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Thread: TCMA for combat only

  1. #16
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    I think the phrase "TCMA is about more than just combat" is not harmful to kung fu at all. The beauty of it is that for different people it can be different things. Some people prefer the combat side, some people prefer the hippie new age stuff, some people just like a more exotic way to get in shape, some people like the culture/history, the list goes on....

    If something can be of benefit to so many different people in so many different ways, and open up new paths to aspects they never imagined liking, I think it is a great thing.

  2. #17
    If I only trained for combat I would buy a gun and would learn how to shoot and if I was worried that someone might take it from me I would also buy another gun and would hide it

    Most of the Kungfu styles were not created for sport fighting and whatever can be practiced without killing your opponent is not kungfu. So in that case any rational person would know that the era of kungfu has been finished a long time ago. Now there are four types of realistic people who practice kungfu.

    1: Those who focus on qigong self cultivation: Kungfu can be a very good yang type of training for these people and things like fajin might actually help them in moving qi and therefore improving faster than other qigong practitioners.

    2: Those who are interested in both self cultivation and sport combat. These people will find that some aspects of kungfu can actually be adopted in sport combat. However the main focus of training should be on sport fighting if that's what they want because those sports have more techniques to offer for that kind of fighting.

    3: Those who have a good business mind and want to make good money by teaching forms to rich people or performing forms.

    4: Those who enjoy learning and passing down tradition as it is.

    I think anyone who does not belong to these categories is not a realistic person because if you don't practice snapping necks, breaking bones, gouging eyes and killing people in general there is no way you can be good at real combat kungfu and in the age of nuclear bombs and weapons of mass destruction we have much better options for that purpose.
    Last edited by xinyidizi; 12-29-2012 at 04:24 AM.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    Just because your paranoid, don't mean THEY ain't out to get ya....
    Another nugget from a really smart but intensely dysfunctional rock star.

  4. #19
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    Why do we train TCMA weapons? Do we just "dance" with weapon? Let's be honest to ourselves. When we train

    - spear, we try to stab our spear head into our opponent's chest.
    - Guan Dao, we try to cut our opponent's head off.

    To have a hole in the chest or lose a head is not good for our opponent's health. There is nothing spiritual about it to send someone to heaven. Trying to cover the ugly combat by beautiful performance, health, and inner peace are nothing more than just "misleading".

    The day that we stop to swing our sword and use our fans, the day that I can agree with that TCMA is for performance and health.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NJhV...layer_embedded
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-29-2012 at 10:55 AM.
    http://johnswang.com

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    If you train TCMA for "combat" only without any concern about:

    - health,
    - performance,
    - self-cultivation,
    - inner peace,
    - spiritual development,
    - ...

    will you train your TCMA differently?
    Health

    Shuai Chiao fighting has gotten me in the best shape / health of my life.

    Performance

    I do a demo or performance of knife self defense it is still combat.

    self cultivation / inner peace / spiritual develoment

    I gain all of the above 3 while practicing / training my combat kung fu. I am happiest (Self Cultivation) when I am fighting in SC. I am content (Inner Peace) while practing knife fighting drills. My spirit soars while drilling my techniques with my partners and dreaming of the times I may need to use them...

    I get everything from my kung fu training. Health fitness, self defense and spiritual development.. all in 1 package. If you need to run to get into shape... then quit kung fu and go run.

    ginosifu

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Why do we train TCMA weapons? Do we just "dance" with weapon? Let's be honest to ourselves. When we train

    - spear, we try to stab our spear head into our opponent's chest.
    - Guan Dao, we try to cut our opponent's head off.

    To have a hole in the chest or lose a head is not good for our opponent's health. There is nothing spiritual about it to send someone to heaven. Trying to cover the ugly combat by beautiful performance, health, and inner peace are nothing more than just "misleading".

