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Thread: Luohan Quan

  1. #376
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    The Luohan Quan from Zhu Tian Xi looks pretty good, I don't think it was added, all the forms have Poetic repetition as though they should be done together, I think it is just another Luohan Quan.

    Unfortunately Luohan Quan gets much more complicated.

    There is also TieBiTongLuohan (Iron arm bronze luohan) from an extinct lineage that still has a few forms.

    Xiao Luohan has several roads. Da Luohan has several (I can see commonality in ZhuTianxis later forms, they have the ChangMei posture but do it in XuBu, as does ShiYongWen, I think his Erlu may be the same). Then there are various Jingang Luohan quan and other ones. Then the one you mentioned (I don't know where from)

    Its too complicated for me to be honest.

    Also it is common for one teacher to pass different versions of the same form. I have so many Xiao Hong Quans, which do I teach? What I taught 5 years ago is not the same as what I teach now.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  2. #377
    the thing is that Zhu's luohan quan lacks the known signatures of the ancient luohan style. however, it is a descent system in fact. all forms we've seen so far seem pretty sophisticated in Shaolin quan standards. the poetic symmetry emerges when the forms get longer. for example, shorter single forms like taizu chang quan and such shorter forms do not usually tend to be repetitive in Shaolin quan, when the form gets more parts, then the symmetric sequences comes in. however, some forms, though having several sections, don't tend to be symmetric, like i think, xiao and da luohan quan, which don't follow a symmetric streamline at all. however, one thing with these all Shaolin luohan quans is that, each system, more or less, has a share of the well-known traditional Shaolin signature luohan postures.

    is this bronze arm tong luohan quan related to that bronze arm tong bi quan?

  3. #378
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    At this point I am convinced that XiaoLuohan and DaLuohan are not related. They share nothing really. There are several forms of XiaoLuohan, they are all very different to what I have seen of Da Luohan, I think perhaps they are just different lineages merged over time. In the mountians there are other Luohan Quans.

    Yes, I think it is the bronze arm boxing. There is an old story of TieBi Luohan and TongBi luohan, two monks with supremely conditioned arms and how they kept searching for each other for many years and eventually met up. Bronze (Tong) is softer and more flexible than iron but still heavy so it is considered the superior. Interestingly In Shaolins fist we have TieQuan (iron fist, the standard fist) and TongChui (bronze hammer, the standard fist but with the thumb held to the side instead of below). Both are used frequently.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  4. #379
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  5. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    ...XiaoLuohan and DaLuohan are not related.
    definitely. like other xiao&da pairs, these two are from totally different eras. xiao luohan is said to be much older, while jin tong luohan, which should be younger, itself is inferred by some sources to be from some pre-song dynasty time or so, so it may be some hundred years younger than xiao luohan. da luohan quan, then, is an extension of jin tong luohan, which is created by adding some section to jin tong luohan (and jin tong luohan has 2 versions, one the older-looking performance in Liu Zhenhai-Shi Xingsen vcd, and the other one that of Zhang Shijie and DengFeng folks, which changes the luohan postures into some more normal postures.). now, when da luohan quan has been created is still a mystery. some lineages that have some types of 18 luohan quan (like Shi Degen's lineage and one other lineage close to abbot Yongxin) say that da luohan quan was coined quite recently to become a pair with xiao luohan. here, it's not clear that whether they mean that the da luohan form was extant under another name and its name was changed to da luohan recently, or they mean that the form itself was created quite recently by adding some section to jin tong luohan. this is still an open question.

    They share nothing really.
    right and wrong. they technically share almost nothing, that's right. the thing they share is the concept of luohan imitation. of all the barehanded forms of Shaolin quan the only two forms, i've seen, that are overtly made on the concept of imitating luohan behaviors are these two. though these forms are different, they share this behavior, so they are a good pair.other forms, even other luohan quan systems, may do some luohan behavior once in a sequence, but not this frequent in whole their streamline. you agree?

