Page 4 of 29 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 432

Thread: Luohan Quan

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469
    @LFJ

    Yes! I do mean last year. Lose track of time here. I guess I know who you are too then ;-) Hey, how you doin?

    If you are who I think then I think I showed you the complete version of Tagous luohan quan? I showed Ya Fei. But that was not good, I know a better version now.

    Yeah, after Li Ya Fei taught me the shape of it Deyang Shi spent a few afternoons with me and changed a few bits and told me a bit more about it.

    After another 6 weeks or so he taught the entire school Yi lu. We practiced it all in lines together, but we spent a really long time on it comparitively, and he talked a lot about each stance. I never used to like the look of Yi Lu but after that I appreciate it a lot more than Er lu.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    ᏌᏂᎭᎢ, ᏥᎾ
    Posts
    3,257
    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Shaolin Er Lu Luohan Quan (also known as Refined Luohan Quan) - very hard to find full version on video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZzRcb5SXTY (shortened)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xrEtJjUTI (shortened) version)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0IDQpkzPVc (just first third of set)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnUJhm8O7Q (too fast and much abbreviated)
    the second video here is the (real) xiaoluohanquan. you must have entered that in this group by mistake.

    here is a video by shi dejun of luohanquan erlu, ending at the same place as your first video.
    http://v.ku6.com/show/l_nveCmqYRWmNOvf.html
    Last edited by LFJ; 10-03-2009 at 08:20 AM.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    ᏌᏂᎭᎢ, ᏥᎾ
    Posts
    3,257
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    If you are who I think then I think I showed you the complete version of Tagous luohan quan? I showed Ya Fei. But that was not good, I know a better version now.
    thats the longer daluohanquan set, whereas master deyang's is laojia luohanquan, now called xiaoluohanquan of 36 postures. two different sets.

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    ᏌᏂᎭᎢ, ᏥᎾ
    Posts
    3,257
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Luohan Quan,

    Everyones favourite Shaolin sub style.

    Here is a video, please watch it;

    http://www.56.com/u65/v_MjY0Njg4NzA.html

    So this must be Luohan quan from another place... Everyone I have asked Knows the video, they have all seen it before, but no one knows the man. Some people have suggested that it is Luohan from Wu Tai Mountain. I realise the voiceover is in Cantonese, never the less this style is certainly from northern china.

    Can anyone help me? Does anyone know where this quan is from, who this guy is or anything at all about green monk robes?
    saw another video of it with this in the description.

    十八罗汉手,本为古老拳种陕西红拳类,传到明末清初时,只得九势(式)或十势,可分左右演练。到了福建,变 成了罗汉拳(后称达尊拳)的基本功夫。后衍生出大、小罗汉拳。到了广东,融会于洪拳之中,称佛家拳或佛掌, 由于起式为左右穿花,故花拳之名较为流行。

    18 luohan shou (十八罗汉手), an ancient boxing type of shaanxi hongquan (陕西红拳).

    also related to fujian luohanquan (福建罗汉拳), later called dazunquan (达尊拳), and in guangdong blended with hongquan (洪拳, canto: hungkyun) into fojiaquan (佛家拳, canto: fatgakyun) also called "buddha palm"- fozhang (佛掌, canto: fatjeung).
    Last edited by LFJ; 10-03-2009 at 09:22 AM.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469
    @LFJ

    Awesome,

    Thank you very much!

    Shaanxi hong quan, That means it is probably as I initially thought from Wu Tai shan. There are many different styles there, but it is relatively unexploited. I can't go there just yet, and soon it will be too cold.

    I've been meaning to go back there for a long time, I'll go next spring and see if I can find this style.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Austin, Tx
    Posts
    375
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    the second video here is the (real) xiaoluohanquan. you must have entered that in this group by mistake.

    here is a video by shi dejun of luohanquan erlu, ending at the same place as your first video.
    http://v.ku6.com/show/l_nveCmqYRWmNOvf.html
    I learned this one (the second one) as Xiao Luohan quan as well.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    ᏌᏂᎭᎢ, ᏥᎾ
    Posts
    3,257
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Shaanxi hong quan, That means it is probably as I initially thought from Wu Tai shan. There are many different styles there, but it is relatively unexploited. I can't go there just yet, and soon it will be too cold.

    I've been meaning to go back there for a long time, I'll go next spring and see if I can find this style.
    well, lets not get too hasty just yet.

    i found the chinese wikipedia page on it: http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/十八罗汉手

    its exactly what was pasted into the description of that luohanquan video. i cant confirm that it actually has anything to do with that particular set, but it does seem to have some similarities to shaanxi hongquan.

    however, before you run off to wutaishan, isnt that in shanxi 山西 province, rather than shaanxi 陕西?

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    ᏌᏂᎭᎢ, ᏥᎾ
    Posts
    3,257
    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Luohan Quan Yi Lu taught by Shi Degen - First 60 of the 85 postures:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3q4vhzr58
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO3k55h_HLA (same form, black background)

    ............

