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Thread: Nice version of vinh xuan

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_H View Post
    I know what I'm looking for, it's not present. Body structure doesn't lie.
    Body structure is one level, there are other higher levels

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Body structure is one level, there are other higher levels
    A few random complaints...

    I get so tired of these kinds of snooty-sounding remarks. Translation: "I know more secret, higher level stuff, therefore what you say is poo".

    Another thing... all this stuff about mainland WC. What's up with that? I mean after all GM Yip Man learned and taught his art on the mainland too. Sure he became famous during his exile to Hong Kong. The stuff on the mainland was isolated behind what used to be called the "Bamboo Curtain" for about forty years, but that doesn't make it older, better, or more authentic. It just makes it different.

    Finally everybody is so quick to generalize and judge. I don't see how you can judge anything very well from just a short videoclip. Really, to know anything for certain it's best to cross bridges.

    Oh and about that hand-circling chi-sau. We do something very similar in the Yip Man branch I train with. That's in addition to the standard Luk-Sau rolling. Perhaps my old Sifu picked it up on his early trips back to the mainland way back in the 80s. Or perhaps Yip Man showed it to him. I don't know. But I believe it's useful training.

    BTW, Eric, when we do that kind of drill, we do maintain an awareness of classic WC structure and centerline.
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  3. #18
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    Ignoring the snarky 'I have higher level WC than you do' BS comments, I agree with those that say you can engage from the inside or outside. It really depends on where your hands are during Bai Jong. There are times when you won't even have time to bring up your guard before a punch is thrown and there are WC mechanics, body methods and tools that allow us to protect the centerline from out to in (as well as the obvious inside methods)

    In HFY, one example that comes to mind is part of our Cheurn Kiu Sau long bridge methods. Loi Lap Sau application can be used for engaging on center and going from in to out (in a simple sense), and Noi Gwa Sau to bridge out to in and bringing an attack from outside the box to inside the box while establishing WC centerline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    BTW, Eric, when we do that kind of drill, we do maintain an awareness of classic WC structure and centerline.
    Not trying to answer for Eric, but I see the same thing he does in this clip. And I don't doubt you or someone else can do something similar and still have an awareness of WC structure - it's simply not being demonstrated in the clip that was linked

    And as a general comment, I don't see centerline either in this clip - 'higher level' or otherwise
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Body structure is one level, there are other higher levels
    Not in that clip!

  5. #20
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    Here's the Pin Sun version. And Jim does have good body structure. I've felt it. Because I have "crossed bridges" with him as Grumblegeezer suggests.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KpRjsFlL1Q
    Last edited by KPM; 10-15-2013 at 05:30 PM.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK!
    And just like all chi sao, completely unrelated to anything having to do with full on application against a fully resisting opponent.

  7. #22
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    Here is a "double inward circles" used in grappling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bZY...ature=youtu.be

    Whether it may work in the striking game or not, it has not been tested fully. It just proves that the strategy "leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward" is a general TCMA concept. It doesn't belong to any particular TCMA system.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-15-2013 at 08:02 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Here is a "double inward circles" used in grappling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bZY...ature=youtu.be
    Thanks for that interesting clip, John. But with those X-men "Cyclops" glasses, why not just blast him with your laser vision?

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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    ---But labels are important! How would we know what someone else is talking about without being able to categorize or label it?
    Labels are for those that are buying products.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    ---I invite anyone to go back and look at that clip again. The Chi Sao they are doing is not simply "Huen Chi Sao" circling wrists. It is more like the Pin Sun Chi Sao that uses a coiling action. In Pin Sun it is often described as "two snakes seeking an opening." If you watch closely you will see some Bong Sao's naturally resulting in the action. If you've done both this kind of Chi Sao and the Yip Man Luk Sao Chi Sao it is easy to see how the Yip Man/Yuen Kay San version evolved from this older rolling platform. This also supports the idea that the Luk Sao roll was developed by either Yuen Kay San or Yip Man and shared. Vietnamese Wing Chun comes from Yuen Kay San's brother. The brother learned from the same source as YKS, but likely didn't learn the Luk Sao roll because it doesn't show up in the lineage he established in Viet Nam. Yip Man WCK and Yuen Kay San WCK seem to be the only lineages with the Luk Sao rolling platform. When we see it in other lineages, its likely because they have picked it up fairly recently.
    Nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    ---The story told by Sum Nung was that Yuen Kay San was the one that came up with the Luk Sao rolling in association with Sum Nung himself and Yip Man. Hard to know one way or the other. But given that YKS was older and more senior than Yip Man.......
    Seriously... you are still debating who came up with what? Rather than look a little more deeply and see that it was all there in the first place? I have heard these stories too and you know the only constant? Ip Man.

    FWIW and FME There is more to Ip Mans interactive platforms than Luksau and Chisau. Like the LT guys, I have a few other terms for interactive training that all trace back to and through Ip Man himself, Ng Jung So and Chan Wah Shun. As most already know we also connect through Wong Wah Sam and Fung Sang too, but people prefer to promote areas and villages rather than the real life people behind all this knowledge. Maybe this is because all we have is lists of names with little evidence of their existence other than the list of names!

    From what I have been told, there were very specific and serious reasons why Lee Shing baisi to Ip Man, and why that was rushed too. He had travelled throughout East Asia beforehand searching out the Masters. Nothing to do with teaching publically either, because in the 60's it was one single Wing Chun Pai.

    His students however were not bound by any codes of conduct so basically done what they wanted after 1991, and some done what they wanted decades before that! All, however, have a different interactive platform than, say, WSL students, or Victor Kan students. Man, they even have different ways from eachother lol! But I find it very interesting that the platform is most similar to the Chisau of Simon Lau and Wai Po Tang! Both originating from mainland Wing Chun schools, and both very influential in the early UK Wing Chun scene.

    So who created what exactly? It's all pure speculation IMHO

    Just my five pence...
    Ti Fei
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  10. #25
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    Labels are for those that are buying products.

    ---No. Labels are a way of categorizing things and categorizing things are necessary in a discussion setting. Can you imagine trying to talk about football without "labeling" the various teams, coaches, etc.?


    Seriously... you are still debating who came up with what? Rather than look a little more deeply and see that it was all there in the first place? I have heard these stories too and you know the only constant? Ip Man.

    ---I'm not debating anything. I threw the idea out there on a thread showing a Chi Sao platform. You can take it or leave it. If you've heard the stories too, then you'll know that Yip Man is not the only constant. Yuen Kay San is a constant as well. There was definitely a link between the two and the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform.


    but people prefer to promote areas and villages rather than the real life people behind all this knowledge. Maybe this is because all we have is lists of names with little evidence of their existence other than the list of names!

    ---I have no idea what you are trying to say here Spencer.


    From what I have been told, there were very specific and serious reasons why Lee Shing baisi to Ip Man, and why that was rushed too. He had travelled throughout East Asia beforehand searching out the Masters. Nothing to do with teaching publically either, because in the 60's it was one single Wing Chun Pai.

    ---And what does that have to do with this discussion? Does everything come down to Lee Shing for you?


    So who created what exactly? It's all pure speculation IMHO

    ---Yeah. It is all speculation. But some things fit with what we know better than other things and therefore seem more likely. The fact is, there is no evidence that anyone was using the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San. It seems to have started with these two gentleman. Exactly which of them was the innovator is hard to say since we weren't there. But more than one source has stated that it was Yuen Kay San. And at least one of those sources (Sum Nun) was actually there.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Can you imagine trying to talk about football without "labeling" the various teams, coaches, etc.?
    Football is a funny old game, pretty much a product for sale these days. Wing Chun is a Martial Art that was never supposed to be marketed and sold as a product. But I do understand your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    If you've heard the stories too, then you'll know that Yip Man is not the only constant. Yuen Kay San is a constant as well. There was definitely a link between the two and the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform.
    So if you know this and have experienced what you talk of... show it!

    Break it down in a clip or two and show the exact development you are talking about. It will become clearer for everyone if somebody can just do that. And the same can be asked of anyone from YKS family too, but as far as I have seen nobody has been able to share anything like I am asking. But please... be the first!

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    ---And what does that have to do with this discussion? Does everything come down to Lee Shing for you?
    Er... well... yes it does.

    Maybe this is because I am a student of one of his students? Maybe it is because I am loyal to just one Sifu? Maybe it's because I am simply nuts?

