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Thread: Cantonese kinship terms

  1. #31
    Chinese Typewriter



    Yeah, I don't get it. lol. I don't wanna put in the work, somebody just tell me Pretty please!?!

    How does this create 90,000 characters? Lots of overlap?

  2. #32
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    I dont know how that typewriter works, but typing on normal US or UK keyboards in really easy. You install a program, and you just type in the pinyin and it brings up a list of possible characters, if you write a whole sentence it will auto select the right characters based on the context. its quick and efficient.

    Kids learn pinyin before they learn to write characters. That way they can learn the standard way to pronounce words before they know how to write them.

  3. #33
    ...........The typefaces fit on a drum. A "magic eye" was mounted in the center of the keyboard which magnifies and allows the typist to review a selected character.[1] Characters are selected by first pressing 2 keys to choose a desired character which is arranged according to a system Lin devised for his dictionary of the Chinese language. The selected Chinese character appeared in the magic eye for preview,[1] the typist then pressed a "master" key, similar to today's computer function key. The typewriter could create 90,000 distinct characters using either one or two of six character-containing rollers, which in combination has 7000 full characters and 1,400 character radicals or partial characters.[1]

    The inspired aspect of the typewriter was the system Lin devised for a Chinese alphabet. It had thirty geometric shapes or strokes (somewhat analogous to the elements of a glyph). These became "letters" by which to alphabetize Chinese characters. He broke tradition with the long-standing system of radicals and stroke order writing and categorizing of Chinese characters, inventing a new way of seeing and categorizing.



    That's the best description they had. As to what this "system" was and how he came up with it, I dunno. Something to do with a simplified Chinese dictionary method. I didn't wanna go too far since I don't even understand the basics.
    The Chinese languages are very foreign to me. I don't understand how two keys can make a character???

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    Chinese Typewriter



    Yeah, I don't get it. lol. I don't wanna put in the work, somebody just tell me Pretty please!?!

    How does this create 90,000 characters? Lots of overlap?
    Actually, there are only about 10,000 characters in common use. 90,000 words
    might be in a typical dictionary but only about 10,000 or so characters. I still don't get how a typewriter could work that way but 10K is a much smaller challenge
    than 90K.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by xiao yao View Post
    I dont know how that typewriter works, but typing on normal US or UK keyboards in really easy. You install a program, and you just type in the pinyin and it brings up a list of possible characters, if you write a whole sentence it will auto select the right characters based on the context. its quick and efficient.

    Kids learn pinyin before they learn to write characters. That way they can learn the standard way to pronounce words before they know how to write them.
    So what? You spell it out phonetically and then choose from the list of suggested words by the program?

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    Actually, there are only about 10,000 characters in common use. 90,000 words
    might be in a typical dictionary but only about 10,000 or so characters. I still don't get how a typewriter could work that way but 10K is a much smaller challenge
    than 90K.
    Well, it works by creating a combination of keys. As to what or how that combination works, I dunno. It says you type two keys then verify then print. That's all I really know. I suspect this would make a lot more sense if you can actually read Chinese.




    Chinese input methods predate the computer. One of the early attempts was an electro-mechanical Chinese typewriter Ming kwai (Chinese: 明快; pinyin: míngkuài; Wade–Giles: ming-k'uai) which was invented by Lin Yutang, a prominent Chinese writer. It assigned thirty base shapes or strokes to different keys and adopted a new way of categorizing Chinese characters. But the typewriter was not produced commercially and Lin soon found himself deeply in debt.[1]

    Before the 1980s, Chinese publishers hired teams of workers and selected a few thousand type pieces from an enormous Chinese character set. Chinese government agencies entered characters using a long, complicated list of Chinese telegraph codes, which assigned different numbers to each character. During the early computer era, Chinese characters were categorized by their radicals or Pinyin (or romanization), but results weren't completely satisfactory.





    A typical keyboard layout for Cangjie method, which is based on United States keyboard layout
    Chu Bong-Foo invented a common input method in 1976 with his Cangjie input method, which assigns different "roots" to each key on a standard computer keyboard. With this method, for example, the character 日 is assigned to the A key, and 月 is assigned to B. Typing them together will result in the character 明 ("bright").

    Despite its difficulty of learning, this method remains popular in Chinese communities that use traditional Chinese characters, such as Hong Kong and Taiwan; it is also the first method that allowed users to enter more than a hundred Chinese characters per minute.

    All methods have their strengths and weaknesses. The pinyin method can be learned rapidly but its maximum input rate is limited. The Wubi takes longer to learn, but expert typists can enter text much more rapidly with it than with phonetic methods.

    Due to these complexities, there is no "standard" method.

    In mainland China, wubi (shape-based) and pinyin methods such as Sogou Pinyin and Google Pinyin are the most popular; in Taiwan, Boshiamy, Cangjie, and zhuyin predominate; and in Hong Kong, Cangjie is most often taught in schools.

    Other methods include handwriting recognition, OCR and voice recognition. The computer itself must first be "trained" before the first or second of these methods are used; that is, the new user enters the system in a special "learning mode" so that the system can learn to identify his handwriting or speech patterns. The latter two methods are used less frequently than keyboard-based input methods and suffer from relatively high error rates, especially when used without proper "training", though higher error rates are an acceptable trade-off to many users.
    Last edited by Syn7; 10-08-2012 at 09:59 PM.

  7. #37
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    That's exactly how it works...but wait...there's more....

    The software has been programmed with Chinese grammar so that if you type out an entire phrase phonetically, it can guess, with startling accuracy, which characters you needed. Most Chinese speakers simply type out the entire sentence and then tap the back arrow a couple times to make one or two corrections. Furthermore, the software "learns". The character you needed may have been number 15 in a list of 20 ****nyms but the next time you use it it will bump up to number 6 or something. Use it again and the next time it's your first choice. Usually this comes into play with names. It's not possible for the software to know that you were typing a name so the first time you type a name it tends to be cumbersome as you scroll through the list but the next time it will pop up all at once. Use it a couple more times an you may have only to type the first letter of the phoenetics of the characters.

    For example, with Sougou pinyin, I just type "bzd" and 不知道 (I don't know) comes up. "wsm" produces 为什么(why?). The more you use it, the faster it gets. wdmzs produces: 我的名字是(my name is)

    Pretty cool.

  8. #38
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    My previous post was in response to your previous one to this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    Well, it works by creating a combination of keys. As to what or how that combination works, I dunno. It says you type two keys then verify then print. That's all I really know. I suspect this would make a lot more sense if you can actually read Chinese.
    What they probably mean is how "radicals" create characters. Radicals are like word roots.

    Take the character 你. It has two radicals a 亻and a 尔 which combine make the character 你. The 亻can be combined with all sort of other parts like 仁 or 化 or even 花 where you have the 亻as one of 3 separate radicals. If you could type the radicals separately and then combine them to form characters you could reduce the number from 10,000 down to about 200 or so pieces that need to be combines.

  9. #39
    Sorry, my connection wasn't very good. I edited a post right away but took forever to actually post. My bad

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    That's exactly how it works...but wait...there's more....

    The software has been programmed with Chinese grammar so that if you type out an entire phrase phonetically, it can guess, with startling accuracy, which characters you needed. Most Chinese speakers simply type out the entire sentence and then tap the back arrow a couple times to make one or two corrections. Furthermore, the software "learns". The character you needed may have been number 15 in a list of 20 ****nyms but the next time you use it it will bump up to number 6 or something. Use it again and the next time it's your first choice. Usually this comes into play with names. It's not possible for the software to know that you were typing a name so the first time you type a name it tends to be cumbersome as you scroll through the list but the next time it will pop up all at once. Use it a couple more times an you may have only to type the first letter of the phoenetics of the characters.

    For example, with Sougou pinyin, I just type "bzd" and 不知道 (I don't know) comes up. "wsm" produces 为什么(why?). The more you use it, the faster it gets. wdmzs produces: 我的名字是(my name is)

    Pretty cool.
    Same idea as predictive text then? My cell phone learns and adds words I use. It even remembers the slang terms and words I mis spell on purpose. Like ur, str8, etc etc. You know, net speak

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    My previous post was in response to your previous one to this:

    What they probably mean is how "radicals" create characters. Radicals are like word roots.

    Take the character 你. It has two radicals a 亻and a 尔 which combine make the character 你. The 亻can be combined with all sort of other parts like 仁 or 化 or even 花 where you have the 亻as one of 3 separate radicals. If you could type the radicals separately and then combine them to form characters you could reduce the number from 10,000 down to about 200 or so pieces that need to be combines.
    Yeah but there are only like 50 keys on that typewriter? How would they get all the 'radicals'? Can these radicals be broken down more?
    Last edited by Syn7; 10-08-2012 at 10:18 PM.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    My previous post was in response to your previous one to this:

    What they probably mean is how "radicals" create characters. Radicals are like word roots.

