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Thread: Why does MMA target WC?

  1. #1
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    Why does MMA target WC?

    Let me preface this by saying I am not (nor have been) a WC/VT (or whatever other name you prefer) practitioner. I have much respect for the style - just never seriously trained it. I've done some bits of various southern styles, but my main bread n butter is Northern Shaolin. That said...

    My question for long-time practitioners of the art is this:
    I've seen way too many MMA folks on this board as well as on others, youtube, etc. (including that now-famous clip of Rogan's) totally insult and dis the style. BUT you don't hear them calling out Lung Ying, CLF, White Crane, Northern Shaolin, etc. I'm not hinting that they think these styles are better, but I am dumbfounded at this - WHY? I mean are all these people to think "Kung Fu" = Wing Chun [only]?

    Was there a WC individual who got into a famous MMA match and lost so they now dis the entire style? Or what is it?

    Just curious why they pick on one particular style of TCMA? Why the grudge?

    (Definitely not hoping to have my main style called out, but just curious why they're doing this - plain ignorance or something more)?
    Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me


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  2. #2
    I think a better question is why does WC care what MMA thinks? As long as your WC works for you who gives a s***. But that's another topic all together.

    IMHO, I think there are many reasons. There have been a few WC practitioners in the past from notable Sifu's (will not mention names but you can google it) that have participated in Cage Fighting/Vale Tudo that lost within the first couple minutes of their matches; usually via take down/submission. There are also many clips online of WC practitioner getting beaten by much more skilled martial arts practitioners. Also, there are more WC practitioners than any other kung fu style in the world (arguably Tai Chi might be number 1). Since there are so many of us we become a large target not just for MMA enthusiasts but martial arts in general.

    Having said that, Alan Orr has his students who are doing well in the MMA arena. There is also "Seal the Deal Obasi". So there are some who are trying to change that image. Also note worthy is the following: "Anderson Silva's intervew for Sensei Sportv Ep. 103 (a Brazilian Channel). When asked what Steven Seagal had really taught him, the Spider said: "some Aikido and some Wing Chun, the Art that Yip Man taught to Bruce Lee"" Someone mentioned where Steven Seagal learned WC and then pointed out that Randy Williams was his body guard for some years and taught Seagal what he knew.

    However, in my opinion, although wing chun concepts can be applied to sport fighting, it is somewhat limited when MMA rules are applied. That is my opinion. However I do feel there is merit in training ones WC with the like of MMA practitioners, especially for developing ones take down defense.
    Last edited by nasmedicine; 08-09-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Don't know what Rogan's problem was with WC. Do you care?

    Back in the 90's Emin Boztepe and the Gracies had a very public d*ck measuring contest and there was a lot of hot air about setting up a match in California (IIRC) but it all fizzled out.

    WC is one of the more popular styles of KF and thus may be a more obvious target than many.

    My WC instructor is a BJJ brown belt and so am I. A number of my Sidais have had successful MMA matches with one win over a BJJ BB, along with a fair proportion of losses.

    I train BJJ with one of the late Sifu Jim Fung's top students as well.

    None of the MMA guys I have trained with diss WC per se. They do save a lot of derision for KF mouth boxers who deride MMA and claim stylistic superiority from a safe distance but never take any action to back up their words.
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  4. #4
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    Thanks for your replies; it does indeed answer some questions for me. So the two responses seem to say that (aside from the additional information they've given) WC is a bigger and more popular target.

    Why do you think WC is a more popular form of TCMA? I hate to call out the Bruce Lee thing, but could that have been a reason for its popularity? (Both of you have hinted at the why do I care thing - it's not that I give a F*** about what they think - but because I am not a WC practitioner, I am trying to gain a bit more understanding about its popularity and why mma folks want to pick)

    My interest in this is many-fold:
    1) I just watched the Rogan video (I know I am late to the party, but I am a tcma guy and don't really follow the mma stuff)
    2) Some of my students are now in the Duan Da (Dun Da) section of our curriculum; although we are northern shaolin, the dun da is short strike and about in-fighting. So aside from the actual "form", we have many drills that seem (to an outsider like me) similar to some WC, some Hakka hands, and other concepts.
    3) This, in a way, is for me to understand a bit more about my own system, by attempting to understand if it is an interpretation, or a borrowing.
    4) I am pretty good at the short strike part of our curriculum, although I never studied any southern short fist. I would have liked too, though, at age 40 I believe it may be too late, so I am stuck at making these types of discoveries.
    5) Just dam curious :P
    Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me


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  5. #5

    Why Does MMA target WC

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwind View Post
    Let me preface this by saying I am not (nor have been) a WC/VT (or whatever other name you prefer) practitioner. I have much respect for the style - just never seriously trained it. I've done some bits of various southern styles, but my main bread n butter is Northern Shaolin. That said...

    My question for long-time practitioners of the art is this:
    I've seen way too many MMA folks on this board as well as on others, youtube, etc. (including that now-famous clip of Rogan's) totally insult and dis the style. BUT you don't hear them calling out Lung Ying, CLF, White Crane, Northern Shaolin, etc. I'm not hinting that they think these styles are better, but I am dumbfounded at this - WHY? I mean are all these people to think "Kung Fu" = Wing Chun [only]?

    Was there a WC individual who got into a famous MMA match and lost so they now dis the entire style? Or what is it?

    Just curious why they pick on one particular style of TCMA? Why the grudge?

    (Definitely not hoping to have my main style called out, but just curious why they're doing this - plain ignorance or something more)?
    Northwind , the styles you mentioned in your topic thread are good too , but to me WC has more advocates who really believe and practices the WC styles than the styles you mentioned . What I mean by advocates is people who really back up the WC style . But to me I think it ' s good to be open minded and learn other styles of kung fu too such as the ones you mentioned over just learning WC .

    Because , I myself like to see the other styles of kung fu stand out too , well there is a movie based on Choy lee fut with Sammo Hung in it , but yeah ! It ' s not as a good movie as the Ip Man movies though , but I still have respect for other kung fu styles in general too . But I like the fighting parts of the choy lee fut movie though .

    Even in the martial arts magazines like Inside Kung Fu for example there is something on WC , even on the youtube , movies , books . So maybe the sifus of other styles of kung fu would like to do the samething too , but no support from people maybe .
    WC , is a very sophisticated and simple , economical system of self defense to learn , that ' s why with only 3 - hand forms to learn , the wooden dummy set , chi sao and weapons , and the world is attracted to it . Other styles of kung fu
    really don ' t got any advocates or supporters that 's why . I even hate to say or see that way , but realistically it is that way .

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by lance View Post
    Northwind , the styles you mentioned ...
    Hi Lance. Thanks for your reply, but I think you completely misunderstood my point. I could have named a gazillion more styles. I was NOT comparing styles. I was asking why the insults of WC from MMA were only directed towards WC and not other styles (the styles I named were simply for example; as in, I could say "Why did they not pick on Bajiquan, Gaojia Baguazhang, TongBei Quan, DaBeiQuan, etc.). Point being, I was asking mainly why did they pick on WC over other styles, and then after the two replies I was asking thoughts on why had WC grown so popular. Does that make more sense ?
    Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me


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  7. #7
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    As an MMA guy that has picked on wing chun before let me answer, wing chunners (well certain people inside the art) bring it on themselves, William cheungs anti grappling clips for example, emin calling out the Gracie’s then back tracking, endless talk about chi sau being the ultimate close range training principle without any regard given to actual clinch work, all the talk about wing chun’s sophistication and superiority without too many people actually backing it up in the ring. All the talk about how the ring is not the street and how wing chun is so deadly also draws MMA guys in. And then we have people take so much pride in wing chuns roof top matches in the 50’s….and then when we see those matches we see how poor they actually were……..so on and so on. People are also drawn to the wing chun forums from other arts because of all the infighting and petty insults that go on, people aren’t nearly as drawn to the southern forum or mantis forums because they aren’t nearly as much fun to read )

    But the main reason is the riddle of wing chun, it is without doubt the post popular form of Chinese boxing in the world, and yet so few examples of it working in any environment can be found, not in the ring, the street the cage, apart from low level stuff from alan orr, phil Redmond and a few others nothing exists to prove how effective this deadly art is, and where it does exist alan orr or at a higher level anelichs sifu in Oz people say its not true wing chun and looks like kick boxing, The old sifus don’t like advertising and posting video clips does not work for wing chun (as it does for certain other arts), because there are hundreds of sifu with chi sau clips, form and application clips out there, but none seem to want to post clips of actual fighting

    Other arts you mentioned like bak mei, southern dragon, Baiji etc are in comparison fairly small, don’t put out nearly as many clips and a lot of the sifu keep themselves to themselves and thus don’t attract as much attention. CLF and Lama which do have more of a presence on this board are given more leeway because there are numerous clips of them in action fighting in various events.
    Another reason is because the art is so wide spread a lot of people have had some exposure to it, start talking about bak mei’s monk disrobes technique, or CLF ten seeds and people will go what and look at other threads? Start talking about chain punching or bong sau or chi sau and people have a frame of reference

    Hope that helps
    Last edited by Frost; 08-10-2011 at 03:24 AM.

  8. #8
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    Hey Frost,

    As much as we disagree on things, I thank you for replying. What you've said makes a lot of sense to me now. I am still not 100% on understanding, but getting much closer, to say the least!

    I am curious, though, what might you say about a good WC practitioner in a scenario, wherein the grappler can not do the take-down due to a WC practitioner having a decent anti-ground game (read: gotta have ground to even at least know what is coming, what to look for, etc.)?

    Do you think WC's short range effectiveness could be good if it were trained traditionally AND with an eye towards dealing with ground-game-proficients?

    Just curious, since yours is the first outside view, on this topic, I've heard. I ask this because I find there to be value in all systems, but the value to be really for what the individual wants/needs for their future in life.

    Like I said, I am not a WC guy, but we do have short-range training ( along with other principled trainings ), and am trying to learn more from a TCMA building as opposed to just being a 40-year-old going into the ring and losing more teeth than I am already due to genetics. (This scares me more than you know)

    Our short-range tactics seem to be a mix of traditional long and short styles, plus entries for throwing/grappling, but from there they have a smaller amount of technique, due to what we've all heard before: throw me down and my buddy will spear you - type of thing.

    So...I personally will never be in a ring, never want to be. However I do wish to provide more opportunity for my students of northern tcma who wish to go that route. So I am querying the group that seems to be picked on the most, in regards to in-fighting.

    Does that make sense? Am on my 3rd beer, so it just might not. :P
    Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me


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  9. #9
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    Thatís the problem, a decent anti grappling game requires a working knowledge of grappling, what you see from a lot of the anti grappling crowd from wing chun is terrible takedowns and equally terrible defences, I have seen better grappling clips from the northern systems and thus better anti grappling from them. Wing chun from the Yip mans lineage seems to be:
    a) upright ie very vertical no real level change is used
    b) very close range
    c) no real lateral movement as seem in boxing
    d) a sensitivity game that works a lot on the arms but doesnít really show ways to deal with people using underhooks overhooks body locks etc and finally
    d) doesnít generate real knock down power in its strikes, we can disagree on this but boxers have real power in their close range strikes, CLF guys use torque as well to get that power, dragon uses bending and raising at the waist to get that power (I remember a friend of mine saying his master prefers to dragon over wing chun because of the lack or real power)


    So what you get typically is a upright style with little movement and no real power in its single strikes, that likes to fight at a close range but doesnít have any level change and doesnít really deal with the whole of the clinch but rather the hand fighting range only

    Does that sound like a good style to deal with grappling?

    Honestly if you are going to fight at a close range you had better be able to generate REAL knockdown power with every shot, and have a real understanding of the clinch and how to level change otherwise you are going down

    Now I know people will post wing chun has all this, but from what we can see and read its hardly known for its power shots (im not talking 1 inch demos im talking the ability to drop a moving target in real time) or its clinch and level change (alan orrs stuff aside with comes from robert and I believe is very different from what most wing chun guys do)

    Hope that makes sense

  10. #10
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    Hey Frost

    (in answer to your last question) that does make sense. I still love what I've seen from WC, but I am still of the mindset that men fight and not styles; thusly I can definitely see where a WC man, who wants to be a better all-round fighter, might improve.

    I know what you mean about northern systems (hell even our basic tan tui has lots of clinch-work/throw-entry/understanding, etc., but I look to alot of southern systems for in-fighting things outside of what our system has, so it makes sense that a decent ground game can help.

    But...

    I am still not convinced at the WC-specific picking on. Does it boil down to the fact that a few loud mouths of wc got into the cage and got creamed? I don't really think that is fair, because in reality all you can say is that person X beat person Y; not style X beat style Y.

    Granted, there may be many WC schools that train in a fashion unproductive to the cage, but does that mean WC, as a style/ better yet - a body of body-combative-tactics is useless simply because some folks didn't train it to handle that type of opponent?

    Hoping that makes sense back atcha
    Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me


    http://www.pathsatlanta.org

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    That’s the problem, a decent anti grappling game requires a working knowledge of grappling, what you see from a lot of the anti grappling crowd from wing chun is terrible takedowns and equally terrible defences, I have seen better grappling clips from the northern systems and thus better anti grappling from them. Wing chun from the Yip mans lineage seems to be:
    a) upright ie very vertical no real level change is used
    b) very close range
    c) no real lateral movement as seem in boxing
    d) a sensitivity game that works a lot on the arms but doesn’t really show ways to deal with people using underhooks overhooks body locks etc and finally
    d) doesn’t generate real knock down power in its strikes, we can disagree on this but boxers have real power in their close range strikes, CLF guys use torque as well to get that power, dragon uses bending and raising at the waist to get that power (I remember a friend of mine saying his master prefers to dragon over wing chun because of the lack or real power)


    So what you get typically is a upright style with little movement and no real power in its single strikes, that likes to fight at a close range but doesn’t have any level change and doesn’t really deal with the whole of the clinch but rather the hand fighting range only

    Does that sound like a good style to deal with grappling?

    Honestly if you are going to fight at a close range you had better be able to generate REAL knockdown power with every shot, and have a real understanding of the clinch and how to level change otherwise you are going down

    Now I know people will post wing chun has all this, but from what we can see and read its hardly known for its power shots (im not talking 1 inch demos im talking the ability to drop a moving target in real time) or its clinch and level change (alan orrs stuff aside with comes from robert and I believe is very different from what most wing chun guys do)

    Hope that makes sense
    and frost is an expert on VT ? correction what HE thinks is vt , granted most is bad . I would agree with mma views of the 'commercial' downfall of VT to its apparent ease of convincing guys they can fight by doing rolling hands and playing tag trapping , sad but mma has cleared the floor of bs artists

    a) upright ie very vertical no real level change is used ........we can bend at the waist
    b) very close range ...........................................? we kick too
    c) no real lateral movement as seem in boxing..... wrong
    d) a sensitivity game that works a lot on the arms but doesn’t really show ways to deal with people using underhooks overhooks body locks etc and finally ...wrong, but correct observation on most misguided chi-sao
    d) doesn’t generate real knock down power in its strikes, we can disagree on this but boxers have real power in their close range strikes, CLF guys use torque as well to get that power, dragon uses bending and raising at the waist to get that power (I remember a friend of mine saying his master prefers to dragon over wing chun because of the lack or real power)............. this is all too common from air punching eggbeater guys, so correct for the majority but if you dont hit heavy bags /pads, then how do you develop an eye for impact ? another thing is this idea vt hits the chest ?? even in tv shows ??
    VT has a lot of force in torque facing
    Last edited by k gledhill; 08-10-2011 at 05:32 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Wing chun from the Yip mans lineage seems to be:
    a) upright ie very vertical no real level change is used
    b) very close range
    c) no real lateral movement as seem in boxing
    d) a sensitivity game that works a lot on the arms but doesnít really show ways to deal with people using underhooks overhooks body locks etc and finally
    d) doesnít generate real knock down power in its strikes, we can disagree on this but boxers have real power in their close range strikes, CLF guys use torque as well to get that power, dragon uses bending and raising at the waist to get that power (I remember a friend of mine saying his master prefers to dragon over wing chun because of the lack or real power)

    Not all Yip Man lineage Kung Fu is like that mate but granted the majority is!!!! Thats not the fault of Yip Man but all the idiots that have been involved since. Maybe you should do some more research and look outside of your own front door!

    GH

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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    and frost is an expert on VT ? correction what HE thinks is vt , granted most is bad . I would agree with mma views of the 'commercial' downfall of VT to its apparent ease of convincing guys they can fight by doing rolling hands and playing tag trapping , sad but mma has cleared the floor of bs artists

    a) upright ie very vertical no real level change is used ........we can bend at the waist
    b) very close range ...........................................? we kick too
    c) no real lateral movement as seem in boxing..... wrong
    d) a sensitivity game that works a lot on the arms but doesnít really show ways to deal with people using underhooks overhooks body locks etc and finally ...wrong, but correct observation on most misguided chi-sao
    d) doesnít generate real knock down power in its strikes, we can disagree on this but boxers have real power in their close range strikes, CLF guys use torque as well to get that power, dragon uses bending and raising at the waist to get that power (I remember a friend of mine saying his master prefers to dragon over wing chun because of the lack or real power)............. not going to go there
    And this again is another reason MMA guys will pick on wing chun, this whole your wrong we know you are wrong butÖhey we donít need to post clips to prove you are wrong because whilst we feel the need to talk about it at great length we donít feel the need to post clips

    This is also the reason non wing chun guys read this forum there is so much back stabbing and bit^hing about who has the real chun its fun to read

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Not all Yip Man lineage Kung Fu is like that mate but granted the majority is!!!! Thats not the fault of Yip Man but all the idiots that have been involved since. Maybe you should do some more research and look outside of your own front door!

    GH
    or maybe those that talk about how bad other wing chun clans are should post clips so we can see it done right....not compliant clips or non contact clips but real you know gasp sparring and fighting

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    or maybe those that talk about how bad other wing chun clans are should post clips so we can see it done right....not compliant clips or non contact clips but real you know gasp sparring and fighting
    No need to talk anymore. You curious??........go find out for yourself!!!

    GH

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