read) is complete nonduality.

    But I have also read from Buddhist scholars who's opinion I trust that there are records discussing partial enlightenment. "Nirvana with lingering attachments". Stages of samadhi even after the third eye opens.

    I agree infinite change and transformation is the way of all things.

    On the other topic:
    Dr. Yang is not teaching the path of nonduality. It isn't enlightenment class. It is a class about Embryonic Breathing qigong practice - a very physical process with lots of terms and theories and meridians and vessels that will clutter the mind!

    And the second day he is teaching Four Seasons Qigong - how to adjust your body to the changing seasons.

    These are just tools for living well, which benefit the greater meditation goals if one is interested in such things.

  12. #12

    Its true. Ultimate enlightenment (as I have read) is complete nonduality.

    But I have also read from Buddhist scholars who's opinion I trust that there are records discussing partial enlightenment. "Nirvana with lingering attachments". Stages of samadhi even after the third eye opens.

    Those who wants to know God just pray.
    Those who wants to know about God keep reading all variety of articles and papers and books.


    A message from one's buddha nature.

    http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/t/t...alk_alone.html
    Last edited by Hendrik; 07-30-2009 at 04:46 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by YMAA_com View Post
    But I have also read from Buddhist scholars who's opinion I trust that there are records discussing partial enlightenment. "Nirvana with lingering attachments". Stages of samadhi even after the third eye opens.
    That is why I prefer to read the writings of the Masters rather than Buddhist scholars! Hui-Neng and Huang Po have no time for stages!

    What passes for, or appears to be, stages is NOT enlightenment! It is piling ignorance upon ignorance, it is using method to transcend method, form to transcend form. Grades and stages are "expedient means" used to occupy the time of those who don't have the patience, or mental acumen, for direct perception.

    It is similar to using innumerable belts and stripes in the MA to keep the immature interested in training. They are carrots on a stick!

  14. #14
    Think of it as, when going on a trip, some want the direct route, it is shorter and easier! Others prefer the scenic route, it takes longer, but is generally more entertaining. One is also more likely to find distractions that will lead one in other directions so that you never get "there"!

    Since from the perspective of the Absolute there is no time, inherently it doesn't matter which route one takes.

    Long and short form a duality that only have meaning when you are on the outside looking in; when one has reached the other shore the eons of time one has spent finding the short route have no meaning!

  15. #15
    It is a class about Embryonic Breathing qigong practice - a very physical process with lots of terms and theories and meridians and vessels that will clutter the mind!

    And the second day he is teaching Four Seasons Qigong - how to adjust your body to the changing seasons.

    Sure a Good knowledge to learn.

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