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Thread: Where are all the Complete Monkey Style systems?

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    When our students get caught up in the poetic names of techniques, we tell them, "Y'know that's just the cultural frame of reference in the old days. If that were invented now, it would be called left right beyotch slap grab and beat the sh#7 out of him." "300 years from now, people would be debating the meaning of beyotch slap and pimp slap."
    Too funny I like your style - almost poetic.





    This really is how I communicate some of the techniques though. It's all about frame of reference. Sometimes I think we get caught up in trying to out Chinese the Chinese. Meaning we lose the spirit is search of something that was never intended to be there.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    I was hoping to get a bit more intellegent responses in this forum. Although there are many other ppes that have info on Monkey style, mightyb has it right.... too many meatheads up there. Also was looking to see any relationship with the Mantis Monkey and it's Monkey backround.

    It's getting late for me now... gotta put the kids to bed and I will add more tommorrow. Good posts guys thx

    ginosifu

    The good thing is on this forum there are quite a few posters that have the ability to look up the information in the original manuscripts. Hopefully they can find some point of reference. I have a feeling though that maybe you stumbled onto one of those things that people may have taken for granted and it may be lost to antiquity. Lets hope not.

  3. #18
    I have to admit I love the poetic names and the culture behind the systems. Its a big part of what makes it an Art.

    But, I have to agree with N its just what they referenced at the time. they had no video cameras at the time so they passed on the techniques with forms amoung other things. Why not put a little bling in the form to make it more artistic and fun? The bad part about it people arnt sure where the art stops and the real world stuff comes in....you know the gray area in forms.

    Mooying doesnt have to move like a monkey he is big enough and strong enough to pull someone apart like a big gorrilla.....that is meant to be a compliment by the way Yeah, I dont see you wasting time with the show stuff.

  4. #19
    i feel as though i must apologize to mooying. i didn't mean to waste anyone's time with a post that was "pointless." i was trying to stimulate the conversation so as to uncover more information (and for that, i believe i have been successful).

    you obviously have more experience than i (you have been teaching longer than i have been alive). and i am happy to know that traditional houquan is alive and well in the US. your knowledge of the subject speaks for itself.

    i do, however, have one request. if you have any videos of you performing your style, i would very much like you to share them with us. if i have been misguided in what i believed traditional houquan to be, i would like to see an example of the real thing.

  5. #20
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    Bai Yuan in Tanglang is a person, not actually an animal. More like a person nicknamed after the animal (but possessing animal spirit), but a figure kind of in the twilight of legend and history. The 'monkey' footwork in Tanglang is AKA 'yuanhou'. The larger monkey that is called an ape (but is not actually an ape), is sometimes called 'mahou'. Sometimes this yuan - 'ape' is mistranslated as gibbon, which is actually an ape. There are gibbons in China but this one is not a gibbon. The Bai Yuan legend in TLQ is not exclusive to our system. Of course most obviously it is in common with Tongbei/bi. The footwork comes from a style that was influenced by the spirit or essence of the monkey/ape, and is therefore not exactly mimic. As far as traditional monkey' styles' in China, of course they exist. Again, they are generally like Tanglang and reflect essence or spirit rather than directly mimic, however there are others that also contain elements of mimicry and are not modern wushu.

    BT
    Last edited by B.Tunks; 09-14-2011 at 05:30 PM.

  6. #21
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    Although i agree some get caught up in poetic names, some are loaded with meaning and intent. The average practitioner probably has no need to know but transmitters have something of an obligation.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Tunks View Post
    Bai Yuan in Tanglang is a person, not actually an animal. More like a person nicknamed after the animal (but possessing animal spirit), but a figure kind of in the twilight of legend and history. The 'monkey' footwork in Tanglang is 'yuanhou' - the larger monkey that is called an ape (but is not actually an ape), and is sometimes called 'mahou'. Sometimes this yuan - 'ape' is mistranslated as gibbon, which is actually an ape. There are gibbons in China but this one is not a gibbon.
    Did Bai Yuan bring the Monkey footwork to Tang Lang? Or was he just a character that exemplified Monkey spirit? The Monkey footwork brought into Mantis.... is the original style still in existance? Or maybe was it just some techniques of Monkey style footwork?

