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Thread: Siu Lin tau

  1. #1

    Siu Lin tau

    Siu Lin tau of wing chun is analogous to San chin of white crane or karate .
    It is a critical training to build up the core mechanics in term of body mind, body structure, force handling, and momentum handling.


    This part of the wing chun is called the body of the art. This part of the art is for develop the unique body mechanics and skill to support the Wck applications requirements. That is how the traditional Chinese martial art work. An art has to have a complete body of the art and application of the art. Missing any part will make the art partial. Modern Wck lineage might evolve differently, however, a serious question is does one still learn Wck , or one has learn something evolve away , from what Wck is based on , but taking someone view which is not fully accord to the art of Wck.


    Yes, there is proper way of doing things or practicing snt, because the content of snt is well define in the past. It is a causal system to produce result. Not a freelance open sketch pad where anyone can sketch what they like. One certainly can sketch whatever they like, however, that is no longer Wck. But one's own creation .
    Last edited by Hendrik; 06-23-2013 at 11:52 AM.

  2. #2
    Screwing up siu Lin tau is screwing up Wck root .

    As in the history shows, in 1855 when the one set system was redesigned to become today's three sets system to train fighters for uprising, the part of training which is today's snt is transfer over almost totally. Thus, this shows the critica and important of this part of the training .

    If snt is not important and not useful, it will being cut away in 1855, and not sitting there for wasting energy for past 160 years.

    Not to say, NONE of any WCK player since 1900 up to this second have the experience or measure up to the 1855 Wck generation ,who involve in real life and death situation or battle , where the death count of 1855 alone is more then one million in canton. And thousands red boat members died in the battle from 1854 to the beginng of 1860 , where the red boat army were totally wipe out from the history of china. Realistically , even the famous dr. Leong jan is amature when compare with these real fighters who has to fight different style of martial art for life. But they all practice snt. That is For sure. Since either the one set system or three sets system , they practice the snt part. By evidence in the history record.


    The critical issue today is majority doesn't have a good snt training but adapting to western mind set which doesn't fit into Wck model. People starting to do things as they like and evolve things as they like. Thus, some of these so called Wck are more a western boxing practice with Wck looks. Or , on the other hand, southern shao Lin such as hung gar or northern taiji practice with wck look and evolve into a different type of art, but claim as authentic, Are these still Wck? That is a question we all need to face. But most of us choose to defend our ego and the big name of the sifu or lineage instead of honestly looking into the issue in the expense of Wck.

    So, do we know what the heck we are talking about? When it comes to snt?
    Last edited by Hendrik; 06-23-2013 at 12:34 PM.

  3. #3
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    [QUOTE=Hendrik;1235550]Screwing up siu Lin tau is screwing up Wck root ...

    ....So, do we know what the heck we are talking about? /QUOTE]

    From seeing your videos where you wobble all over the place with no idea root or upright stance, and from reading this nonsense you posted on this thread: you're guilty of the first statement and fail horribly at the second.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  4. #4
    Since you are not practicing Wck from the red boat, but a different type of art called Wck .
    I can understand you point.





    [QUOTE=JPinAZ;1235553]
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Screwing up siu Lin tau is screwing up Wck root ...

    ....So, do we know what the heck we are talking about? /QUOTE]

    From seeing your videos where you wobble all over the place with no idea root or upright stance, and from reading this nonsense you posted on this thread: you're guilty of the first statement and fail horribly at the second.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 06-23-2013 at 12:52 PM.

  5. #5
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    [QUOTE=Hendrik;1235554]Since you are not practicing Wck from the red boat, but a different type of art called Wck .
    I can understand you point.





    I suppose you claim to be Chinese and can read/write the language to study these Red Boat historic records? (大 大 大 大 ). You don't look Chinese in your video's.
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 06-23-2013 at 02:48 PM.

  6. #6
    I read Classical Chinese and ancient text.
    Was train in ancient Chinese literature , so, researching Chinese history is not an issue.



    Today, We do know very clear on red boat era history , include the official history and the hung mun or anti qing history on who is who at that time. Also tcma DNA .

    So, we do know what very likely to happen in 1850 in details , support and match up by the data from multiple field. Wck history is clear .

    So, which modern Wck lineage are making up history and non exist in the past we do know.




    The following is the outcome of the study by evidence . It is extremely likely to be this way. There is no mystery in Wck history but a tragic past which most ancestors avoid.

