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Thread: Songshan Shaolin Champion

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Ericka Blackson. She didn't place, but she did come all the way out from the Netherlands.

    2011 Shark City Nationals - Luohan Quan
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Yang Chengjun: Qixingquan

    Yang Bing: Tongbeiquan

    Patricia Kusaba: um, I forget right now. I want to sayshe did qixingquan too, but it might have been dahongquan. Patricia won our Traditional Grand Champion for her age group, and I remember her doing dahong but I can't remember for which ring. Let me get back to you on this.

    Note: There were a few entries that still did some aerial stuff, despite the rules forbidding that from this division. They were penalized for that and didn't place here.
    The way I remember; first she did the Dahong and next she had to battle for 2nd/3rd place and that is when she did qi xing quan.

  2. #17
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    That sounds right, shaolinpowered, thanks!

    And thanks for coming out! I'm glad we got to meet you face-to-face.

    As for expanding the divisions, I'm actually of the philosophy that CMA should go the other way, just like the Olympics. Reduce the number of divisions. The diversity of CMA is a two-edged sword at tournaments. If there's a division for every different style, it just gets so noisy and chaotic. Back in the day, things weren't as separated. A century ago, everyone competed against each other. There were no divisions. Even a decade and a half ago, when I was competing, there were less divisions.

    The Songshan Shaolin Champion will probably remain a lone title, so there will be no separation of gender, age or empty-hand vs. weapon. There will only be one champion, just like the WildAid Tiger Claw Champion, each year.
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  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    And thanks for coming out! I'm glad we got to meet you face-to-face.

    As for expanding the divisions, I'm actually of the philosophy that CMA should go the other way, just like the Olympics. Reduce the number of divisions. The diversity of CMA is a two-edged sword at tournaments. If there's a division for every different style, it just gets so noisy and chaotic. Back in the day, things weren't as separated. A century ago, everyone competed against each other. There were no divisions. Even a decade and a half ago, when I was competing, there were less divisions.

    The Songshan Shaolin Champion will probably remain a lone title, so there will be no separation of gender, age or empty-hand vs. weapon. There will only be one champion, just like the WildAid Tiger Claw Champion, each year.
    Makes sense, thank you for clearing things up and nice meeting you too

  4. #19
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    Songshan Shaolin Champion at KFTC 20 YEARS

    With all the promotion of KFTC 20 YEARS, this event wasn't promoted that heavily this year so it's a pretty small division this time around. That's too bad because we have a monster monk panel of judges this year, but oh well.

    To update this thread, the article on Songshan Shaolin Champion 2011, Yang Chengjun, was published in the May/June 2012 Shaolin Special: The 7 Star General of the Celestial Realm
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Note: There were a few entries that still did some aerial stuff, despite the rules forbidding that from this division. They were penalized for that and didn't place here.
    Thats generally a good rule to avoid corruption of the old stuff. But interestingly some of the old forms do actually have fancy moves in them. The cartwheel (CheLun) actually appears in a fair number of old forms, as do splits (PiCha) and the occasional flick up (LiYuDaTing). These moves were not invented in the modern Wushu era and so some old forms do contain them as well as some Ditang moves (Even the classic XiaoHongQuan contains a cartwheel in its later sets!)

    In terms of the cartwheel it is considered a powerful kicking method (a roundhouse-reverse hook kick but in the vertical dirtection) although when using it it is necessary to touch the ground, however when just performing the old sets it is perfectly acceptable to jump. So there may be some cases where it is not acceptable to penalise these moves. Of course most of these forms are very rare now, but you never know. There is a movement towards reviving more of the old forms. There are even some plans here (DengFeng) to start a weapons based Sanda division with soft tipped weapons and armour. More on that when I find out more.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Thats generally a good rule to avoid corruption of the old stuff. But interestingly some of the old forms do actually have fancy moves in them. The cartwheel (CheLun) actually appears in a fair number of old forms, as do splits (PiCha) and the occasional flick up (LiYuDaTing). These moves were not invented in the modern Wushu era and so some old forms do contain them as well as some Ditang moves (Even the classic XiaoHongQuan contains a cartwheel in its later sets!)

