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Thread: Kung Fu Sparring League

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiao3 Meng4 View Post
    Martial Arts is not only a great way to learn self-defense or improve your physical health; it is also a great way to temper the mind. Throughout the ages, Monks, Warriors and Philosophers discovered that sport combat was a very effective method of developing awareness, focus, and clarity.
    Not to mention that it's a great way to release naked aggression. We are animals and we need our outlets or it will harm us from the inside out.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Because your training partner is your weight training. If you can use your firemen's carry to life up your 250 lb training partner over your head, you can't be in too bad body shape yourself. 1 year wrestling training will make you stronger than 3 years solo form training.
    Yeah, pushing and pulling somebody who is your own size and skill level is great exercise in itself. Thats why farmboys do well. They deal with large animals and have to shovel all that feed and all that. Unlike other forms of repetitive manual labour, farming is quite versatile as far as range of motion is concerned. IMO, anyways.

    I used to work with very large horses. It was a great workout. (have at it, bawang)

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiao3 Meng4 View Post
    Martial Arts is not only a great way to learn self-defense or improve your physical health; it is also a great way to temper the mind.
    If you teach

    - combat, you say it's also good for health and inner peace, there is nothing wrong about that.
    - health and inner peace, you say it's also good for combat, you are cheating on your students.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 11-09-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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  4. #64
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    Self-cultivation, inner peace, performance are all cool, but I think they only make sense in the context of having learned how to fight first.

    There are a host of other skills in gongfu that are useful, but only after fight training. For example, push hands is a cool exercise but a lot of taiji teachers seem to have this notion that first you do taolu, then push hands, then.....*ta-da* at some point years down the road you are ready to learn the fighting. Of course, I imagine some do this to milk students of money, but there are some who really believe this. Fight training and supplementary training go hand in hand.

    I once remarked to a fellow forum member in person that a person should learn some Sanda before learning traditional Shaolin. I'm not sure if he understood what I meant, since Sanda and traditional Shaolin are not similar, but giving a student some basic understanding of fighting, distance, power generation, etc before moving to traditional methods gives them context.

    In Japan, most koryu people I've talked to suggest something similar...get a black belt in something like judo or kendo and THEN start thinking about the traditional stuff.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    Every wrestler I know is stronger than their MA counterparts. Just my experience. I also noticed that farmboys make great wrestlers.
    Kung fu people dress in silk pajamas and practice dances in an attempt develop "six harmonies."

    Farmers have "six harmonies" from their occupation.

  6. #66
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    If one can go to the woods and uses his upper arm with body rotation to break 1000 tree branches, whenever he graps his opponent's wrist, he can break his opponent's arm.

    If you are a city boy, there is no way that you have opportunity to develop such skill.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post

    I used to work with very large horses. It was a great workout. (have at it, bawang)
    do you know a mr hands by any chance

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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    I can take any big thug with no real MA training and throw him in the ring with the same size person with mma or bjj skill and he will do fine. Not because the bjj guy sucked but, because general mma or bjj is something you can just do! Anyone can jump in the ring and hold there own. Not because the other guy is bad at mma but because mma and bjj are primal / instictive skills that we all have inside us.
    This is wrong bordering on asinine.

    I think what you meant to say was you can throw a guy with 3 years of "traditional" gong fu training into the ring against a guy with 3 months of MMA/jiujitsu training and he'll get his clock cleaned.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    If you teach

    - combat, you say it's also good for health and inner peace, there is nothing wrong about that.
    - health and inner peace, you say it's also good for combat, you are cheating on your students.
    Couldn't agree more.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Arms View Post
    Ginosifu,

    This last paragraph is not true, and in fact is easily disproven. Take your average good street fighter, put them up against a well trained sport fighter and in that 1 on 1 the sport fighter is generally going to dominate in most aspects of the fight. Fighting trained fighters is a whole different world from fighting those that have not been trained (proper distance and keeping your hands up are two things that make a huge difference all by themselves).

