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Thread: Luohan Quan

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    the encyclopedia would have been edited by more than one person and cross-referenced for accuracy, at least to name it as the right set. thats kind of what the encyclopedia was for.

    but also, the luohan shibashou yilu set is not only done in that sequence by master deyang, but also by at least master deru and branch schools under him in the u.s.. it has slight technical differences but the same sequence, and they are both under ven. suxi.

    of interest, how were you taught that mizong set with all the xubus? its quite a bit different from the videos he put out.

    when were you at the school, and how much chinese do you speak?
    Well, its not done that way by the folk traditions and it is not done that way by old teachers here in US neither.

    The changes mess up the integrity of the form, as far as I am concerned.

    The secret to this form is that it is very much like Ba Gua Zhuang and doing the form the way it is done in Shaolin Encylcopedia (in my opinion the 18 Hands sets are the few accurate things in it) and by these others it follows with the movements in Ba Gua Zhuang sets pretty exactly.
    it makes total sense to do movements that way, Deyang's video version destroys the flow and the applications. there are neck breaking applications that can't be done with the changes.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    why do you group these two separately with different names?

    these are exactly the same set. especially the second xiaoluohanquan video posted. it is exactly the same as the luohanquan yilu set performed by zhang shijie, and even says it is the first road in a series of 18, taught by ven. shi degen.
    Hmm, left out a transition sentence saying that Shi degen's Yi Lu is sometimes called Xiao Luohan Quan.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @LFJ

    Yes, I was thinking of ShanXi not Shaanxi. I am personally most leaning towards this style being from wutai shan.

    shaanxi... not as famous for kung fu.

    I'll go to wutai anyway, hears they have some interesting bits of shaolin kung fu in the temples there.

    But the search continues. I'll see what I can find out about shaanxi hong quan.


    @Shaolin1

    The form you learned is the third of three common luohan quans. I've never seen it called xiao luohan, but these names don't really matter. In the books by Tagou which outline all 3 major versions of luohan quan, this is referred to as er lo luohan or refined luohan. THe original form stops at the contemplation of buddha stance (sword fingers poining to temples) then does tong bei quans end kicking sequence (you all know the one). A newer version has some extra moves added to extend the form to competition length. THis is actually by far the most taught luohan quan. If you ask to learn luohan quan most schools only practice this version.
    SHAANXI is where Shaolin Hong Quan originated, at least the version that reached Shaolin via Li Sou.

    Their KF is one of the most difficult to practice, they also preserved a lot of old Shaolin sets that Shaolin later lost, especially all the Monkey and Monkey Staff sets.

    Shaanxi was considered the gateway into China and from where most long fist originates.

    (not counting the yellow river long first from the Henan Da Hong Quan - Big Swan or Vast Fist)

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    They're in pinyin, so they're almost useless unless you have a similar set. We published the Chinese characters in the original article, but it would take me days to plug all those in (and the issue is so old that we don't have that file as text anymore). If you want the characters, you'll have to pick up the back issue. It's Luo Han Shi Ba Shou - 18 Hands Shaolin Form: The Complete Shaolin Form and its Sanda and Qinna applications in our 1998 Oct/Nov issue.

    1. Fu zi gong shou
    2. Huai zhong bao yuei (fan zhang)
    3. Bai hu xi lian
    4. Ni lib a cong
    5. Sahng bu tui dao qiang
    6. Shang bu liang shou]
    7. Ying mian bei zhang (bang zhang)
    8. Shuang shou zha qian jin (you beng zhou)
    9. Beng zhou lu shi (zhou beng zhou)
    10. Jie shou kan zhang
    11. Xian ren zhai qie
    12. Meng hu zhuang shen
    13. Puo xin zhou
    14. Zhuan sehn beng zhou
    15. Zhuan shen jin jiao jian
    16. Xiao hou qiang gua
    17. Lao hu gui shan
    18. Xian ren gui dong
    thanks. i think I posted all the english and pinyin names for all 8 of the Shaolin 18 Hands sets, I think I posted it a few years ago, it must be in the archives.
    If I find it on my hard drive I will post it again.

  5. #65
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    @sal

    Cool, do you have any info on these new books?

    Liu brothers, you mean Tagou?

    I will have to get hold of these new books. You say the ones by the Abbot? are they the shaolin ones that would be on sale inside the new shaolin gift shop (inside the temple), the ones in little yellow books?

    Do you have any more info? If so I will have to make a trip to dengfeng in the next week to pick some up.

