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Thread: how much force should you use

  1. #1

    how much force should you use

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianK View Post

    Remember the society we live in. We're not fighting off people who genuinely want to murder us and our family, most of the time we fight. Usually its people who **** us off or we **** them off. Is it worth severely injuring them? What about the legal consequences? The medical bills and financial hardship they could incur?

    Yeah, chances are they probably should've thought of that before they got into a fight with you. But you should understand where your opponent is coming from, as well. We're all inconsiderate *******s at one time or another, the only difference is those inconsiderate *******s we mess up, probably don't have the training we do. And as such, we have a responsibility to it as well.
    I was reading the timming and striking thread and this made me think. when in a fight how bad do you want to mess someone up should you grapple them and choke them out or should you just let your hands fly.
    personaly I'm more of a fan of striking. plus everytime I think of choking someone out I get reminded of my brother who got charged w/ strangulation when someone pulled a gun on him.. whole nether story
    do you even have time to consider the options, or does pure reaction and repetitive traing kick in
    "All the skill in the world won't hold up to a real confrontation if you are too afraid to use it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Skill View Post
    I was reading the timming and striking thread and this made me think. when in a fight how bad do you want to mess someone up should you grapple them and choke them out or should you just let your hands fly.
    personaly I'm more of a fan of striking. plus everytime I think of choking someone out I get reminded of my brother who got charged w/ strangulation when someone pulled a gun on him.. whole nether story
    do you even have time to consider the options, or does pure reaction and repetitive traing kick in

    I train striking everyday. Very seldom do I grapple at all anymore.

    I have been in a handful of confrontations as an adult, usually with drugs and/or alcohol involved and they always came down to either chin na or closing the gap quickly and choking to submission except one, but I outweighed him and caught him while he was moving and drove him into a wall. It is usually my voice that ends it and I will reason with someone once they have accepted defeat.

    I also was almost beaten once and ended up ending it with a carefully placed punch to the back directly over the heart, which caused him to go limp for a few seconds and then sit up and try to catch his breath before leaving and not coming back.

    I use striking as a supplemental tool for real life grappling instead of vice versa, and years of kung fu has yet to change that reality for me. Your instinct is to control, and there is more control once contact is made, then in any kind of standoff.
    "Siezing oppurtunities causes them to multiply" Sun Tze

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    Also, I do longfist, but have never actually used a kick in a real fight as an adult outside of practicing with pads. I've never even thought about kicking in a real fight since I was a child and our fights were full of them... But that was the 80's.
    "Siezing oppurtunities causes them to multiply" Sun Tze

  4. #4
    According to most laws...you are allowed to use just the same amount of force as is used against you. Unfortunately the advantage then goes to your attacker because you cannot legally end a confrontation by escalating to a higher level of attack than the one used against you.

    So for example, if someone pushes you and you break his jaw, legally you are in the wrong and may be held criminally and civilly liable. You may use great bodily injury only when it is attempted against you, but once the opponent submits or becomes unable to defend their self you must stop your attack.

    It doesn't seem fair I know, but that is the law in most places!

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    I wish I could say that I have never initiated a fight, but I have. When I was in my prime I took money to do such things. However, no matter if you do that or if you are strictly self defense, you have to use your head. There is seldom going to be a situation that allows you to simply bust someone up. These times do exist I suppose, but not under most circumstances. You should never kick anyone in the upper body or head. For any reason, unless you have deadly intent. Twice in my life I have seriously regretted my actions. Both incidents led to the lose of life. In one case I was no billed by a grand jury. But in the other case I was billed and charged with involuntary manslaughter. The charges stuck and I was convicted. In the first case I was alone against 2 people, one attacking me from the rear. But in the other case I had control of the situation and took that extra step and delivered a kick to the top of a fellows head. It happened so quickly, and once done I could not take it back. There has never been a day that I did not regret what I did in either case, but I can not take it back.
    When you overpower someone, you then become the aggressor. He is now the victim, so you have to then be extremely careful that you do nothing that will give you grief later on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    I wish I could say that I have never initiated a fight, but I have. When I was in my prime I took money to do such things. However, no matter if you do that or if you are strictly self defense, you have to use your head. There is seldom going to be a situation that allows you to simply bust someone up. These times do exist I suppose, but not under most circumstances. You should never kick anyone in the upper body or head. For any reason, unless you have deadly intent. Twice in my life I have seriously regretted my actions. Both incidents led to the lose of life. In one case I was no billed by a grand jury. But in the other case I was billed and charged with involuntary manslaughter. The charges stuck and I was convicted. In the first case I was alone against 2 people, one attacking me from the rear. But in the other case I had control of the situation and took that extra step and delivered a kick to the top of a fellows head. It happened so quickly, and once done I could not take it back. There has never been a day that I did not regret what I did in either case, but I can not take it back.
    When you overpower someone, you then become the aggressor. He is now the victim, so you have to then be extremely careful that you do nothing that will give you grief later on.


