Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Zhai Yao Yi Lu - Comparisons

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Canton, OH
    Posts
    1,848

    Zhai Yao Yi Lu - Comparisons

    Recently I have been studying the similarities and differences found in the Zhai Yao Yi Lu (Essentials #1) sets of the Taiji Meihua, Babu, and Qixing Tanglangquan systems.

    I thought this might be an interesting discussion for the PM practitioners here.

    Here is my "clear as mud" descriptions of the first few moves of the set in each system:

    Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan

    01. Raise & Separate Hook Hands & Right Front Kick
    02. Qi Lin Step, Right Chopping Block/Left Reverse Punch (awl shaped fist)
    03. Slant Stance, Left Outward Block & Right Sideward Punch
    04. Qi Lin Step, Right Crushing Strike
    05. Right Close Door Kick
    06. Retreat Step to Right Ride Tiger Stance, Right Lift Palm
    07. Retreat Step to Left Ride Tiger Stance, Right Grab/Left Wrist Lock
    08. Step forward to a Right Qi Lin Step, Right Insert Strike
    09. Right Hook Hand, Left Gathering Strike
    10. Right Circle Strike
    11. Right Kick Leg
    12. Lift Left Rear Leg, Right Crushing Strike
    13. Ride Tiger Stance, Right Lift Palms

    Babu Tanglangquan

    01. Left Hill Climbing Stance, Left Grab
    02. Right Hill Climbing Stance, Right & Left Punch
    03. Right Ride Tiger Stance, Left Downward Block
    04. Right Hill Climbing Stance, Right Splitting Punch
    05. Hill Climbing Stance, Right Crushing Strike
    06. Close Door Kick, Double Sweep Hooks
    07. Retreat Step, Right Lift Palm
    08. Left Hill Climbing Stance, Right Grab/Left Wrist Lock
    09. Left Hill Climbing Stance, Right Lifting Fist
    10. Right Hill Climbing Stance, Left Lifting Fist/Right Insert Strike
    11. Left Hill Climbing Stance, Left Grapple/Right Gathering Strike
    12. Left Hill Climbing Stance, Left Hang Block/Right Gathering Strike
    13. Right Front Kick, Left Splitting Strike

    Qixing Tanglangquan

    01. Double Outward Circle Blocks & Right Front Kick
    02. Left Transitional Step
    03. Right Hill Climbing Stance, Left Seal/Right Splitting Strike
    04. Right Hill Climbing Stance, Seal Gathering Strike
    05. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
    06. Right Close Door Kick Method
    07. Right Ride Tiger Stance, Right Lift Palm
    08. Retreat Step to Left Ride Tiger Stance, Left Straight Strike
    09. Right Forward Step, Left Grab/Right Straight Strike
    10. Right Hill Climbing Stance, Left Gathering Strike (Wild Goose Exits Flock)
    11. Right Hill Climbing Stance, Right Splitting Strike
    12. Right Front Kick
    13. Lift Left Rear Leg, Right Crushing Strike
    13. Right Ride Tiger Stance, Right Lift Palm

    I will be glad to explain any moves that are not clear in my descriptions.

    Feel free to add your comments and insights into these sets!
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 11-30-2010 at 02:06 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    MA, USA
    Posts
    110

    Tjmh

    Reading the TJMH description, it doesn't seem accurate to the one I know. Of course, the versions of all the Mantis Froms is as varied as the leaves on a tree.
    I would offer my own description, but I'm a poor describer when it comes to traditional names of moves an techniques.
    The version I know comes down from the Zhang Bingdou lineage.

    It is similar to this, but with a chop from the initial blocking hand and then into frame punch, instead of just block with frame punch.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0lBeiB6YwY

    cheers!

    ps. if those moves reflect your description, I apologize for my ignorance.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Canton, OH
    Posts
    1,848
    Junojupiter,

    Thanks for the correction! I was aware of the move but left it out of my description erroneously. I changed the description to reflect your input.

    The video you posted is very similar to what I am familiar with except:
    1. It does not include the initial kick, as taught by Lin Hongyi.
    2. The second punch is preceded by a left outward block and a side-ward step of the left foot. In other words, the second stance is perpendicular to the first stance, as taught by Zhang Zhen Yuan. Some TJMH PM peeps I have seen leave out the second block that I described.

    Thanks again!
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 11-30-2010 at 02:29 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    MA, USA
    Posts
    110
    Just glad to be of service for once!
    Thanks to you Richard for you excellent postings as always.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Canton, OH
    Posts
    1,848

    Application of the First Five Moves: TJMH

    Here is one application of the first five moves of the TJMH version of zhai yao yi lu:

    When the opponent reaches for Mantid, the practitioner raises and separates the mantis hooks to deflect the opponent's hands outward. Mantid follows with a front kick to the opponent's exposed bladder area.

    The opponent drops his forearm to block Mantid's kick and executes a reverse punch. Mantid executes a diagonal downward block with his right forearm and thrusts a left middle knuckle protruding punch ("awl shaped fist") to the opponent's eye socket. Then follows up with a right middle knuckle protruding punch to the opponent's xiphoid process ("steal the heart").

    If the opponent is able to block Mantid's steal the heart technique, Mantid quickly grasps the opponent's blocking arm with lou shou ("grapple hand") and executes a beng chui ("crushing strike") to the bridge of the opponent's nose.

    Finally, Mantid disables the opponent with a bi men tui (close door kick) to the inner surface of the opponent's forward knee.

    Another excellent explanation of these moves in a slightly different form can be found here: http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.co...he%20peach.htm
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 12-01-2010 at 03:31 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    MA, USA
    Posts
    110

    Out of curiosity

    I'm wondering, which styles have a complete two man set for Zhai Yao Yi Lu?
    Is it just the TJMH or all/most styles?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    MA, USA
    Posts
    110

    Talking Here's my two cents (if worth even that)

    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    Here is one application of the first five moves of the TJMH version of zhai yao yi lu:

    When the opponent reaches for Mantid, the practitioner raises and separates the mantis hooks to deflect the opponent's hands outward. Mantid follows with a front kick to the opponent's exposed bladder area.

    The opponent drops his forearm to block Mantid's kick and executes a reverse punch. Mantid executes a diagonal downward block with his right forearm and thrusts a left middle knuckle protruding punch ("awl shaped fist") to the opponent's eye socket. Then follows up with a right middle knuckle protruding punch to the opponent's xiphoid process ("steal the heart").

    If the opponent is able to block Mantid's steal the heart technique, Mantid quickly grasps the opponent's blocking arm with lou shou ("grapple hand") and executes a beng chui ("crushing strike") to the bridge of the opponent's nose.

    Finally, Mantid disables the opponent with a bi men tui (close door kick)
    to the inner surface of the opponent's forward knee.

    Another excellent explanation of these moves in a slightly different form can be found here: http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.co...he%20peach.htm
    In bold above from Richard is what I have that matches, for the most part, almost exactly to my version of Zhai Yao Yi Lu. Below is my description, as I see it in my mind when trying to describe it.

    Opponent attacks with left cross, Mantid uses right arm inward gwa (sp?) block, then steps out into small hill climbing while chopping to opponents head with right hand, followed immediately with left hand frame punch to opponents head. Opponent should duck the chop and right hand block the frame punch.
    Opponent will then jab with their right hand, causing the Mantid to retract the frame hand punch and guide/deflect the punch while simultaneously shifting to monkey stance (reverse small hill climbing?) and punching to opponents mid section. Opponent should hook the punch out of the way.
    Opponent will then follow the hook with a punch to Mantid's mid section which mantid will block with a downward pat of the left hand (while shifting to small hill climbing) followed immediately by a back fist with the right hand to the opponents head. Opponent will cover the head to block the back fist.
    Mantid will then close the door kick and retreat which the opponent will double block and return their own close the door kick and retreat. Mantid will block kick if necessary while retreating.
    Begin section 2!

    I apologize for my lack of traditional naming of techniques, but my brain is Swiss cheese when it comes to that part of my training. I have severely let my Sifu down in that department I'm afraid... I need to take better notes.
    I can memorize and perform a set easily enough, but don't ask me to tell you the word formula for each technique.

    If someone can break that down into traditional terminology, it would be wonderful to me. I realize Richard has done most of that already, but some of your phrasing doesn't sound familiar to me.

