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Thread: Luohan Quan

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Some sad news, it appears Liuzhenhai may have died recently.... More on that when I find out for certain.
    oh man, _/\_

  2. #152
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    Yes, that would be sad indeed.

    okay, so if your observances are correct Liu Zhenhai's vcds would cover everything Except Liu's and Tagou's Da Louhan Quan set.
    That routine is a different routine, even if it shares some movements and postures from the other ones, it's clearly a 108 posture set that is its own entity.

  3. #153
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    Kind of,

    Liu Zhen hais forms cover everything.

    So, the first half of Tagous Da luohan is for all intensive purposes the same as LZH yi lo. The second half is diffrent. The second half of Tagous Da luohan is also the same as the second half of YongWens luohan quan. However... I beleive it covers this as well. I couldn't see it from watching but now that i know both versions, you can see that most (except for 3 stances) of the second half of da luohan appears in LZH Er lo luohan. I beleive the second half of tagous Da luohan is an abreviation of the LZH Er lo form. As I say you can't really see it, but if you study it you can see.

    The collection of applications i sthe same, they use slightly different stances but with the ame meaning. THe only difference is the the two punches leading up to the phoenix spreads its wings. Except this 3 move section all the rest appears in LZH 2.

    Anyhow the first half is unmistakeable. I beleive Tagous and yong wens are a slightly abreviated version of Yanzhuangs Yi lo (LZH 1+2).

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Kind of,

    Liu Zhen hais forms cover everything.

    So, the first half of Tagous Da luohan is for all intensive purposes the same as LZH yi lo. The second half is diffrent. The second half of Tagous Da luohan is also the same as the second half of YongWens luohan quan. However... I beleive it covers this as well. I couldn't see it from watching but now that i know both versions, you can see that most (except for 3 stances) of the second half of da luohan appears in LZH Er lo luohan. I beleive the second half of tagous Da luohan is an abreviation of the LZH Er lo form. As I say you can't really see it, but if you study it you can see.

    The collection of applications i sthe same, they use slightly different stances but with the ame meaning. THe only difference is the the two punches leading up to the phoenix spreads its wings. Except this 3 move section all the rest appears in LZH 2.

    Anyhow the first half is unmistakeable. I beleive Tagous and yong wens are a slightly abreviated version of Yanzhuangs Yi lo (LZH 1+2).
    Liu Zhenhai's Da Luohan Quan set in his book has a transition section between the two halves that the Tagou book is missing.
    Also, the Tagou books have extra stuff in one part as well.

    I was told to put the two together.
    I even have a one to one correspondence chart with page numbers, shows all the overlap and which one had a posture that the other didn't at that point.

    The first part of Da Luohan Quan is the long version of Deyang's Lao Luohan / Xiao Luohan.
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 11-07-2009 at 09:10 AM.

  5. #155
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    Finally posted the 7 Luohan sets on youtube:

    1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggCi0CUM0jc

    2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_r9DoSZ038

    3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV4r11xzk7U

    4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H036C7vo0a4

    5 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7d2BuZ6uy8

    6 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-dCHAZ2e9A

    7 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxz03NCZk68

    This much has been discovered about Liu ZhenHai's Luohan Quan VCD series:

    1 - same as Lao / 3 Section Luohan Quan. Also Xiao Luohan shown by Shi deYang. First half (36 postures) of the Da Luohan Quan set

    2 - The second half of the Da Luohan Quan set (as shown in Liu's Shaolin da lu book).

    1 and 2 make two halves of one complete larger set.

    3 - same as first part of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set and Tagou's Xiao Luohan Quan set. Abbreviated.

    4 - kinda similar to second part of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set and Tagou's Xiao Luohan Quan set. Abbreviated.

    3 and 4 make two halves of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set (but much abbreviated)

    5 - little bit similar in part to Shaolin Er Lu (Refined set) as in Tagou's set. Abbreviated.

    6 - similar to first half of Shaolin San Lu book by Shi Yongxin (new). Much abbreviated.

    7 - same as Da Mei Hua Quan - first half of set.

    Number One is a done deal, it is identical to Lao Luohan Quan / first half of Da Luohan sets, which is good.

    Number Two - done deal, second half of Da Luohan. Good.

    Number Three - that clearly is the first half of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set, which Tagou calls Xiao Luohan in the book. It is abbreviated.