    In terms of the cartwheel it is considered a powerful kicking method (a roundhouse-reverse hook kick but in the vertical dirtection) although when using it it is necessary to touch the ground, however when just performing the old sets it is perfectly acceptable to jump. So there may be some cases where it is not acceptable to penalise these moves. Of course most of these forms are very rare now, but you never know. There is a movement towards reviving more of the old forms. There are even some plans here (DengFeng) to start a weapons based Sanda division with soft tipped weapons and armour. More on that when I find out more.
    Yep...although I'd call the cartwheel more of a wheel kick. Obviously modern wushu has unbalanced things, but really all of the acrobatics do have their place in traditional kung fu training--to remove them entirely is a mistake.

  7. #22
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    i think the boundary should lie with the extremity of the acrobatics. tumbling and acrobatics are part of the whole package of cma. its when you find people doing things like 720 spins in the air and unecessary flips that things start to become unrealistic.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  8. #23
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    Cartwheels are allowable

    So are splits and kip ups.

    Our rules define traditional as:
    No aerial movements beyond flying kicks. No flying kicks beyond 360 degrees.
    Only two steps are permitted before any flying kick.
    No movements which are strictly gymnastic.
    The distinction is difficult to codify as a competitor may do a traditional form with a decidedly modern wushu flavor. This is common with Songshan Shaolin forms in particular, as we all know. So there's also a catch-all stipulation:
    All competition in a Traditional Division will maintain and reinforce the core principles and signature move(s) that are recognized as the trademark of the system. Competitors with any movement in a form that breaks the core principle of the style it is intended to represent will be subject to reduction in their score and possible disqualification.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    So are splits and kip ups.

    Our rules define traditional as:


    The distinction is difficult to codify as a competitor may do a traditional form with a decidedly modern wushu flavor. This is common with Songshan Shaolin forms in particular, as we all know. So there's also a catch-all stipulation:
    oh thats pretty good actually
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  10. #25
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    That does sound good.

    Only problem is finding judges who can accurately recognize when 'core principles' of ANY style being presented are being violated. Shouldn't be too hard.

  11. #26
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    That's always a problem, ShaolinDan

    That's what makes this division special. I cherry-pick the judges from the attending Shaolin wuseng.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Our rules define traditional as:
    No aerial movements beyond flying kicks. No flying kicks beyond 360 degrees.
    Only two steps are permitted before any flying kick.
    No movements which are strictly gymnastic.
    That sounds like it indeed rules out the aerial cartwheel as well as the butterfly since neither of them are flying kicks, but both appear in traditional boxing and weapon sets.

    The fact is there are plenty of movements within traditional Shaolin sets that are "strictly gymnastic" to build the overall athleticism, agility, and flexibility of the practitioner.

    For example, the Southern Courtyard (Nanyuan) Datongbiquan is a very traditional set which has a jump side split in it. It's certainly not there to kick two people simultaneously, or at least that's not a technique I would ever attempt...

    I think these movements should be allowed if the competitor can prove they are originally part of an old boxing set, which shouldn't be too hard. There can't be a zixuan division in traditional forms competition anyway. If people are doing butterflies in Qixingquan they're obviously just throwing things in there and breaking the rules, but it is legitimately a part of other traditional sets.

    Much of the decision then really depends on the experience/knowledge of the judges.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Much of the decision then really depends on the experience/knowledge of the judges.
    Well said there, it is a difficult situation. With more than 1000 forms across the many sects of Song Mountain it takes a very experienced judge.

    I mean, yeah, if they throw XuanZi into QiXing quan that should be obvious right? But have you ever seen Er Lu Qi Xing? Or San Lu? It is acceptable to add two roads together.

    I think in the vast majority of competitions however it won't be a problem. The same popular sets get passed around again and again.

  14. #29
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    We do have an additional stipulation

    If you look at our rules, we've limited the Songshan Shaolin forms to those presented within Shaolin Gong Fu: A Course in Traditional Forms.

    For the sake of this event, Classical Songshan Shaolin forms are defined as forms listed in Shaolin Gong Fu: A Course in Traditional Forms, published by the Taguo Institute. Competitors are not required to execute the form exactly as represented in these books, however the form must be listed.
    This special division is still growing. So far, no one has attempted anything overly exotic and claimed it falls within our guidelines. The Shaolin community here has been very supportive of it.
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  15. #30
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    The Songshan Shaolin Champion 2012 is Yang Chengjun

    Two years in a row. He won with Taizuquan.

    2nd Place: Yu Zhenlong
    3rd Place: Chris Shephard

    More to come.
    Gene Ching
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