    The ancestors lost the uprising and only a few escape. They don't talk about history to avoid being track down and endanger their descendent or students. We can see these happen in the Chinese history 1850 to 1960, when family past is a big burdens . So they tell a different story to isolate their off spring from history facts.


    http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/sc...ystemscwcykwaa

    http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/ta...orfoescwcykwaa

    http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/sc...ykwaa-22229730

    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post

    I suppose you claim to be Chinese and can read/write the language to study these Red Boat historic records? (大 大 大 大 ). You don't look Chinese in your video's.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 06-23-2013 at 04:15 PM.

  7. #7
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    what is WCk, is it just wing chun or something else forgive my ignorance thianks.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFubar View Post
    what is WCk, is it just wing chun or something else forgive my ignorance thianks.
    1. Wck = Wing chun kuen.


    2. If you want to know about siu Lin tau 1850 , the following will give you a brief summary. All authentic wing Chun lineages such as yks, ipman , ... which traceable to the red boat has these contents. Not applicable to Benny meng's flag system wing chun kuen or shao lin Weng chun kuen.

    http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccw...-past-practice
    Last edited by Hendrik; 06-23-2013 at 03:45 PM.

  9. #9
    Wing chun kuen is no superman art, it is no magic, it has its strengths and weakness.

    We need to look at it in a practical way but not throw away the baby because we don't understand ancient Chinese way of system.


    IMHO, Wck now need to go back to look at the art from the root to proceed and grow further.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for clarification.

  11. #11
    You are welcome.

    We now know, but not if we don't do these studies for decades.


    Wck history is very interesting, Wck art is deep and pragmatic, we need to further study it. Be proud to be a wcner, because Wck indeed is very rich in culture and art.

    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    Thanks for clarification.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Wing chun kuen is no superman art, it is no magic, it has its strengths and weakness.

    We need to look at it in a practical way but not throw away the baby because we don't understand ancient Chinese way of system.


    IMHO, Wck now need to go back to look at the art from the root to proceed and grow further.
    Why do we need to go back? There are wing chun people fighting successfully in k1 and pro mma that is a very high level of performance. Does that not prove their training is working? It is kind of insulting to those people to suggest that although they train wing chun and can perform at a high level that they are doing wing chun wrong but that you know the right way.

    Why do we need to understand the ancient Chinese way of anything? I understand that is where we came from but just because we came from there does not mean we should stay there does it?

    I have listened to several of your videos now where you talk about your ideas. Are there any videos where you or anyone actually puts those ideas to use and makes them work in sparring or competition so that we can see your ideas working or is this just an idea you think should work?

  13. #13
    Why do we need to go back? ----------


    As explain above, we need to find out and know what is wing chun kuen clearly to make the training effective. Instead of taking what we think as what wing chun kuen is. But, still don't know what siu Lin tau is developing even though we keep mimic it.

    For example,
    white crane or karate uses its San chin set to develop their unique body type in order to support their applications.
    Similarly Southern praying mantis , Hsing Yee , Baji .....etc
    And wing chun kuen is using siu Lin tau set. But if we don't know how exactly siu nim tau works, we will not be able to effectively develop what needs to develop.




    There are wing chun people fighting successfully in k1 and pro mma that is a very high level of performance. Does that not prove their training is working? It is kind of insulting to those people to suggest that although they train wing chun and can perform at a high level that they are doing wing chun wrong but that you know the right way.---------


    Analogy to knowing one's own family tree history and family business is a different deal with any individual personal achievement. Both are aiding each others not counter each others.

    Further more, mma or k1 is not a reference of the contents of the wing chun kuen art ,also great individual personal training doesn't necessary means one knows how the sets work, they have great achievement which we must respect but they are not necessary represent the art of Wck.

    It is not up to me or them to have say on what is the Wck way, but upto the evidence of ancient to justify what is the Wck way.




    Why do we need to understand the ancient Chinese way of anything? I understand that is where we came from but just because we came from there does not mean we should stay there does it?----------


    If I am learning the music of Beethoven I better understand what Beethoven philosophy, practice , and uniqueness .

    Is it saying i needs to stay only in the Beethoven way?
    No.
    But knowing the Beethoven way clearly let me know exactly what it is, why it is, how it is, its strength and its weakness without guessing. And there by can perform Beethoven music as it is, instead of I think I know but I really think according to me , instead of knowing what Beethoven music is.