    Number Four - it is basically the same as the second half of Shi Degen's Yi Lu.

    Number Five - it is barely similar to the modern Refined Luohan set, which is called Luohan Er Lu in the Tagou books. IF we are lucky then this VCD is showing the original version of that set, before it was modernized and parts of Yi Lu (Degen's) were mixed in.

    I don't think so, since Liu Zhenhai has a Jin Tong Xiao Luohan set that is the same as the Refined Er Lu Luohan Quan set.

    Number Six - done deal, it is a much abbreviated version of the Shaolin San Lu set that is shown in Shi Yongxin's yellow book. I think that Liu Zhenhai might have another book that shows this full version of the set as well.

    Number Seven - how the heck this wound up being the same as Da Mei Hua Quan I don't know. But it is only the first half of that set. We should check Liu's Mei Hua Quan vcd and see if it switched and has a Luohan set instead (the only one I don't have yet!).
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 11-24-2009 at 09:41 PM. Reason: updated information

  6. #156
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    Cool,

    Set 2 is the second half of set 1, it contains some (not all) of the stances of the second half of tagous da luohan, but it also contains a whole load of other techniques, many unique to this form. I know this set now and as i learned it it was merged directly with the first form. In my opinion it is an older version of the tagou da luohan.

    set 3 4 and 5 should be together. If you put them together and look at all the unique stances you should get all the moves of tagous refined luohan (it is refined from these 3 sets into 1 shorter set, you will notice the first part of refined luohan is exactly as 3 lo). Putting the 3 together you should also get most of tianxi's yi lu set (a few moves missing and a whole bunch of extra moves). I think these 3 sets together are an earlier version of tianxi's yi lu set, or perhaps just a version passed through a different lineage. If you take out all the unique stances you will see they appear in tianxis yi lu.

    6 is as the san lo by yan zhuang (yellow book) only the first half though.

    7 yeah, still no idea why this is called luohan. It actually only contains moves from the other sets of luohan quan. Looking at ditang meihua quan recently, this also only contains moves from luohan quan... i think they must be closely related.

    In my opinion I think these sets together probably cover about half of 18 lo luohan quan in terms of unique moves.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Cool,

    Set 2 is the second half of set 1, it contains some (not all) of the stances of the second half of tagous da luohan, but it also contains a whole load of other techniques, many unique to this form. I know this set now and as i learned it it was merged directly with the first form. In my opinion it is an older version of the tagou da luohan.
    Hmm, set 2 and set 5 are strange sets.
    Set two has more in common with Pao Quan than anything else, there is barely any Luohan postures in it. But, nevertheless, set 2 is clearly shown in Liu's Shaolin da Lu book as the second half of Da Luohan Quan.

    Where did you learn the Yi Lu and Er Lu as it being one set? I forgot, I think you mentioned it before.

    Did you ever find out if Shi Yan Zhuang teaches a Shaolin Luohan Yi Lu set that merges these two sets (the VCD of Yi and Er Lu)?

    I really don't think that that it an older version of the Tagou da Luohan, because Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin Da Lu book has the Da Luohan set in it and it is much longer and has much more transition movements than the Tagou version of this set. That looks like the older version of Da Luohan.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    set 3 4 and 5 should be together. If you put them together and look at all the unique stances you should get all the moves of tagous refined luohan (it is refined from these 3 sets into 1 shorter set, you will notice the first part of refined luohan is exactly as 3 lo). Putting the 3 together you should also get most of tianxi's yi lu set (a few moves missing and a whole bunch of extra moves). I think these 3 sets together are an earlier version of tianxi's yi lu set, or perhaps just a version passed through a different lineage. If you take out all the unique stances you will see they appear in tianxis yi lu.
    Set 3 clearly is most of Shi Degen's famous Yi Lu set, but the remaining section of Degen's version of this form and the remaining section the Shaolin Encyclopedia of this form are not exactly like Set 4, but nevertheless all of set 4's postures can be found in it.

    I can see where the Tagou Refined Luohan Set is an amalgamation of material from Sets 3 to 5.
    The first part of the Refined set is all different postures than Shi Degen's Yi Lu set, which is what Sets 3 and 4 is in the VCD series.

    I can see how Set 4 and 5 can be united, 4 ends and 5 starts the same postures, but set 5 doesn't follow any sequences of movements that can be seen in the end of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set nor do they have any sequences in common with Shi Degen's Luohan Er Lu, San Lu, and Si lu sets.

