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Thread: Luohan Quan

  1. #271
    thanks Sal for your description of Jue yuan and his activities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    I just looked over the Shaolin rou quan and Taizuchang quan sets, I see pretty much all of Zhu's Chan Yuan gong and 108 set inside of them. There's nothing new in Zhu's sets.
    do you see the 108 posture set in it's current form in them?
    are the authors of those resources independent of Zhu and his teachings?

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    this is Shi Yongwen's book. he has also been a student of Degen.

    少林寺武术教材(释永文编著)
    There's a lot of information in that book! It'll take a while to read through it all. I skipped ahead to the Xiantian Luohan Shiba Shou, which it says is one of the many popular Luohan sets outside of the monastery. By the description it appears to be some sort of Qigong set.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    There's a lot of information in that book! It'll take a while to read through it all. I skipped ahead to the Xiantian Luohan Shiba Shou, which it says is one of the many popular Luohan sets outside of the monastery. By the description it appears to be some sort of Qigong set.
    The original Luohan Shiba Shou is also the 8 section brocade made into 12 sections, by Baiyufeng, which is called the Yi Jin Jing sometimes. It is the 12 section qigong set that is super important as it is the original material that Taoist 13 Postures Quan was developed from and other styles.
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  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    thanks Sal for your description of Jue yuan and his activities.


    do you see the 108 posture set in it's current form in them?
    are the authors of those resources independent of Zhu and his teachings?
    No, not in current form, if you mean "are the sequences of postural movements the same?". If you mean are the postures themselves in there, then yes, but done more proto-typically.

    Well, yeah, the authors are independent of Zhu, the Shaolin Encyclopedia describes the sets, as do the yellow booklets. Though LZH does these Rou Quan sets, so do other monk lineages that aren't under Shi Degen. LZH could have learned these Rou Quan sets from someone other than Shi Degen. But if he did learn them from him, then obviously Shi Degen and Zhu didn't make them up.

    I'm pretty sure, which LFJ can verify, that the Shaolin Encyclopedia says that the Rou Quan sets are from before the Ming Dynasty.
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  5. #275
    Sal, attributing sooooooo many styles, Qigong sets, basics. etc, etc, just to Bai Yufeng, Jue yuan, and Li Sou, seems as fictitious as attributing soooooo many other things to Bodhidharma.
    they're said to have got most all those material from the library of Shaolin temple and combining them with the material from outside. even in this case, still the number of material attributed to them is much more than believable.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 03-26-2013 at 11:19 AM.

  6. #276
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    Looking through my notes, it says that 18 Luohan is taught in some Taizu Quan lineages.

    Here is a quote from someone's paper that shows this to be true in Cangzhou area:

    流传于沧州太祖拳法之套路,拳术有一路太祖拳,二路太祖拳,十八趟罗汉拳,遛腿架、遛脚式、八打二十式、少 林太祖长拳、行步拳和十二趟弹腿;长器械有太祖棍、三节棍、少林棍、十二连枪、梅花枪、四门大刀、方便铲、 双手带;短器械有梅花刀、梅花双钩、万胜刀、应战刀、青龙剑、二朗剑、双钺;对练套路有对打太祖棍、三节棍 进枪、单刀进枪、大刀进枪、子母锤对打等。
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  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    Sal, attributing sooooooo many styles, Qigong sets, basics. etc, etc, just to Bai Yufeng, Jue yuan, and Li Sou, seems as fictitious as attributing soooooo many other things to Bodhidharma.
    they're said to have got most all those material from the library of Shaolin temple and combining them with the material from outside. even in this case, still the number of material attributed to them is much more than believable.
    Its not really that much, look at the list from that Shaolin Quanbu that was passed on from their time to the 1970s, it shows a LOT of sets, most of them are Luohan, Wu Quan, and Rou Quan material. Not other stuff.
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  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    The original Luohan Shiba Shou is also the 8 section brocade made into 12 sections, by Baiyufeng, which is called the Yi Jin Jing sometimes. It is the 12 section qigong set that is super important as it is the original material that Taoist 13 Postures Quan was developed from and other styles.
    Its documented in Zhang Songxi's line of Taoist Neijia Quan that their material was developed after their founder was impressed by the Shaolin 12 section brocade-Luohan Shiba Shou qigong.
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  9. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    No, not in current form, if you mean "are the sequences of postural movements the same?". If you mean are the postures themselves in there, then yes, but done more proto-typically.
    do you mean there's a 108 posture Rou quan form in those resources, with almost the same postures, but somehow different sequence?

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    do you mean there's a 108 posture Rou quan form in those resources, with almost the same postures, but somehow different sequence?
    Yeah, spread out amongst Taizu Chang Quan sets, Rou Quan sets, Luohan Sets, Hong Quan sets, Pao Quan sets, etc.
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  11. #281
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    I have that book.

    It covers

    Shaolin Tan Tui, Da Luohan Quan (YiLu+), Guanchao Quan, Zhaoyang Quan Er Lu.

    Not all 3 Zhaoyang sets, just part 2, though 3 exist + GuanChao which is often called zhaoyang.


    So if the earliest Luohan is 18 moves, then it should be Luohan 18 Shi (instead of shou) as the oldest form. Mine is called 18 shi also. Maybe this is something older than Luohan quan... It does have a look.

