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Thread: Wing Chun historical documents?

  1. #16

  2. #17
    I wanted to say "thanks" to folks who helped me out on this thread. Looks like the oldest Wing Chun historical materials only date from about the 1950s or so. That kind of matches up with the idea that Wing Chun really only broke off of Crane Boxing in the late 1940s.

    In any event thanks much.

    take care,
    Brian

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by brianlkennedy View Post
    I wanted to say "thanks" to folks who helped me out on this thread. Looks like the oldest Wing Chun historical materials only date from about the 1950s or so. That kind of matches up with the idea that Wing Chun really only broke off of Crane Boxing in the late 1940s.

    In any event thanks much.

    take care,
    Brian


    Yes, WCK is part of White Crane however the story is more involve and it happen long before 1940.

    Very likely SLT was created in mid to late 1700, around 1770?



    1, Cho family's Yik Kam WCK salutation and stanza is as old as 1850. It matches 1850's Hung Mun, Lee Man Mau, and Shai Hai's small knife union uprising as one could find in Shang Hai today. One could read from from the above Rene's articles.

    2, Yik Kam's WCK SLT training instruction or Kuen Kuit is as old as 1850 or early 1800.



    3, Leong Jan and Yik Kam all exist in 1850. as one could check in Fung family history, and also CLF's history, and Cho family.


    4, White crane itself evolve in late 1700 to early 1800. and we know today based on the Yik Kam WCK SLT training Instruction, the White Crane within WCK is the older version instead of the post 1800 evolution version.

    Also, the way how WCK uses White Crane's Center line concept and Five element hands is different then White Crane due to the involve of Emei 12 Zhuang's strategy. and also Due to Emei 12 Zhuang strategy, SLT was created with Snake body to generate power. and that is different then the hard White Crane of Fang Chi Niang. Thus, SLT doesnt use the San Chin Stance or Sam Cien Po in Fujian like in San Chin set or Ngo Cho kuen.

    SLT using the nature letter two stance, it is an art design to follow the nature of human flow.



    All the above has been known for a few decades.


    ALL of the DATA ABOVE is FREE and OPEN for any one who is strickly doing Research for WCK.

    IE UNIVERSITY and OR ASIAN ART RESEARCH CENTER.


    However, NOT SUPPORTING any individual linage or business associated research which is for their benifit NON public purpose.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 09-26-2010 at 02:40 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_warrior8 View Post
    Lets us see you do better
    I hope that is a friendly request. Brian is a recognized martial historian with two published books on the subject.

  5. #20
    I am sorry, I may not have made myself very clear what I am asking. I am asking for contemporaneous historical documents discussing the history of wing chun. By "contemporaneous historical documents" I mean such things as newspaper articles, training manuals, diaries that were written at the same time as the events they discuss. And they need to be somewhat "credible" (forged martial arts documents are a minor industry in China).

    I appreciate folks posting all those websites----but all they contain is modern day talk about this and that. That is not historical research. And I stand by what I said. And when I say that I am not trying to be a hard ass about the history, I am simply making a good faith effort to see what is out there. I did the same thing for hung gar a few years ago and all I came up with was three Republican Era manuals (from the 1930s). Many/most of the southern Shaolin systems do not have very long, documented, history. That fact is not a mark against them, it is simply a historical fact.

    And I could well be wrong, maybe somebody out there has some cache of historical Wing Chun documents----I just have not seen them.

    take care,
    Brian

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianlkennedy View Post
    I am sorry, I may not have made myself very clear what I am asking. I am asking for contemporaneous historical documents discussing the history of wing chun. By "contemporaneous historical documents" I mean such things as newspaper articles, training manuals, diaries that were written at the same time as the events they discuss. And they need to be somewhat "credible" (forged martial arts documents are a minor industry in China).

    I appreciate folks posting all those websites----but all they contain is modern day talk about this and that. That is not historical research. And I stand by what I said. And when I say that I am not trying to be a hard ass about the history, I am simply making a good faith effort to see what is out there. I did the same thing for hung gar a few years ago and all I came up with was three Republican Era manuals (from the 1930s). Many/most of the southern Shaolin systems do not have very long, documented, history. That fact is not a mark against them, it is simply a historical fact.