    Again, if Shi yan Zhuang has a Luohan Er LU set that merges these three sets together in the SAME sequences of movements, then I can "go with the flow". I would think though that if they do it is just set 3 and 4 that is their Er Lu set. Set 5 in the vcd might stand alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    6 is as the san lo by yan zhuang (yellow book) only the first half though.

    7 yeah, still no idea why this is called luohan. It actually only contains moves from the other sets of luohan quan. Looking at ditang meihua quan recently, this also only contains moves from luohan quan... i think they must be closely related.

    In my opinion I think these sets together probably cover about half of 18 lo luohan quan in terms of unique moves.
    Yeah, set 6 is clearly Shaolin Luohan San Lu, which is great to see, glad for that.

    Set 7, I don't know what happened here. I still think it is mistake. It's not even filmed in the same place and time as the other 6 sets were in this series.

    There still seems to be separate Shaolin Luohan Quan lineages with their own sets.

    1 - There's Shaolin's Yi, Er, and Lu sets that Shi Yan Zhuang does.

    2 - There's Shi Degen's series of extra Luohan sets after Yi Lu to ? lu.

    3 - There's some sets that Liu Zhenhai does that no one else seems to do.

    Only the Lao (3 section / Xiao) Luohan is in common between Shaolin via Shi Deyang (from Su Xi?) and Liu Zhenhai Set 1 (vcd).

    Also, the Shaolin Encyclopedia shows:

    1 - a 27 posture Luohan Quan that begins like Lao Luohan but that goes into entirely different set. It is not like any of the sets in Tagou nor Liu's vcds.

    2- a Luohan Quan set that is the same as Shi Degen's Yi Lu / Tagou Xiao Luohan, except after the same point that EVERYONE'S version of this set, it goes off into another direction and has all different movements than the remaining section of Degen's Yi Lu.
    Tagou's Xiao Luohan does this as well.
    Did perhaps Shi Degen not teach the remaining section of this set to people? Except Zhu Tian Xi, as he seems to be doing the whole set.
    That video of Zhu's students doesn't finish the Yi Lu set either, but his goes further into it than other versions.

    3 - the Refined Luohan Quan set, exactly the same as Tagou's set of the same name.
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 11-24-2009 at 09:51 PM. Reason: updated information

  8. #158
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    I learned the yi lu and er lu together as one set from Yan Zhuang. Actually LZH er lo is really bizzare, it has nothing in common with any other set. I know a lot of shaolin sets and almost every move in er lo is unique and appears nowhere else. THis in someway links it to yi lu as most of the yi lu set is unique as well (in comparision to shaolin standard sets, namely dahong, pao, tongbi, changhuxinyi). I think the fact it is so so different from many other shaolin sets means that this luohan quan may be from a different era from the other luohan quans. Tagous book makes it look more standardized but actually everything about this form is strange, nothing is done the way its done in other forms, it is utterly unique. not to mention Luohan quan has a different shen fa than you would use in other shaolin sets.

    Er lo luohan (LZH 3,4,5 Degen Yi, Tagou xiao + refined) is a little more standard. I think all the sets in brackets are all manifestations of this form. It supposedly has 108 moves, enough to incorperate all the stances of all the variations we know of. I'm gonna say that if you find the longest set it is probably the oldest. I know many shorter versions of this set but i don't know Yan zhuangs version of it. It is my assumption looking at other sets and by conversation with yan zhuang that this set is LZH 3+4+5 all linked together as one. 3+4 clearly link together, they even have symmetry markers. 5 isn't as clear a link but because of the refined luohan set i think it goes together.

    I don't have LZH's Da lu book (that sounds awesome by the way) but i think if you take a look at it again you may find that his second half of yi lu luohan is his er lo set... His sons performance in the VCD is not exactly as it may look written down. you will have to actually commit a few moves to memory then look through it. Plus in the VCD his son changes direction a lot of times, he does this to keep it in a smaller space.

    The second half of Tagous Da luohan is very close to yong wens luohan which is also from Degen. SO i think Degen probably knew all the respective sets. How Tianxi chooses to name them is up to him so the yilu, erlu etc means nothing, there is probably not an order. I now know both Tagous Da luohan and yan zhuangs yi lu.... There are only a couple of moves that don't fit, i really think that the second half of Da luohan is just an abreviation of LZH er lo set. It may be an abreviation that appeared 200 years ago and has changed somewhat but i think it is the same thing. It still contains a lot of similarities.