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    right and wrong. they technically share almost nothing, that's right. the thing they share is the concept of luohan imitation. of all the barehanded forms of Shaolin quan the only two forms, i've seen, that are overtly made on the concept of imitating luohan behaviors are these two. though these forms are different, they share this behavior, so they are a good pair.other forms, even other luohan quan systems, may do some luohan behavior once in a sequence, but not this frequent in whole their streamline. you agree?
    The Luohan 18 shou I practice is 18 movements, all of them imitating Luohan postures, very beautiful. A similar (but not identical) version is in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiQian. Of all this form captures the flavour the most.

    Xiao Luohan captures the flavour but Da Luohan does not as much. I have other old Luohan sets which certainly capture the flavour a lot more, though they are very unusual. Older Luohan sets are almost entirely Shuijiao and Qinna, they have some very peculiar very literal movements. Actually not so beautiful unless you understand what you are looking at.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  7. #382
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    I've been spending my Christmas break starting to consolidate my notes from the past 15 years on the various martial arts I've practiced. I apologize for the thread necro but I'm trying to compare my notes to what's been posted in this thread regard the various Luohan quantao. I think after reading 26 pages of this I'm even more confused, and trying to look at videos on youtube just makes me cray.

    So, to start, I learned a luohanquan very similar to this (starts out jumping to a drop stance with hands winged out) from a Sanda classmate at Wuhan Sports University. He said this was the beginning of a Daluohanquan. Another classmate who had trained as a teenager at Tagou said that it was Xiaoluohanquan. First classmate provided lyrics, second didn't know them, so I just assumed the first was right.

    Next, I learned 2 roads of a luohanquan, the first being this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3q4vhzr58
    and the second one I can't seem to find any youtube/youku video of it, from a friend in Gongyi. He said this is from a whole series of luohanquan forms. But then I see this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew5UJYGCrOI
    and it's called Daluohanquan (with some extra stuff added on the end). A teacher I met in the US insisted it was Daluohanquan as well.

    Since the first two videos seems to be luohanquan forms that are popular on youtube, what is the consensus on the naming of the two, and what is the consensus on their relationship?

    Again, I apologize if this has been covered but this topic is really messy.
    "I'm a highly ranked officer of his tong. HE is the Dragon Head. our BOSS. our LEADER. the Mountain Lord." - hskwarrior

  8. #383

    let's sort them out...

    hi pazman,

    yea, it's complicated, or let me say it was complicated. there was lots of confusion when this thread started, but in the end, as far as related to luohan quan, it's all sorted out. however, luohan 18 hands is still mysterious. so, lets sort things out for you:

    luohan quan has, at least, 3 types:

    1. Shaolin luohan quan, which is 2 forms: small and big luohan quan. your 1st link is small luohan quan. big luohan quan is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Pu656AmJc . in recent decades, some people added an extra section to big luohan form for competitions. this is it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZzRcb5SXTY . if you remove the extra section at the end, it's the original big luohan quan.

    small and big luohan quan are called "old (lao)" luohan. small luohan quan is originally called by this name, but big luohan quan is originally called jin tong xiao luohan. it was later called big luohan. small and big luohan are full of Buddhist looking postures.

    2. 18 luohan quan(s): people at various places around Shaolin have made up their newer versions of luohan quan by adding in as much moves as they can to extend luohn quan to 18 forms. i already classified the known versions of these systems. there are many such systems. the commonality of all these systems is that they use simplified versions of small and big luohn quan with less Buddhist postures and some postures displaced, and combine these with you say 16 other forms. your 2nd link is the simplified big luohan form. sometimes, these systems have 9 big forms instead of 18. they extend the simplified small and big luohan as 2 forms of this system. people may wrongly call these extended small luohan quans as big luohan quan and sometimes call the simplified big luohan quan as the small luohan, which is all out of ignorance and confusion. your 3rd link is an extended version of the simplified big luohan form. they're the same, just this one has an extra section at the end. i recommend you forget about these 18 luohan quans and their simplified and extended small and big forms, they have nothing to do with and are quite out of the curriculum of the core styles of Shaolin kung fu.