    And yes, it is related to the thread because I was simply 'throwing it out there' that there was more people than YKS out there developing the best way to interact! 11 others directly related to be fair. And after all my Sigungs research and training, he chose to represent Ip Man because of what he had developed, or like you say, possibly learnt from his elders like YKS.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    The fact is, there is no evidence that anyone was using the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San.
    Ok I will throw something else into the mix... the programs I learnt included quite a few set currculums (including Ip Mans) written in Chinese. Curriculums I say, not Kuit or poems or such like. Curriculums.

    One was of the interactive developments known to Wing Chun students, and two of them were Luksau and Chisau among others. As far as I know this was not made up information or language, it had existed in Ng Jung So's time and possibly been taught by Chan Wah Shun all the way back to Leung Jan. This is what Ip Man had access to and it's likely it came from the Fatshan schools.

    So my query is, if the language existed before even Ip Man and YKS had ever met, then maybe all they done was attempt to figure out what these platforms were about? Thus developing what we think is new, but in fact only reinventing what was already there... Chisau and Luksau.

    For me, that sounds far more logical because again, like I have said, there were guys like Simon Lau and Wai Po Tang teaching in London in the 70s and 80s and they had a different platform than Ip Mans HK guys that was more familiar to me when I trained. Both learnt from Fatshan and Vietnam too funnily enough, and both had to go through my Sigung and ask permission from Ip Man before they taught in the UK!

    So when I see clips like the one posted, it only strengthens the case that the mainland doesn't know or has any interest in what was developed later by YKS, Ip Man or whoever!! They are all too keen to preserve and promote what they do now, and all repsect to them for that!
    Ti Fei
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  12. #27
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    So if you know this and have experienced what you talk of... show it!

    ---Show what? What do you want me to do?

    Break it down in a clip or two and show the exact development you are talking about.

    ---A clip of what? All you have to do is look at the Chi Sao clips here, then compare it to any of Yip Man lineage or Yuen Kay San lineage people doing Chi Sao. There was no intermediate step.


    It will become clearer for everyone if somebody can just do that. And the same can be asked of anyone from YKS family too, but as far as I have seen nobody has been able to share anything like I am asking. But please... be the first!

    ---Maybe because no one has been sure of what you are asking for?


    And yes, it is related to the thread because I was simply 'throwing it out there' that there was more people than YKS out there developing the best way to interact! 11 others directly related to be fair. And after all my Sigungs research and training, he chose to represent Ip Man because of what he had developed, or like you say, possibly learnt from his elders like YKS.

    ---Ok. Again I will say....it is unclear to me what you are getting at. Lee Shing chose to represent Yip Man because of what he had developed or possibly learnt from YKS? How does that change what I said?


    One was of the interactive developments known to Wing Chun students, and two of them were Luksau and Chisau among others.

    ---But who wrote these documents and when?

    As far as I know this was not made up information or language, it had existed in Ng Jung So's time and possibly been taught by Chan Wah Shun all the way back to Leung Jan. This is what Ip Man had access to and it's likely it came from the Fatshan schools.

    ---Look Spencer. I am simply going by logic and available evidence. The various Weng Chun lineages claim descent through Fung Siu Ching. They don't use a Luk Sao Chi Sao platform. When Leung Jan retired to Ku Lo village what he taught did not include a Luk Sao Chi Sao platform. I have studied Pin Sun Wing Chun and it does not have the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform. What footage I have seen from Chan Wah Shun lineage does not show the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform. So based on the evidence I have had available, it seems that the generation prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San did not do this kind of Chi Sao. If you have evidence to the contrary, then I'm open to seeing it!

    So my query is, if the language existed before even Ip Man and YKS had ever met,

    ---What "language" are to talking about? Remember, you are the one that so objects to categorizing or labeling anything. So just what do these documents say?


    For me, that sounds far more logical because again, like I have said, there were guys like Simon Lau and Wai Po Tang teaching in London in the 70s and 80s and they had a different platform than Ip Mans HK guys

    --- If they were doing a different Chi Sao platform than Yip Man's guys, logic would seem to suggest to me that Lee Shing taught them this from the Wing Chun methods he studied apart from Yip Man. Perhaps they were doing the Chi Sao platform from Pin Sun?


