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Thread: Cantonese kinship terms

  1. #16
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    Syn7,

    Touche.

    In any case, I just meant to contrast with the idea of ranks/belts.
    ================================================== ===
    Faruq,

    Jokes aside, no Turks in Xi'an. The language is Turkic but geographically it's pretty far from Turkey. Also, while there is a pretty sizable Ouigher population in Xi'an, the moslem population here is mostly Hui, not Ouigher or other Jinjiang based minorities. There are a lot of Ouighers in the southern part of town but the Moslem Quarter is primarily Hui.

    As to MA, Xinyi, Xingyi and Tongbei are all very popular arts among the Hui in Xi'an.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    The language is Turkic but geographically it's pretty far from Turkey.
    Is that from settling traders on the silk trade routes?

  3. #18
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    Is "what" because of the trader's on the silk routes?

    A whole bunch of ethnic groups appear to be being conflated here. Grab yourself a map or head over to Google earth and find Turkey, Xinjiang and Xi'an.

    Turkey is waaaay over the west. The turkic people in China come from Jinjiang and also from all those various countries with names ending in -stan. They are not ethnically Chinese but there presence in China has virtually nothing to do with the silk road history. Well maybe something but not much. Jinjiang is a massive territory that was just pretty much annexed an brought into China during the modern era. Historically there had been a tributary relationship (as in paying tribute) but no resources to take them by force.

    The language is Turkic because...well...Turkic is a huge category. It's a linguistic family like latin or germanic. Most all of central asia speaks various turkic family languages just as most of Europe speaks romance languages (ie Latin based). Blame the Ottomans.

    The Hui people, OTOH, speak languages having no relationship to Turkish. The Hui are also brought to China in general and Xi'an in specific as a result of ancient trade routes. They are far more assimilated than the Oughers, Kazaks, Ouzbeks etc. and other than their little white hats, are pretty much visually indistinguishable from Han Chinese.
    Last edited by omarthefish; 10-07-2012 at 10:17 PM.

  4. #19
    Yah, I am familiar with the geography, but not all the history. Thanx. What time period is that? Did they have any Turkic languages before the Ottoman Empire? The Ottomans ran things for quite a while.

    Oh yeah, I know what a vassal state is thanx for being thorough though.

  5. #20
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    Thanx. What time period is that? Did they have any Turkic languages before the Ottoman Empire?
    lol. I ain't that familiar with the history. I didn't even mention the Ottoman Empire in my original post. I was on my lunch break, took a nap and then suddenly thought, "Oh yeah. I bet they all speak Turkik because of the Ottomans.

    My guess, without googling it, is that the Vassal state stuff with those central Asian border peoples goes back all the way to Tang dynasty. That's when they were the biggest. . . actually Yuan was bigger but the Yuan dynasty was when the Mongols came in and conquered the Han, not the other way around.

    Did they have any Turkic languages before the Ottoman Empire?
    Again, moving beyond what I actually know now. I'd expect they did but the name wouldn't make sense. We call Latin based languages "romance" languages because it was the Romans who spread them. We call central Asian languages "Turkic" because it was the ancient Turks who spread them.

    I never really studied Central Asia. My major was in Chinese. You live in Asia and meet the people and you learn a few things. I'm no expert on this stuff. Just live a couple minutes from the muslim quarter is all. Before that I lived down by where all the Ouigher's hang out.

  6. #21
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    I did a search on wikipedia, as I find language and ethnicities interesting.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkestan

    Hope this answers your question

  7. #22
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    Maybe keep in mind that the culture of the people we now call "Turks" didn't originate in Turkey. They were in Siberia and Mongolia long before they came to Anatolia.

    And why mention the Latinate Italic languages of Europe without bringing up the Germanic family--arguably the most widespread language group in the world due to the current popularity of English? This language I write didn't come from Latin.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    Interestingly, in northern China...well in Xi'an anyways...instead of Simu (师母) the term of preference is (Mandarin) Shiniang (师娘). It's an oddly old fashioned term as "niang"/娘 is a term for "mother" that you don't hear in contemporary Chinese. You usually only hear it in period pieces on TV.

    I can confirm that in Henan also. I have never once heard the expression 'ShiMu'.... We always use Shi Niang for Shi Fu's Wife.

    Also for Shifus father and/or Master we use the expression ShiYe (scholarly grandfather). Generally however this is age dependant, I would never use it for anyone who is not old enough to be my grandfather as it would be strange. Similarly if my master is old enough to be my grandfather I would directly call him ShiYe and not ShiFu. If I am referring to a great master in the 3rd person, I may occasionally use the term 'DaShi' (Great Scholar) but not directly to them.


    Niang is a term we use quite a lot, but generally as 'XiaoGuNiang' ... Little girl. A generally flattering way to call someone who is younger or the same age as you. Much better than XiaoJie.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 10-08-2012 at 07:45 AM.

