Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 52

Thread: when you started wing chun

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    We don't share the same ideas of ving tsun so no point in any further comments from me.
    Well, if we were to agree on everything, then what would be the point of discussing things?

    Actually, I believe that we do to some extent. Yes, Chum kiu teaches us (among other things) to use our hips in striking. On that we agree.

    I am also saying that there is WC striking where you don't use your hips as in turning with the punch, but as tucking in and sinking (further) on the point of contact. Don't you use this methodology in your school? If not, are you not interested for the sake of expanding your WC knowledge, to look into it?

    By the way, Ten Tigers also referred to this in a recent post here.

    Incidentally, the lineage of Chow Gar that I practice, also uses the hips, but in a manner that is not visible for the onlooker and somewhat different from the WC way.

    The world of the TCMAs is fascinating and IMHO, any kung fu lover will want to expand his knowledge and understanding as regards genuine TCMA methodologies.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    phoenix, az
    Posts
    302
    Thanks for the input Hardwork and you're right to what I was referring to. The human body has hips so obviously in a strike they will be used but as tentigers was talking about when you do styles for a long time where you use a reverse style punch it can be difficult to get used the the WCK style of punching when you first start out. It's a very simple idea and i'm surprised someone was able to try and start an argument in this thread already on the subject since the argument was not done in any positive or constructive way.
    Last edited by shaolin_allan; 08-07-2011 at 01:33 PM.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    2,252
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    So you obviously have no clue about Chum Kiu!

    GH

    He did say when he started Graham..... i assume you wait until at least the 2nd lesson to teach CK??

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    phoenix, az
    Posts
    302
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    He did say when he started Graham..... i assume you wait until at least the 2nd lesson to teach CK??
    Exactly Glenn I didnt even understand why Chum Kiu came into play because I was talking about as a beginner to WCk from other martial arts.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    2,252
    Quote Originally Posted by shaolin_allan View Post
    Exactly Glenn I didnt even understand why Chum Kiu came into play because I was talking about as a beginner to WCk from other martial arts.
    Dont worry about Graham, he's just sensitive to non PB WCers... its challenges his religious beliefs

    Back to topic, ive been doing MT for 3 years now and thought id transitioned pretty quickly from the closed hip-open hip (WC-MT) method of power generation.
    In hindsight it took me a lot longer and im sure the other way around would have been just as hard.
    But maybe im just slow

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Shell Beach, CA, USA
    Posts
    6,664
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by shaolin_allan View Post
    I was talking about as a beginner to WCk from other martial arts.
    If you already have combat ability from another style, when you cross train a new style, you want to pick up whatever that you don't have and ignore whatever that you already have. This way you don't have to throw away everything that you know and start from ground zero again. If you think you are the master and all styles are your slaves, you should not have such problem.

    The "cross training" is just like a married man, you don't have to divoce your wife to have sex with another girl.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 08-07-2011 at 02:56 PM.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    phoenix, az
    Posts
    302
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Dont worry about Graham, he's just sensitive to non PB WCers... its challenges his religious beliefs

    Back to topic, ive been doing MT for 3 years now and thought id transitioned pretty quickly from the closed hip-open hip (WC-MT) method of power generation.
    In hindsight it took me a lot longer and im sure the other way around would have been just as hard.
    But maybe im just slow
    PB WC? I mean I understood the point Graham made and it was a good one, but Chum Kiu is something students are taught after they've been into their school for a while. I don't think you're slow at all and would also have a good amount of difficulty going from MT to WC and vice versa it was the same for me going from tkd to wc.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    2,252
    Quote Originally Posted by shaolin_allan View Post
    PB WC? I mean I understood the point Graham made and it was a good one, but Chum Kiu is something students are taught after they've been into their school for a while. I don't think you're slow at all and would also have a good amount of difficulty going from MT to WC and vice versa it was the same for me going from tkd to wc.
    I was just joking Allan

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    phoenix, az
    Posts
    302
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    I was just joking Allan
    Haha nah I know you were I was just saying it can be tough to transition to a style like WC for anyone. It was a funny joke though

    Another funny as hell quote

    The "cross training" is just like a married man, you don't have to divoce your wife to have sex with another girl.