    The reason I bring this up is that the Monkey I practice (from mooyingmantis) is from a tail less monkey. Tail less Monkeys include Gibbons, Apes, Chimpanzes and Gorillas.

    Here are a few Monkey clips. These are less modern day wushu stuff but still not the old traditional Monkey I am looking to find:

    Drunken Monkey

    Lost Monkey TSPK

    South East Asian Monkey

    More South East Asian Monkey style

    I have not really found any old school Monkey. Most stuff on the net today is wushu stuff and not what I am looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by kristcaldwell View Post
    i do, however, have one request. if you have any videos of you performing your style, i would very much like you to share them with us. if i have been misguided in what i believed traditional houquan to be, i would like to see an example of the real thing.
    Here is a clip of me doing some parts of the forms and some applications:

    Angry Monkey Fist Hand Forms

    ginosifu

  8. #23
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    The Angry Monkey Fist that I practice is rooted in Northern Shaolin basics. I have been practicing the Northern Shaolin lineage of Gu Ru Zhang (Ku Ye Cheong) for over 20 years and can see many similarities in movement and theory of both systems. I have over the years practiced 7 Star Praying Mantis but have not reached a high level yet. I also can see a general resemblance to Praying Mantis style (on a very basic level).

    The Angry Monkey system itself very little itching and scratching and eating fleas and more emphasis on fighting tactics. If you look at any of the more traditional Monkey forms and look past the animal mimicry, you can see the emphasis of the style and what techniques the may employ. Here are some more tradtional looking Monkey Forms:

    Tien Shan Pai Monkey

    Shaolin Temple Ape - Monkey Boxing

    I think these guys are out of Kentucky somewhere

    Mantis Monkey Form?

    Again look past the antics and see the Monkeys tactics... are they their? Or is it just kung fu techniques with some monkey flavor added?

    ginosifu

    ps forgot this one

    Kung Fu Master
    Last edited by ginosifu; 09-14-2011 at 09:08 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    In 1564 Governor Zheng, Ruo-zengs wrote a whole chapter on the "The 36 Tactics of the Monkey style" in his book "Posting as Governor South of the Yangtze River.
    ginosifu
    Zheng Ruozeng(1505-1580),was involved in coastal defense against Japanese pirates. In 1562 published Chu Hai Tu Bian-A Maritime Historical Survey
    This book was reissued in 1592 & 1624 MINUS Zheng Ruozeng's name. Instead replaced with the name Hu Zongxian.

    I have not been able to uncover other information of Zheng Ruozeng's published material. Where can I find it?

  10. #25
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    found it

    The book is called Jiang Nan Jing Lue, I would translate that into something like Introduction to the South of the River. Jiang Nan being a common term in Chinese.

    I don't have this book in my collection. I was under the impression that it is a list of martial arts, not an explanation.

    The reference to Monkey is Hou quan 36 lu, which means 36 Roads of Monkey Fist. The choice of using the word "tactic" for "road is an interesting one.

    The list of martial arts in this book is long including such names as
    • Zhao Family Fist
      Southern Fist
      Can Family's Northern Fist
      Six Roads of Xi Family Fist
      Zhang Fei's 4 Roads of Divine Fist


    The list goes on and on.

    The most interesting being
    9 gun 18 die da zhua na- Nine Rolls and 18 Falls of Strikes beatings and siezing

    A form which existed in old Mantis though I have not found its existance in present day.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kristcaldwell View Post
    i feel as though i must apologize to mooying. i didn't mean to waste anyone's time with a post that was "pointless." i was trying to stimulate the conversation so as to uncover more information (and for that, i believe i have been successful).

    you obviously have more experience than i (you have been teaching longer than i have been alive). and i am happy to know that traditional houquan is alive and well in the US. your knowledge of the subject speaks for itself.

    i do, however, have one request. if you have any videos of you performing your style, i would very much like you to share them with us. if i have been misguided in what i believed traditional houquan to be, i would like to see an example of the real thing.
    Kristcaldwell,
    Sorry, "pointless" was a poor choice of words. I meant no offense, but after rereading what I wrote I see that I came off like an a$$. My apologies.

    No, I do not have any videos of me performing our forms. However, I am sure there are others out there who attended the Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships or the Hall of Fame Open International Chinese Martial Arts Championship in the past that may have videotaped my part of the Master's Demos. If so, I hope they will upload a clip to YouTube.

    Gino posted a link to his DVD trailer that shows a few of the techniques of our style taken straight from the forms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKuZpw8tteM

    The July/August 2010 issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine has an article about the fighting strategies of our style. These will give you an idea of what we do and how we do it.

    Mantid1,
    Thank you for your kind words! Though I think you over-rate me. LOL!
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  12. #27
    thank you for the link...but it was just enough to make me want to see more (guess i'll be buying some DVDs)!

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    Did Bai Yuan bring the Monkey footwork to Tang Lang? Or was he just a character that exemplified Monkey spirit? The Monkey footwork brought into Mantis.... is the original style still in existance? Or maybe was it just some techniques of Monkey style footwork?

    The reason I bring this up is that the Monkey I practice (from mooyingmantis) is from a tail less monkey. Tail less Monkeys include Gibbons, Apes, Chimpanzes and Gorillas.
    Bai Yuan is two things, a mythological/historical figure and a system of long boxing which is both linked to this figure and influenced by the physical characteristics of apes or monkeys. The footwork doesn't come from the person. Most likely this footwork in Tanglang comes from Tongbei AKA Bai Yuan Tongbei.

    There are no true apes (the only true ape is the Gibbon) in central or Northern China - where these styles originated. They are found only in the south - Yunnan. They were once found in Central China too but have been extinct there since about the 10th century and were almost certainly a different species from what is left today. Yuan became the generic name for big monkeys with very short or next to no tails, such as the Stump-tailed macaque. Apart from Tongbei, most monkey boxing seems to relates to these monkeys (macaques). Obviously there are no chimp or gorilla type apes in China and there hasn't been any since Gigantopithecus.

    Maybe your style is based on the gibbon and possibly related to Tongbei? I have no idea. Nu Hou Quan isn't found in China so the people that first taught it in America would have the best idea about it's origins and the particular primate it's modelled on.

    BT

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Tunks View Post
    Apart from Tongbei, most monkey boxing seems to relates to these monkeys (macaques).

    BT
    I seem to remember my sifu saying something like this about the monkey we have in black tiger... there is very little mimicking (eating fleas or facial expression) but, you can tell it's definitely monkey!
    少林黑虎門
    Sil Lum Hak Fu Mun
    RIP Kuen "Fred" Woo (sifu)

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Tunks View Post
    Bai Yuan is two things, a mythological/historical figure and a system of long boxing which is both linked to this figure and influenced by the physical characteristics of apes or monkeys. The footwork doesn't come from the person. Most likely this footwork in Tanglang comes from Tongbei AKA Bai Yuan Tongbei.

    There are no true apes (the only true ape is the Gibbon) in central or Northern China - where these styles originated. They are found only in the south - Yunnan. They were once found in Central China too but have been extinct there since about the 10th century and were almost certainly a different species from what is left today. Yuan became the generic name for big monkeys with very short or next to no tails, such as the Stump-tailed macaque. Apart from Tongbei, most monkey boxing seems to relates to these monkeys (macaques). Obviously there are no chimp or gorilla type apes in China and there hasn't been any since Gigantopithecus.

    Maybe your style is based on the gibbon and possibly related to Tongbei? I have no idea. Nu Hou Quan isn't found in China so the people that first taught it in America would have the best idea about it's origins and the particular primate it's modelled on.

    BT
    Good info... thank you. The Nu Hou Quan is supposed to have come from Shanxi province. Isn't there a reference to Tong Bei coming from somewhere in Shanxi or near there?

    ginosifu

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