  9. #159
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    I posted this video today on YuoTube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Pu656AmJc

    It's from Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin series.
    It's called Jin Tong Xiao Luohan Quan - Golden Child Small Luohan Fist.

    It's completely the Er Lu Luohan - aka Refined Luohan Quan set.

    It's exactly in the same sequence as the better known Refined Luohan set, but it is more "basic" than the modern looking way most do it today.

    Strange, it's not like his Luohan #5 set really. Shares some moves from it, but sequence is all different and emphasis is all different.

    The VCD seems to be saying that this is an old set, the new version commonly seen has more postures and has another section at the very end.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    I learned the yi lu and er lu together as one set from Yan Zhuang. Actually LZH er lo is really bizzare, it has nothing in common with any other set. I know a lot of shaolin sets and almost every move in er lo is unique and appears nowhere else. THis in someway links it to yi lu as most of the yi lu set is unique as well (in comparision to shaolin standard sets, namely dahong, pao, tongbi, changhuxinyi). I think the fact it is so so different from many other shaolin sets means that this luohan quan may be from a different era from the other luohan quans. Tagous book makes it look more standardized but actually everything about this form is strange, nothing is done the way its done in other forms, it is utterly unique. not to mention Luohan quan has a different shen fa than you would use in other shaolin sets.
    Well, if you think about the history of Luohan Quan and that it comes from the material that Jue Yuan was doing (from out of Bai Yufeng's Wu Quan), these old Luohan sets should really look like Chang Quan, Hong Quan, Pao Quan since they are all of one family arising from the same time period and people.
    If the sets look too different from Pao Quan, etc., than they more than likely were developed during the Qing Dynasty, rather than the early Ming era of Jue Yuan.

    Being that Liu's book has a very strange looking Shaolin Luohan 18 Hands set that he attributes to Li Sou and so on, and then he shows his Da Luohan, which shares some similar attributes and looks related to it, I would guess at this point that Da Luohan could turn out to be the oldest of the Shaolin Luohan Quan sets.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    I don't have LZH's Da lu book (that sounds awesome by the way) but i think if you take a look at it again you may find that his second half of yi lu luohan is his er lo set... His sons performance in the VCD is not exactly as it may look written down. you will have to actually commit a few moves to memory then look through it. Plus in the VCD his son changes direction a lot of times, he does this to keep it in a smaller space.
    Liu's Yi Lu set is the (same as Shi deyang's) Lao Luohan set, OLD Luohan, and it is also called 3 Section Luohan, because it has three sections to the set. Deyang and now a lot of others call this set "Xiao Luohan" but it is really known as Lao Luohan. Over 10 years ago I was shown it as Lao Luohan. SO< let's say it is correct and really old, then IF as Shi Yan Zhuang does it, Liu's Yi Lu and Er Lu are one complete set, then it may signify (especially since Er Lu looks so Pao Quan like) that these are some of the oldest Luohan Quan sets that harken back to Jue Yaun's Luohan Quan sets.

    By the way, this set shown in Liu's Yi lu, which is the same as Deyang's Xiao Luohan set, has nothing to do with Tagou's Xiao Luohan (which as shown previously is in fact Liu's San and Si Lu sets and also Shi Degen's Yi Lu set). Previously in this thread, much further back in the posts, you said that Deyang's Xiao Luohan was weird because it looked nothing like anyone else's Xiao Luohan.

    Well, yes, that is because everyone is using the name "Xiao Luohan" too loosely.
    Deyang's Xiao is the Lao Luohan Quan set, as established so far in this discussion, and it is not at all the Xiao set in the Tague books, since that is in fact the Yi Lu set (most of it) from Shi Degen.

    Shi Degen's Yi Lu is the standard for the Tagou Xiao Luohan set, but it is not a Xiao set nor a Da set. It is one of at least 8 sets (18 is hard to believe). Tagou calls the set "Xiao" just to make it act as a couple with their Da Luohan set (which Liu does a much more complete version).
    I think NONE of the sets shown in anyone's videos known so far is the actual real Xiao Luohan set.
    The real Xiao Luohan set is the one 27 posture set shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.