    But the sinking hips and even the turning and use of the hips seem like they can feel very awkward at first and specific to WC.
    Last edited by shaolin_allan; 08-07-2011 at 03:20 PM.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    5,714
    If you already have combat ability from another style, when you cross train a new style, you want to pick up whatever that you don't have and ignore whatever that you already have. This way you don't have to throw away everything that you know and start from ground zero again. If you think you are the master and all styles are your slaves, you should not have such problem.
    Might work for two striking arts ... definitely doesn't work for a striker learning to grapple or vice versa.

    Also, the WC I was taught very much uses the hip ... and from what I understand the same is true for CSLWC (Robert Chu / Alan Orr).
    Last edited by anerlich; 08-08-2011 at 07:01 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Also, the WC I was taught very much uses the hip ... and from what I understand the same is true for CSLWC (Robert Chu / Alan Orr).
    Most if not all TCMAs use the hip, but there are different ways the hips are used. The way you were taught to use the hips in Wing Chun is pribably taught in all knowledges.

    However,if you are using lets say a straigtht walking in punch then you will not be twisting your hips, but they will be tucked in and "sinking" (and depending on lineage "expanding your breath") at the conclusion of your strike. So again, the hip area is used in this type of action, but it is not "twisted".

    Again, in arts such as certain lineages of Chow Gar (and probably styles such asPak Mei and Dragon), the hip is used yet in another much lesser known way.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post

    Don't you use this methodology in your school? If not, are you not interested for the sake of expanding your WC knowledge, to look into it?
    Nope and BTW I spent 8 years researching "other" WC systems so my knowledge and understanding is ok thank you please?

    The culmination of my path in Ving Tsun has been based on trial and error. Some systems just don't cut it even though the heads of their systems claim to be Grandmatsers and Masters!

    GH

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Nope and BTW I spent 8 years researching "other" WC systems so my knowledge and understanding is ok thank you please?
    You have to keep in mind that there are WC systems out there that take 6 to 8 years to complete, and then there are the other kung fu styles......

    Also, keep in mind that over 95% percent of Wing Chun or indeed any major kung fu style, you would have been exposed to would habe been (and are) incomplete (poor to mediocre). This is the Mcdojo phenomenon. So, it was not invented by me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    The culmination of my path in Ving Tsun has been based on trial and error. Some systems just don't cut it even though the heads of their systems claim to be Grandmatsers and Masters!
    Being somewhat familiar with the Wing Chun world and the TCMA scene in general, I would say that your 8 years of trial and error are pretty insignificant in a world where there are Wing Chun lineages that take 6 to 8 years to complete.

    IMHO, for people to grow in Wing Chun, or indeed in any kung fu style, they need to come down from their high horses and be more humble. I have already met a Chinese master who after 40 or so years of practice of kung fu practice said that he would have liked to continue with his kung fu studies in his next life, because there was so much to learn. I have net a karate master in his early 70s that said that he kept discovering new things about his practice even in his current training.

    So, lets just get real. 8 years of Wing Chun experimentation in world full of Mckwoons can potentially leave gaps in one's knowledge and the way you expressed yourself, you came across as a "know it all" person, as regards WC.

    So, let me ask, and I am really curious. What is the source of your power when you are stepping in a straight line and punching your opponent. This is a case where you will not be turning your hips. Do you just use your body unity (behind the punch) with the step and the usual elbow alingments? Or is there more?

    Does you lineage practice Iron Palm? Does your lineage of Wing Chun incorporate Chin-na to an advanced level? Does your lineage take the WC principles to the ground as part of its ORIGINAL curriculum (that is, they were not added since the popularity of the Gracies/BJJ/UFCs)?

    Do have ANY Internal aspects to your training? How about breathing, do have different types for striking scenarios as regards the effect of the strikes? Or do you use a standard type of "breath out" when punching?

    With regular 3 times a week training (plus "homework") how long would it take an average person to complete the curriculum of your lineage?

    I am asking all this because I am GENUINELY curious and a lot of that curiousity comes from seeing your own high regards for the lineage that you practice.
    Last edited by Hardwork108; 08-09-2011 at 05:13 AM.

  14. #29
    You have to keep in mind that there are WC systems out there that take 6 to 8 years to complete, and then there are the other kung fu styles......
    This goes completely against Ving Tsun theory!!!!! One never completes the system as we are always learning more efficient ways to apply the concepts. Skill develops from year to year in which we will have a better understanding of the system. We are our own enemy through being prone to making mistakes in the heat of a fight. It is these mistakes Ving Tsun serves to correct in my lineage.

    Also, keep in mind that over 95% percent of Wing Chun or indeed any major kung fu style, you would have been exposed to would habe been (and are) incomplete (poor to mediocre). This is the Mcdojo phenomenon. So, it was not invented by me.
    You may speculate if you want but in that statement you may be writing off many you respect.

    Being somewhat familiar with the Wing Chun world and the TCMA scene in general, I would say that your 8 years of trial and error are pretty insignificant in a world where there are Wing Chun lineages that take 6 to 8 years to complete.
    I have been involved in such lineages especially the Foshan versions of Wing Chun and I left as it was nonsense. As WSL would say "going around and around the bull's horns and getting nowhere!"
    IMHO, for people to grow in Wing Chun, or indeed in any kung fu style, they need to come down from their high horses and be more humble. I have already met a Chinese master who after 40 or so years of practice of kung fu practice said that he would have liked to continue with his kung fu studies in his next life, because there was so much to learn. I have net a karate master in his early 70s that said that he kept discovering new things about his practice even in his current training.
    Define "Master"!!!! Master is a title given by followers who (in some cases) blindy follow silly ideas. It's all in the eye of the beholder you see? I have met "masters" in Wing Chun and they are good at shows and are held in high regard because of name and status! No great fighting abilty! There are no masters in my lineage! Just normal human being who just happen to be very skillful at Ving Tsun!

    So, lets just get real. 8 years of Wing Chun experimentation in world full of Mckwoons can potentially leave gaps in one's knowledge and the way you expressed yourself, you came across as a "know it all" person, as regards WC.
    I know enough to function! I think you are the one in McDojo land!

    So, let me ask, and I am really curious. What is the source of your power when you are stepping in a straight line and punching your opponent. This is a case where you will not be turning your hips. Do you just use your body unity (behind the punch) with the step and the usual elbow alingments? Or is there more?
    Ving Tsun teaches you to use the whole body for the main weapon....the straight punch. I'm sorry but I can't show by profusely tapping my keyboard!!
    Does you lineage practice Iron Palm? Does your lineage of Wing Chun incorporate Chin-na to an advanced level? Does your lineage take the WC principles to the ground as part of its ORIGINAL curriculum (that is, they were not added since the popularity of the Gracies/BJJ/UFCs)?
    You have your ideas and I have mine...no biggy!!

    Do have ANY Internal aspects to your training? How about breathing, do have different types for striking scenarios as regards the effect of the strikes? Or do you use a standard type of "breath out" when punching?
    I breathe to remian alive mate!

    With regular 3 times a week training (plus "homework") how long would it take an average person to complete the curriculum of your lineage?
    I train most days for 2-3 hours. What everybody else is doing is not my business. With the right person and the right amount of time good progress can be made.
    I am asking all this because I am GENUINELY curious and a lot of that curiousity comes from seeing your own high regards for the lineage that you practice.
    ...as you do for yours!!

    GH

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    This goes completely against Ving Tsun theory!!!!! One never completes the system as we are always learning more efficient ways to apply the concepts. Skill develops from year to year in which we will have a better understanding of the system. We are our own enemy through being prone to making mistakes in the heat of a fight. It is these mistakes Ving Tsun serves to correct in my lineage.
    My reference to the time period needed to complete a style was as regards the set curriculum of techniques, applications, concepts, principles, etc. Not skill development.

    I did imply that there is a lot more to learn?



    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    You may speculate if you want but in that statement you may be writing off many you respect.
    That statement is a FACT!



    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I have been involved in such lineages especially the Foshan versions of Wing Chun and I left as it was nonsense. As WSL would say "going around and around the bull's horns and getting nowhere!"
    First of all we cannot necessarily believe your opinion of them being "nonesense". After all, how long did you train them? Were the sifus qualified? Did the stuff they were teaching go against your "scientific" belief system?
    Qualified or not, did they just take you for a ride? Whatever the truth, you do realize that there are at least 7 other lineages of WC in Foshan alone.

    There are also other manifestations of Wing Chun in countries such as Malaysia, Singapoor etc. You are not curious at all?


    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Define "Master"!!!!
    A master is a person who has mastered a discipline to a high level. Read master carpenter, master sculpture, master paint....clear now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Master is a title given by followers who (in some cases) blindy follow silly ideas.
    Oh boy, you really have the idea of master all mixed up....LOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    It's all in the eye of the beholder you see?
    I am not sure, but your attitude may be the reason that you did not find any kung fu of use in Foshan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I have met "masters" in Wing Chun and they are good at shows and are held in high regard because of name and status! No great fighting abilty!
    Well, you just proved my 95% and above kung fu schools (including their "masters" being poor to mediocre)....

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    There are no masters in my lineage!
    Why am I not surprised?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Just normal human being who just happen to be very skillful at Ving Tsun!
    There are many normal people who are skilful in varying disciplines, but they do not qualify as MASTERS! I believe you have just confused this master concept.



    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I know enough to function! I think you are the one in McDojo land!
    Then why are you here? You seem to know everything and not interested in other lineages that are different and even richer than yours. So you are not here to learn, are you another one who is here to "teach"?

    For whatever it is worth, most people in this forum and their grandmothers believe they know enough.

    I do not know much about your lineage, but I did watch a couple of PB videos. I noticed that you guys go back as a matter of habit and/or strategy. That already indicates a HUGE difference between what you practice and what I practice, not to mention the mindset of the Chow Gar that I have also practiced.

    So again, you are not interested how other kung fu styles are more in your face and have different strategies? Do you practice Iron skills? Does your system have Chin-na and ground fighting? Internal training?



    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Ving Tsun teaches you to use the whole body for the main weapon...
    Most, if not all kung fu styles do the same!


    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    .the straight punch. I'm sorry but I can't show by profusely tapping my keyboard!!
    There were certain descriptions I was looking for but I guess you do your straight punch differently.


    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    You have your ideas and I have mine...no biggy!!
    They are not my "ideas" they are part and parcel of the lineage that I practice. That is, Chin-na, Iron Skills, Chi kung, Ground Fighting, etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I breathe to remian alive mate!
    No surprise there either. Not even the few sifus/masters who know the breathing methodologies, do not teach them openly.....



    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I train most days for 2-3 hours. What everybody else is doing is not my business. With the right person and the right amount of time good progress can be made.
    I asked you an honest and straight question, how long does it take to complete
    the curriculum in your lineage (instructor level)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    ...as you do for yours!!
    That is a good thing, but not only does my sifu discuss other lineages, he also discusses other styles of kung fu, some of which are superior to most WC out there.

    It is all about putting aside pride and embrace knowledge from other manifestations of one's chosen style of kung fu and indeed the other TCMAs.

    GH[/QUOTE]

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •