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Thread: Skill vs. Strength/speed

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC Elbows View Post
    Your post is true, but without silk pajamas, you're still external.
    Quit giving away the inner secrets.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  2. #137
    No, silk jammies automatically makes you super awesome guy. And if they're white, even better.

    It actually makes the difference between internal and external. But you won't understand 'till you get your first set.






    I've never worn them, but they have got to be pretty comfortable. I had a pair of silk boxers once. Not exactly the kind of thing you wanna sweat in, but it sure feels good. Airy as fukc. On a nice summer day with a cool breeze, prolly feels like you're naked.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Olson View Post
    Yeah, you know what's funny, how you totally ignored the point where I basically agreed with MK that BJJ probably embodies many of the same principles as the so-called internal arts.

    It's funny how binary people are. Are you a computer? Are you going to melt down if I present a slightly different point of view?

    2+2=5...oh ****, look out, he might explode

    EO
    and you know what else if funny, merry was talking about BJJ when he said you needed both skill and physical attributes..(he is a blackbelt that competes) ....so since you agree it can be seen as an internal art do you also agree that other internal arts also need strength and conditioning.......oh look you agree with me and the rest you just didnt know it

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC Elbows View Post
    A ton of taiji people stress it a lot, and it is a concept of taiji.
    I believe you but maybe I know it by another name ie what is it called in Chinese?

    Rootedness and yeilding are both concepts of taiji. What many people don't understand is how to yeild, at some point there must be a redirect or the opponent acheives their goal and you lose your balance/get hit/get thrown.
    Yes, I know what you are talking about.


    The how requires understanding what is being given you, not just understanding your taiji. You must experience many different people at equal or above your own level in many different arts and approaches to get a good feel for how this works.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merryprankster View Post
    Sweet. I have a black belt in an internal art. Judo and wrestling are also internal then.
    Not exaclty, what I'm saying is that some of the principles/strategies are the same even if the techniques aren't executed quite the same.

    Just out of curiosity have you ever wrestled/pushed/whatever with highly-skilled Taiji master?

    I'd encourage it, if only to prove that you're right.

    If a guy is stronger, faster or better than you, when he's tired, he's none of those things. Skill maximizes your effectiveness by amplifying your attributes. And you cannot develop skill if you don't have the attributes needed to constantly test them and refine them under pressure.
    This has been mostly enjoyable discussion and hopefully provoked some thought, but I think we've covered all the ground we can via the written word and we're just going in circles.

    I'd just encourage you to test some of your skills against a really skilled and reputable internal practitioners and see if you hold the same viewpoint. As someone coming from an "external" martial art, it changed my view.

    Cheers,

    EO
    Last edited by Eric Olson; 04-02-2011 at 09:55 AM.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    so since you agree it can be seen as an internal art do you also agree that other internal arts also need strength and conditioning.
    Read my original post for my thoughts on this.

    EO

  7. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by KC Elbows View Post
    As an aside, if you're ever in the KC area, feel free to contact me, I get together with a number of guys from different backgrounds here and work clinches and throws a good amount, but I can't promise you some mystical rooting thing, where my root is strong at that moment, I probably won't get thrown, where it's off, where yours is better in motion, I'll get thrown.
    I may have to take you up on that - I'll bring the beer! KC is supposed to have good steak - so you bring the steaks... Although I'm poor- so it may be awhile before I can take a real vacation and get out there.

    Anyway- I do think there's something to high level yielding. I'm a tactile learner, so first hand experience is the only way I'll be able to incorporate it in my approach to MA... hence my curiosity in trying to uproot a good tai chi guy. I win by losing because if he does yield and it leads to me being off-balanced and thrown- I feel the process first hand and can begin to internalize the concepts. The biggest disappointment for me would be if I do throw the guy.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Olson View Post
    Not exaclty, what I'm saying is that some of the principles/strategies are the same even if the techniques aren't executed quite the same.

