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Thread: Alan Orr Wing Chun questions

  1. #151
    Martial artists who fail to use the elbow as weapons? Seriously?

    Basics of Wing Chun are use EVERYTHING you can as weapons (anatomically and environmentally - kitchen sinks included!)

    Suki
    "From a psychological point of view, demons represent the universal equivalents of the dark, cruel, animal depths of the mind. When we as martial artists are preparing ourselves to overcome our fear of domination at the hands of an opponent, we must go deep within our inner being and allow the darkest parts of ourselves to be revealed. In order to battle the monsters in an abyss, we must sometimes unleash the demon within" http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha_Fist View Post
    There are different ways to transition from delivering an elbow to punching. Depends again on position and situation, there is no magic general formula. One way is to push somebody out of balance while simultaneously going over to punching without giving up space. Another way is to step back flanking with simulaneous punch and any other support action if necessary (Lin Siu Dai Da).
    I was discussing the point you made that implied going back from elbow distance to punching distance, instead of simply opting for an elbow strike. Just want to say that if you do that against certain Wing Chun exponents, they will "listen", follow you and run you over. Other styles such as Chow Gar will also run you over and destroy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha_Fist View Post
    Sparring will put you continuously in zillion different situations based on mutual positioning, distance, timing, etc. The plan is to constantly adapt to this everchanging scenario by being flexible yet following strategies that maximize output (attack) and minimize risk. We adapt on the way of our attack, trying to avoid reactive situations where your reaction will always be a step behind the attack you are receiving (reaction lag is a bitch...). Adaptation includes swift, flexible, and adaptive footwork in all directions. Just look at the pro's in any contact sport...
    A lot of that makes sense, but the going back bit I am not familiar with. I can see in a sporting context where the fight has sparring elements, but the last thing you want to do in the street is to turn the fight into a sparring match, when the guy may use the opportunity to pull out a weapon or even be joined by his friends.

    I am not saying that going back is necessarily wrong (depending on what circumstances dictate), but just how I have been taught. Also, I do not see the logic of your statement that implied that moving out of elbow range and opting for a fist attack was preferable.
    Last edited by Hardwork108; 12-11-2011 at 01:02 PM.

  3. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Best post so far! Very nice.

    I know many schools of wing chun that only chain punch and front kick lol You see it all the time. When I say we have 8 basic kicks to start with and many punching methods they say thats not wing chun lol crazy.

    Wing Chun not just centre line and chain punch!
    I know what you mean, Alan. I saw one school in London that used just the straight punch. I asked their sifu about the variety of punches they used and he just said that they used the basic straight punch. They had no conditioning training and no hard sparring.

    They were nice guys and everything, but I did not see how they could use their stuff in a serious fight.

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Y'know what's even more scary??

    It is for exactly the reasons you mention that Ip Man himself was criticized and shunned by some of his own peers.

    He wasn't the only person around that knew decent Wing Chun and maybe it was just his personality and character that enabled him to survive in HK teaching for a living. It is down to the next generations to see if what he accomplished has done us all any harm, but fwiw I think it was needed at the time.

    Today, we need to be a little more open to understand exactly what went on, and we need the people that were there to be more honest for once.
    Agreed. I have always asked my sifu about the Ip Man wing chun. My sifu has always been respectful towards Ip Man, but he did tell me that Ip Man took a lot of fundamental stuff out. Stuff that we train in our Mainland Chinese Lineage. These include a great variety of hand (hand, fist, claw, palm, elbow) techniques; Chin-na; Kicking/Knee techniques, etc. The more advanced students take some of the style's techniques and principles to the ground, I guess, using a similar mindset and manner to sifu Mike Patterson's Hsing I training in Taiwan.

    So, I see Wing Chun as a complete fighting system, and I believe that the same is true with other major older kung fu styles, while at the same time I observe people cutting bits and pieces out of it.

    Many of these people are not qualified masters to start with, and if they were, then their motives, just like those of Ip Man, should still be questioned and as you implied, honestly answered.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    Agreed. I have always asked my sifu about the Ip Man wing chun. My sifu has always been respectful towards Ip Man, but he did tell me that Ip Man took a lot of fundamental stuff out. Stuff that we train in our Mainland Chinese Lineage. These include a great variety of hand (hand, fist, claw, palm, elbow) techniques; Chin-na; Kicking/Knee techniques, etc...

    So, I see Wing Chun as a complete fighting system, and I believe that the same is true with other major older kung fu styles, while at the same time I observe people cutting bits and pieces out of it.

