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Thread: Sifu Wang Zhi Peng Wooden Dummy Explanation

  1. #31
    ......................its not your fault though. It's your Clown leader!

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I don't consider for example LTWT and WSLVT to be the same system at all. Even though both are generally called "Wing Chun" and have the "same" forms, their philosophies are so different they can hardly be considered the same art. What you do in LTWT does not apply in WSLVT. It is not "within VT". It is foreign..
    To be sure, there are differences. That's not a problem, in my book.

    But what WZP mentions in that short video is very much in-line with LTWT. David Peterson recently wrote an article about LLHS-LSJC for Wing Chun Illustrated - that too has many similarities with LTWT ideas. WSL himself in seminar footage describes things in the forms the same way that LT describes them.

    For this reason, there are clearly cross-overs. So yes, I agree they are not the same system. But there are many connecting points. Within WSL lineages there are more conflicting points, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    My point is that some of what WZP is doing "within VT" is just as foreign as the shuaijiao or qinna he adds to it. Although it may resemble things from your art, remember, we (you, he, and I) don't train the same system at all.
    I too wasn't really looking at the throwing and locking he does, to be honest. I was talking purely about what he was doing with this VT work. It is not entirely the same as what I do, but what interested me was that it certainly appears to have the WSL engine behind it. It has that WSL flavor, no? Maybe to you it doesn't look anything like WSL VT, in which case, fair enough.

    But to me it seems to have that WSL flavor, but within that he talks about force, redirecting it, borrowing it etc, and these are certainly ideas found also in LTWT.

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Is he wrong? Well, no. He can do whatever he wants. Whether or not it's WSL's method is another question.
    I agree. But if you met him and you asked him about redirecting and borrowing force, and asked him did he learn this from his WSL lineage teacher, and did he in turn learn it from WSL, and he said "Yes, of course", would you consider him to be:

    a) A liar
    b) Someone confused on these points
    c) Someone who learned something which, simply, perhaps you/your teacher did not
    No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT View Post
    For example, I get the impression you cannot comprehend how PB might have missed something, not been taught something, misinterpreted something, etc. He's clearly very talented, but you can't know that he got the full picture (just like we can't know that David Peterson did, etc etc).
    Would you say more mistaken thinking is corrected by year-round personal instruction than off and on guidance?

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    You never give up do you?
    No. I just keep trying with you, hoping to break through

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I've yet to find something he may have missed. I'm the one that keeps making discoveries and the more I find out the more I stand by what I say.
    Okay, but I'm interested in how you see this. If WZP and whomever else talk about redirecting force, but PB does not, how do you know that WZP introduced it himself, and that PB didn't miss it?

    I think it is impossible to know it, 100%. What I find interesting is that some of the PB students seem absolutely convinced that if something in this art is trained by others and it is something not in the PB system, then it must be wrong, or misinterpreted, or a misconceived understanding of a concept, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    If you say so but I'm yet to read anything you write that makes sense.
    That's what I'm talking about! You are so convinced that what you learn is the one true way, that you can't even understand what someone else is saying. Your mind is so closed to it, it just doesn't compute.

    I think you might have been brainwashed a little, you know...
    Last edited by BPWT; 08-06-2013 at 03:10 AM.
    No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Would you say more mistaken thinking is corrected by year-round personal instruction than off and on guidance?
    I would say that a fundamental misunderstanding would have been corrected in mere minutes - by WSL or by any teacher.

    But it does raise an interesting point. Maybe WSL taught his system the same way Yip Man taught his. Different people got different info, some got more than others, some were taught in detail, some not, etc.

    And everyone thinks their teacher got it all.
    No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT View Post
    But what WZP mentions in that short video is very much in-line with LTWT. David Peterson recently wrote an article about LLHS-LSJC for Wing Chun Illustrated - that too has many similarities with LTWT ideas.
    In DP's Cham-kiu DVD he even borrows some analogies from writings of LT to illustrate a point on sensitivity and the proper way to perform the yi-bong/laan-sau section- slowly so as to feel and borrow the opponent's force. He says it should be like the first section in SNT and that if someone does it fast and with power then they've misunderstood it. But no video you can find of WSL has him doing it slowly the way DP does. I think in his off time away from HK and WSL, DP must have done some reading and filled in some blanks himself. That's what you do when you have off and on guidance, rather than year-round instruction and hands-on access to your sifu.

    I agree. But if you met him and you asked him about redirecting and borrowing force, and asked him did he learn this from his WSL lineage teacher, and did he in turn learn it from WSL, and he said "Yes, of course", would you consider him to be:

    a) A liar
    b) Someone confused on these points
    c) Someone who learned something which, simply, perhaps you/your teacher did not
    I would consider at some point along the transmission some blanks were filled by looking at other approaches. As I said in another thread, the more time people spent with WSL the more their thinking matches PB's. The less time, the less so. That says a lot.

    WSL did used to say people will often add things to VT for lack of understanding.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT View Post
    I would say that a fundamental misunderstanding would have been corrected in mere minutes - by WSL or by any teacher.
    Yes, and my point being that when you're a visiting student, when you go back home you're left to yourself and your mistakes. Without daily hands-on access to your sifu you're likely to start looking around, thinking away, taking advice from other sources, etc. to fill in your gaps. Then when you revisit, those mistakes may not be presented to your sifu and left to persist. Your sifu will know your mistakes a lot more if you are a full-time student and he will fill your gaps.

  8. #38
    My thoughts that BPWT is a little retarded are definately being proven right!

    Why do you keep saying that I have been blinded by one true way? My way is based on years of trial and error within other lineages.

    Unlike you I am one of those people that if I see something that I do not understand I go to find out. As well as that if people make claims I will also go and find out.

    As for Ving Tsun PB is considered one of the best students and representations of WSLVT. I'm not interested in anything else because I have proven to myself that other systems compared to WSLPBVT are less than below average....................in my experience.

    Do you not see that or what?

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I would consider at some point along the transmission some blanks were filled by looking at other approaches. As I said in another thread, the more time people spent with WSL the more their thinking matches PB's. The less time, the less so. That says a lot.
    That may well be the case. So who studied with WSL the longest? What did they write or record on the subject? So a comparison can be made between their understanding and others.

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Yes, and my point being that when you're a visiting student, when you go back home you're left to yourself and your mistakes. Without daily hands-on access to your sifu you're likely to start looking around, thinking away, taking advice from other sources, etc. to fill in your gaps.
    That too might be true. So out of interest, how many years did PB spend in Hong Kong, learning directly from WSL?
    No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    My way is based on years of trial and error within other lineages. Unlike you I am one of those people that if I see something that I do not understand I go to find out.
    Okay, so you tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I'm not interested in anything else because I have proven to myself that other systems compared to WSLPBVT are less than below average....................in my experience.
    Okay, so even in a single post you confuse things.

    You are the sort of person who goes to find out, but you also not interested in anything else, based, by your own admission, on your past experience. So what you learned years ago has closed your mind to any future new understanding or appraisal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Why do you keep saying that I have been blinded by one true way?
    See above. Because you keep telling us this yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    My thoughts that BPWT is a little retarded...
    So a conflicting view means, to you, mental deficiency?
    No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT View Post
    I would say that a fundamental misunderstanding would have been corrected in mere minutes - by WSL or by any teacher.

    But it does raise an interesting point. Maybe WSL taught his system the same way Yip Man taught his. Different people got different info, some got more than others, some were taught in detail, some not, etc.

    And everyone thinks their teacher got it all.
    Ving Tsun is VERY ABSTRACT in it approach to combat. It is easy in a room of students to converse about a subject and hear that several students didn't hear " that part " of an explanation. Or they think the pressure we exchange with each other is a 1:1 for combat. : /
    I know from experience that you will feel force from PB, in milliseconds of striking exchanges. He will push/palm so he doesn't break your jaw, his control skill allows precise shots , iow he doesn't have to push it just so he doesn't break the partners he is working with.
    When we do vt we have to have a " partner " who is matching our lines of force and pressure us to test balance, coordination of arms etc... It is easy to get into the idea of fighting with bridges constantly exchanging force.
    But you try this in a boxing exchange or muay thai and you're going to find yourself chasing air.
    Philipp directly mentioned that the exercises we do are abstract intentionally due to the nature of our focus in drills. The elbows have no way of getting a workout except from equally minded students. So the chest strikes vt has been labeled with aren't to attack the sternum, its the line our fist takes when the partner strikes so each uses elbow joint angles together. If we strike jaw to jaw our wrists make primary force in drills. We push on elbows and move our stances to recover positions but we can't expect an opponent to do this too. Iow it's abstract nature of the elbow drilling gets confused for fighting 1:1.
    WZP is working WITH another vt guy issuing similar lines of force.

  12. #42
    VT is like an ice berg. Visually if you see vt or learn from observation you get " skin and hair " tip of the ice berg not a deeper structural stability or the significant submerged portion of skill in unity of mass in motion. No short range ko force so the compensation moves to touch arms trying to hit us .To develop this unity of force requires mutual fraternal goals to defeat common enemies.

    VTs own popularity and living off the fighting reputation left it arrogantly unopposed to many so it's easy to see the egos turned on themselves internally . The ranks of vt used drills to fight others as fighting period. Abstract turned into 1:1 , elbows got lost for wrists in the ensuing 1000's of unchecked teachers and students lost the way.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 08-06-2013 at 04:39 AM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Would you say more mistaken thinking is corrected by year-round personal instruction than off and on guidance?
    Hey kev how far are you away from PB again ...

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Hey kev how far are you away from PB again ...

    Face to face his fist to my jaw, lost count. I had a black and blue punch mark on my sternum from same power shots he hit me with.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 08-27-2013 at 08:47 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT View Post
    That may well be the case. So who studied with WSL the longest? What did they write or record on the subject? So a comparison can be made between their understanding and others.



    That too might be true. So out of interest, how many years did PB spend in Hong Kong, learning directly from WSL?
    Not only in Hong Kong. WSL spent a lot of time with him in Europe as well and was in the process of moving over there. Someone closer could answer your question more accurately. All I know is, the less time spent with WSL, the more folks tend to incorporate the 'sensitivity' and other 'skills' found in other general WC lineages, the more time, the less so.

    Take the three western students you mentioned in this thread for example;

    CP => DP => PB

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