    Kimbo Slice was an example of this, a guy that was strong, had fought a lot on the street (presumably) and yet had a hard time at the lower levels of the sport fighting world. BJJ takes something that most certainly is not natural for most humans (moving on the ground) and makes an art form out of it, in fact the art itself was based largely in part on the concept of taking a person on in a range or way that took them out of their element. I think it was Maeda that really fleshed out this concept.
    The problem with everyones thoughts about mma or bjj is that only see on tv or at the events is the super athletes whom have made it to the top. These elite martial sport athletes are less than 1% of the martial sport population.

    99% of all people practice mma or bjj or sc or judo for that matter will never make it as a professional fighter on tv. It is unrealist to think that everyone will reach there level. These guys would have been superstars even if they were San Shou fighters or judo players or Karate fighters. Because of genetics, conditioning, will and superior skill they would have crushed anyone in any style would have chosen to follow.

    My statement about anyone can jump into a mma or bjj club and compete with any beginner, intermediate ot even adavnced students still stands. MMA and the like rely on basic punches, kicks, grappling and throwing that ANYONE can do instictively without any training. Not that this non martial arts student is going to clean house with everyone in that club, but more he could hold his own.

    I don't know know why many of you hold mma and ufc as the standard level Martial Art. You use mma fighters as the standard to gage everyone by. I don't see mma and ufc fighters as anything other than a Martial Sport. To me... martial sport is a incomplete martial art, only partially preparing the student for the self defense world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    I would love to see you stuck in a room with a meathead wrestler. You don't know what defenceless feels like until a high level grappler shuts you down.

    Insert all your theories of how you can fend off somebody well trained and stronger than you here ______________________________
    Syn7: I started high school wrestling at the age of 12, collegiate / freestyle wrestling in my teens and Shuai Chiao in my twenties. I have never stopped since, so that make about 38 years of wrestling experience. Hmmmmmmmm, I think I got wrestling under control here.

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    This is wrong bordering on asinine.

    I think what you meant to say was you can throw a guy with 3 years of "traditional" gong fu training into the ring against a guy with 3 months of MMA/jiujitsu training and he'll get his clock cleaned.
    Sorry wenshu but I stand by my statement. Anyone can walk into your average mma / bjj school and do well against any other average guy his weight or size.

    ginosifu

  11. #71
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    Gino, I have to say you're wrong.

    When I trained submission grappling at 170lbs I routinely wiped the floor with big strong guys that came in and tried to use their strength only. Grappling is a chess game.
    It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    The problem with everyones thoughts about mma or bjj is that only see on tv or at the events is the super athletes whom have made it to the top. These elite martial sport athletes are less than 1% of the martial sport population.

    99% of all people practice mma or bjj or sc or judo for that matter will never make it as a professional fighter on tv. It is unrealist to think that everyone will reach there level. These guys would have been superstars even if they were San Shou fighters or judo players or Karate fighters. Because of genetics, conditioning, will and superior skill they would have crushed anyone in any style would have chosen to follow.

    My statement about anyone can jump into a mma or bjj club and compete with any beginner, intermediate ot even adavnced students still stands. MMA and the like rely on basic punches, kicks, grappling and throwing that ANYONE can do instictively without any training. Not that this non martial arts student is going to clean house with everyone in that club, but more he could hold his own.

    I don't know know why many of you hold mma and ufc as the standard level Martial Art. You use mma fighters as the standard to gage everyone by. I don't see mma and ufc fighters as anything other than a Martial Sport. To me... martial sport is a incomplete martial art, only partially preparing the student for the self defense world.



    Syn7: I started high school wrestling at the age of 12, collegiate / freestyle wrestling in my teens and Shuai Chiao in my twenties. I have never stopped since, so that make about 38 years of wrestling experience. Hmmmmmmmm, I think I got wrestling under control here.