    Shaolin (real) Xiao Luohan Quan:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sKH-zLYjEg (only the first 40 postures of 65, first 50 movements of 85)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ppmJVwuOM0 (also shortened)
    why do you group these two separately with different names?

    these are exactly the same set. especially the second xiaoluohanquan video posted. it is exactly the same as the luohanquan yilu set performed by zhang shijie, and even says it is the first road in a series of 18, taught by ven. shi degen.

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469
    @LFJ

    Yes, I was thinking of ShanXi not Shaanxi. I am personally most leaning towards this style being from wutai shan.

    shaanxi... not as famous for kung fu.

    I'll go to wutai anyway, hears they have some interesting bits of shaolin kung fu in the temples there.

    But the search continues. I'll see what I can find out about shaanxi hong quan.


    @Shaolin1

    The form you learned is the third of three common luohan quans. I've never seen it called xiao luohan, but these names don't really matter. In the books by Tagou which outline all 3 major versions of luohan quan, this is referred to as er lo luohan or refined luohan. THe original form stops at the contemplation of buddha stance (sword fingers poining to temples) then does tong bei quans end kicking sequence (you all know the one). A newer version has some extra moves added to extend the form to competition length. THis is actually by far the most taught luohan quan. If you ask to learn luohan quan most schools only practice this version.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    ᏌᏂᎭᎢ, ᏥᎾ
    Posts
    3,257
    sha0lin1 and i were talking about a different set being mixed in with the videos of the refined luohanquan. it was the one commonly called daluohanquan, which is apparently the real xiaoluohanquan instead.

    the great firewall of china has prevented you from following along on youtube.

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Fremont, CA, U.S.A.
    Posts
    44,221

    Ok, here are those lyrics for 18 lohan

    They're in pinyin, so they're almost useless unless you have a similar set. We published the Chinese characters in the original article, but it would take me days to plug all those in (and the issue is so old that we don't have that file as text anymore). If you want the characters, you'll have to pick up the back issue. It's Luo Han Shi Ba Shou - 18 Hands Shaolin Form: The Complete Shaolin Form and its Sanda and Qinna applications in our 1998 Oct/Nov issue.

    1. Fu zi gong shou
    2. Huai zhong bao yuei (fan zhang)
    3. Bai hu xi lian
    4. Ni lib a cong
    5. Sahng bu tui dao qiang
    6. Shang bu liang shou]
    7. Ying mian bei zhang (bang zhang)
    8. Shuang shou zha qian jin (you beng zhou)
    9. Beng zhou lu shi (zhou beng zhou)
    10. Jie shou kan zhang
    11. Xian ren zhai qie
    12. Meng hu zhuang shen
    13. Puo xin zhou
    14. Zhuan sehn beng zhou
    15. Zhuan shen jin jiao jian
    16. Xiao hou qiang gua
    17. Lao hu gui shan
    18. Xian ren gui dong
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Whippany NJ, USA
    Posts
    1,550
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @ Sal

    Wow, some list of videos... I can't see them unfortunately as it is banned in china, however from your comments I recognise a lot of the videos.

    Firstly we can't be too pedantic about the forms, even two teachers from the same school will perform a form quite differently.

    There are two major distinct forms. THere are many many versions of each, but the vast mojority fit into one of these two categories.

    1. The one that starts with two palms crossing at the dantian- sparrow hawk turns its body - wind through the ears - cut palm in rest stance. In the middle it has whirlwind kick to rest stance praise buddha, after which it has two pu bu kicks, one to each side then it jump kicks into 'a gnarled tree with twisted roots' the classic luohan posture.

    This form is the one listed above, it is the 'da luohan' in Tagous books and, as different as may be, it IS the one taught by Degen Da Shi. Degen died in 1970. This form I know is the one he taught Yang Gui Wu, I assume (because i have not met him in person) it is the one taught to Zhu Tian Xi (assume because my master told me it was and because i didn't get a chance to look inside but I have seen the cover of the book tian xi wrote, he uses 'meng hu chu dong' this posture does not exist in the other luohan quan set). Different as the one in Tagous books, the one listed and the one Degen practiced are... They at least contain the above mentioned postures in common. We can assume they come from one form originally.

    This is also the same form practiced by Deyang under the name xiao luohan. Deyangs is about the least correct version. I know for a fact neither his master Sufa nor his master Suxi had this form, and i have never seen anyone else do it like this so i assume he changed some of the moves himself.

    The number of moves in this form vary between 36 (deyangs) about 85 (tagous). The book by shi yong wen lists 126 moves (although some intermediate postures are included).

    In 9 form luohan this is er lo (to first zuo shan) and san lo.

    2. The form practiced by Zhang shi jie (white robes on black background, you know the video). This form is more common in Deng Feng. In Tagous books this is the form referred to as 'Xiao Luohan'. Without actually knowing tagous form you might find this hard to see, however it is indeed the same form. Ofcourse a lot of moves are different and zhang shi jie has a lot extra shou fa, but it is basically the same sequence of the same moves. (some xu bu's changed to gong bu's and vice versa, a head but instead of an elbow, but roughly the same). This form does not actually have the Luohan quan character, apart form two moves (luohan shui jiao and Tiger shakes his fur).