    And I could well be wrong, maybe somebody out there has some cache of historical Wing Chun documents----I just have not seen them.

    take care,
    Brian
    I dont think that anyone will ever receive any documents from Leung Jan, and maybe - if they did - will ever allow carbon dating

    although i believe there are documents in the Yuen family from the 20's/30's?

    prior to that, bear in mind the supposed historical culture of tcma's. taught to the lower classes almost exclusively, where education was not necessarily widespread.

    incidentally, does anyone know the oldest documents relating to tcm? just an afterthought...
    When it does happen, it's fast and hard and over quick. Either I'm standing or he's standing. That's Real.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSWCTN1 View Post
    [...]

    incidentally, does anyone know the oldest documents relating to tcm? just an afterthought...
    Documents pertaining to the Lady of Yue (5th cen. BCE) mention various techniques like closing the gap and internal arts.

    The martial historian Stan Henning (who is mentioned above) stated in one of his papers:

    The Han History Bibliographies – completed around 90 A.D.) provide the first broad definition of the martial arts, which constituted one of four categories under the major heading, “Military Writings”. They are defined simply as “skills’ or “techniques” to practice use of the hands and feet, and to facilitate the use of weapons to gain victory through offense or defense. Based on the bibliographical listing, these skills included archery, fencing, boxing, and even an ancient game of football or cuju 蹴鞠 for agility and maneuver in the field. The entry on boxing or shoubo 手搏as it was called, appears to be the earliest clearly identifiable reference to Chinese boxing. Commentaries on the entry differentiate shoubo from wrestling, which was categorized as a military sport as opposed to a combat skill.” Wang Xiangqian 王先謙, ed., Hanshu Buzhu 漢書補注 (Annotated Han History), Changsha, 1901, juan 30, p. 64.
    Last edited by ghostexorcist; 09-27-2010 at 06:56 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSWCTN1 View Post
    incidentally, does anyone know the oldest documents relating to tcm? just an afterthought...
    If you meant Chinese Medicine, it's the Ma Wang Dui texts from about 260BC.

    If you meant CMA, I don't know.
    "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own." -Cicero

  9. #24
    Wing Chun's SLT Related to the following book.

    “The Emei Treasured Lotus Canon”. From Song dynasty;
    This book is currently held in a Beijing museum.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Wing Chun's SLT Related to the following book.

    “The Emei Treasured Lotus Canon”. From Song dynasty;
    This book is currently held in a Beijing museum.
    Can you please elaborate?

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ghostexorcist View Post
    Can you please elaborate?
    Please read my previous posts in details.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianlkennedy View Post
    I am sorry, I may not have made myself very clear what I am asking. I am asking for contemporaneous historical documents discussing the history of wing chun. By "contemporaneous historical documents" I mean such things as newspaper articles, training manuals, diaries that were written at the same time as the events they discuss. And they need to be somewhat "credible" (forged martial arts documents are a minor industry in China).

    I appreciate folks posting all those websites----but all they contain is modern day talk about this and that. That is not historical research. And I stand by what I said. And when I say that I am not trying to be a hard ass about the history, I am simply making a good faith effort to see what is out there. I did the same thing for hung gar a few years ago and all I came up with was three Republican Era manuals (from the 1930s). Many/most of the southern Shaolin systems do not have very long, documented, history. That fact is not a mark against them, it is simply a historical fact.

    And I could well be wrong, maybe somebody out there has some cache of historical Wing Chun documents----I just have not seen them.

    take care,
    Brian


    Asking for information on a discussion board is not historical research, either. What needs to be done is to visit places like the Fung Family in Gu Lao viillage for Leung Jan information, then look at the oral lore of WCK and then assess a link that happened in the 1850's to the Tai Ping Tian Guo, Opera Ban, Emei documents, White Crane documents and the like, as well as a trip to Fujian County records, National records, etc.

    We know its a big project with much funding necessary.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Asking for information on a discussion board is not historical research, either. What needs to be done is to visit places like the Fung Family in Gu Lao viillage for Leung Jan information, then look at the oral lore of WCK and then assess a link that happened in the 1850's to the Tai Ping Tian Guo, Opera Ban, Emei documents, White Crane documents and the like, as well as a trip to Fujian County records, National records, etc.

    We know its a big project with much funding necessary.


    Yup! totally Agree.

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