    ** As a side note, all punches by Mantid would be the awl shaped fist where applicable.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Canton, OH
    Posts
    1,848
    Junojupiter,
    In answer to your question, the book A Discourse on the History of Praying Mantis Boxing in China for the Last One Hundred Years by Hon-chiu Wong lists twelve Seven Star sets that have a ling (partnered) version. Only Zhai Yao Er Lu is mentioned as having a ling set. Perhaps someone else can provide more information.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Canton, OH
    Posts
    1,848

    Miscellaneous

    Here are some Chinese characters and words used to describe moves found within the TJMH PM version of Zhai Yao Yi Lu:

    騎 鱗 步 qi lin step (qi lin bu)
    錐 子 拳 awl character fist (zhuī z quan)
    框 捶 frame punch (kung chu)
    偷 心 捶 steal heart strike (tōu xīn chu)
    葉 裡 藏 桃 hide peach under leaf (y lǐ cng to)
    閉 門 腿 close door leg (b mn tuǐ)
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 12-03-2010 at 01:01 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Tainan Taiwan
    Posts
    1,864
    Quote Originally Posted by iunojupiter View Post
    I'm wondering, which styles have a complete two man set for Zhai Yao Yi Lu?
    Is it just the TJMH or all/most styles?
    Originally no two person set exists for any Zhai Yao.
    It is a collection of short combinations.
    Zhang Bingdou reported to my Shifu that his two person set was his creation. Most two person sets are recent creations whether in Mantis or other styles.

    The oldest two person set I have found comes from the Ming Dynasty Shaolin Temple, it is two person stick.

    Kevin

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    MA, USA
    Posts
    110
    That was my understanding as well about the zhai yao two man sets, that Zhang Bingdou and his father created them.
    I was just wondering if any other system had done the same as them.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Canton, OH
    Posts
    1,848
    Josh & Kevin,
    Is there an initial front kick executed in your styles before the chop and frame punch? Both Lin Hongyi (MH TLQ) and Wong Hon Fan (NPM) taught it as a part of this form. Though Wei Xiao Tang (BB TLQ), Zhang Bingdou (TJMH), Xia Zhao Long (TJPM) and Zhang Zhenyuan (TJMH) apparently do not include it in their forms.
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 12-04-2010 at 08:32 AM.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    MA, USA
    Posts
    110
    Zhang Bingdou's TJMH starts with the initial inward block, right into chop/frame punch.
    No kick at the start.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Tainan Taiwan
    Posts
    1,864
    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    Is there an initial front kick executed in your styles before the chop and frame punch?
    I learned both ways.
    Li Kunshan left behind two hand writeen manuscripts. One contains the kick in front and one doesn't.

    It seems to me that there is more of a tendency to add toa form, not to subtract from it as time goes by. Maybe there was no kick in the beginning? And later one was added?

    On the other hand, as teachers get older they may leave out a move that is uncomfortable for them to perform. In that case later students may or may not learn the move.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Canton, OH
    Posts
    1,848
    Quote Originally Posted by Tainan Mantis View Post
    I learned both ways.
    Li Kunshan left behind two hand writeen manuscripts. One contains the kick in front and one doesn't.

    It seems to me that there is more of a tendency to add toa form, not to subtract from it as time goes by. Maybe there was no kick in the beginning? And later one was added?

    On the other hand, as teachers get older they may leave out a move that is uncomfortable for them to perform. In that case later students may or may not learn the move.
    Both theories make sense! Thanks for your input!

    To me the kick makes perfect sense in the combination:
    1. Execute the kick to create a bridge to your opponent and focus his attention downward,
    2. Chop downward with the right arm to the opponent's blocking arms and execute the reverse punch (frame punch) to the opponent's face,
    3. Drop, shift and execute a powerful sideward punch to the opponent's bladder area.
    4. Backfist to splatter the opponent's nose or to the back of the head if he is bent over from the bladder punch.
    5. Double hand grab and pull the opponent's lead arm to bring his weight over his lead leg while kicking to the opponent's lead inner knee to incapacitate him. The kick can also work as a leg reaping throw or trip.

    That is how we practice the technique in my school.
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 12-08-2010 at 05:48 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •