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Thread: Archery

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    Sorry all my typos I'm on a phone and I suck at texting
    Hi Lucas.

    Archers in general have that skeleton issue. Even Olympic archers that use less than 50lb bows. It could be consider similar to baseball players also having skeleton changes from throwing a ball. It does not show up in Soccer ( football for the offended) players. The ball is light. Weight is not the real issue of the malady. Doing a motion over and over and I assume one sided is the cause.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    major problems faced by enemies of mongols were their arrows could not bring them down. mongol cavalry were reported to fight normally while being covered in 50+ arrows. the same problem was problem was faced by jin archer conscripts who could not penetrate the 4 inch thick tower shields of general yue feis army, and likewise chinese archers who could not penetrate double lamenar armor of jin iron tower cataphract and hammer cavalry. this was what pushed for the development of firearms
    Cloth and especially silk is surprisingly good at deflecting or at least stopping arrows. Samurai messengers dragged "parachutes" made of silk. Mongols wore silk shirts. Arrows would often penetrate their flesh but could be pulled out by the surrounding cloth without doing much damage. Crusading knights wore long overcloaks. They are reported to have looked like needle cushions after battles.

  3. #123
    Fact is, until the MaryRose I do not believe their was a single surviving LongBow from that time period. And prior to that I am unsure anyone believed top weight of longbow went about 110lbs. Most agreed within the 70-90lb range. They possibly base these weights off of bows that survived from latter periods.

    So, now , sure why not, we found a Ship with some rather large men, ( again well above average standards for men of that time frame) who happened to be holding a bit more than 100 bows. At larger weights. 100+ and up. All of a sudden we toss common sense out the window and credit people whos life did not revolve around a bow , with abilities of massive pulls and the deadliest archers ever. Over glorification in my opinion. Yet, these same people seem to have not read they considered those men on that ship the very TOP of the heap for HeavyBowmen. That gets chucked and now everysingle English farmer that touched a longbow can pull 165 100s of times during battle. Also failing to understand war cost and that FACT not enough arrows were ever issuedan archer to achieve that volume PERIOD ! Nope, numbnuts run with same base numbers and recreate things that never happened.

    Now, long forgot is the guy on the battlefields with his tiny little bow of 50 or a smaller 70 because ALL LONGBOWS NOW had to be over 100+ pounds.

    And don't use logic to try and debate often inaccurate and incorrect HISTORICAL FACT.

    How about this, Who started WW2 and Who was the most evil people during that time period? I know the poster boy. WE ALL DO ! Now, remove your emotions, pride and things sold you prior. THINK !!!

  4. #124
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    So yesterday when I took my eldest to archery class ( Sofia loves archery since she saw Hunger games), I asked the guy there if they have any serious bows, with heavy draw weights and he gave me a 75 and 100lb bow.
    So I did what any red-blooded Portuguese- Canadian MA with an attitude would do, spend half n hour shooting like an englishman !!
    LOL !

    Observations:
    Not as hard as I thought and it got easier as time went by as I a got some pointers about drawing big bows ( push and pull, not just pull for example).
    Accuracy was not as good simply because, as I was told, this is not the type of bow you draw and HOLD while aiming. The analogy of a shotgun VS a rifle is good:
    You AIM a rifle but you POINT a shotgun.
    Now, I am a strong boy as most of you know but truth be told, technique was more important.

    In short, drawing a 100lbs bow is NOT a big deal and you can draw and shoot for 30 min with no problem, though not at the rate as you would with a lighter draw weight of course.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Hi Lucas.

    Archers in general have that skeleton issue. Even Olympic archers that use less than 50lb bows. It could be consider similar to baseball players also having skeleton changes from throwing a ball. It does not show up in Soccer ( football for the offended) players. The ball is light. Weight is not the real issue of the malady. Doing a motion over and over and I assume one sided is the cause.
    True, but not to the same degree by any means. It would be akin to comparing Mike tysons fist to pan qing fu's iron fist deformity. An English longbow of this calibre man was a one sided archer. It's surmised, based off skeletal remains, that the average longbow man trained and grown in the traditional manner would likely have been able to lift a 200lb weight with their draw arm easily above their head, one handed. The deformity is extreme in these cases. There are records of those arrows punching through oak trees. Their bows were crafted on an individual basis by the village bowyer
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  6. #126
    Empirical.

    This is FACT. I appreciate you doing you experiment. So, we have one. By his own admission, he is rather strong. Bawang, I don't believe you are a very large man. Got a 100 pound bow and a half hour?

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    True, but not to the same degree by any means. It would be akin to comparing Mike tysons fist to pan qing fu's iron fist deformity. An English longbow of this calibre man was a one sided archer. It's surmised, based off skeletal remains, that the average longbow man trained and grown in the traditional manner would likely have been able to lift a 200lb weight with their draw arm easily above their head, one handed. The deformity is extreme in these cases. There are records of those arrows punching through oak trees. Their bows were crafted on an individual basis by the village bowyer
    I do not believe men were using those larger pulls overall. I believe in the 70-90 pound range. That becomes much more likely a guy not to much shorter than myself can lob arrows. But Im not hunting with those weights.