    It's all a matter of perspective. According to legend, Wing Chun evolved from Shaolin. It's defining characteristic is its efficiency, by trimming out highly specialized, "low percentage" movements the system became more lean and streamlined. It does not surprize me that some older branches are less streamlined and retain more of the old, Shaolin qualities.

    I prefer the lean, streamlined approach. Yet, there is a point when being too lean starts to become unhealthy, even anorexic. The branch of the Yip Man lineage I have trained is no where near that point. We use a range of kicks, punches, elbows, knees, grapples, sweeps and throws... but all are derived from the same simple principles. My old Sifu also insisted that it is "a complete system". However, realistically, I believe that it is more complete in some areas than others. And that's OK. I'd rather work within those limitations than study an art that tries to do everything and fails.
    Last edited by Grumblegeezer; 12-11-2011 at 02:14 PM.
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    To better utilize opportunities with a given technique, the elbow strike in this case, one needs to drill that given technique, until it becomes second nature, so that you will automatically use it as the opportunity arises. I thought that was basic knowledge.

    By the way, all fighters should be "opportunistic". That is, you take opportunities as they arise, as well as creating them when possible. How else are you going to fight?

    I can just see another new lineage of Wing Chun being born - "The Opportunistic Lineage", subheaded "We hit when there is an opportunity and we don't, when there isn't! Come and learn our street effective 'modern no-nonsense' system". LOL!
    I don't think that anybody stated that there are no drills for use of elbow strikes. Ving Tsun uses the elbow strike where it is the idoneous tool. Drills help you recognize when and how.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    I was discussing the point you made that implied going back from elbow distance to punching distance, instead of simply opting for an elbow strike. Just want to say that if you do that against certain Wing Chun exponents, they will "listen", follow you and run you over. Other styles such as Chow Gar will also run you over and destroy.

    A lot of that makes sense, but the going back bit I am not familiar with. I can see in a sporting context where the fight has sparring elements, but the last thing you want to do in the street is to turn the fight into a sparring match, when the guy may use the opportunity to pull out a weapon or even be joined by his friends.

    I am not saying that going back is necessarily wrong (depending on what circumstances dictate), but just how I have been taught. Also, I do not see the logic of your statement that implied that moving out of elbow range and opting for a fist attack was preferable. !
    I understand you are currently in Colombia. When will you be back in the US for vacation? I can travel within the US and show you practically. We can discuss things for hours on the forum that can be practically demonstrated in a minute or two. No challenge implied, just trying to avoid going unnecessarily in circles - time is precious!
    Dio perdona... Io no!

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha_Fist View Post
    I don't think that anybody stated that there are no drills for use of elbow strikes. Ving Tsun uses the elbow strike where it is the idoneous tool. Drills help you recognize when and how.
    I believe that other PB students or lineage members said that they did not train elbow (nor the knee) strikes in their schools.

    There is a thread on the subject matter of elbows and knees in this forum. Have a look and you will see. Even in this very thread, the use of elbows seems to have been dismissed by at least one PB clan member, Kgredhill.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha_Fist View Post
    I understand you are currently in Colombia. When will you be back in the US for vacation? I can travel within the US and show you practically. We can discuss things for hours on the forum that can be practically demonstrated in a minute or two. No challenge implied, just trying to avoid going unnecessarily in circles - time is precious!
    It would really be nice to touch hands and learn about other WC approaches, but I am not originally from the US either and my next forseeable travel plans are to Rio de Janeiro, next year.

    I can understand that your approach may work, specially now that at least in your training you say you train your elbows and I assume the knee strikes for combat. It is just that I could not get my head around the "making distance to use the fist" concept, when one is in elbow striking range, specially when you say that (unlike your PB brothers) you train your elbows.

    Anyway, it may be a case of different strokes, but when it comes to not going back (as a strategy), I have seen this principle in my Southern Mantis training, as well as one other traditional kung fu school that trained a different style, during my time in London. So, it is not an uncommon idea in traditional kung fu circles.

  8. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    It's all a matter of perspective. According to legend, Wing Chun evolved from Shaolin. It's defining characteristic is its efficiency, by trimming out highly specialized, "low percentage" movements the system became more lean and streamlined. It does not surprize me that some older branches are less streamlined and retain more of the old, Shaolin qualities.

    I prefer the lean, streamlined approach. Yet, there is a point when being too lean starts to become unhealthy, even anorexic. The branch of the Yip Man lineage I have trained is no where near that point. We use a range of kicks, punches, elbows, knees, grapples, sweeps and throws... but all are derived from the same simple principles. My old Sifu also insisted that it is "a complete system". However, realistically, I believe that it is more complete in some areas than others. And that's OK. I'd rather work within those limitations than study an art that tries to do everything and fails.
    I believe that the emphasis on wing chun's efficiency, or it being more efficient than other kung fu styles is mostly a marketing ploy. I doubt that there is a single inefficient major kung fu style out there. There are only inefficient (or unqualified) instructors.

    Also, saying that Wing Chun is a trimmed down and more efficient Shaolin fighting art, implies that it is superior to the other styles, and for most part WC, the way it is practiced by most, is not surperior to arts such as the Northern Mantis, Southern Mantis, Fujian White Crane, Hsing I, Paguazhang, Tai Chi, Five Ancestor Fist, Pak Mei, to name a few. Of course, the world being what it is, most people do not practice the latter styles properly either, hence people get away with their marketing slogans, without being challenged, etc.

    Some of the arts mentioned above train their body unity on a deeper level than to that of most Wing Chun, hence they can generate incredible "soft" power, that will not be absorbed or redirectec by your everyday Wing Chuner. Some of these styles also train a type of shock power (based on their distinct body unity) that is a lot more penetrative and damaging than the usual Wing Chun short power.

    Despite popular belief, there is a lot of TCMA methodogies out there that are not very well known, so one must be vary of marketing slogans.....

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    I believe that other PB students or lineage members said that they did not train elbow (nor the knee) strikes in their schools.

    There is a thread on the subject matter of elbows and knees in this forum. Have a look and you will see. Even in this very thread, the use of elbows seems to have been dismissed by at least one PB clan member, Kgredhill.

    It would really be nice to touch hands and learn about other WC approaches, but I am not originally from the US either and my next forseeable travel plans are to Rio de Janeiro, next year.

    I can understand that your approach may work, specially now that at least in your training you say you train your elbows and I assume the knee strikes for combat. It is just that I could not get my head around the "making distance to use the fist" concept, when one is in elbow striking range, specially when you say that (unlike your PB brothers) you train your elbows.

    Anyway, it may be a case of different strokes, but when it comes to not going back (as a strategy), I have seen this principle in my Southern Mantis training, as well as one other traditional kung fu school that trained a different style, during my time in London. So, it is not an uncommon idea in traditional kung fu circles.
    Kevin stressed that it's not the weapon of choice, which is true. Nonetheless there are drills. We went through several of them just in the most recent full week training camp with Philipp in Spain. No biggie.

    He viajado con anterioridad varias veces a América Latina, por lo cual voy a procurar en el futuro hacer una pequeña escala en Colombia, en dónde tengo varios amigos. Va a ser más práctico que discutir en foros con pura teoría.
    Dio perdona... Io no!

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    I believe that the emphasis on wing chun's efficiency, or it being more efficient than other kung fu styles is mostly a marketing ploy. I doubt that there is a single inefficient major kung fu style out there. There are only inefficient (or unqualified) instructors.

    Also, saying that Wing Chun is a trimmed down and more efficient Shaolin fighting art, implies that it is superior to the other styles, and for most part WC, the way it is practiced by most, is not surperior to arts such as the Northern Mantis, Southern Mantis, Fujian White Crane, Hsing I, Paguazhang, Tai Chi, Five Ancestor Fist, Pak Mei, to name a few. Of course, the world being what it is, most people do not practice the latter styles properly either, hence people get away with their marketing slogans, without being challenged, etc.

    Some of the arts mentioned above train their body unity on a deeper level than to that of most Wing Chun, hence they can generate incredible "soft" power, that will not be absorbed or redirectec by your everyday Wing Chuner. Some of these styles also train a type of shock power (based on their distinct body unity) that is a lot more penetrative and damaging than the usual Wing Chun short power.

    Despite popular belief, there is a lot of TCMA methodogies out there that are not very well known, so one must be vary of marketing slogans.....

    I really like this post. Many people forget what Chinese Martial Arts has already.

    The soft power is key to building a higher level. Some Wing Chun style's think soft means no focus on hard training or sparring. In fact soft skill is making the opponents pressure not effect your structure. You are still rooted and strong, your opponent feels they can not move you but also can not find your centre - that is the centre line I use lol

    For me the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system has a good balance between using soft skills and hard skills, as really they are one. Its the skill of changing pressures at the right time that produce this type of feeling in movement. The hard is only the feeling the opponent has when you hit. This is when you release power, not before by being relaxed not tense. Which is often hard for guys that have never developed it too see in action. I only say this as many people I have met in Wing Chun lack this skill. Not all, but a lot. Most other Chinese Martial Arts have these skills some Wing Chun styles can often be lazy. So its good to test and exchange to make sure you are on the right path. It was many years of training before I started to find the answers and even then I tested them and still do.