    Now, to top it off, the LAO Luohan / Liu's Yi Lu set is simply nothing but the first 36 Postures / 67 movements of the DA LUOHAN set (if you follow along in Liu's Shaolin Da Lu book's more complete version of the Da Luohan set). Liu's Yi Lu set is EXACTLY the same (but a bit less complex) as his version of the Da Luohan set.

    As such, it is different than Tagou's version because their version has extraneous movements and skips postures and so on. But it is generally the same set from movement 1 to 66. After that the Tagou set is nothing like Liu's version and ends so after, missing the whole last sections.
    Sorry, but in my personal opinion, the Tagou version is a big mess, it lacks many, many postures and transitional movements and lacks the amazing coherence that Liu's version has. If you can see the two versions side by side, you would agree. It's like beauty and the beast, really.

    Are we totally confused yet? Ha!
    Lao / 3 Section / Xiao (deyang) / Yi lu (Liu zhenhai) set = Da Luohan postures 1 to 36. A very nice number to stop at and make a shortened version of Da Luohan.

    So, Da Luohan is the mother set to Lao Luohan. The first 36 posture match in form and in sequence.
    One thing settled. Phew!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    The second half of Tagous Da luohan is very close to yong wens luohan which is also from Degen. SO i think Degen probably knew all the respective sets. How Tianxi chooses to name them is up to him so the yilu, erlu etc means nothing, there is probably not an order.

    I now know both Tagous Da luohan and yan zhuangs yi lu.... There are only a couple of moves that don't fit, i really think that the second half of Da luohan is just an abreviation of LZH er lo set. It may be an abreviation that appeared 200 years ago and has changed somewhat but i think it is the same thing. It still contains a lot of similarities.
    Where is there a video of Yong Wen doing this Luohan set, do you have a link?

    Second half of Liu's Da Luohan, from his book, is same as Tagou's but with many more postures and transitional movements. AND, Liu's version has 16 more pages of postures after Tagou's ends, with 3 postures per page! That's 16 x 3 = 48 more just for the end, and then there is all the transition postures not seen in Tagou.
    Also, Tagou has just sets of straight punches in gong bu whenever it loses its place when followed along Liu's version. Seems it just fills in missing movements with just piles of punches (unless they marked the set that way) and generalized extraneous movements.

    I assure you that Liu's book version of Da Luohan is much more comprehensive and complex and very interesting compared to Tagou's rudimentary looking version. It truly is a Da Luohan set with 69 postures (not counting open and close positions) and 144 different movements.

    Okay, moving on:
    Liu's Er Lu vcd is identical to Liu Zhenhai's second half of Da Luohan Quan.
    I just followed along these two videos to his book and they are identical (though no where as detailed as the book version).

    SO, that makes a set, Liu's Yi Lu and Er Lu together make a complete Da Luohan Quan set.
    Thus, Shi Yanzhuang's Yi Lu set is the complete Da Luohan Quan set.
    Another mystery solved. Hurray!
    Lao Luohan and Da Luohan both settled, with Lao being the first half of Da.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Er lo luohan (LZH 3,4,5 Degen Yi, Tagou xiao + refined) is a little more standard. I think all the sets in brackets are all manifestations of this form. It supposedly has 108 moves, enough to incorperate all the stances of all the variations we know of. I'm gonna say that if you find the longest set it is probably the oldest. I know many shorter versions of this set but i don't know Yan zhuangs version of it. It is my assumption looking at other sets and by conversation with yan zhuang that this set is LZH 3+4+5 all linked together as one. 3+4 clearly link together, they even have symmetry markers. 5 isn't as clear a link but because of the refined luohan set i think it goes together.
    Set # five starts with the same exact posture as set # four ends, it's clear to see.

    In fact, it is Liu's #4 set, Si Lu, that continues on in Shi Degen's Yi Lu and finishes the remainder of Degen's set. Although it is highly abbreviated, you can follow along in the Yi Lu book and see the postures in sequence until it gets to the end. It skips some postures between each one that it does do, but it doesn't change the direction of their sequence. Each move can be found further along in Degen's book, until the Yi Lu is complete.
    Thus, it is set 3 and 4 of Liu's Luohan vcds that are the abbreviated version of all of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set. In other words, a "full" version of Tagou's Xiao Luohan set (as well).