  8. #128
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    I tried to add this article off but can't but you can Google it. Also look into Bernard cornwells research sources. I tend to be in alignment with his data records that he shares for his historical fiction novel about the English longbow

    THE ARCHER’S TALE: AN EXAMINATION OF ENGLISH ARCHERS
    DURING THE HUNDRED YEARS WAR AND THEIR

    IMPACT ON WARFARE AND SOCIETY

    A thesis presented to the Faculty of the U.S. Army
    Command and General Staff College in partial
    fulfillment of the requirements for the
    degree
    MASTER OF MILITARY ART AND SCIENCE
    Military History
    by
    STEPHEN S. TALIAFERRO, MAJOR, U.S. ARMY
    B.A., University of Arkansas, Fayetteville, Arkansas, 2003
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    True, but not to the same degree by any means. It would be akin to comparing Mike tysons fist to pan qing fu's iron fist deformity. An English longbow of this calibre man was a one sided archer. It's surmised, based off skeletal remains, that the average longbow man trained and grown in the traditional manner would likely have been able to lift a 200lb weight with their draw arm easily above their head, one handed. The deformity is extreme in these cases. There are records of those arrows punching through oak trees. Their bows were crafted on an individual basis by the village bowyer
    Based off which Skeletal remains from where ?

    And again, There was a law in acted to even get these men to use their bows. WHY ? They would rather do other things? It was not France who started that War.

  10. #130
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    See previous post, then follow all.the sources and do your own research cornwell is a n author but is also an English historian. Research his sources
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  11. #131
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    I don't care about the war or any of this really I'm talking strictly the village arches and their bows. I've read his sources. Go do it yourself.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    I tried to add this article off but can't but you can Google it. Also look into Bernard cornwells research sources. I tend to be in alignment with his data records that he shares for his historical fiction novel about the English longbow

    THE ARCHER’S TALE: AN EXAMINATION OF ENGLISH ARCHERS
    DURING THE HUNDRED YEARS WAR AND THEIR

    IMPACT ON WARFARE AND SOCIETY

    A thesis presented to the Faculty of the U.S. Army
    Command and General Staff College in partial
    fulfillment of the requirements for the
    degree
    MASTER OF MILITARY ART AND SCIENCE
    Military History
    by
    STEPHEN S. TALIAFERRO, MAJOR, U.S. ARMY
    B.A., University of Arkansas, Fayetteville, Arkansas, 2003

    Thanks , I did not see this post. Found the Mil Doc-

    In the nineteenth and twentieth century many historians posited the theory of the
    “short bow” to explain the seemingly sudden reliance the English placed on archers in the fourteenth century.4 According to the theory, the longbow was a relatively new
    technological development originating in Wales. The longbow was incorporated into
    English formations during the reign of Edward I (1272 to 1307) in the late thirteenth
    century after his extensive campaigns in Wales. The bows used in western medieval
    warfare before this time were short bows drawn only to the chest as opposed to the
    4 For more on the original theory of the rise of the longbow see Charles Oman, The Art of War in the Middle Ages (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1986), 116122; John Edward Morris, The Welsh Wars of Edward I (Oxford: Clarenden Press, 1901), 100-103.
    8
    longbow which is drawn to the ear. These short bows were thought to be largely ineffective against even lightly armored men.5

  13. #133
    Inside that doc one will also find Horse Archers were the larger Bowman unit. Now, were they pulling 100 pound bows? Horse Archers can quickly become foot archers. Horses are primary targets then. What do Horsemen do ? How can they apply a smaller lighter bow effectively? Would they be using 100+ bows up close?

    But it comes back to the heavy longbow. The KING on the field and it was not. And I still do not believe the whole of those guys were using 100+ bows just because some got found on the Rose.

    Also, Lars proved his little toy 35 can penetrate chain. Most guys wore, chain.

    As to Cormwells book, Ill see if I can find it online otherwise it is doubtful I will bother going to a library to obtain it. So were the previous historians correct or the later rethink ?

    But now one see's. This historian believes this. Another that. It was likely unable to penetrate even the lightest of armour yet. Lars proved I can do it rather easily. Not all Longbows are MANBOWS, LOL. I side with the shortbows were on the battlefield. I believe much easier to train guys to be effective with lighterbows than Heavy.

    I will of course have to read this DOC fully when I have more time.

    Thank you for the information.

  14. #134

    Also, that DOC jogged my memory. Some may enjoy this


  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Accuracy was not as good simply because, as I was told, this is not the type of bow you draw and HOLD while aiming. The analogy of a shotgun VS a rifle is good:
    You AIM a rifle but you POINT a shotgun.
    In Kyudo you learn how to aim with your toes. Imagine a line through the tips of your toes and the target. Then draw the bow. Accuracy comes from repeating these movements.

    Stone age bows such as Ötzi's and the Holmegaard bow were long bows over 1.80m btw.

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