    In 9 form luohan quan this is yi lo luohan.

    I do know Zhu Tian Xi spent some time teaching at Zhang Shi Jie's school (hui guang Wu xiao, XIn Zheng), I dont know if Zhang shi jie is ZHu tian xis student.

    THe video zhang shi jie made is about 15 years old now.

    3. There is a third common luohan quan. 'refined luohan' or er lo luohan in tagous books. This is very common in the big schools in dengfeng, it is often used for competition. Originally the form ended with the 'contemplation of buddha' stance (sword fingers pointed to the temple). However since most competitions require 1min20 second forms and this fell slightly short they added a few moves, so it has a few moves form Pao quan slapped on the end. THis form is not an old form. It is luohan quan made up of some of remaining fragments of luohan not contained in the two forms i named above. It is not really worth learning. It contains NO symmetry. You can tell how well constructed a form is from its subtle poetic symmetry. In modern forms they try to make every stance different to make it look cool, however this loses the character of the form, and loses the strategy hidden within. Its a modern form, don't bother.


    I dont know if Degen knew both of these forms (1 and 2) (he knew a lot and taught different things to different people). But I do Know for a fact that the form by Shi Yong Wen is the same as the form taught to Yang Gui Wu.... I read an article by Zhu tian xi that was about how he travelled to meet Degens other students. They practiced forms together including luohan so I assume Zhu Tian Xi used the same form. It is of course possible that Zhu tian xi may have learned both 1 and 2 as above.

    In my opinion 1 is the best luohan quan. 2 has perghaps more useful applications but 1 has more character. And it has the twisted roots stance which is awesome.

    The book by shi yong wen is just called 'Shao lin si luo han quan' . On the first page is an old photo of Shi De Gen.

    永文-YongWen
    Yes, I have that book, it is reissued by Zhu Tien Xi. Same drawings.
    Well, Zhang shi jie's video follows the book exactly, no changes other than that it ends much sooner.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Whippany NJ, USA
    Posts
    1,550
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    its actually a different set. sal linked to the videos of that "daluohanquan". the one master deyang does is also called "old frame", laojia luohanquan of 36 postures total. it is practiced in ven. suxi's lineage as well as others, such as through ven. suyun, whom master deyang also received training under.

    although ven. suyun's disciples, such as masters deding and decheng do some postures with slight differences. but these are the laojia luohanquan, not the longer set, but it is like a shorter version of that, so they share similar layout and sequences.

    in fact, according to master deyang, first there were the neigong sets. from luohan shibashou came the 36 posture luohan boxing set, which today is called "xiaoluohan" or "laojia luohan". then there came six roads of "daluohanquan", and the enormous system of shaolin luohanquan thus evolved, complete with weapon sets as well.
    I did research on this set and also Russbo did as well, and the Laojia set is indeed different and also one of the very early sets, before the Daluohan Quan material.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Whippany NJ, USA
    Posts
    1,550
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    not sure that this is "shi deyang's" version. i've seen that master deru also teaches the set this way, with the postures all in the same order. there is only a small difference with stepping forward instead of backward or elbowing in a slightly different direction.

    so, i'm not sure how it became so different from the arrangement of the set in the encyclopedia, but master deyang is not the only one to do it this way. (deru is also under ven. suxi)
    I learned this before I had the Shaolin Encyclopedia and it was done exactly like in Deqian's Encyclopedia. So, I was happy to see that. Then when I saw Deyang's version i was very confused. Someone decided to change it, I don't know why.

    Well, the abbott is researching all the forms with the countryside practitioners (the old guys) and releasing books on the definitive versions. I have been getting most of them as they come out. His series is called A Compendium of Shaolin Quan

    Also, a huge 2 volume work, thousands of pages, a Compendium of Shaolin Folk Boxing, is just out by one of the Liu brothers of Dengfeng that researched hundreds of the forms and compared how the Shaolin monks do the forms to the way the forms are done by the old folk Henan countryside guys.

    Together these two efforts are revealing the original way the forms were done.

    The abbott has a book on San Lu Luohan Quan that is completely ancient looking and far from today's junk.
    His Xiao and Da Hong Quan were great, many corrections were made in parts that I have always questioned why. I think that they had found someone in Shaanxi that was doing the forms that oldest way and they learned from there.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Whippany NJ, USA
    Posts
    1,550
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @LFJ

    Hmm, ok.

    The Encyclopedia is not the ultimate source of shaolin, it contains a lot of misinformation. It only contains information known by the few people who compiled it. Just because it is printed does not make it all the most authentic shaolin kung fu. If you see the new version (the 2 book version) it even contains updated modern versions of some forms.

    I can tell you a lot about Zhaoyang quan but its not info for an open forum.
    .
    Yeah, the inaccuracy of the Shaolin encyclopedia had prompted the abbot to revise the forms with the folk masters and also for the new huge Shaolin Folk compendium that just came out. See my previous post.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •