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Thread: White Crane Image Translations

  1. #1

    White Crane Image Translations

    Once again I am asking for someone to please translate as best they can the following into English:







    I would be most grateful to anyone who can help!

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  2. #2
    This is the core of Fujian White Crane. it is Qigong based.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Go learn with some one who knows, translate is not good enough. translation will not get you there. In my opinion, there is one other important key is missing in the image.



    BTW. Hung Gar doesnt uses this core. Wing Chun Does. YiQuan and Xing Yi has some modified version.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-20-2011 at 04:57 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    These postures look like whats in the Iron Ox Southern Mantis book that i have Sam Loo three guards , Dragon Back , Nine Gate theory, then the book talks about the Kan Jin inch power and Phoenix Eye Fist and a form called Som Bo Fung Nun Kun which is a rare form not taught anymore different than the Som Bo Gin form .

  4. #4
    Hendrick,

    I already know what it says and what it deals with. I am interested in the interpretation of others. Your description "it is Qigong Based" say's nothing at all.

    If your not willing to contribute in a positive way towards any discussion then please refrain from posting.

    Firehawk, my knowledge of Southern Mantis is very little so I will accepts what you have written.

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Minghequan View Post
    Hendrick,

    I already know what it says and what it deals with. I am interested in the interpretation of others. Your description "it is Qigong Based" say's nothing at all.

    If your not willing to contribute in a positive way towards any discussion then please refrain from posting.


    Perhaps, it is your perception not my posting. Perhaps you are expecting something else instead of a friendly equal position positive technical discussion.

    For me, one can have a PHD in Chinese and do 100000X different translation/interpretation, but if one cannot make it works it is useless.

    It is Qigong based says alots for me. it says if one doesnt have the Qigong based foundation one cant handle it and cannot make it works diregards of how one thinks on the saying or mimic the posture. you dont see my point and that is fine.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-21-2011 at 12:59 PM.

  6. #6
    Perhaps, it is your perception not my posting. Perhaps you are expecting something else instead of a friendly equal position positive technical discussion.

    For me, one can have a PHD in Chinese and do 100000X different translation/interpretation, but if one cannot make it works it is useless.

    It is Qigong based says alots for me. it says if one doesnt have the Qigong based foundation one cant handle it and cannot make it works diregards of how one thinks on the saying or mimic the posture. you dont see my point and that is fine.
    Hendrik, once again you come on all self assured. "Friendly equal positive technical discussion?"

    Go learn with some one who knows, translate is not good enough. translation will not get you there. In my opinion, there is one other important key is missing in the image.
    Telling me (or anyone else) to "go learn with someone who knows" is more than just a little haughty and not all that "positive" of a statement!!!

    And what exactly is your "positive technical discussion" or "point" raised??? All you've written is:

    This is the core of Fujian White Crane. it is Qigong based.
    1/. How do you a self confessed non White Crane enthusiast/instructor trainee know of the actual core of Fujian White Crane?

    2/. "it (sic) is Qigong based" .... That's hardly all that "technical" ... Really!

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Minghequan View Post
    Hendrik, once again you come on all self assured. "Friendly equal positive technical discussion?"
    why is that self assured? instead of mutual respect communication?




    Telling me (or anyone else) to "go learn with someone who knows" is more than just a little haughty and not all that "positive" of a statement!!!

    for Chinese Culture, telling one to go learn with someone who knows is actually a positive responsible advice when dealing with complicated in depth topic.


    some western culture dont like this because they believe they already knows everything and no need a teacher.


    As a side topic,
    if I take your view in a traditional Chinese martial artist position, the reaction will be "This person is rude and doesnt know what he is talking about White Crane. why should I even tell him what he doesnt know, wasting my time. just let him to be ignorance as he wish" But I didnt take that position instead I indirectly tell you go learn from some expert, isnt that positive?





    And what exactly is your "positive technical discussion" or "point" raised??? All you've written is:

    1/. How do you a self confessed non White Crane enthusiast/instructor trainee know of the actual core of Fujian White Crane?

    2/. "it (sic) is Qigong based" .... That's hardly all that "technical" ... Really!


    A, The subject can be identify via the White Crane of Fujian classical of 1700 clearly.

    BTW. not a White Crane instructor trainee doesnt mean dont know the core of White Crane of Fujian.

    in fact, lots of Chinese martial artists knows a great deal and great depth on other Chinese art in additional to the system they were train in.

    if one fight them one need to know how to break their core, jamming their power generation engine......





    B, Qigong based is technical for Chinese culture. it means clearly there is a Qigong layer involved instead of just physical posture. there are lots can be discussed via this direction. So, I open this conversation door. but you shut it. That also tell me where do you stand.

    For me, if some one told me it is Qigong based, I would ask him, how come the image is missing an important key to start communication?


    So who can tell me which important key is missing? any body ?


    if we dont assume a
    Friendly equal positive technical discussion there is no communication can be done because everyone will love to think their personal way is the only way right. So let communicate with peace.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-22-2011 at 12:46 PM.

  8. #8
    if you dont know anything about white crane, dont say anything about white crane.

    i dont know anything so i dont run my mouth off like a motherless pok gai.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  9. #9
    Hendrik wrote

    why is that self assured? instead of mutual respect communication?
    Becuase you wrote that you are here for "mutual respect discussion" and of the subject then you attempt to tell me to:

    Go learn with some one who knows
    Hendrik this type of statement apart from being downright rude has you assuming that you are in a position of some authority on the subject of White Crane and that I a person you have never met has no knowledge of the subject and needs to learn from "someone who knows".

    Mate us Aussie's are pretty straight up people so let me be straight up with you ... You don't know me, you don't know anything about my training, my research, who my connections etc are yet you stand on high and tell me to "Go learn with some one who knows"

    Tell me Hendrik, how exactly is that is "mutual respectful discussion" and "Friendly equal positive technical discussion?".

    No mate, that is grandstanding and just plain rude.

    for Chinese Culture, telling one to go learn with someone who knows is actually a positive responsible advice when dealing with complicated in depth topic.


    some western culture dont like this because they believe they already knows everything and no need a teacher.


    As a side topic,
    if I take your view in a traditional Chinese martial artist position, the reaction will be "This person is rude and doesnt know what he is talking about White Crane. why should I even tell him what he doesnt know, wasting my time. just let him to be ignorance as he wish" But I didnt take that position instead I indirectly tell you go learn from some expert, isnt that positive?
    Okay Hendrik, you have made a statement that this is Chinese culture:

    1/. Please cite direct verifiable evidence that what you are saying is true.

    2/. What exactly is your involvement/learning within Chinese Culture that has led you to make such a statement. Please state who in Chinese Culture you learned this from? (Perhaps Bawang can attest as to if this is "Chinese Culture" or not?).

    3/. You read and speak Chinese fluently do you? Can you read Chinese? If not, then what is the source of your "translations" and knowledge?

    Please take the time to answer these questions as put to you.

    This is a English forum. It is not Chinese. Are you Chinese Hendrik??? I ask without being rude as your command of English does not seem all that accomplished. Please answer!

    A, The subject can be identify via the White Crane of Fujian classical of 1700 clearly.

    BTW. not a White Crane instructor trainee doesnt mean dont know the core of White Crane of Fujian.

    in fact, lots of Chinese martial artists knows a great deal and great depth on other Chinese art in additional to the system they were train in.

    if one fight them one need to know how to break their core, jamming their power generation engine......


    B, Qigong based is technical for Chinese culture. it means clearly there is a Qigong layer involved instead of just physical posture. there are lots can be discussed via this direction. So, I open this conversation door. but you shut it. That also tell me where do you stand.

    For me, if some one told me it is Qigong based, I would ask him, how come the image is missing an important key to start communication?


    So who can tell me which important key is missing? any body ?


    if we dont assume a
    Friendly equal positive technical discussion there is no communication can be done because everyone will love to think their personal way is the only way right. So let communicate with peace.
    Hendrik, you talk in riddles saying alot about ... nothing. Cut to the chase man and answer the questions as put to you.

    I find it rude as would most of the Chinese Shifu I know for one from outside of the clan, sect, school, guan to tell someone inside the clan, sect, school, guan how their art should work and how they should they should train in same!

    Then you drop a comment that really says nothing all that special or contributes to the subject at hand :

    it is Qigong based.
    Like duh! Mate a great deal of Fujian White Crane is "Qigong based" ... tell me something new!

    Then you come on all superior and state:

    In my opinion, there is one other important key is missing in the image
    Well then what is it??? Seeing as your raised this possibility then perhaps you will "enlighten" us all and tell us what it is? But when you do tell us what exactly is "Missing" please cite how you know this from your extensive knowledge in Fujian White Crane.


    if we dont assume a
    Friendly equal positive technical discussion there is no communication can be done because everyone will love to think their personal way is the only way right. So let communicate with peace.
    I await your replies and answers in the hope of friendly mutual exchange and communication ............

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  10. #10
    we certainly have a very different wave length. so I decide to not continous on this conversation. Thanks.

  11. #11
    Hendrick, running away and not answering what a purely very simple and direct questions just makes it look like you've something to hide or you cannot answer the questions.

    I'm not trying to "burn" you. I'm just trying to understand where your views are coming from, hence my questions to you.

    1/. Please cite direct verifiable evidence that what you are saying is true.

    2/. What exactly is your involvement/learning within Chinese Culture that has led you to make such a statement. Please state who in Chinese Culture you learned this from? (Perhaps Bawang can attest as to if this is "Chinese Culture" or not?).

    3/. You read and speak Chinese fluently do you? Can you read Chinese? If not, then what is the source of your "translations" and knowledge?

    Please take the time to answer these questions as put to you.
    In my opinion, there is one other important key is missing in the image

    Well then what is it??? Seeing as your raised this possibility then perhaps you will "enlighten" us all and tell us what it is? But when you do tell us what exactly is "Missing" please cite how you know this from your extensive knowledge in Fujian White Crane.
    These are not invasive questions nor are they an attempt to put you down so I don't see why you have to take your bat and ball and go home??? Just enlighten me as to your background knowledge in relation to the written statements made by you. Is that too much to ask?

    Moving on,



    Upper joint suspends shoulder - The shoulder joints or also termed more accurately as shoulder blades are loose when met with opposing force. This is being use to 'escape' the coming onslaught. At the same time, the shoulder blades are use to generate a small amount of force back into the opponent and thus causing them to contract their muscle ever so slightly, which is sufficient for us to work on it to get and advantage.


    Body maintains 'emptiness' in the upper part & solidness in the lower part so that hand & body will be flexible & varied - The base is solid is because of the connection between the hands (contact point) and the feet and Dan Tian. When there is trueDan Tian (lower Dan Tian that is, there are three Dan Tian's) then naturally the upper body will be empty and thus can change direction as and when the opponent changes his/hers direction. BUT one MUST NOT loose power in the course of changing directions! BUT also MUST NOT stiffen up either!


    Sinking into water. Floating amidst sinking. (Sinking can be hanging down, involves dropping) - The phrase 'sinking into water' is only half correct. Imagine this, that there is a waterfall of Qi cascading down INSIDE your own body. As it flows down inside the body of yours, which acts like a jar, it collects water as it slowly fills up the human jar. This visualization of fill-up is the onset of the building up of chi at the Dan Tian. Once Qi is accumulated at the lower Dan Tian, then from there is can be directed to any direction you so desire. The floating amidst sinking is the same as above pointer, because there is contact with the hands, and the shoulder blades are loose, the fullness of the Dan Tian causes one to be (so called) solid, thus the floating feeling is the emptiness of the upper body. This allows one to turn the upper body 180 degrees and still with power stored in the Dan Tian, hands, legs etc. White Crane is a semi-soft art, and thus the coccyx is 'dropped' not raised. This dropping of the coccyx causes the spine to elongate and as said in the classics, and elongated or strait spine is a strong spine or a strong person. Science has proven what the classics knew all along, that vertical is the strongest frame to be in. With energy at the crown, pressure / Qi at the lower Dan Tian, looseness in the middle torso, what is left is an 'empty feeling at the gut and/or intestines area. This can be expressed or felt by another person as turning of the stomach. An untrained person, when he/she walks, can feel the pressure from the heavy body, which is just a weight thing. However, when a fully trained person walks, there is a 'sense' (or sensation) that the stomach is such in without using any effort in doing so. Because the energy is 'around' the crown area and thus, the intestines 'seem' to be raised. But if you actually read the classics, there seems to be a mention of 'lifting' the spirit, this is not as though one goes to help a friend in distress and helps to lift their spirit. This lifting is an energy lift.


    Horse stance - There is a verse that says 'Too low - jing (power) broken' (太底劲断) (pronounced as 'tai di jin duan'). It is not the stances that matters but rather the strong connection between the feet and the ground, together with the deep mind, this produces internal power - Jin!


    Heavenly will intersect. Descending Qi (exhalation) enters the Dan Tian - It is true that exhalation does increase the power in the Dan Tian BUT this is the Daoist way of breathing or aka Reverse Breathing. The Natural Way Breathing way is opposite, which is not the right technique to apply when training White Crane. It does damage and/or slows down the improvement of the student. The heavenly represents the upper Dan Tian which is locate at the crown of the head. Actually it is not enters but rather 'accumulates' as with two points above.

    Middle joint swallows & falls. End point Willow Branch -The middle joint is somewhere between the middle Dan Tian (earth) and lower Dan Tian (man), the falling is by the induction of the deep mind and relaxation of the muscle throughout the body. Willow Branch would carry the meaning of a 'Yielding' nature, only those whose can produce Jin in the lowerDan tian can possess this Willow Branch characteristics.


    Circulate throughout the body, allow to flow freely to the limbs - Circulation is not random, it is directed by the deep mind, together with the body performing the right movements. As mentioned, Qi accumulation at the lower Dan Tian and be directed to any part of the body, not just the limbs.

    Qi sink to the Dan Tian - It should be more like stored in the Dan Tian and ready to use at an instance.

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Minghequan View Post
    Hendrick, running away and not answering what a purely very simple and direct questions just makes it look like you've something to hide or you cannot answer the questions.

    I'm not trying to "burn" you. I'm just trying to understand where your views are coming from, hence my questions to you.


    we are just different type of people looking things in a very different angle as I have described in my previous posts. you will not like it if I tell you what happen.

    Best Regards
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-24-2011 at 12:30 AM.

  13. #13
    Hendrik,

    Please go ahead and share your views. We are all here to learn, not beat each other down.

    Please share what you know about the White Crane of 方七娘 (Fang Chi-Niang/Fang Qiniang) and her teaching in 1700!!! I am ready to hear ALL you have to say about her teachings and from where you received this information. Please Share!

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  14. #14
    Join Date
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    Something missing ?

    Hi, just moving back, Hendrik is correct about something missing.... you show pages nine and eleven, but what happened to page ten ?.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Minghequan View Post
    Hendrik,

    Please go ahead and share your views. We are all here to learn, not beat each other down.

    Please share what you know about the White Crane of 方七娘 (Fang Chi-Niang/Fang Qiniang) and her teaching in 1700!!! I am ready to hear ALL you have to say about her teachings and from where you received this information. Please Share!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKKcxB5MwY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjVHoRd0fn4

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