View Poll Results: Should we adapt kung fu to the ring?

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  • Yes

    7 63.64%
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Thread: Ring Fu

  1. #1

    Ring Fu

    Should we just adapt Kung Fu to the ring?

    For example, just work off of a San Da base and then gradually introduce traditional techniques over time.

    I don't think it'd make Kung Fu any less effective and it's not like we're out defending our honor in bloody street fights. IDK, does it make sense to adapt to modern competition?

  2. #2
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    Modern competition can have as limited rules as you want, even no rules.
    The techniques used in Sanda ARE traditional, though they MAY not ALL be from TCMA in how they are applied.
    I don't see any reason why ANY kung fu systems will not work in the ring as long as the person trained for it.
    You won't find a much better "testing ground" for your TCMA than in the ring VS a fighter that has trained as much as you, wants to beat you as much as you want to be him.
    So why not?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  3. #3
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    There is no need to adapt the art. You simply need to adapt the game to test the art. Change the rules. But when I say change the rules, I don't mean to allow 'more deadly' technique. I mean to Change the prerequisites for winning.

    I.e If you did it as a scenario, alternating attackers and defenders. Like a game of tennis has alternating servers. This is in no way less realistic and would dramatically change the tactics used during each play.

    In the defenders round he doesn't have to score any points (but can counter attack if he wants, it just won't score him any points), only stop the attacker from scoring. I think you would see a lot more Kung fu 'esque footwork and guarding being employed. You can only score during an attacking round, however if you KO the opponent during a defending round then you win by default.



    All MA are based on Violence. However at its base there are 2 elementary forms of violence. Predatory and Territorial. Kung fu deals with the former (both initiating and defending against) and Ring MA deal with the latter. They are not always compatible. The only way to resolve this that I can see is not to use less rules but to have a scenario.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 12-13-2012 at 08:01 AM.

  4. #4
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    what exactly needs adapting? There are formats that allow both open and closed fist strikes, that allow gloves and no gloves, that allow trapping locks etc

    The question shouldnt be how do we adapt our kung fu, the question should be why do we need to

  5. #5
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    That's all fine and dandy BUT if you can't deal with an opponent in a controlled environment, that chances of doing so in an "uncontrolled' one is far, far less.
    Just like if you can't beat one guy, the chances of being able to beat 2 is far less.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    what exactly needs adapting? There are formats that allow both open and closed fist strikes, that allow gloves and no gloves, that allow trapping locks etc

    The question shouldnt be how do we adapt our kung fu, the question should be why do we need to
    the kickboxing comment comes up from time to time and in another thread it got me to thinking to just go with it instead of "fighting" against it. So my thought is to just develop good san da skills so it's definitely got that Chinese flavor as a base and then introduce the more "traditional" style specific techniques gradually over time. That way when a person or student hard spars, they'll fall back on solid san da technique instead of trying to improvise kickboxing because they haven't been trained to kick box properly.

  7. #7
    It seems counter intuitive, but I really do think that if you develop a good san da base, you'd actually end up freer to grow into being a solid traditional kung fu person over time. Does that make sense?


    I just see it in Judo - the competitive guys usually grow more into traditional Ju Jitsu (not to be confused with BJJ) as they age. And they get really good at applying the traditional self defense stuff. Seems to me like that would work with Kung Fu too.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    the kickboxing comment comes up from time to time and in another thread it got me to thinking to just go with it instead of "fighting" against it. So my thought is to just develop good san da skills so it's definitely got that Chinese flavor as a base and then introduce the more "traditional" style specific techniques gradually over time. That way when a person or student hard spars, they'll fall back on solid san da technique instead of trying to improvise kickboxing because they haven't been trained to kick box properly.
    The issue of "how a style looks in fighting" is not a very complex one but it is a 2 part one:
    Kung fu tends to only "look" like kung fu when the skill level difference is quite considerable.
    two:
    Because "specialty systems" (systems that have unique attributes to them) tend ot be drill and trained against themselves ( class environment), what makes those systems have their distinct "look" only shows up when they, basically, "fight themselves".
    When they have to apply their specializes skillset VS someone that is not presenting them with the "puzzle" they are used to, the bodies most natural way of doing things tends to "take over" and you get "poor mans kickboxing".
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    Seems to me like that would work with Kung Fu too.
    That would work, but its kind of like learning to do a 100m sprint backwards really well. Why not just train it forewards? Kung Fu cannot compete with a ring dedicated MA inside a ring. Because it is not designed of that format.

    I'm saying if you changed the format just a little, as in taking turns to attack or defend, you would see a lot of traditional techniques come into their zone and become a lot more useful.

    100% attack vs 100% defense would also be more fun to watch.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post

    100% attack vs 100% defense would also be more fun to watch.
    This is an interesting thought. Maybe someone here with a lot of students can try this one night and report back on the results.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    This is an interesting thought. Maybe someone here with a lot of students can try this one night and report back on the results.
    That is basic 101 drills in most MA.
    Why repeat that in a competitive environment where the ideal is to test ALL facets of combat?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    That is basic 101 drills in most MA.
    Why repeat that in a competitive environment where the ideal is to test ALL facets of combat?
    Because that is what it is designed for.... Why test your tennis game while playing football? Why test BJJ in a boxing match?

    The problem with most Kung Fu is that they do those drills , but they
    DONT test them in a competitive environment, they are not really trying ot hit each other


    Besides, I say take it in turns, so it DOES test all facets

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    That is basic 101 drills in most MA.
    Why repeat that in a competitive environment where the ideal is to test ALL facets of combat?
    my personal opinion is to go the San Da route to grow into traditional only because I always see (myself included) that people tend to kick box more as pressure and contact increases.

    But, starting this year I've decided to try not to make snap judgments and hopefully we can find ways to test theories and see if they provide results. Ren Da's idea and rationale is valid in the sense that it makes sense. So now we got to find a way to test it. It's just my opinion that we'll see even in the most traditional environment, the students will poor man kick box when pressured for real.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Because that is what it is designed for.... Why test your tennis game while playing football? Why test BJJ in a boxing match?

    The problem with most Kung Fu is that they do those drills , but they
    DONT test them in a competitive environment, they are not really trying ot hit each other


    Besides, I say take it in turns, so it DOES test all facets
    To use your analogy, why test your tennis game by testing only how you can receive a serve?
    That is what drills are for, to develop specifics and specialties BUT competition is used to test the WHOLE.
    IN boxing we cn do a few rounds where one guys just defends and the other guy attacks, helps the defender work on blocks, footwork, evasion, etc and helps the attacker work on combos and finding opening and angles.
    BUT it also has glaring weaknesses:
    The defender is forces to be overly defensive and the attacker is is not exposed to aggressive counter punching.

    Why bring those flaws into competition?

    The point of testing is to TEST in a live and uncooperative environment.
    Why make it just another "class" ?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    my personal opinion is to go the San Da route to grow into traditional only because I always see (myself included) that people tend to kick box more as pressure and contact increases.

    But, starting this year I've decided to try not to make snap judgments and hopefully we can find ways to test theories and see if they provide results. Ren Da's idea and rationale is valid in the sense that it makes sense. So now we got to find a way to test it. It's just my opinion that we'll see even in the most traditional environment, the students will poor man kick box when pressured for real.
    Your opinion will be correct because they are NOT training as they will be fighting.
    If you wanna do classical WC in a full contact environment then you must train it that way and NOT Vs another WC guy ( using WC as an example since classically it is NOT suppose to look like "kickboxing") but VS a MMA guy for example.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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