    ---I'd also like to take this opportunity to post a redaction to something I wrote before. It has been pointed out to me by someone from that lineage, that YKS's brother, Yuen Chai Wan, did indeed teach the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform when he emigrated to Northern Viet Nam. So it is likely he took part in its development. Which makes sense given that he would have been training with his brother and with Yip Man prior to leaving China.
    Last edited by KPM; 10-16-2013 at 09:55 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Football is a funny old game, pretty much a product for sale these days. Wing Chun is a Martial Art that was never supposed to be marketed and sold as a product. But I do understand your point.



    So if you know this and have experienced what you talk of... show it!

    Break it down in a clip or two and show the exact development you are talking about. It will become clearer for everyone if somebody can just do that. And the same can be asked of anyone from YKS family too, but as far as I have seen nobody has been able to share anything like I am asking. But please... be the first!



    Er... well... yes it does.

    Maybe this is because I am a student of one of his students? Maybe it is because I am loyal to just one Sifu? Maybe it's because I am simply nuts?

    And yes, it is related to the thread because I was simply 'throwing it out there' that there was more people than YKS out there developing the best way to interact! 11 others directly related to be fair. And after all my Sigungs research and training, he chose to represent Ip Man because of what he had developed, or like you say, possibly learnt from his elders like YKS.



    Ok I will throw something else into the mix... the programs I learnt included quite a few set currculums (including Ip Mans) written in Chinese. Curriculums I say, not Kuit or poems or such like. Curriculums.

    One was of the interactive developments known to Wing Chun students, and two of them were Luksau and Chisau among others. As far as I know this was not made up information or language, it had existed in Ng Jung So's time and possibly been taught by Chan Wah Shun all the way back to Leung Jan. This is what Ip Man had access to and it's likely it came from the Fatshan schools.

    So my query is, if the language existed before even Ip Man and YKS had ever met, then maybe all they done was attempt to figure out what these platforms were about? Thus developing what we think is new, but in fact only reinventing what was already there... Chisau and Luksau.

    For me, that sounds far more logical because again, like I have said, there were guys like Simon Lau and teaching in London in the 70s and 80s and they had a different platform than Ip Mans HK guys that was more familiar to me when I trained. Both learnt from Fatshan and Vietnam too funnily enough, and both had to go through my Sigung and ask permission from Ip Man before they taught in the UK!

    So when I see clips like the one posted, it only strengthens the case that the mainland doesn't know or has any interest in what was developed later by YKS, Ip Man or whoever!! They are all too keen to preserve and promote what they do now, and all repsect to them for that!

    Spencer stop talking out your back crevice you do anything say anything to put the lee shing on some Big fat pedal stool you Tool ..You know fully well Simon lau was taught by lee shing ...Wai Po Tang was taught by Simon lau and to verify that you could see him on the way of the warrior smacking up some girl who got the better of him And the only interactive crap you learnt is that flag waving garbage.. Man I hate f%&%ing liars ..The primary reasons why Wcs moving so frigging slow in the 21st century

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Here's the Pin Sun version. And Jim does have good body structure. I've felt it. Because I have "crossed bridges" with him as Grumblegeezer suggests.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KpRjsFlL1Q
    With the hunched over stances, I don't even see proper self centerline in this one... Pretty hard to have any fwd intent that way, let alone 'body structure' as I know it.

    As Eric stated early on: no centerline, no wing chun.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  15. #30
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    The fact is, there is no evidence that anyone was using the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San.


    Actually Keith this is incorrect. Yui Choi system uses Luk Sao and the rolling is even shown and is part of their Chum Kui Form. Yui Choi learned his Chum Kui from Ng Chung So. NGS's school was a central meeting and training place for all wing chun in Foshan in the 20's and 30's. Yui Kai told stories many times of watching his father along with Yip Man YKS Jui Chiu and Jui Wan training and exchanging at the school. It is much more likely based on the objective evidence that the rolling platform was an outgrown of the training that went on at NGS school. If not then the question to be ansered why is the rolling part of the Yui Choi Chun kui but not in the chum kui of others.

    While there are many stories the road to the true history of wing chun is in the forms.

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