    The day that we stop to swing our sword and use our fans, the day that I can agree with that TCMA is for performance and health.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NJhV...layer_embedded
    How many trained opponents have you killed in a fair combat with your bare hands or with your guandao?

    Kungfu is not about enjoying hurting people and fake combat competitions. It is about killing the enemies of your country or your family when you have no other choice. Although I enjoy dabbling in sanda I have no doubt that it is fake combat. PH, SC, Karate, TKD, boxing, MMA,... competitions are also fake combat games to various degrees.

    There is a time for everything and the time of real Kungfu finished ages ago because there is no need for it anymore and people who are still in the business of killing use other far more efficient tools. The reason that we don't have anymore real kungfu masters now is not because kungfu is weak. It is because there is no need for it anymore and there is no way people can train it. The history shows it clearly that the people who we know as kungfu masters mostly died 100 years ago and there were some leftovers who also died a bit later but today they have all been completely wiped off the earth because you can't become a real kungfu master if you haven't killed dozens of trained opponents with your bare hands, sword, spear, ... and exactly how can we do this today? Why would we need to do this today?

    Perhaps I will never learn nor need to use the full potential of my kungfu but I enjoy it for what it is and I don't pretend it to be more than that. Is there any law against enjoying to perform forms, dancing with my spear, playing with watered down combat?
    Last edited by xinyidizi; 12-29-2012 at 08:45 PM.

  7. #22
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    In 1991-1992 I fought in full contact competitions in Malaysia and the Philippines from a base in Singapore.

    My Sihing and Sifu made me drill these techniques over and over again.

    jab
    straight
    overhand (sow choy)
    spinning backfist
    elbow - horizontal and vertical
    spinning elbow
    knee
    round kick
    side kick
    front kick/stepping kick

    We did this and nothing but as preparation, in as many combinations as we thought possible, focussing on 5 basic combo's that we could pull off without thinking.

    That was it. I asked my Sihing if this was the 'essence' of CLF. He snorted at me and said this was essence of fighting.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
    In 1991-1992 I asked my Sihing if this was the 'essence' of CLF. He snorted at me and said this was essence of fighting.
    I like it.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    If you train TCMA for "combat" only without any concern about:

    - health,
    - performance,
    - self-cultivation,
    - inner peace,
    - spiritual development,
    - ...

    will you train your TCMA differently?
    Good question, interesting and thought-provoking.

    I'll interpret it like this: Suppose I knew that sometime in the next year or two or three I'd have to fight for my life using barehanded techniques. No idea of the specifics but something was definitely going to befall me. That would bring a sense of focus.

    To be honest, with that kind of ominous motivation, I'd probably switch schools/approaches altogether. Maybe retain the most foundational training from Shaolin and Taiji, but as I'm not getting much applications and partner drills there, it would have to be set aside for the time being.

    I'd see if I could rejoin a hybrid wing-chun+ some thai boxing group I know of that did a lot of partner drills, bag and pad work, sparring, and some scenario training. The senior coaches (in their 40s) worked as bouncers and things like that and the head teacher trains soldiers and bodyguards in hand to hand. If they're not still active or won't have me back I'd try to find a group with similar orientation.

    On top of that I'd urgently seek out training partners who live nearby. The goal is to train often and less intensively (have to manage total energy at my age). Make it a part of everyday life.

    One thing I wouldn't do is spar with head-shots more than very infrequently. That is just too unhealthy IMO.

    I'd focus a lot on footwork, with a partner. Even playful soft drills with a lot of movement and coordination could improve reaction time, perception response. Games where you're just lightly slapping each other are really useful I believe. You can't always go 100%.

    My main weapons would be a couple of low kicks, a couple of palms and chops, a couple of hammarfists and elbows. Motivated by what I would actually have to face I would drill these constantly. I'd also drill a few clinching-distance followups along the lines of Fairbairn's (oddly named) "chin jab". A take-down. a footsweep. I'd want a simple, high-percentage entry, for example a dive that becomes an elbow to the opp’s solar plexus.