    By the way, I think you are correct about Zhang shi Jie's luohan quan being the one Zhu tian xi practices. I tried to order the book but it is hong kong published, they don't actually sell it in china :-( However I saw some video of his students doing 4 different luohan quans. The other luohan quans contained a lot of movements from Pao quan. I can only assume my form is the er lo. It's a delicate subject to question my teacher over (comparing his zhu tian xis forms).

    However something very confusing, the extra luohan quans I saw by Tian xi students were totally different from the 9 forms of Luohan quan by Liu Zhen Hai (also a student of Degen). Also I have since seen my teachers version of yi lu luohan. It contains the same moves, but with some extra, but it is in a completely different character and tempo. It looks a lot more like luohan (complete with facial expressions and the Tiger taming posture not found in others). Still the Yi lu and Er lo are the two main Luohan quans but 3 lo and beyond seem utterly inconsistent. I would love to see that new book you said. Could you desribe the opening postures at all?

    Good info, thanks.

  6. #66
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    @Sal

    On the books any ISBN numbers you have for any current books would be really useful, then I could order them here. (if they have them, I know the small shaolin books don't generally).

    Thanks

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Oh yeah,

    About the 'lao jia' luohan quan that Deyang does....

    I still can't accept that this is an older version....All my experience in forms points to this being an abbreviation. Can anyone cite any info pertaining to this form (other than because Deyang Shi told you so) THat leads you to beleive it is an older version?
    I think it is safe to say that it is merely one of the oldest abbreviations.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @Sal

    On the books any ISBN numbers you have for any current books would be really useful, then I could order them here. (if they have them, I know the small shaolin books don't generally).

    Thanks
    Compendium of Traditional Shaolin style martal arts:
    Title: 伝統少林武術套路集成(上下)
    Price: 43200 (~US$411.43) This exchange rate is incorrect, it is much cheaper than this!
    Product ID.: CTSL292233
    Author: 劉海超 - Liú Hǎi Chāo
    Publisher: 河南人民出版
    Cover: 精装
    Size: 16開
    Pages: 2046
    Date: 2008年11月
    ISBN: 7215062600
    ISBN13: 9787215062603

    A link to Shaolin Abbot Shi Yong Xin's books:

    http://www.frelax.com/cgilocal/enite...&id=ELRQ261619
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-12-2009 at 10:16 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @sal

    Cool, do you have any info on these new books?

    Liu brothers, you mean Tagou?

    I will have to get hold of these new books. You say the ones by the Abbot? are they the shaolin ones that would be on sale inside the new shaolin gift shop (inside the temple), the ones in little yellow books?

    Do you have any more info? If so I will have to make a trip to dengfeng in the next week to pick some up.

    By the way, I think you are correct about Zhang shi Jie's luohan quan being the one Zhu tian xi practices. I tried to order the book but it is hong kong published, they don't actually sell it in china :-( However I saw some video of his students doing 4 different luohan quans. The other luohan quans contained a lot of movements from Pao quan. I can only assume my form is the er lo. It's a delicate subject to question my teacher over (comparing his zhu tian xis forms).

    However something very confusing, the extra luohan quans I saw by Tian xi students were totally different from the 9 forms of Luohan quan by Liu Zhen Hai (also a student of Degen). Also I have since seen my teachers version of yi lu luohan. It contains the same moves, but with some extra, but it is in a completely different character and tempo. It looks a lot more like luohan (complete with facial expressions and the Tiger taming posture not found in others). Still the Yi lu and Er lo are the two main Luohan quans but 3 lo and beyond seem utterly inconsistent. I would love to see that new book you said. Could you desribe the opening postures at all?

    Good info, thanks.
    Liu Hai Chao wrote the 2000+ page compendium.

    Abbot Shi Yong Xin's books are the yellow ones, with his photo on the cover, all the covers are the same, just the titles are different and the thickness of the pages.

    YesAsia.com has all three of Zhu Tian Xi's books. The Shi De Gen Luohan book is identical to the original published version that came out decades ago. They only added some photos at the end of Zhu Tian Xi doing postures.
    If you get a hold of this book then you will have the complete 85 posture Yi Lu set.

    Who the heck knows what all these Er Lu sets are.

    I've been told that the 9 Luohan forms by Liu Zhen Hai are rather modernly created, except for the first set of the 9.

    Shi Yong Xin's book on San Lu Luohan Quan is very interesting, it is unlike any other Luohan set I have seen. it is not an abbreviation of another set or amalgamation. It is supposed to be a form that is practiced in the countryside by the people that do Rou Quan as well.
    Take a look at it in the Shaolin gift shop and you tell me what you think.