  9. #24
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    Well the character is still in common use, sure. Just not the word. Nobody calls their mother niang/娘.

    Also, kind of funny how xiaojie/小姐 fell out of use. That's one of my favorite linguistic phenomena. I don't know the formal term but I am referring to when a colloquial meaning of a word evolves to mean the exact opposite of the formal meaning.

    For those who don't know what we are talking about, xiaojie/小姐:

    Colloquial meaning: prostitute

    Formal meaning: a young women from the upper class. The kind of girl who has servants and a coming out party after finishing school. An aristocrat.

  10. #25
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    It's not really sexist

    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    Kinda sexist huh. A female must earn Sifu but her husband gets a free title? Cause he's her master? Sup?
    The issue is that there are two different characters used for fu in shifu and they are phonetically identical: 師傅 and 師父. Fu #1 (傅) literally means teacher and is a little redundant to shi (師), which also means teacher but has a connotation of master as well. Fu #2 (父) means father. So fuqin (父親) means father and muqin (母親) means mother and fumu (父母) means parents.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiao yao View Post
    I did a search on wikipedia, as I find language and ethnicities interesting.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkestan

    Hope this answers your question
    I was thinking more of these guys:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people

    Though I have heard of these guys:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people

    I had just heard the Uighurs were geniuses with herbal medicine, but had never heard of them having any complete martial art systems like the Chinese so when I saw your location I thought I'd ask. There seems to be a lot of racial strife and oppression of the Uighurs there from what I see on youtube, lol. I just think to myself, come on people, can't we all just get along?

  12. #27
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    In Shandong, we use Shi Mu, Ive never heard Shi Niang. We also use Shi Ye over Shi Gong, but it only refers to your own teachers teacher. For masters other than my own, Ive been told to call them Laoshi, regardless of age, rank or ability in comparison to my own teacher.

    For kung fu uncle, we use both Shi Bo and Shi Shu, I dont think theres a difference. When I met my own Shifu's kung fu uncle, I was told to also call him Laoshi, as theres no word for "kung fu great uncle".

    Also, I know in the south of China and Taiwan, xiaojie is still a respectable term, often used in daily life.

    I know none of this is Cantonese,

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jdhowland View Post
    Maybe keep in mind that the culture of the people we now call "Turks" didn't originate in Turkey. They were in Siberia and Mongolia long before they came to Anatolia.

    And why mention the Latinate Italic languages of Europe without bringing up the Germanic family--arguably the most widespread language group in the world due to the current popularity of English? This language I write didn't come from Latin.
    He did mention Germanic.

    I've heard a few refer to English as a Latin based language, but I think most people know it's Germanic in origin. I think the confusion is because of three things. 1- Because of loanwords and to a lesser extant, Calque which itself is, wait for it, a loanword lol. 2- Because of new words for new ideas that span multiple languages. 3- Because Academia has always used Latin, people just assume it's a precursor to our language.

    Cross contamination is inevitable in such close quarters.

    I'm no linguist, I just find it all fascinating. These are just my best guesses. I'm totally open to suggestions when it comes to this stuff.

    I was taught in like 9th grade that English has a Germanic origin.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by xiao yao View Post
    I did a search on wikipedia, as I find language and ethnicities interesting.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkestan

    Hope this answers your question
    It was the first thing I looked at when I got curious. Thanx tho.

    It answered some questions, but not many. What I am specifically interested is Human migration routes and the effects they left behind along the way and/or brought with them to their ultimate destinations. While the wiki sites give great overall info, they don't get specific enough in those articles. I'm sure it's in wiki somewhere, I just need to dig a lil more. Find good wiki pages and then go straight to the bibliography and go that route. That is why I like wiki, I appreciate the sources, not the articles themselves. Not that it sucks, it's just so "minimal".

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    The issue is that there are two different characters used for fu in shifu and they are phonetically identical: 師傅 and 師父. Fu #1 (傅) literally means teacher and is a little redundant to shi (師), which also means teacher but has a connotation of master as well. Fu #2 (父) means father. So fuqin (父親) means father and muqin (母親) means mother and fumu (父母) means parents.
    LOL, doncha just hate that!!!

    How do you type in Chinese with a US standard keyboard? WTF does a Chinese typewriter look like?

    You know how kids are taught to spell by "sounding out" the word? Can you do that in Chinese at all? Do phonetics have characters? Or specific strokes? I've always wanted to learn, but I have so many pursuits that I have to be realistic in my endeavors. I can learn everything, as much as I would like to. But speaking Chinese seems to be an important one. I can speak English and French fluently and have a working knowledge of Spanish and Portuguese. A Lil Italian. I don't have any formal training in Latin, but I have so many pursuits that involve Latin terminology that I have managed to pick up quite a bit.

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