    LFJ managed to find the poem of it with the extended names, it is very interesting, i don't quite get all the mythological references;

    轩辕跨虎征蚩尤,仙人指路莫发愁。
    回头望月龙摆尾,童子拜佛把路修。
    梅广献花扭头看,鸿雁展翅知春秋。
    猿猴摘桃来献果,魁星点元占鳌头。
    高祖剑斩百帝子,王祥卧冰将鱼求。
    燕子汲取长江水,鲤鱼翻身跳龙楼。
    金刚罗汉斗猛虎,仙鹤晾翅望九洲。
    悟空束身水帘洞,白蛇吐信神鬼忧。
    天师神弹射天狗,紧那武姿传千秋。

    (Thanks to LFJ)

    If we could cross reference some of these names in relation to techniques and mythology we may be able to date the form. This poem would not be easy to rewrite idly.

  12. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Yeah, spread out amongst Taizu Chang Quan sets, Rou Quan sets, Luohan Sets, Hong Quan sets, Pao Quan sets, etc.
    great. but, if i'm not wrong, there's no direct mention of such a long Rou quan form made by Huike, etc...? is there?

    if so, the possibility still remains that "Zhu Tianxi can be the one who has constructed that long form as a mixture a those postures gotten from those sets!"

  13. #283
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    Grab a copy of this old Shaolin manual, it documents the taizu Chang Quan but it has a ton of great information. It's a famous book by Liang Yi Quan:

    https://www.google.com/search?source....pdf&oq=&gs_l=
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 03-26-2013 at 01:21 PM.
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  14. #284
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    Analysis;

    轩辕跨虎征蚩尤 - Xuan Yuan Kua Hu Zheng Chi You

    'The yellow emperor rides a tiger to search for the master of blacksmiths'

    仙人指路莫发愁 - Xian Ren Zhi Lu Mo Fa Chou

    'An immortal points the way, there is no need to doubt him'

    回头望月龙摆尾 - Hui Tou Wang Yue Long Bai Wei

    'He travels the extremities of the Earth in his search'

    童子拜佛把路修 - Tong Zi Bai Fo Ba Lu Xiu

    'He prays to buddha to cultivate the road'

    梅广献花扭头看 - Mei Guang Xian Hua Niu Tou Kan

    'He looks around and sees flowers of spring'

    鸿雁展翅知春秋 - Hong Yan Zhan Chi Zhi Chun Qiu

    'A wild goose spreads his wings to signify the passing of summer'

    猿猴摘桃来献果 - Yuan Hou Zhai Tao Lai Xian Guo

    'Monkeys pick the autumn fruit'

    魁星点元占鳌头 - Kui Xing Dian Yuan Zhan Ao Tou

    'The star prince stands upon the turtles head, the Emperor is become the best in his field'

    高祖剑斩百帝子 - Gao Zu Jian Zhan Bai Di Zi

    'just as Gao Zu beheads a hundred rivals'

    王祥卧冰将鱼求 - Wang Xiang Wo Bing Jiang Yu Qiu

    'just as Wang Xiang lies on the ice to prey for a carp to feed his mother'

    燕子汲取长江水 - Yan Zi Ji Qu Chang Jiang Shui

    'just as A swallow drinks from the fast flowing yangtze river'

    鲤鱼翻身跳龙楼 - Li Yu Fan Shen Tiao Long Lou

    'just as A carp jumps over the dragon gate to become a dragon'

    金刚罗汉斗猛虎 - Jing Gang Luo Han Dou Meng Hu

    'And A Vajra Saint struggles with a fierce tiger, so the emperor has overcome his obstacles'

    仙鹤晾翅望九洲 - Xian He Liang Che Wang Jiu Zhou

    'An immortal crane is born and glides across the world'

    悟空束身水帘洞 - Wu Kong Shu Shen Shui Lian Dong

    'The monkey king binds himself in the water curtain cave'

    白蛇吐信神鬼忧 - Bai Shi Tu Xin Shen Gui You

    'The white snake speaks a truth that worries gods and ghosts'

    天师神弹射天狗 - Tian Shi Shen Tan Shi Tian Gou

    'The Celestial Master expels the demons'

    紧那武姿传千秋 - Jin Na Wu Zi Chuan Qian Qiu

    'JinNa's Warlike spirit will transmit for 1000 years'


    This is my translation of the Luohan Poem. It is not just random lines it is a narrative. All of them are references to early legends, thouhg I cannot fathom them all. The above is a trnaslation, not literal, but taking into account as much as I can in a short time, the actual meaning of the poem.

    It appears to be about the Yellow emperors quest for immortality and the many obstacles he must overcome and the long time it takes him, finally to join others who have attained this power.


    It is an analogy of training in Gong Fu and all the people mentioned have overcome obstacles.

    I am sure with more time I can do a better job. SOme of my transaltions may seem strange, but I am trying to express the meaning of the reference as opposed to the literal words.

  15. #285
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    The Poem LFJ found on some DengFeng website, it is on a few places.

    It is in the book by LZH and WangXiGan. The unusual Luohan 18 shou from Xi Yuan pai.

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