    The original Luohan sets developed by Monk Jue Yuan (with Bai Yu feng and Li sou) were developed out of their experiments developing their new Wu Quan style. I would think that these sets would indeed show some Pao Quan in them, based on the fact that Pao Quan sets were originally part of the Hong Quan system, they are Hong Quan sets, they were separate and called Pao Quan much later. But during the 1400-1500s, they were all part of the Hong Quan system that Li Sou practiced.

  10. #70
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    Hey Sal,

    Thanks very much for the ISBN,

    I ordered the book by Liu Hai Chao today at the nearest bookstore. It is expensive, but it sounds good. I should get it within the week.

    Sad as it may sound to some but I feel like a 7 Y.o kid a week before christmas, I will be very excited to see this book and read what I can of it!

    As to the books in Shaolin, it is about 3 hours from here, I will go there when i get a free day (and good weather). I should visit this year anyway.

    Oh and I did hear that one of the older sequences of luohan quan was 'Hushanzi men Luohan 18 shou' From the hushanzi school. I picked up this form a few years ago but didn't pay it much attention at the time. Don't really remember it now. It is extremely unremarkable. Literally xu bu block gong bu punch, xu bu block gong bu punch. Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate this kind of form. Shaolin Xin Yi is also a little like this, except it has good symmetry. Hushanzi luohan is very boring. Of course i may have learned a bad version, I have no way of knowing.

    Don't know much about Hushanzi men.... anyone?
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 10-11-2009 at 10:36 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Hey Sal,

    Thanks very much for the ISBN,

    I ordered the book by Liu Hai Chao today at the nearest bookstore. It is expensive, but it sounds good. I should get it within the week.

    Sad as it may sound to some but I feel like a 7 Y.o kid a week before christmas, I will be very excited to see this book and read what I can of it!

    As to the books in Shaolin, it is about 3 hours from here, I will go there when i get a free day (and good weather). I should visit this year anyway.

    Oh and I did hear that one of the older sequences of luohan quan was 'Hushanzi men Luohan 18 shou' From the hushanzi school. I picked up this form a few years ago but didn't pay it much attention at the time. Don't really remember it now. It is extremely unremarkable. Literally xu bu block gong bu punch, xu bu block gong bu punch. Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate this kind of form. Shaolin Xin Yi is also a little like this, except it has good symmetry. Hushanzi luohan is very boring. Of course i may have learned a bad version, I have no way of knowing.

    Don't know much about Hushanzi men.... anyone?
    Hu Shan Zi Men 18 hands Arhat form ? that? I have never heard that this is the oldest Luohan Quan set.
    Well, being that Luohan Quan was NOT called Luohan Quan when it first originated, that is possible then.
    We know that the 18 Shou sets are the oldest sets, existing before Luohan Quan.
    18 Shou are from Ming dynasty. Luohan Quan's material comes from then, but the sets I think were developed during the Qing dynasty. I think the style (as derived from Shaolin Wu Quan of Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan and Li Sou) movements and postures were free form and then various people developed them into specific sets.
    Hence, Shi Degen's Luohan Quan is different from other lineages.

    The Hu Shan Zi Men 18 hands Arhat form is found on page 248 of the new version of the Shaolin Encyclopedia. it is also found in the past two versions (the old 2 volume and the old 4 volume versions).
    I have the originally Republic era booklet of this form.
    I have always thought this form to be strange and boring and nonsensical.
    But, it is not so elementary as you state, what you describe is the same as the Horse Stance Luohan Quan set, which I have documentation for, and it is REALLY boring, I can't bother doing it again after I learned it. Makes me fall asleep, I just use the movements when stretching and so on.

    But the Hu Shan Zi Men 18 hands Arhat form looks like some kind of weird ballroom dancing set! Very rounded and weird.
    Anyone with one of the versions of the Shaolin Encyclopedia take a look at it and see for yourself.

    What have you read that talks about this form's history? How is it the oldest?
    I'd like to know more about this.
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-12-2009 at 10:33 AM.

  12. #72
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    Oh, Plus I did confirm that my Hushanzi men Luohan quan was indeed the same as YongWen Da Shi practices.

  13. #73
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    I revised my video list and corrected some things, see link:
    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...6&postcount=30


    Also, I just got the 2 volume 2,046 page Shaolin Compendium by Liu Zhen Hai and it turned out to be different than what I was told it was.
    It is a revised version of the 5 Tagou school books. The forms have been redrawn with a Shaolin monk instead of a goofy guy in a geri karate uniform.
    There has been further research done by Liu Zhen Hai by conferring with his father and others on the movements and postures of the sets.
    So, if you haven't gotten the 5 volume Tagou books, these are all 5 in one fat 2 volume version, with all the corrections made to the sets. Also, the book is both in English and Chinese, with the English appearing much improved (unless that is my imagination, since I haven't read the 5 Tagou books in years).
    There is a nice forward by Shi Suxi and by Shi Song Xin.

