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Thread: Does all northern mantis come from 7 star?

  1. #1
    cha kuen Guest

    Does all northern mantis come from 7 star?

    Does all northern mantis come from 7 star? Didn't wong long create Bong Bo along with a few san sau techniques that were just " prayiing mantis?"

  2. #2
    LawClansman Guest
    Cha Kuen,

    The original system was just Praying Mantis as conceived by Wong Long. It is believed that there were 4 forms with Bung Bo being the first. There is debate about the others.
    7 star is a branch of the mantis style not the original system. Tai Chi mantis, 8 step mantis, spring board mantis, jade ring mantis, plum blossom mantis and others have their own history and lineage. But there have been some extensive borrowing / exchanging of forms and techniques between mantis styles for many years.

    Sifu Carl

  3. #3
    8stepsifu Guest
    From what I understand is that from Wong Long came Plumb Flower and 7 Star. 8 Step came from Plumb Flower and 6 Harmonies is a blend of the two with other additions. I don't have anything concrete on the others. I think 7 Star is supposed to be more like Wong Long's original than the others. Not that any of it matters. They are all good and based on excellent theory and have exceptional techniques.

  4. #4
    Oso Guest
    Sifu Carl,
    I had read somewhere that there were
    3 forms (not trying to contradict) attributed
    to Wong Long. I'm new to the 7* scene having
    studied in a school that had some secret door
    mantis mixed with lung shou pai and I've been
    trying to research the secret door, with little luck. So, I've been reading everything
    I can on the net and thought that until I could move closer to a 7* Sifu I would try
    and work with available videos and books.
    I had a thought that if I studied the 3 (or 4) forms attributed to Wong Long and
    compared/contrasted how current sifus/shifus
    are playing them then some sort of understanding would occur.
    So, I have Sifu Funk's Bung Bo and will shortly get Alex Co's and Lee Kam Wing's
    Bung Bo tapes.

    Comments, laughter, advice all appreciated. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    Sorry for the rambling post.
    Matt Melton

  5. #5
    LawClansman Guest
    All history in regard to Mantis in speculative. You can just about say anything and you will be in agreement with some recognized authority that believes that he or she knows what they are talking about. I only offer the particular version that I picked out of the bunch based on my experiences, travels and information from my Sifu and Sigung.

    Know one really knows for sure the facts. How many forms were created is (as I said) in debate. There is only true agreement that Bung Bo was a Wong Long creation. However, even that is speculation.

    Sifu Carl

  6. #6
    word Guest

    You said

    Know one really knows for sure the facts. How many forms were created is (as I said) in debate.

    You should have said

    No one really . . . . . . .. .

  7. #7
    Fu Manchu Guest
    Hi LawClansMan

    How can you determine that the full 110 forms in your mantis system is authenthic when you can't determine the creator for the more basic forms (such as Bung Bo)?

    If you can't, then why learn all 110 forms? Can it be true that the concepts behind mantis grow from 4 forms to 110 forms in 300 years?

  8. #8
    mantis7 Guest
    Hey all

    Word thanks for the grammar lesson.....

    Fu manch Read nathans post on traditional and authentic meanings..
    Since the span has been like 300 plus years do you not think that someone has
    added to the system some where down the
    line.... Does it make it less authentic.. No not really as long as those forms follow the main principles and 12 word key formula..

    Are they traditional...?? But of course our
    sect has passed them down from genration to
    generation....Are they Authenic but of
    course because they follow the tatics taught
    to us..

    Now if your question is are they
    classical and are they the original forms
    created by Wong Long.. I cant say I heard that he created Bung bo.. Which expresses all the key words.. Maybe he just created bung bo and maybe others created the rest of the forms but does it reall matter.. Kuens are only prearranged boxing sets to help you memorise and practice your key well as to help you train speed, strenght of legs, eye hand skill and what ever else the form is designed to help you improve...

    Now you say Bung bo is basic...I would disagree it is easy to perform yes! it is easy to master no!.. can you say honestly you know every nuiance about it I highly doubt it....IT contains all the key words... the true essence of our system.... now if you can master all key words you can master the style and it all begins with bung bo...
    ( opps I let the cat out of the bag LOL))

    NOW why do we practice all 110 forms well it is our way of paying respects to those who had the insight to leave there mark on mantis by creating a form honoring the martial style they enjoyed...
    IF you take 10 men or women and ask them to perform there fighting ability and martial skill and they are from the same style you will get to look through ten diffrent styles..
    Everyman and woman performs and understand there fighting are in there own wy which makes it work for them.. sometimes it may even create a sect or clan ( ie WHF, CCM)
    IF everyone did as everyone else there would be no change or insight or growth,,, So instead of questioning why they created the extra forms you should be asking why not!!!
    Are some these forms useless maybe to you but can they help someone else reach a higher level of skill possibly. OR are these form just a encyclopedia of techniques

  9. #9
    olkat314 Guest
    Legend has it that Wong Long created Praying Mantis in Shaolin. And from what was said before, it seems that from Wong Long's creation there came 7 star, Mui Fa (Plum) and Gwong Bang (Empty Board). However, is there a Shaolin branch that is still practiced by those that claim to be Shaolin disciples?

    I just recently bought a Chinese book that describes Shaolin Praying Mantis, but the moves and forms seem to be different. Could it be that there is a Shaolin form, or that this is just a Chinese government-produced Wushu book?


  10. #10
    LawClansman Guest
    Fu Manchu,

    Of course yu are rite. Dere iz know way 2 no. . eye own lee practiz wot iz hand ed doun inn mi lineiage.

    All kidding aside. There are many Sifu that teach Bung Bo as an advanced set. It is more complicated than many of the other sets and it contains many "mantis claw" movements which are the more coveted techniques in the system.

    I've already taken the time to learn 90 sets as taught in my lineage. So I know whether it WAS worth it or not. IT WAS. Thre are many combinations and expressions of the principles of mantis that I have not seen elsewhere. In addition, there are many more techniques involving the mantis claw. There are even 2 forms TOTALY devoted to the mantis claw.

    But to address the learning of forms, I am a "keeper" of the style of mantis. So I have to learn all there is to know. Everyone must make their own call. You will master the style without so many forms. Wong Hon Fun didn't know 100 plus forms, but I consider him to be a great mantis master.

    As to the question of exactly how many sets there are today as opposed to the original system, EVERYONE practices more sets than created by Wong Long. So where do you draw the line. 10 forms? 28 forms? Can you believe that the Choy Lee Fut system was created in 1836 but has 300 forms? A lot less than 400 years. You can pick out the number YOU are happy with and follow your path. Personally, I have no regrets.

    Sifu Carl

  11. #11
    Fu Manchu Guest

    The discussions focus strongly on whether it is 80 90 or 110 forms. They're all pretty big numbers to me.

    Would you think that it would be more practical to focus on throughly understanding the forms that one knows? Therefore, by picking a few from the beginners, intermediate and advance levels you've covered the concepts behind mantis.

    Let's say you are doing a college degree. You're not expected to read ALL the books or suggested reading material or attend all the lecture. More importantly, it is how you apply the knowledge that's important.

    To say that a mantis student has to go through all the forms in the same order is probably quite a ridgit approach to learning and is probably not the most practical.

  12. #12
    LawClansman Guest
    Fu Manchu,,

    Never let it be said I am not a man of logic. Of course you are right. But somethimes men climb mountains for the simple reason that they are there.

    Sifu Carl

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