    What I would keep from the traditional training is ideas of balance and rooting and trying to disrupt an opponent’s balance, as practiced in some drills for that purpose.

    Just the absolute basics of groundwork. I'm assuming I may be attacked by multiple opponents and going to ground=death.

    I'd run a couple of times a week, but focus on 400 and 800 meters. I'm not expecting a drawn out ring-duel with multiple rounds and a referee.

    Luckily I don't have any reason to think this will happen, and I'm happy to train mostly for health, coordination, inner peace etc.
    Last edited by rett; 12-30-2012 at 03:27 AM.

  10. #25
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    John,
    Good discussion!

    Mine is a self-defense (combat) oriented school. I have changed how I teach over the years to reflect that fact more and more.

    From day one of training, a student practices what I feel are the most effective fighting combinations gleaned from the mantis forms. This will continue till the end of the student's training.

    A typical class consists of:

    1. 15 minutes of form training (only one or two empty hand forms are taught per year) and applications.

    2a. 1 hour and 15 minutes of combination training as two man drills, on focus mitts, and on BOB. Combinations are practiced on both sides of the body and students are expected to fight ambidextrously.

    2b. Some nights sparring is substituted for the entire combinations time slot.

    Sparring is continuous and students are expected to fight one opponent after another till exhausted. We pride ourselves in that sparring is more brutal in our school than in any other martial arts school that I have seen locally. It's how we do.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  11. #26
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    Every time that I have heard what our previous generation could do, I always believed that they didn't train TCMA for health, ... IMO, the reason that our generation is not as good as our previous generation because we are just not serious enough.

    Legend said that

    - XingYi master 唐维禄 could run faster than train.
    - When XingYi master 尚云祥 slept, people could walk passed him, it won't brother him. When people looked at him, he would waked up.
    - 尚云祥's student 丁志涛 could nail people on the ground.
    - An old man spitted out water from his mouth to knock down challenger.
    - ......

    If people are interest in the following article, you can use online translation.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    李仲轩(1915-2004),出身于天津书香门第,却性喜练武。年轻时曾先后拜北方三位拳术名家唐维禄、尚云祥、薛颠为师, 探骊得珠,博采各家之长, 深得形意拳之精义。三十四岁自武林退隐,身怀绝技,隐居市井数十年,和光同尘,不事张扬。晚年曾为京城西单 某家商场看门谋生。只是到了辞世前的最后几年, 因机缘凑合,遂向外界一位有心人全盘倾吐半个世纪前的武林旧事。其中既展示了众多武术大家的言行风貌、逸闻 佚事,也透露了不少曾经秘而不宣的练功秘诀。李 仲轩口述的系列文章以连载的形式,于2000年12月由《武魂》杂志公开发表以来,惊动了海内外武术界一池 春水,好评如潮,被誉为“中华武学最后一个高峰 期的最后一位见证者”。
      
      习武者冬练三九夏练三伏,长年累月地埋首苦练,究竟能达到一种什么样的境界呢?据李仲轩口述:“形意拳 能 练到什么程度呢?唐师跟我打比方,说从悬崖峭壁跳下,快撞到地面时,用手在石壁上一拍,人横着飞出去了,平 安无事。”(第48页)纵身跳下,横着飞出,能 致人于死命的千斤重力于一刹那间烟消云散,得到化解――这个姿态本身即可谓“力学”中的精巧构思,妙不可言 !

      那个时代,比武不像如今“武林风”中的选手,动辄以抱对方大腿而取胜――你想武松打架会抱腿吗?都是一 发力即可把对手远远摔开去。李仲轩第三个 师傅是薛颠。“薛颠和师兄傅昌荣在一座两层的酒楼比武,薛颠说:‘这不是一个比武的地方。’傅昌荣说:‘打 你不用多大的地方。’――这是激将法,薛颠仓促 出手,傅昌荣一记‘回身掌’把薛颠打下了酒楼。他是从二楼栏杆上下去的,摔得很结实,看热闹的人都以为他摔 坏了,不料他马上就站了起来,对酒楼上的傅昌荣 说了句:‘以后我找你。’便一步步走了。”(第163页)这件事的另一个版本:“唐(维禄)师说,薛颠与傅 昌荣原本交好,俩人借宿在关东营口的一家粮店, 临睡前试了试手,傅昌荣突然发力,把薛颠摔了出去,窗框都撞裂了,薛颠深以为耻,便走了。”( 第43-44页)一巴掌即可把对手摔出去撞破窗框,这就是与 当今花拳绣腿迥然不同的原汁原味的中华武功。

      薛颠此次比武失败,深以为耻,即隐居五台山独自练功,经一位百余岁名叫“虚无上人灵空长老”的老和尚指 点,武艺突飞猛进。几年后,薛颠重回天津 找傅昌荣交手,“薛颠的武功达到了‘神变’的程度,傅昌荣也一直在长功夫,绕着脸盆走一圈,脸盆里的水就旋 起来,简直匪夷所思。其实他迈步看似极轻却极 重,脚一落地便将脸盆里的水震荡起来。这份腿功已是‘举重若轻’的境界,一迈步便能伤人,薛、傅的比武,真 会必有一伤的”(第44 页)。后由大师兄尚云祥出面调解,说同门师兄弟不能“斗命”,并让薛颠接师傅李存义的班,出任天津国术馆馆 长,方才了此一段公案。

     李仲轩所拜的第二个师傅就是这位尚云祥,功夫亦十分了得,号称“铁脚佛”,平日里随意练一回拳,脚下的砖 石皆会裂开。这仅仅是略显身手的小玩意。 尚云祥无时不备的敏捷感应才是一种出神入化的绝技。“一个夏天,一个徒弟从窗户外见到尚云祥睡觉,有寺庙里 卧佛的宁静气派,生起恭敬之心,心里感慨:‘跟 着尚师傅,就能学出真东西。’这时尚云祥一下就醒了,说:‘我这个人睡觉时不能让人看,人一看,就醒。’” (第86页)“尚师睡觉的时候,在他身边说话、 走动都没事,可只要一把注意力放在他身上,尚师傅便挺身醒了。听着神奇,但练形意拳日子久了,一定会出现这 一效果。”(第39页)这种不可思议的敏捷感应 就是拳谱上所说 “随感而发,有触必应”,有了这种感应,哪怕睡觉时也不可能被人偷袭而遇害。

      李仲轩第一个师傅唐维禄的脚力非常神奇,据说一个晚上能行三四百里。“唐师绰号‘唐小猴’,孙禄堂绰号 ‘孙猴子’,是说两人皆有翻墙越脊之能, 两人并称为‘二禄’,谐音为‘二鹿’,是说两人皆有夜行三四百里的脚力。唐师来京,为了避免施展腿功惊扰了 路人,都是在宁河睡到一更天再动身,天亮时便到 了北京,途中还要偷越过几道关卡。”(第37页)有时唐维禄的速度还能追上火车:“形意门的怪事不敢讲。年 轻时,我一度住在丁志涛家。在那时,唐师给我们 表演过追火车。就是让我们坐一站的火车,唐师说了:‘我抄近道追你们啊。’等我们到了,见唐师在火车站等我 们呢,摇着扇子,身上没汗。能抄的近道,我们都 想了,抄上也不会那么快。我和丁志涛都不敢说话了。”(第49页)李仲轩还举了唐维禄快步如飞的另一个例子 :“日军侵占京津时期,唐维禄在京津两地往返, 夜里手拎灯笼,避开关卡走野地,有时快成一条线,由于走得多了,沿途设卡的伪军远远见了,就知道是唐师傅来 了,他们不开枪。笔者当时问:‘要是开枪呢?’ 李老说:‘开枪了也打不着。以前开过枪,枪一响,唐师傅就有了办法。’”(第64页)能追火车与躲闪远距离 开枪,乍闻之下,连笔者都无法信以为真,但像李 仲轩这样一位终身信守诺言不敢稍稍有违师训的武林前辈,为人处事朴实敦厚,犹存古风,决非是时下惯见的打诳 语的角儿。信乎不信乎?或许八卦拳名家孙禄堂的 腿功及速度可以提供一些参照:“孙禄堂的腿功,是新闻事件。他和段祺瑞坐敞篷汽车,逆风而行,车速很快。段 祺瑞头上戴着巴拿马草帽,被风吹走。孙禄堂跳下 车追到草帽后再追汽车,司机还没意识到有人跳车,他就已经回到车上。”