    I have listened to several of your videos now where you talk about your ideas. Are there any videos where you or anyone actually puts those ideas to use and makes them work in sparring or competition so that we can see your ideas working or is this just an idea you think should work? --------


    Many wcners including many in this forum has put the process i share into their practice and experience the result for themselves . They can tell you what they gain from their training. Those who have adapted to YKT and snake engine knows what is it like.


    also, such as the following YouTube , I suggest using the biofeedback machine as an independent reference to verify ones ability in a scientific way. That is a solid way to know the result of siu Lin tau practice.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzboUjmprU

    One cannot see physiological experience in video. But if you follow the process and using the machine , you can get to that experience. As example on the above utube, one cannot imagine what the ancient writing means and how is it when one has a coherence state which can handle stress. But if one was train with the emwave machine , one will be able recognize and access that physiology state.

    So, if one think their training can handle stress or pressure, just hook up the machine, see if one can enter to the coherence state at will? If one think he master the siu Lin tau training, then hook him to the machine and see if one can enter the coherence state when they practice the set.


    Thus, my view is to leave it to the ancient evidence and the scientific data reference to justify what the art of Wck is, instead of k1, mma, famous grand masters, great fighters, or me to tell what is the art of Wck.

    It is about let the art speak for itself by evidence and scientific data . Doesn't matter and independent to what I think.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 06-24-2013 at 07:31 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Since you are not practicing Wck from the red boat, but a different type of art called Wck .
    I can understand you point.
    Exactly. But don't get it wrong, same art since they are all WCK, but clearly FAR different understandings!

    And, my non-red boat system has 3 sets now and 3 sets in 1850 and 3 sets before that. So your 'theory' of this one, big super-set in 1850 is false - unless someone on a boat put them all together at that point just to break them all apart again?

    BTW, since WC is WC, Centerline is still centerline, and gravity is gravity regardless if it came off a boat or land. So your excuse for having no root, bad posture and wobbling around in your videos makes no sense just because it came off a boat.
    Oh wait, maybe the boat made you sea sick!! LOL
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 06-24-2013 at 08:25 AM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  15. #15
    Facts:

    1. From three main identify 1850 red boat wing chun kuen lineages, the Wong wah po, yik kam, and lo man Kung lineages, we know the facts is pre 1850, the Wck practice is one set. Three sets system comes after 1855, or post 1855.

    2. The core of Wck in red boat is snake and crane within the siu Lin tau set, and the snake technology dna is from emei and the crane technology is from white crane of fujian. We today have writing and matching Dna of 1850 to 1890 to prove these, and also agreement from the Asia Chinese martial art expert ie. Gm Lee Kong , the southern Chinese martial art expert and scholar.

    3. The yik kam and snake crane Wck lineages have traced their ancestors passed code with 1850 uprising anti Qing group and verified the identity of the ancestors. And the anti Qing operation the ancestors involve in, also match with the record within the Chinese official history.


    4. There is no shaolin Lin in 1850 when the three set concept was created. When the siu Lin tau created in the 1700s, there also has no shaolin involve. These are history facts. Indeed the anti Qing admit they are using the name of burning of shaolin in 1855 as a pseudonym of burning of the fine jade hall .



    Unless you can show the evidence as above, in term of Chinese history, trace able ancestors family tree, Chinese martial art DNA, traceable and match ancestors passed code with the anti Qing uprising , across fields or from different sources. your art is not Wck as of 1850 , a different art or might be a modern evolution of Wck.





    Btw,

    why is your siu lin tau dna show it is a subset of yip mam Wck mix with other components? Instead of having the common denominator DNA of 1850 wck slt from the three identifiable 1850 red boat era Wck?

    May be you want to explain that to the wing chun kuen community.


    These missing of common denominator DNA and mix with other components show by evidence it is a different art instead of the Wck as in Wong wah Bo, yik kam, lo man Kung, or ipman, yks, kulo , ...Wck.



    If you like to, please feel free to Show us your siu Lin tau YouTube and we can objectively analyzed it here point by point, mechanics by mechanics.

    Solid Evidence is the bottom line, as always


    Finally, I would like to say I have full respect to the art and lineage you practice, but if it is not Wck 1850 then it is not. That is a DNA issue.



    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Exactly. But don't get it wrong, same art since they are all WCK, but clearly FAR different understandings!

    And, my non-red boat system has 3 sets now and 3 sets in 1850 and 3 sets before that. So your 'theory' of this one, big super-set in 1850 is false - unless someone on a boat put them all together at that point just to break them all apart again?

    BTW, since WC is WC, Centerline is still centerline, and gravity is gravity regardless if it came off a boat or land. So your excuse for having no root, bad posture and wobbling around in your videos makes no sense just because it came off a boat.
    Oh wait, maybe the boat made you sea sick!! LOL
    Last edited by Hendrik; 06-24-2013 at 09:26 AM.

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