    Shi Degen's last section of Yi lu starts right after the final leg sweep move, when the hands are in the "on guard" position, and the body is in a low squatting Qi Bu (empty step). End of Set #3 video.
    I have yet to see anyone do these last 25 postures COMPLETELY anywhere on video (so far). As i said, set #4 does the rest of Degen's Yi Lu in highly abbreviated form but still in correct sequential order of postures.

    So, I can safely say that set 3 and 4 are a pair (as are sets 1 and 2)

    As far as sets 3 to 5 go:

    If you say that all these so far mentioned Luohan sets are in essence sub-sets of material found in the (complete) Da Luohan Quan set, okay, that very well may be if you look at random Luohan stylistic postures. But, not if you are looking at matching sequences of patterns of postures and movements.

    I think the Da Luohan Quan and Degen's Yi Lu, etc. Quan sets are coming from different ideas.

    Shi Degen's Yi lu (Liu's #3 and #4 sets) is it's own instructional entity, linked to his Er lu, San Lu, Si Lu and so on. All of those sets are meant to be part of Shi Degen's Rou Quan system. All of their moves are found in all of his Rou Quan sets.
    The tape of Zhu Tianxi's student doing both the Rou Quan 108 set and the Luohan Yi, Er, and Si Lu (too bad San Lu is missing!) CLEARLY shows their very close relationship. The Luohan sets might as well be Rou Quan sets, they share so many of postures and movements.

    Back to Liu's set #5, it is the remaining mystery!
    If Shi Yanzhuang's Er Lu set encompasses Liu's sets #3 to 5, then that solves that. But if it doesn't, and leaves out set #5, then we are back to the same question:

    Set #5 doesn't match any order of sequential movements / postures in Shi Degen's Yi Lu and Er Lu sets at all, so where does it come from?

    The only thing I can find (so far) that is essentially like it is the very last section of the second Shaolin Luohan Quan set in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, which has some extra movements that continue past the end of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set.
    So, if it is truly that, then, I guess Liu's #5 set is the final ending part of the Yi Lu set.
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 11-24-2009 at 10:29 PM. Reason: more info

  12. #162
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    Whew,

    Ok so I think we are in agreement.

    Yan zhuang yi lu, LZH 1+2 is pretty much the ultimate most complete version of, lets call it Da luohan quan. More complete than tagous version. I agree, i am probably one of the few people who know both, and i can assure you tagous version is very ugly in comparision.

    I don't see relation to any style of pao quan, hong quan or tongbi though, so i really think this luohan quan may be unrelated to other luohan quans.

    I will release a video of me doing this set when i get back home for christmas.

    3,4 and 5 would certainly cover MOST of Degens Yi lu then and contain some extra....

    These two forms are the main and most famous of luohan quan, so LZH has the most complete versions.

    The question remains why is Degens version different (he was also one of LZH's masters). We know he did the Da luohan set (i have the book from YongWen, closer to Tagous than LZH's, second half is just like tagous, first half just like LZH). So we can assume TianXi has this set as well.

    Yong Wen said that Degen could practice all 18 sets of luohan quan together without a break. Only one of the sets should be rou quan... Yong wen said that all the sets have specific character traits, so there is a ROu luohan, a Gang luohan (hard luohan) a Zui luohan (drunk, yong wen has this set) and many more.

    I will need to find Tianxi's school and find out, might have to wait until next spring.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Whew,

    Ok so I think we are in agreement.

    Yan zhuang yi lu, LZH 1+2 is pretty much the ultimate most complete version of, lets call it Da luohan quan. More complete than tagous version. I agree, i am probably one of the few people who know both, and i can assure you tagous version is very ugly in comparision.

    I don't see relation to any style of pao quan, hong quan or tongbi though, so i really think this luohan quan may be unrelated to other luohan quans.

    I will release a video of me doing this set when i get back home for christmas.

    3,4 and 5 would certainly cover MOST of Degens Yi lu then and contain some extra....

    These two forms are the main and most famous of luohan quan, so LZH has the most complete versions.

    The question remains why is Degens version different (he was also one of LZH's masters). We know he did the Da luohan set (i have the book from YongWen, closer to Tagous than LZH's, second half is just like tagous, first half just like LZH). So we can assume TianXi has this set as well.