    3. there are also forms called luohan quan in most other areas of southern and northern China, like the form at the beginning of this thread, which looks to be from Emei, Sichuan. though some may have gotten some postures from Shaolin luohan quan, these forms are totally different from Shaolin small and big luohan quans.

    more accurate info is provided in the description box under this video:
    Shaolin big Buddha kung fu (luohan quan), simplified forms 1-3 + info (YouTube)

    is it clear now?
    Last edited by SHemmati; 12-30-2017 at 12:24 AM.

  9. #384
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    Cool, thanks Shemmati!

    That helps clear things a little, but it's a little worrisome there's so little consensus on forms so widely practiced. I'll file these forms under 'assorted cool things'...I'm not terribly set on studying these further, as I usually find it better to re-learn and consolidate things I've already studied in depth and can be studied in a systematic way, unless the opportunity presents itself. What are some legit documentation / written material on these forms? (Chinese language is fine.)
    "I'm a highly ranked officer of his tong. HE is the Dragon Head. our BOSS. our LEADER. the Mountain Lord." - hskwarrior

  10. #385

    Shi Miaoxing’s luohan?

    Apologies for a bit of thread necromancy. First post too. One thing I am not sure has been overly clear are the specific luohan sets practiced and passed down from Shi Miaoxing (the earlier one). Are these the chashou luohan or er lu luohan that can be found everywhere? san lu? publicly unknown luohan? Or maybe even all of these? My current understanding is that he passed material to a lot of different people.

    I use to not be so interested in luohan quan, but a supposed description of luohan by shi Miaoxing, along with a fascination with the early 20th century monks have piqued my interest.

    I was also thinking this question could help make this enlightening thread more complete. Thank you! I appreciate differing answers and views from many users!
    Last edited by NotGreg; 10-19-2018 at 06:22 AM.

  11. #386

    Research update on Miaoxing’s Luohan

    Looking at Deqians encyclopedia entry for xiao luohan (chashou, lzh 1) it has the same description and poem that I found supposedly belongs to Miaoxing’s luohan. However, I am wary as some of the stuff in the encyclopedia has been innacurate. Perhaps its the wrong description for the wrong form? I want to cross reference and not be mislead.

    The particular description is the one with the hands and fingers like shooting stars, feet moving like a drunkard, and coming in and out of empty space vs being present. That one supposably is Miaoxing’s and it also matches the encyclopedia’s. From a preliminary hypothetical viewpoint, that does tend to feel like xiao luohan (lzh 1+2, chashou, tagou da) moreso than “degens yi lu” (LZH 3,4,5 dengfeng da luohan). Im still translating.

    If xiao luohan does end up being the one practiced by miaoxing, then i think it would be safe to say that he also practiced Redahai’s 18 shi as they seem related.

    Is this poem/descrption also the same matching anyone else’s sect’s xiao luohan? I don’t have access to LZH or Yongwens books from iask ishare yet. When I do and find their descriptions of luohan Ill edit this post and describe what it says.

    SHemmati mentioned that Jin Jing Zhong may have published his version of luohan. Searching only gives his dao and 72 arts stuff. I suspect my google-fu may not be strong enough

    I think everyone has moved on from this topic hahaha! But if anyone is reading and can give anything at all, I would super appreciate it! And would save a ton of time translating.

    -Greg

  12. #387
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    Da Luohan Quan by Shi Decheng



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  13. #388
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    Our SPRING 2019 issue

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    Are You Worthy of Enlightenment?
    The Fist of Shaolin Luohan
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  14. #389
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    Our newest exclusive web article

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  15. #390
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    Last meme for this issue



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