    Take the character 你. It has two radicals a 亻and a 尔 which combine make the character 你. The 亻can be combined with all sort of other parts like 仁 or 化 or even 花 where you have the 亻as one of 3 separate radicals. If you could type the radicals separately and then combine them to form characters you could reduce the number from 10,000 down to about 200 or so pieces that need to be combines.
    Some early printing tools like typewriters had a sh1tload of keys.



    Now it looks like this:




    Are these all radicals? Surely that isn't all of them?

    LOL, in this case my curiosity is far exceeding my knowledge base. I should prolly slow it down if I really wanna learn.

  13. #43
    Is the Latin alphabet that much superior? Or is it a culture bias in that people who use the Latin alphabet invented these tools and everyone else was forced to assimilate best they could?

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    Is the Latin alphabet that much superior? Or is it a culture bias in that people who use the Latin alphabet invented these tools and everyone else was forced to assimilate best they could?
    It is to an extent but let me preface that with some background anthropological knowledge. Each of the writing systems morphology as far as writing goes has to do with the materials they were written on. Cuneiform, one of the oldest written languages, was pressed into wet clay using a kind of stamping pen. The Greek system of writing was meant to be carved into stone, and the runic system carved into wood. The Egyptian writing system was a step forward. The hieroglyphs were pictorial but also phonetic and could thus be written on paper and inscribed onto stone.

    The reason languages based partially or entirely on a phonetic script of letters are superior is that is allows for easy recombination of the symbols to form new and innovative words. For example man can be combined into policeman, scottsman, and numerous other words. But the way Latin languages. Are written is still limited in a way. It is not simply the Latin script but it's use in English which is a combination of both Germanic and Latin and allows for a myriad of nonstandard word forms to come about more easily than most languages.

    Compare this to a writing system like Chinese or Japanese Kanji and you'll see the difference in complexity of creating new words. In fact the traditional characters in the Chinese system derive their meaning from combination of other symbols so as much as the simplified writing make writing easier it makes recombination more difficult and the characters less meaningful. But if you go with the traditional writing it is a much more complicated system of writing and you must memorize far more than for a phonetic system.

    Simply put, there's a reason the Japanese also have phonetic alphabets.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    It is to an extent but let me preface that with some background anthropological knowledge. Each of the writing systems morphology as far as writing goes has to do with the materials they were written on. Cuneiform, one of the oldest written languages, was pressed into wet clay using a kind of stamping pen. The Greek system of writing was meant to be carved into stone, and the runic system carved into wood. The Egyptian writing system was a step forward. The hieroglyphs were pictorial but also phonetic and could thus be written on paper and inscribed onto stone.

    Is that because of the Papyrus from the delta? I know that during the Roman Republic the Egyptians were paper heavyweights. I'm not sure how far back it goes, I just know that it was the most desirable paper for Roman aristocrats. It doesn't age very well, but it is my understanding that there are many hermetically sealed samples out there. Wax lids on pottery I imagine. Dunno tho. If you're an anthropologist then I'm sure you know better than me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    The reason languages based partially or entirely on a phonetic script of letters are superior is that is allows for easy recombination of the symbols to form new and innovative words. For example man can be combined into policeman, scottsman, and numerous other words. But the way Latin languages. Are written is still limited in a way. It is not simply the Latin script but it's use in English which is a combination of both Germanic and Latin and allows for a myriad of nonstandard word forms to come about more easily than most languages.

    Compare this to a writing system like Chinese or Japanese Kanji and you'll see the difference in complexity of creating new words. In fact the traditional characters in the Chinese system derive their meaning from combination of other symbols so as much as the simplified writing make writing easier it makes recombination more difficult and the characters less meaningful. But if you go with the traditional writing it is a much more complicated system of writing and you must memorize far more than for a phonetic system.

    Simply put, there's a reason the Japanese also have phonetic alphabets.
    I guess that's why their poetry is so admired. More words, more accuracy. No?

    So the Latin roots make it easier for calque words(is that how you say that? or is it just calque?) and new words combined with older words rather than making a whole new word, or character in the case of Chinese? It sure makes it easier to translate.

    I find it difficult to wrap my head around a non phonetic alphabet, or whatever it's called. Surely it isn't all arbitrary???


    Is it harder to know Chinese and learn English(or any phonetic alphabet) or vice versa? Both, writing and speaking.

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