  11. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    Don't kid yourself. Most people who post in the Wing Chun threads do not really practice Wing Chun!

    The same is true for those who post in the other kung fu threads. Just face it, GENUINE kung fu kwoons are really hard to come by nowadays, hence the epidemic or cluelessness as regards any discussion regarding actual TCMA methodologies!

    Keep an eye out for my own new and up and coming lineage of wing chun, that does not use hand,nor leg strikes. I have simplified wing chun to make it more "street effective". So, in sticking to this art's Central Line principles, we only use the only TRUE Central Line weapon on the human body - the head butt! Yes, ours is the real wing chun.

    Because of its simplicity you can teach this system in a matter of weeks, hence more money making potetial, and less student drop out rates. All you would need to do is pay me - the Greatest Grand Master of All Great Grandmasters (including their own Grandmasters) my "reasonable" commission.

    Would you like to join our organization?
    Hardwork108, I agree with what you say. It's really upsetting to see people use Wing Chun as a selling tool. For example; I don't know if you've seen this video, ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk3WPHKAMyg ) where this 18 (open) Hands Lohan grandmaster has come out to apologize to the Wing Chun world, for his misleading and fabricated statements. I think the Wing Chun world needs to acknowledge his apology from the 18 Lohan community. His voice represents and admits (at Video time marker 9:18) that he was only thinking about helping his student to live, through teaching kung fu. His student asked him to support him because using the Wing Chun name is good marketing. His student tried with other names, but had no progress at all. At the time, the grandmaster was just thinking how he could help his student feed his family, without considering the effect and consequences of his statements. Now, he is sorry about making false statements and false interviews. Regardless of his mistakes, I think the man, GM Tio, has a lot of honor to come out and admit the truth. He shared his real intentions during the time he was coached to make the statements by his student. Unfortunately many people don't know the consequences of his participation in helping his student to form this fabricated Wing Chun. I don't think they are aware that his student is now charging uninformed people up to $128,000 to set them up with this fake Wing Chun system. GM Tio's heart seems to be genuine. I feel bad for him. He seems want to protect 18 Lohan and Wing Chun people from becoming victims of that student's marketing scheme. There is more information at this link, (vtmshaolinbull5hit.blogspot.com ) for people who are unaware.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    Agreed. I have always asked my sifu about the Ip Man wing chun. My sifu has always been respectful towards Ip Man, but he did tell me that Ip Man took a lot of fundamental stuff out. Stuff that we train in our Mainland Chinese Lineage. These include a great variety of hand (hand, fist, claw, palm, elbow) techniques; Chin-na; Kicking/Knee techniques, etc. The more advanced students take some of the style's techniques and principles to the ground, I guess, using a similar mindset and manner to sifu Mike Patterson's Hsing I training in Taiwan.
    How about considering how I feel lol!!??

    My Sigung was the first European representative of Ip Man and yet he had much more to his learning and curriculums than he was asked/allowed to promote. So he taught only Ip Man Wing Chun until his sons took over after his death. Actually he even promoted Ip Chun here in the UK as they were very close (back then!)

    I would consider the Wing Chun I know to be simply Wing Chun. I don't like labelling it mainland or HK or whatever, because back in my Sigungs day there was only Wing Chun, and that's the way I believe it should be. Even though I mention Lee Shing Family all the time, and have even adopted the term 'Lee Shing Wing Chun' I don't like using it because what I know isn't 'his' version (if anything it's his students interpretation!) There was never an 'individuals' version of Wing Chun before Ip Man as far as I know.

    But even after promoting Ip Man in the beginning we are side lined now by the Ip family, and I have even heard from at least 3 reliable Sources that Ip Chun talks quite badly about Lee Shing these days! Perhaps his memory has been lost. Perhaps he still holds ill feeling because it was my Sigung who released the first ever 108 Wooden Man book lol! Either way, we too are on our own and this is because we have a wider, more traditional curriculum.

    Makes no sense to me.

    ACTUALLY, READING MY POST MAKES LITTLE SENSE TO ME EITHER CONSIDERING THE THREAD! SORRY FOR SWAYING INTO THIS SORT OF GRUMBLE LOL!
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 12-12-2011 at 05:11 AM.
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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by NelisVingTsun View Post
    Did you and Kevin met?
    Yes, we met yesterday (Sunday) at my class.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
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  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    Yes, we met yesterday (Sunday) at my class.


    Did you guys exchange ideas and how was the meet up?

  15. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    Yes, we met yesterday (Sunday) at my class.
    Good to meet up at last! Very frendly group, met another sifu J Camma.

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