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Thread: No Style

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    So what drills would you extract if you had to?
    Almost all TCMA forms has such move that your opponent punches/kicks you, you block it, and then do something after that. Some people even call that self defense with higher priority than free sparring.

    I don't like any drills that I have to wait for my opponent to attack me. I like offense drills that I initial my attack whenever I want to. If my opponent attacks me first, I may just move back and play defense until I'm ready to attack back.

    If I don't attack, I can dance around and play defense. If I do attack, I want to finish my fight right at that moment. If I fail, I'll move back and wait for my oppornity for my next attack. I also don't like single move drills. I like combo drills that one move can be used to set up another move.

    I always like to start from a groin kick, knee joint kick, or foot sweep (kicks that's hard to be caught). Since my goal is to use kick, punch to set up my throw, any kick, punch combo that won''t be able to help me to link to my throw will serve me no purpose. After examing all the forms that I have learned in my life time, I finally decide that I just have to create my own drills for the kick, punch, lock, throw, follow on strike integration. The day when I found out what I need, I lost interest in all my TCMA forms. It's much easier for me to create my own drills than trying to extract drills out of the TCMA forms that I have learned.
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  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Almost all TCMA forms has such move that your opponent punches/kicks you, you block it, and then do something after that. Some people even call that self defense with higher priority than free sparring.

    I don't like any drills that I have to wait for my opponent to attack me. I like offense drills that I initial my attack whenever I want to.
    If you can do it against his attack, you can do it against his guard.

    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post


    You use right hand to deflect the high attack upwards. Raise the left knee to dive forward and down into the opening with left low palm attack.

    Other person shifts back and clears the low attack and returns a right high attack.

    You run into his attack, clear with left hand, and shoot a right punch in his face.
    Just change "deflect the high attack upwards" to "deflect his guard hand upwards to create your opening".

    If you start further away, then precede with "kick opponent's shin" before immediately attacking with the upward deflect, middle palm strike, follow up grab punch to face.

    Don't have to wait for him to punch. Just grab his arm/sleeve/shirt and punch his face after the palm attack.

    That's your combination attack started with a kick. Doesn't have to be defensive at all.

    One of my students studied Aiki Jitsu in Japan for over 20 years. Some of his techniques he didn't like because they only worked when you let the other person attack first.

    I said, "What you talking about? Just grab him and punch him first, now continue with your technique."

    It was similar to a Praying Mantis one, and he hadn't seen it set up with an attack opening.

    So he started to relook at a bunch of his Aiki Jitsu. He wasn't hippy dippy airy fairy either. He used to go into different schools and ask to be taught a lesson. They took that as an invitation to show the white guy how things are done. Sometimes he kicked ass. Other times he got his ass handed to him, which he accepted gratefully.

    He ended up with some old school teacher with gang affiliations. And they both went about getting into all kinds of trouble.
    Last edited by -N-; 12-06-2012 at 07:46 PM.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    If you can do it against his attack, you can do it against his guard.
    If my opponent attacks me, he has closed in the distance for me so I don't have to do that myself. To me, it's a bonus, but I don't want to be lazy and always expect my opponent to do that for me. I like to train my "mobility". I like to train combo with fast footwork. If I can still move as fast as the following clip when I'm 80 years old, I'll be quite happy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-06-2012 at 11:54 PM.
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  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    If my opponent attacks me, he has closed in the distance for me so I don't have to do that myself. To me, it's a bonus, but I don't want to be lazy and always expect my opponent to do that for me. I like to train my "mobility". I like to train combo with fast footwork. If I can still move as fast as the following clip when I'm 80 years old, I'll be quite happy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY
    I like that clip.

    Combining the two is good also.

    As soon as you read the other guy's intent to attack, you use your mobility and combo to steal his attack and overwhelm him.

    Your attack is over before you are done thinking "attack", and even before the other guy realizes that he himself is attacking. That's where Praying Mantis speed lives.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    As soon as you read the other guy's intent to attack, you use your mobility and combo to steal his attack and overwhelm him.

    Your attack is over before you are done thinking "attack", and even before the other guy realizes that he himself is attacking. That's where Praying Mantis speed lives.
    Agree! To be able to read your opponent's intention is important. When you detect your opponent's intention, you detect "leak" and move in. You can also use your fast punches to force your opponent to block your punches, you can then detect his "leak". This is why I love the "jab, cross, hook, hook" combo (from longfist扑按对打Pu An Dui Da), as long as I can keep my opponent busy, I can always be able to find "leak".

    If we look at all TCMA systems, we can see a lot of styles that emphasize on "power generation", styles such as Baji, XYLH, Chen Taiji. If you move slow and relax, you can always get a good "power generation" as showing in this clip:

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjk3ND...html?f=1718730

    We just don't see that many styles emphasize on "speed generation", styles such as praying mantis and Zimen.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-07-2012 at 01:51 PM.
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  6. #141
    We just don't see that many styles emphasize on "speed generation", styles such as praying mantis and Zimen.
    Shifu always said strength can be matched by strength, technique can be matched by tech, but nothing can matche speed.......... even if u got bigger gun I draw first you die, speed =power =win
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  7. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    If my opponent attacks me, he has closed in the distance for me so I don't have to do that myself. To me, it's a bonus, but I don't want to be lazy and always expect my opponent to do that for me. I like to train my "mobility". I like to train combo with fast footwork. If I can still move as fast as the following clip when I'm 80 years old, I'll be quite happy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY
    Pretty smooth...

  8. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    Shifu always said strength can be matched by strength, technique can be matched by tech, but nothing can matche speed.......... even if u got bigger gun I draw first you die, speed =power =win
    To a point yeah. But if you can't hurt the guy, eventually he'll get his licks in if you don't bounce out.

  9. #144
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    Strength / Speed / Skill / Courage

    All 4 are needed tobe an effective fighter. Stronger fighter can hit harder. Faster fighters can hit you first. Skillful fighter can out technique you. Couageous fighters are not afraid and apply the other 3 better.

    Examples:

    Both fighters are equal in speed, skill and courage. However one fighter is stronger. The stronger fighter will win out everytime.

    If you switch speed, skill or courage the same result will happen.

    ginosifu

  10. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    I always like to start from a groin kick, knee joint kick, or foot sweep (kicks that's hard to be caught). Since my goal is to use kick, punch to set up my throw, any kick, punch combo that won''t be able to help me to link to my throw will serve me no purpose. After examing all the forms that I have learned in my life time, I finally decide that I just have to create my own drills for the kick, punch, lock, throw, follow on strike integration. The day when I found out what I need, I lost interest in all my TCMA forms. It's much easier for me to create my own drills than trying to extract drills out of the TCMA forms that I have learned.
    I'll paraphrase something my Sifu said, but basically principle transcends technique and even style. Once you understand the principle, it really doesn't matter where the technique comes from.

    For example, in mantis - there's a lot of osoto gari type of throws. But they don't do it the way Judo does it, they set up by first tying up the person's arms. They do this because if you went in and tried to set it up judo style on the street by grabbing, you'll most likely walk away with a fat lip. Then I noticed all throws / trips in mantis are set up by tying up the person's arms. This means the principle is tie up the guys arms to throw him. It doesn't really matter how I tie up the person's arms, but I should tie them up to set up a throw. The forms just give me a couple of examples to work from.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    how I tie up the person's arms, ...
    If you just wrap your opponent's arms, that's not too hard to tie up your opponent's arms. The problem is you have just given your opponent an early warning that striking game is over and the grappling game just start.

    When do you want to tie up your opponent's arms is very interesting. If you can wait until your last second to do so, you can merge control and throw as one single move instead of separate moves as grab and throw. In order to do so, you really have to do a good job on your striking and throwing integration. This will lead to "no trapping - no bridging" approach, the moment that you touch your opponent's arm , the moment that you take your opponent down. This is much harder to do than to get into clinching first and worry about throw later approach.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-10-2012 at 11:01 AM.
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  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    The Tantui form has a lot of kicks. For a beginner to hold his leg in the air for a period of time until the teacher has corrected all students postures may be just too hard for beginners. Both Lien Bu Chuan and Gong Li Chuan doesn't have many kicks. To hold a punching posture for 2 minutes is much easier than to hold a kicking posture for 2 minutes.
    Actually, you will still learn Lien Bo and Tan Tui if you study North Shaolin that is referred to as "Bak Sil Lum". Anyone connected to Kwong Wing Lam for instance or any of his higher or lower classmates in Bak Sil Lum still teach the system in this manner. I learned these sets from my teacher who in turn learned the style from Ma Ching Fung.

    I've seen YJM lien Bo and it is a pretty different set from that which is in BSL. Same with the Tan Tui. It's as if there is a departure in the 3rd or 4th road and the whole set becomes something different.

    Fwiw, tan tui is a great development set no matter where on the timeline of your training. Lien Bo is a great beginners set.
    Last edited by David Jamieson; 12-10-2012 at 11:40 AM.
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  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When do you want to tie up your opponent's arms is very interesting. If you can wait until your last second to do so, you can merge control and throw as one single move instead of separate moves as grab and throw. In order to do so, you really have to do a good job on your striking and throwing integration. This will lead to "no trapping - no bridging" approach, the moment that you touch your opponent's arm , the moment that you take your opponent down. This is much harder to do than to get into clinching first and worry about throw later approach.
    That's what classical Mantis is all about, which is documented in the forms.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    That's what classical Mantis is all about, which is documented in the forms.
    The moment you touch, the moment you throw is very high level skill. Speed and angle to cut in play a very important role here.
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  15. #150

    expanding on this

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I'll paraphrase something my Sifu said, but basically principle transcends technique and even style. Once you understand the principle, it really doesn't matter where the technique comes from.

    For example, in mantis - there's a lot of osoto gari type of throws. But they don't do it the way Judo does it, they set up by first tying up the person's arms. They do this because if you went in and tried to set it up judo style on the street by grabbing, you'll most likely walk away with a fat lip. Then I noticed all throws / trips in mantis are set up by tying up the person's arms. This means the principle is tie up the guys arms to throw him. It doesn't really matter how I tie up the person's arms, but I should tie them up to set up a throw. The forms just give me a couple of examples to work from.
    I think once you get to that point that YouKnowWho is describing where he lost interest in forms and started working his own combinations is that point where you start to dabble in the mastery of TCMA. Adding that to my Sifu's explanation that principle transcends technique / style etc - I think that's the point where No Style is the rule because you can and will borrow from all styles and use what's natural for you.

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