    One thing that disturbs me is that the forms are different in this lineage than what I have seen in my own research.

    What I really like is the series of Shaolin books that Abbot Shi Song Xin is publishing, he is doing much research with many Henan Shaolin folk masters as to the origin of the movements and comparing and contrasting amongst the masters till they reach a consensus of what the original movements were.
    The books are bilingual as well, and the english goes into meticulous detail on each and every movement involved for each postures. I ordered the rest of the set the other day and I will be up to date and looking forward to the Abbot's publication of more rountines books.

    So far there is available:

    Rou Quan yi lu (36 postures set)
    Rou Quan er lu
    Xiao Hong
    Da Hong Quan sets 1-3
    Pao Quan
    Luohan San Lu
    Mei Hua Quan
    Chang Pu Xin Yi Men
    Xiao Tong Bi
    Tong Bi yi lu

    I highly recommend these books, they are not holding back on the information and as far as I know, they are not marking the forms to make them incorrect.
    There seems to be a genuine effort going on to research and preserve the original movements for these routines.
    I heard that over 300 routines are being reviewed and documented.

    This was done in response to complaints by scholars and researchers that the Shaolin Encyclopedia and the Tagou books all have errors in the routines shown.

  14. #74
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    Went to Shaolin Si today.

    I went specifically to the shop to get the yellow books.

    I went straight to the 'San lu luohan quan' that Sal was talking about.

    WOW!! This is literally the best shaolin form ever. Most people who look at it may see a boring form, but for me this set is literally the quintessence of shaolin fist. It was perfect. It has all the standard moves (xie xing, dan bian, qi xing, cloud hands, xuan feng jiao*2, tiger comes out of cave plus many more) and it even has the full lying down luohan shui jiao..... twice.

    I was so excited looking at this luohan quan that I asked the shopkeeper where one could find shi yan zhuang (guy in the pictures). To my surprise she said he was there right now, and she called him on the phone! So I went ot the shaolin Cafe and had tea with him and long story short he said I could come along any time and study Sanlu luohan quan. As soon as i have some free time I will go straight there.

    Literally the best luohan quan ever. It is NOT from 18 luohan system as the forms we have been talking about above, but it fits in perfectly with tongbi, pao quan, xiao hong, da hong, changhuxinyimen and the other great shaolin forms.


    Also got the Changhuxinyimen book. COmpletely different to Tagous, it uses hammers instead of fists, fits in with the other forms much better. Plus the xiao tongbi (yi lu tongbi) is amazing. Great books.

    So excited to learn this luohan quan!!!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Went to Shaolin Si today.

    I went specifically to the shop to get the yellow books.

    I went straight to the 'San lu luohan quan' that Sal was talking about.

    WOW!! This is literally the best shaolin form ever. Most people who look at it may see a boring form, but for me this set is literally the quintessence of shaolin fist. It was perfect. It has all the standard moves (xie xing, dan bian, qi xing, cloud hands, xuan feng jiao*2, tiger comes out of cave plus many more) and it even has the full lying down luohan shui jiao..... twice.

    I was so excited looking at this luohan quan that I asked the shopkeeper where one could find shi yan zhuang (guy in the pictures). To my surprise she said he was there right now, and she called him on the phone! So I went ot the shaolin Cafe and had tea with him and long story short he said I could come along any time and study Sanlu luohan quan. As soon as i have some free time I will go straight there.

    Literally the best luohan quan ever. It is NOT from 18 luohan system as the forms we have been talking about above, but it fits in perfectly with tongbi, pao quan, xiao hong, da hong, changhuxinyimen and the other great shaolin forms.


    Also got the Changhuxinyimen book. COmpletely different to Tagous, it uses hammers instead of fists, fits in with the other forms much better. Plus the xiao tongbi (yi lu tongbi) is amazing. Great books.

    So excited to learn this luohan quan!!!
    Wow, that's very exciting!

    Can you find out the history of this San Lu Luohan Quan set?

    Where does it come from? Where does it fit in with the rest of the Luohan Quan sets?
    Did it come from Shi Degen or from Miao? Or elsewhere?

    (i'm going to do a thread on the Xin Yi related sets once I get my bearings on them)

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