      武林奇事多,李仲轩说:“旧时代练武人时兴访人,练成了就四处走,谁出名就找谁……有个壮武师,访到一 个老头,老头说:‘我多大岁数了,比不 了。’壮武师非要比,这时有个人挑了两桶水过来,老头说:‘那就比吧,可你得容我喝口水。’拦住了挑水人, 没想到老头一喝就喝了一桶水,壮武师看呆了,老 头猛一张口,一口水把壮武师喷倒在地。我没见过练形意的人练这东西,原本以为是传说,但一次看戏,发现评剧 名角高月楼在舞台上表演这个。他在台下也表演, 一口水能喷出去很远,离他一步距离,挨他一口水,等于挨一个小拳头。”(第226-227页)

      最奇的还有这样一件事:“唐师有个徒弟叫丁志涛,被称为‘津东大侠’。天津东边两个村子争水,即将演变 成武打,丁志涛去了。动手的人过来,他一 发劲打得那人直愣愣站住,几秒钟都抬不了脚,这是形意的劈拳劲,一掌兜下去,能把人‘钉’在地上。他‘钉’ 了十几个人,就制止了这场武斗,也因此成名。” (第6页)当代世界贫富扩大,社会转型期间种种矛盾如暗潮涌动,海内外各地主政者正为如何应对“群体性事件 ”而烦恼不已,催泪弹与水龙头充其量只能发挥驱 散之功效,受众似乎并不畏惧,过后又可卷土重来;唯有一巴掌把人“钉”在地上动弹不得的中华武功,既有威慑 力而免杀伤力,双美俱全,圆融和谐,倒不失为化 解“群体性事件”的一种妙法,值得美国联邦警察署及英国皇家马队学习学习。

       中国的武功高手,虽是绝技惊人,但平日里并不显山露水,往往隐身于市井贩夫走卒之中,懒慵慵度日,如同传 说中的文殊菩萨,常在五台山以乞丐、老翁、村 姑、孩童相示人。例如:尚云祥经营帽子小买卖,“尚师早年是做帽子的,晚年生活来源的一部分是徒弟单广钦的 资助,单广钦做水果、糕点生意”(第10页)。 唐维禄有个师兄叫张景富,绰号“果子张”,“以炸油条为生,是曾任清宫武术教习申万林的弟子”(第17页) 。八卦拳名家程廷华以制眼镜为生,在北京崇文门 外开个眼镜铺,江湖上称之为“眼镜程”(第58页)。李仲轩的师弟丁志涛是杀猪的屠夫,“一天唐师带我去找 他,他正干活,将猪脊骨在案板上一磕就软了,骨 节散开。唐师拍拍我说:‘咱们的擒拿就是这个。’”(第31页)另外,八卦门中还有个点穴高手,据说“武功 与程廷华相当,绰号‘煤子马’,卖煤球的”(第 80页)。