    Sorry wenshu but I stand by my statement. Anyone can walk into your average mma / bjj school and do well against any other average guy his weight or size.

    ginosifu
    im sorry but you are talking out of ignorance and with a bias thats just silly

    For the record I judge MMA from the perspective of someone who has trained with both international UFC level fighters and guys fighting local c class comps and who only train twice a week, who has been a sparring partner for both guys getting ready for the UFC and guys going to into their first local comp.

    i have over a decade in several different MMA gyms: my main MMA gym just had a team compete in the european naga event in paris and has 7 guys fighting on the next local MMA card and also has two guys going for national amateur titles

    i have seen rugby players (both amateur and pro the city the gyms in is the mecca for rugby in the UK) powerlifters, east European OL weight lifters (the city is full of polish and others east europeans who have been doing lifting since they were young and all weight at least 95kg and all on decca lol) and they all come into class and get their backsides handed to them by beginner and mid level students because despite what you seem to think MMA is very technical and what you dont understand on the ground and standing will get you killed by a half decent fighters

    So to reiterate in over a decade i have seen 110kg east european guys get there backsides handed to them by guys weighting under 90kg, i saw the coach who weighs all of 70kg knock one of them out for being an idiot in sparring with his mates and i have only seen one guy come in off the street and hold his own in sparring with mid level guys his own weight, and he turned out to be a former under 19 european judo champ, and he still got his bum handed to him by the coach and senior guys
    so my question for you is how many local MMA clubs have you taken local meatheads into and watched them beat almost everyone? 1 2 or 5, over how many years did you do this?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    so my question for you is how many local MMA clubs have you taken local meatheads into and watched them beat almost everyone? 1 2 or 5, over how many years did you do this?
    I have NOT been to any mma clubs here. I base it on the mma fighters (many have come in the last 10 years) who have come to my school and challenged me or my students (basically they wanted to test their skill).

    They all got their mma butts handed to them by my beginner San Shou students. Some of them switched and became my students.

    I base it on the fact that I have wrestled for almost 40 years now and over the years I have seen many man with no experience come, put a Shuai Chiao jacket on and keep up most people in the class.

    I base it on the fact that I have been a fighter for most my adult life (turning 50 this January). I judge things based on personal experiences. I have fought a cage / ucf style fight. I have many years of San Shou (I understand mma is different than San Shou).

    I have been in MA basically since I was 12. I have my opinions about MA have been and will stay the same until someone proves me wrong, physically! I have respect for everyone here and the styles you have chosen to pursue.

    Frost: I trust what you saying is all true, but I gotta see it to believe it myself. Actually I need someone to crush me with their mma skills and prove it to myself that they are right. I'm kinda stubborn like that sorry.

    ginosifu

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    I have NOT been to any mma clubs here. I base it on the mma fighters (many have come in the last 10 years) who have come to my school and challenged me or my students (basically they wanted to test their skill).

    They all got their mma butts handed to them by my beginner San Shou students. Some of them switched and became my students.

    I base it on the fact that I have wrestled for almost 40 years now and over the years I have seen many man with no experience come, put a Shuai Chiao jacket on and keep up most people in the class.

    I base it on the fact that I have been a fighter for most my adult life (turning 50 this January). I judge things based on personal experiences. I have fought a cage / ucf style fight. I have many years of San Shou (I understand mma is different than San Shou).

    I have been in MA basically since I was 12. I have my opinions about MA have been and will stay the same until someone proves me wrong, physically! I have respect for everyone here and the styles you have chosen to pursue.

    Frost: I trust what you saying is all true, but I gotta see it to believe it myself. Actually I need someone to crush me with their mma skills and prove it to myself that they are right. I'm kinda stubborn like that sorry.

    ginosifu
    so you haven;t seen any meathead actually go into an MMA gym and beat everyone, what you have seen is guys come in and hold there own with your students in chinese wrestling, and your sanda students beat MMA students, not quite the same as meatheads holding their own in a submission wrestling or MMA class wouldnt you agree?
    and no need to be sorry we all need to see these things and not trust others words BUT lets say someone does beat you, what does that prove about MMA? you are not a meathead i think we can both agree on that? you are a very well trained martial artist with a strong competition background, hardly the kind of person you are talking about holding their own with MMA guys with no training correct?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    and no need to be sorry we all need to see these things and not trust others words BUT lets say someone does beat you, what does that prove about MMA? you are not a meathead i think we can both agree on that? you are a very well trained martial artist with a strong competition background, hardly the kind of person you are talking about holding their own with MMA guys with no training correct?
    My personal experiences listed above are the reason I stated anyone could go into an mma gym and hold his own (not fighting the elite champions, just your average students)

    ginosifu

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