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Thread: Luohan Quan

  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    to clear some things up on my side, ...
    Amituofo
    on other forms, i have some words to say in next posts.

  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    Shi DeCheng's is also the DengFeng version. DeCheng shows 1 part, Shi DeQi (YouTube) and Zhang Shijie show 2 parts, DeYang and encyclopedia show 3 parts.
    you can identify this DengFeng version by that it doesn't begin with the iconic "luohan salutes Buddha" posture.
    makes sense. so Shi De Jun's is from within the Temple?
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
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  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    on other forms, i have some words to say in next posts.
    thanks Im really interested in the origins and roots of Pao quan, wu xing quan, qi xing quan/chang hu xinyi men quan, zhao yang quan, fanzi quan , tanglang quan , as realtes to Shaolin.

    Amituofo
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
    Shaolin Meditator

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    makes sense. so Shi De Jun's is from within the Temple?
    Dejun's form is the competition form (original form + 3rd section). no, he learned it from his master SuFa.
    if you cut out the last section of it, it's the original form. the original form is from the temple.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 11-26-2020 at 10:45 PM.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    Dejun's form is the competition form (original form + 3rd section). no, he learned it from his master SuFa.
    the original form is from the temple.
    ok, so the there is no video then? would it be the version in the encyclopedia by Shi De Qian?
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
    Shaolin Meditator

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    thanks Im really interested in the origins and roots of Pao quan, wu xing quan, qi xing quan/chang hu xinyi men quan, zhao yang quan, fanzi quan , tanglang quan , as realtes to Shaolin.

    Amituofo
    luohan shiba shou, hong quan, qixing/chang hu xinyi, pao quan, tong bi quan, guandong quan, mei hua quan, zhaoyang quan, luohan quan, chang quan are shaolin.

    fanzi quan is NOT shaolin, it's a northern style and doesn't have anything to do with Shaolin, also baji quan, tong bei quan, tanglang quan, eagle style, 5 animal style, wuxing bafa, monkey style, mi zong quan, yang qing quan, ditang quan, lian huan quan, babu lianhuan quan, chuji chang quan, and maaaaaany others are not Shaolin!

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    thanks Im really interested in the origins and roots of Pao quan ...
    go here:
    Playlist: Shaolin Kung Fu combat styles (YouTube)
    first read the description (click on SHOW MORE),
    then open each video, and click on SHOW MORE below each video to see the description. there's a history description below each video.

    for example, for pao quan it is:

    - history:

    Tang dynasty (618-907):
    after a war in 621 AD, Shaolin monks performed a pao chui (power style) in an exhibition in presence of the first emperor of the dynasty.

    Song dynasty (960-1279):
    pao quan was first officially compiled in the first years of the Song dynasty (960s AD) under the supervision of chief monk Fuju (福居).

    Yuan dynasty (1279-1368):
    in the late years of the dynasty, monk Jinnaluo (紧那罗) improved this pao quan form. this was the 'small pao quan'.

    Qing dynasty (1644-1912):
    in the mid years of the dynasty, the early 1800s, monk Zhanju (湛举) combined pao quan techniques into a base of small and big hong quan, tong bi quan, luohan quan, and some other materials to create the 'big pao quan'. specially, there was a set called Shaolin xinyi ba, which is still widely practiced in Dengfeng area around Shaolin temple. this set imitates daily and farming activities by combining standing and small-frame stances with the pounding moves of the arms and fists, which use whole the body to generate explosive power. Zhanju combined xinyi ba moves into the small and big pao quan and perfected them.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 11-26-2020 at 10:58 PM.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    ok, so the there is no video then? would it be the version in the encyclopedia by Shi De Qian?
    video of what?
    if you want the original form of da luohan (jintong luohan), yes there are many videos. i edited DeJun's video and cut the additional section off of it, so it's now actually the original form (watch it on YouTube).
    i'm going to correct De Ci's video as well. it's more accurate and with more detail than DeJun's form.
    also Shi XingSen has a video which is not as accurate and detailed,
    and many clips are linked in this thread.

    no no, i said a thousand times, DeQian's encyclopedia shows the DengFeng version.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 11-27-2020 at 01:52 AM.

  9. #429
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    thanks so much man! starting to understand the confusion is really just preference. meaning people's perspective and opinion.
    Shaolin's native curriculum is not hard to locate or translate as long as your have proper guidance. I'm thankful for my Sifu being rooted and giving me the right seeds to nourish at a time when I had no clue about where to start, and honestly, when I went hunting for a school back then, I was looking for the stuff I saw in film and wushu shows.

    fast forward to nowadays, you can see a bajillion versions of a taolu you were taught, just on youtube alone, not to mention other platforms.

    the shen fa changes with the lineage of masters somewhat, yet the core Shaolin movement holds true to a certain form and essence of expression and application. so essentially, the only difference in any variation of Luohan Quan, will happen when someone changes the actual sequence order, or inserts/removes specific movements, or scrambles patterns beyond translation.

    with perfect synchronicity, and due to the forced seclusion of quarantine, I was reunited with a brother in arms from high school via facebook who trained with my first sifu a few years longer than me, and we got into some video exchanges naturally. seeing the Luohan Quan and Da Hong Quan specifically.
    structural integrity is in tact, and the flow and rhythm of Shaolin Quan is still rooted in its essence. slowing down or speeding up the taolu during performance should still give the same resonance, and translate the same poem.

    There is still intrigue as to when and why all the implants of various fighting styles, specifically animal styles, and xingyi, also any older taoist influence, on Songshan Shaolin. thats a personal research journey I will have to take on my own lol, and a tedious one.

    in practice I try not to spread myself too thin, so I really focus on Hong quan and Luohan Quan, which are more than enough lol, still , I like the stories and lore around how certain styles came about, and how they got to the temple, so I greatly appreciate the information you share!

    Amituofo
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
    Shaolin Meditator

  10. #430
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    Shi De Yang

    on another note about Mizong Quan, I always thought what Shi De Yang was speaking on was more of "secret boxing" , in terms of 'lost-track' , that would not be the case. mi-zong is used in many schools to reference a taolu (road) that is 'hidden' or 'secret' within the schools curriculum. So Mizong Quan at Songshan is just a hidden style not linked, directly or openly, to any other road, and whose applications might not be shared to outsiders.

    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    Deyang's, Deyong's, and Encyclopedia's luohan 18 hands are the same. except the encyclopedia moves the last elbow strike to the end.
    no big deal. all sources of Shaolin are so messed up.




    Deyang's forms are good, but his info could be flat wrong:

    some examples:

    - in his tong bi quan vids he says tong bi tactic is to faint to a direction and attack another, while this is guandong quan tactic, tong bi doesn't use fainting.

    - in his luohan 18 hands vid he talks about the mi zong forms being the core of Shaolin, while those forms are irrelevant forms from another region, not even from Shaolin!

    - in his mi zong vids (and as i said those mi zong forms are not related to Shaolin), he talks about Huo Yuanjia as a master of mi zong quan, while that mi zong quan is something totally different. Huo Yuanjia's mi zong quan, also called Yan Qing quan is a northern long-fist style, something totally different. these are just totally different styles with the same name, which is a source of much confusion about Chinese martial arts. Deyang doesn't have a clue what he's talking about here; he's confused two different styles.

    so, get Deyang's info with a rather big grain of salt. if anything, his information is not accurate at all.

    When Shi De Yang references Huo Yuan Jia in the dvd commentary, I highly doubt he's being literal in the sense that its the SAME road, for one, Shi De Yang, regardless of opinion, is a scientist of Shaolin Taolu to say the least, and to even a novice of kung fu, the naked eye can see Shi De Yang's Mizong Quan and Huo Yuan Jia's Mi Zong Quan are different.

    What I think Shi De Yang is saying is that "like Huo Yuan Jia's Mizong Quan, which is a hidden/secret boxing of HIS school, Shaolin Mizong Quan is ALSO a hidden style of boxing within Shaolin, that houses core principles of real Shaolin Quan."


    someone correct me if Im wrong.......anyhow I think its just Shi De Yang making a kung fu pop culture reference and correlation of terminology.
    if anything let's put some respect on Shifu Shi De Yang's name. His dvd's are an outreach project to spread basic Shaolin WuGong. we know that what he teaches face to face is much more intense and layered. He's not giving mis-information in his dvds and ANY knowledge he shares openly is a PRIVILEGE to have access to for many who cant get the teachings in person. If we dont respect the teachers and lineage, then whats next? cmon man, we have to be mindful of how we word things publically, some people can misinterpret whats said about Shi De Yang and be turned away from his work, which would be shorting themselves from a wealth of great knowledge wisdom and understanding of Shaolin Gong.

    as for feinting in Tong Bi quan, it depends on whos teaching it, like I said, the version I learned is called Luohan Hammers by some people, has a rounder Shen fa, and in 4 different parts of the form, going into ding bu, and coming out of xu bu, there is feinting taught in certain applications. especially with xu bu, there is leg feints in certain application, and before "dropping the hammer" in guard, going into ding bu, theres a 3 punch sequence, the second punch involves feinting, also in ma bu san chui (horse stance with 3 hammers), one of those punches is also taught as feinting , in application. different teachers share the applications in different ways. Against my better judgement, I'd be willing to make a video explaining this.

    same goes for his Da Luohan quan, taught by Shi De Cheng as well. Shi De Yang has a specific method to his road, It's a great expression of the style, Shi De Jun, and Shi De Ci would say the same thing. Some things are for performance and so on, some are for fighting, some for meditative purpose, or to "move chi" in a vigorous way. Shaolin Qi Gong and Wu Gong has many layers.

    Much love and respect bro, again thanks for all that you share.
    Amituofo.
    Last edited by Djuan; 12-19-2020 at 11:49 AM.
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
    Shaolin Meditator

  11. #431
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    Shi De Yang's Da Luohan Quan

    For the purpose of this thread, I am Going to upload Shi De Yang's version of Da Luohan for the purpose of observing it in correlation to Shi De Ci and Shi De Jun's version, and my theory on why theres a Jintong Luohan Quan AND Da Luohan Quan, along with Xiao Luohan and Luohan Shibashou, and share the aligning movements.
    This is just my observation from practice, excluding the encyclopedia.

    Amituofo
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
    Shaolin Meditator

  12. #432
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    Shi De Yang's Da Luohan Quan Book

    got a nice surprise in the mail today

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    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
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