      这些炸油条、卖煤球、制眼镜、杀肥猪的武功高手,佐证了一句“英雄不问出身”的老话,这当然仅仅是一方 面。另一方面武林中也有人物以轩昂面目现 身的:如形意拳大师李存义曾在两江总督刘坤一麾下任武官,训练士兵,屡建功绩。后往保定开设万通镖局,保护 南北商贾往来。庚子之变,率领弟子抗击八国联 军。晚年创办中华武士会,赴京参加“万国赛武大会”,击败俄国大力士康泰尔。再如将形意、八卦、太极三家武 艺合冶一炉,创立孙氏太极拳的孙禄堂,曾被民国 徐世昌聘入总统府,出任武宣官,有“虎头少保、天下第一手”的美誉。

      笔者曾浏览过民国金铁庵编辑的《金钟罩、铁布衫真传》、《一指禅、红砂手真传》等书,名称虽然惊心夺目 ,内容肯一吐秘技练法的不多。眼前这本口 述史虽然讲述了不少武林逸事,但最有价值的部分却是披露了不少数十年练武的经验之谈和往日秘而不宣的武功诀 窍。这些东西精湛非凡,小叩则小鸣,大叩则大 鸣,唯有缘者得之可获益匪浅。

      在当前《魔兽世界》与迪士尼乐园共舞、比萨饼与汉堡包齐飞的新时代中,以都市青年白领为代表的群体,终 日窝在转椅或沙发中工作、休闲,一个个养 得像肥嘟嘟不思动弹的肉鸡,缺乏一种清新刚健的姿态。这或许是拜过度工业化、城市化所赐的一种后果。夕阳西 下,往往会留给这个世界一抹彩霞,李仲轩老人辞 世前留下的这部口述史展示了另一种世界的别样风光,骠悍勇武,同样可以令人观赏感叹不已。
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-30-2012 at 08:06 AM.
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  12. #27
    Training for combat involves having a good idea of what form this combat would take, and thus what kind of training would be suitable. In merely a physical sense, I would train a few (a very few) moves/combinations that would be useful in the kind of situations that I (imagine I) would find myself in, and their variations.

    I would not restrict this to my 'training time' - but would be continually training in one way or another throughout the day. A lot depends on mental factors, and these would also be a feature of training... image training rather than meditation, incorporated with physical work.

    In any case, intensity, in all aspects, would be key. Given the degree to which the human body can take hard training with the danger of injury, injury management would also be important.

    Outcomes in combat also depend on tactical and strategic factors, and focussing on these aspects could pay dividends.

    graculus

  13. #28
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    Only people who are serious in combat (not just 1/2 serious) will spend time to develop "door guarding" skill. When you develop your "shin bite" against a tree trunk.

    - It's not good for your health.
    - Nothing to perform.
    - Nothing spiritual, self-cultivation, and inner peace.

    When nobody ever train their "door guarding" skill, how can we still claim that TCMA has any combat value?

    When you care about combat, you will spend more time to train your "finish moves", moves that can end fight ASAP. When you have that priority in mind, your daily training program will be different.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-30-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When you care about combat, you will spend more time to train your "finish moves", moves that can end fight ASAP. When you have that priority in mind, your daily training program will be different.
    I dunno. You see if you are in a life or death situation you are going to use any weapon available, or tooth and nail.

    If it is a less than life threatening situation, just a regular fight then you want to be as nice as possible because there will be legal ramifications to everything you do and you don't want the legal/moral/social problems attached to causing harm.

    So if you ARE into combat but BARE handed then I think you will want to focus on your 'defanging the wolf' techniques. If it is serious enough to ground and pound someone then it is serious enough to use any hard object you find lying around or to bite open the jugular.

    But then the very fact you have included the moral and social implications into your art it is no longer just for combat.....

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    - An old man spitted out water from his mouth to knock down challenger.
    When I practiced XinYiLiuHe they advocated spitting in the opponents face as a precursor to punching them. They also use to suggested sniffing the air before making the decision to enter combat. I think it is to engage ones instinct.

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