    Just out of curiosity have you ever wrestled/pushed/whatever with highly-skilled Taiji master?

    I'd encourage it, if only to prove that you're right.



    This has been mostly enjoyable discussion and hopefully provoked some thought, but I think we've covered all the ground we can via the written word and we're just going in circles.

    I'd just encourage you to test some of your skills against a really skilled and reputable
    internal practitioners and see if you hold the same viewpoint. As someone coming from
    an "external" martial art, it changed my view.


    Cheers,

    EO

    I haven't. Have you tested your skills against high level Judoka, wrestlers and BJJ people? I'm talking Olympic caliber, ie genuine masters as objectively measured in the meritocratic systems each possess? I have. I can't say it changed my perspective. I was only in awe of the skills. But I know a lot about how they got them.

    I doubt sparring with anybody would change my perspective. In my world, there is only skilled and not skilled. Philosophical distinctions are therefore meaningless.

    And I don't think we're going round in circles. I don't think my point is coming across, but I am at a loss to make it better. My failing.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  9. #144
    push hands is just an excercise. dont mean sh1t.
    Last edited by bawang; 04-02-2011 at 12:49 PM.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    have you ever FOUGHT one
    I have done that many times in my life. One Taiji master and his wife knocked on my door and challenged me "push hands" in my own living room. I told him that even if I do Taiji, I don't do push hands, but I'm willing to spar or wrestle with him. He said that he had bad knee and he could not wrestle or spar, so we just sat down, had some tea, and talked. Later on people told me that he had challenged many people in push hands (people said that he was European push hands champion that year).

    The reason that I don't do push hands because I had bad experience before. Oneday I was training in the park by myself, a Taiji teacher just finished his class on the otherside of the park. He and one of his students walked toward me and want to "touch hand" with me. Since I didn't understand what "touch hands" mean,

    - I grabbed on his arm, he said, "No grabbing".
    - I scooped his leg, he said, "No leg".
    - I moved in and tried to run him down, he said, "Be careful, I'm an old man (later on I found out that he was younger than me)".
    - He pushed me, I stepped back, he said, "You lose".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 04-02-2011 at 01:10 PM.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    - I grabbed on his arm, he said, "No grabbing".
    - I scooped his leg, he said, "No leg".
    - I moved in and tried to run him down, he said, "Be careful, I'm an old man (later on I found out that he was younger than me)".
    - He pushed me, I stepped back, he said, "You lose".
    Maybe you lost when you listened to him about no grabbing

  12. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    He and one of his students walked toward me and want to "touch hand" with me. (
    exactly man. tai chi peopl always wanna push hands and then think they "won"

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  13. #148
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    Too mamy restriction in Taiji push hand. That make the training not very useful. When you control your opponent's arms, your opponent has to "break away your control". At that moment, all you need is to let go your control and attack. you'll have that 1/10 second upper hand on your opponent. The reason is simple, to "release a control" is faster than to "break a control".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK8oHEB4lU8

    In the above clip at 0.06, the reason that your opponent could push you is because you didnot grab on his wrist and control his arm. Why do you want to give him that kind of freedom? If you control his arms by grabbing both of his wrists (put him in defense), when he tries to break your grips, you suddently attack. Trying to assume that your opponent will never grab your wrist is not realistic in combat.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 04-02-2011 at 03:28 PM.

  14. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Trying to assume that your opponent will never grab your wrist is not realistic in combat.
    thats because push hands is not combat. if u see a taichi guy talking about fighting ask him to show u the tai chi fighting stance. their eyes go blank.
    Last edited by bawang; 04-02-2011 at 04:05 PM.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  15. #150
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    I think an internal vs. external debate ultimately ends up being silly. I know people who are skilled in external styles who believe that internal work has helped their external kung fu. However, I've yet to meet anyone who's ever only practiced an internal style who can fight with it. And I mean actually fight, or at least full contact spar.
    Sith Legal Kung Fu is unstoppable.

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