    Geezuz... dude, that is some heavy schlitz.
    "Siezing oppurtunities causes them to multiply" Sun Tze

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by iron_leg_dave View Post
    Geezuz... dude, that is some heavy schlitz.
    no kidding,
    "All the skill in the world won't hold up to a real confrontation if you are too afraid to use it."

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    use whatever force is needed to end the confrontation... if it takes only the force to walk away, then do it... if it only takes a well placed headbutt to the face, then do it - only puss!es call the cops anyways. i don't consider the law when defending myself from aggression, as my first priority is to concern myself with the moment, not something unforeseen in the future... fear of the laws can be a fatal hesitation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uki View Post
    use whatever force is needed to end the confrontation
    thats my mental stance on this issue. what happens happens though. its also highly circumstancial however. i dont believe that in every situation that people will always be able to have complete control over their actions. somethings just really are involuntary by reaction.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    thats my mental stance on this issue. what happens happens though. its also highly circumstancial however. i dont believe that in every situation that people will always be able to have complete control over their actions. somethings just really are involuntary by reaction.
    my teacher always told me that if backed into an aggressive situation that i should loudly exclaim three times that i practice and train martial arts... after that, it all fair game. the shaolin have this wonderful perception of the matter at hand... if someone attempts to physically harm them in a situation and they end up having to defend themselves - which might lead to the attacker being killed - this amounts to the attacker having committed suicide.

  11. #11
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    I remember when one of the students asked our Tang Soo Do teacher that thing about having to warn them three times, and if it was true.
    "Sure. The backfist to the head is their first warning..."

    I am always reminded of that scene in "Cannonball Run;"
    Roger Moore: "I have to warn you, I'm Roger Moore."
    Biker: "Who?"
    Roger Moore: "Uh, Roger Moore?" >SMASH!<

    I always quote a line I heard , I believe it was in "Weaponless Warriors" not sure, and I think it was Chaka Zulu who said it;
    "You can call me Pu$sy, F@ggot, whatever. But you put your hands on me, you're gonna get hurt...bad."

    I will use whatever force it takes to stop my opponent from continuing his attack.
    Unconciousness usually works.

    I teach my students to use barrages and combinations, each one setting up the next. If one or two strikes do the job, you can always stop, rather than only knowing a one shot deal type of reaction. It's like dressing for the cold-you can always take something off, but you can't put on what you don't have.
    Last edited by TenTigers; 08-29-2009 at 06:27 AM.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  12. #12
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    Iron Leg-out of curiosity, how old are you?
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    Iron Leg-out of curiosity, how old are you?
    115 yeeyah ol kung fu massah killah!

    No, I'm 27.
    "Siezing oppurtunities causes them to multiply" Sun Tze

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    Train what you train and you'll do what you do.... no thought required.

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    You are right. You will do what you do best when you do anything. And you can not always think before you act. However, when you have control of any situation it is best to stop there or at least consider the consequences. It is always better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6. At least that is what I have always been told.
    Any time you deal with the authorities over someone dying, they ask silly questions like, were you mad, or were you in fear for your very life? It matters. In the first incident I was involved in, I was in the process of defending my very life. Fear was my motivator. In the second incident I had control of the person, and so I could no longer use that excuse. Through witness accounts I had the person under full control, yet I kicked him in his head. It had to be out of anger and not fear. This changed the whole complexion of the situation. It suddenly goes from self defense to manslaughter. Involuntary is just a lesser degree of guilt.
    You see, growing up, my hero's and roll models were desperate and dangerous men. I am not what one might consider a good example except possibly for the death penalty or something.

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