    Yong Wen said that Degen could practice all 18 sets of luohan quan together without a break. Only one of the sets should be rou quan... Yong wen said that all the sets have specific character traits, so there is a ROu luohan, a Gang luohan (hard luohan) a Zui luohan (drunk, yong wen has this set) and many more.

    I will need to find Tianxi's school and find out, might have to wait until next spring.
    Hmm, Degen's form in the book by Yongwen is the same exact same as in the book by Zhu Tianxi, Zhu's is just a reprint. I have both versions. Both use all the same drawings of Degen doing the form. Yongwen's book says Yi Lu on the cover, it is a gold cover, and Zhu's doesn't say that, and have a photo of himself now on the cover. Zhu's has more photos and other stuff in front and back of book.

    I have another Shaolin book by Yongwen that has many of the forms we talked about. I know there are others too.

    Do you know the names of any other of Yongwen's books? ISBN numbers?
    Can you type in Chinese characters? Can you post the characters for his name?

    Do you have background info on Shi Degen that you can post? His teachers names? I think I was told that he had learned Taizu Quan first, as did Zhu Tianxi, as did Shi Deqian (RIP), as did Shi Dejian, and some others.

    Who were Shi Yanzhuang's teachers? All his forms are the same as Liu Zhenhai's from Luohan to Rou Quan.

    Maybe Da Mei Hua Quan as in Luohan set #6 (VCD) was part of Shi Degen's 18 forms and thus is considered a Luohan form?

    Did you know there is a giant 264 DVD set of Shaolin routines out? Liu Baoshan, and all the old timers are featured in them.
    I had been getting as many as I can, but I am broke right now, I was laid off from my job I had for 25 years (those a s s h o l e s).
    I think some of the sets we are trying to figure out the background of are featured in the set as well, and they could provide more info. They are in english and chinese, I learned many new historical facts from them.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    The yongwen book i have of luohan quan is different. It is the lao luohan quan, tagou Da luohan quan. Haven't seen the Tianxi book but i thought you said it was the same as zhangshi jie's which is the other big luohan form.
    You're right I meant Zhangshi Jie, but it's all the same form after all in all these books.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Degen was one of the only monks who stayed in shaolin all through all the problems of last century. He seemed to teach different things to different people and i think he knew everything that was practiced in shaolin over the last century as he was the last wuseng left at points. He probably trained with everyone famous over the last century. I know that for a brief period Wushanlin stayed at shaolin. Degen learned from him during this time. Wu shan lin is the master we get most of Pao quan from and Xinyiba. He died the same year as degen i think, only he was much much older.
    Wu Shanlin's Pao Quan has Xinyiba hidden inside it. I've been told.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    I know of the new DVD series. They have only published 108 so far. I wouldn't spend too much money on them if i were you. Every DVD is made like a VCD, irt doesn't have a menu. THey are all only an hour long, and if it goes over an hour they put it on 2 dvds... and DOUBLE the price. loong forms span to 4 dvds. But the B$%*&^ds put a 20 minute intro onto every disc, even the 2nd and 3rd discs. Plus they onlt give one performance of the form, from one angle, then to teach you the form they just show this one performance in slow motion, they don't break down the moves. So when an old master does it, it is next to useless as the moves are not clear. If they do one performance disc with lots of performances on get that instead. Really crap series. Still because i am in china they are quite cheap for me, i have about 50 so far.

    If you want to buy any more ask me about them first because most are pants... One or too are good and have applications at the end, but most are really a waste of money. I have a load I don't even really want, maybe we can work something out.
    Yeah, I agree they suck for the most part. I've been getting them as I find them if they are routines I am researching.

    I hate how they have that darn intro over and over on the discs, and yes all could have fit on one disc.
    The whole series was made to sell to overseas people really. And so of course they are taking advantage of people.

    The Taizu Chang Quan ones are really awful. There a two different ones. They don't even do the forms correctly, they skip some movements and mess up other ones. I am surprised at the old guys who do the performances.
    But, Liu Baoshan's interview on the first DVD in the series was good and informative.
    The best part of them has been the interviews with the old guys, rather than the forms themselves. Some has led me to find some information through other sources based on what was said in the interviews.

  15. #165
    I'm interested in picking up some of the Liu Zhen Hai VCD's, particularly the ones of him doing the Pao Quan sets. Any advice on where to pick them up? I've searched plumpub and cmaod to no avail...

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