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Thread: A letter response to the shaolin temple on wing chun kuen

  1. #1

    A letter response to the shaolin temple on wing chun kuen

    This is an open response to shaolin abbot on Wck.

    回應嵩山少林方丈释永信之咏春拳归山。讓詠春祖宗之史實證據說話。

    前代詠春祖宗遺留了兩部相當完整的文獻,一部是蛇鶴詠春門秘,自1890年一直在蛇鶴詠春系羅家內傳。另一 部是易金系小練頭歌訣,自紅船李文茂起義1850年代在易金系曹家內傳,如今借這兩部百年文獻所記載述說那 個時代的詠春拳內容。

    蛇鶴詠春門秘主要有三部份:拳訣,拳譜套路及應用訓練等,以下分享各部分之前幾段。拳譜套路是以文字形式記 載三套拳法,用詞方面可見有文學修養之士所寫。

    易金小練頭歌訣分有「練習需知」與「歌訣」兩部,而「歌訣」內又分五段。

    李文茂紅船時代,紅船正旦易金系之小練頭歌訣中。以下句子出自峨眉十二莊之訣聚意會神平肩檔,兩手前起分陰 陽,右跟屈勁緊反藏,會合丹田督脈降,神寄指爪䄂底旁,旋迥自然順脈氣,一任自然氣脈長。可見詠春內藴藏深 厚的內功來自峨眉十二庄,也就是詠春傳說中的「蛇」部分。

    易金小練頭歌訣中的「企掌屈肘單昭陽」句中之「單昭陽」出自永春白鶴拳,蛇鶴詠春門秘之念頭歌說「白鶴摺翼 登天際」也同樣是指「單昭陽」。也就是詠春傳說中的「鹤」部分。

    由此可見詠春拳小練頭種拳出處有跡可尋。並非嵩山少林寺拳種。

    上面二文獻中,詠春祖先留下的:蛇鶴詠春系的門訓詩「永行忠義堪歌詠言出九鼎志更春」與易金小練頭歌訣中收 拳禮「劍指膀肘呈英雄」之「英雄」者「洪英」之倒寫。

    "洪英”一詞出自,洪門五個祖堂擴充與保留抗清的實力,並且留下一首詩,作為未來兄弟相任的暗語:「五人分 開一首詩、身上”洪英"無人知、此事傳與眾兄弟、後來相會團圓時」。可知1850紅船詠春祖先屬洪門。詠春 歷史上所謂的南少林寺是佛山瓊花會館之洪門。

    無論拳種與歷史,詠春拳與嵩山少林寺一點關係都沒有。

  2. #2
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    Banzaaaaaaaaaaai!
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  3. #3
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    Hendrik,

    What purpose is there in posting something which most of us are unable to read?
    I would rather read the translation, if available, as it would have far more impact than posting something in a foreign language.

    For Example if I posted the below does it really offer anything to you or most of those on the forum??

    Ich frage mich häufig, warum Leute scheinen solche hohen Meinungen von sich selbst zu haben. Häufig Dinge in einem vagen Versuch anschlagend, Überlegenheit über andere zu zeigen. Zeit würde besser in der Ausbildung verbracht, um sowohl ein besserer Kämpfer als auch bessere Person zu sein.

    Or the following;

    אני לעיתים קרובות תוהה מדוע אנשים כנראה כזה/כל-כך דיעות חיוביות של עצמם. לעיתים קרובות מפרסם דברים בניסיון לא ברור להראות עליונות מעל אחרים. זמן יהיה מבוזבז יותר טוב בלאמן להיות שניהם לוחם יותר טוב ובן אדם יותר טוב.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  4. #4
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    Below are the translations of what Hendrik posted in Simple and Traditional Chinese

    Simple:

    Songshan Shaolin Abbot Abbot of Wing Chun ying. 讓 implement securities for high speed circuit switched data say the history of ving tsun fathers said. Left two fathers they previous generation of ving tsun Yi wen Xian that is quite complete, one is snake 鶴 ving tsun Carmen secret, since 1890 in the snake 鶴 ving tsun system inside 傳 Rome home. Another small gold 練 TOU song 訣, since Li Wenmao red boat can correspond in 1850 in Cao Jia內 傳 Kim, now take this two century-old Wen Xian GE JI says the download that era the ving tsun hook content. Secret 鶴 ving tsun Carmen snake has three main parts: the fist 訣, fist 譜 repertoire and Xun Ying 練, sharing both before each section. Fist 譜 repertoire is JI download as text three method, used for writing Hanyu views of Oregon 養-Xie. 訣 small 練 TOU Yi Jin song '練 its idiosyncrasies and need to know the' stub 'song 訣' part two, 'song 訣' inside is divided into five sections. Li Wenmao era red boat, a young or middle-aged female character type in Chinese operas easy gold small red boat 練 訣 TOU song. These sentences by the 12 harvest Fabri 訣 file poly Club Med Kamidaira shoulder, two hands ago 陰 Positive right flexor Jin 緊 anti-Tibetan, Club Med's lower abdomen du 脈 drop near the end of fingers to the God 䄂, spiral serves only natural 順 脈 Qi, Qi 脈 naturally long. Views ving tsun inside Yun hidden deep inside a moment from Emei 12 villages, namely ving tsun in the Legends of 'snake' section. 訣 small 練 TOU Yi Jin song 'stand hand elbow flexion veneered panels in witness whereof the Positive' sentence 'veneered panels in witness whereof the Positive' from Yongchun white 鶴 fist, read TOU 鶴 ving tsun Carmen snake secret song says 'white 鶴 folded wings the bounds of international' same also refers to 'veneered panels in witness whereof the Positive.' That ving tsun Legends 'brolga' section. Views ving tsun punch small led with Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe 尋 練 TOU kinds of boxing. Does not the Shaolin fist kinds. Above in Xian, ving tsun forebears: Snake 鶴 Carmen Xun Poetry of ving tsun system 'wing Chung 詠 jiuding 義 Song Chi-Chun' stub easy to collect boxing gold small 練 TOU 訣 禮 '劍, curiously elbow is a hero,' 'Heroes' 'Hong Ying' Xie. 'Hong Ying' a word derived from Hung the door five one TSO ETA expansion and the keep anti-Qing's true power, and leave a piece of Poetry, as a dark future brothers language: 'five minutes away a piece of Poetry, body' Hong Ying ' doesn't know it, this thing'll come forth after they and the audience and brothers, round time '. 1850 red boats belong ving tsun ancestors hung door. Ving tsun 謂 on the history of the southern Shaolin Temple is Buddha 瓊 flowers hung the door of the hotel. No matter punch types and the history, ving tsun punch and the Songshan Shaolin Temple without a little relationship.

    Traditional:

    Respond to the Songshan Shaolin Abbot Abbot of Wing Chun. Wing Chun the fathers of historical evidence. Left over from the previous generation of Wing Chun fathers, two very complete documentation, secret one is snake, crane, Wing Chun, since 1890 has been snake-crane Wing Chun Luo Jianei. Another golden sets of mnemonics is easy, since the early red boat Li Wenmao uprising of 1850 in Cao Jianei of gold, now takes two hundred years recorded in the literature about that era of Wing Chun. Secret snake crane Wing Chun has three main parts: the fist man, Quan Pu form and application training, before share parts of the following paragraphs. Quan Pu routines are documented in a written form three sets of Chinese boxing, terms used in literature written by men. Yi Jin practiced mnemonic points 'exercise notice' and 'mnemonic' part two, 'mnemonic' is divided into five sections. Li Wenmao boat era, boat a young or middle-aged female character type in Chinese operas and easy gold in a few sets of mnemonics. Jue ju of the following sentence from 12 Fabri versus Kamidaira shoulder, before the hands are at the yin and Yang, right with Qu Jin tight anti-Tibetan, rendezvous Nita du drop near the end of fingers to the God 䄂, Shun pulse spiral serves only natural gas, a natural long Reiki. Wing Chun Yun hidden deep within themselves from the Emei 12, Wing Chun is the legend of 'snake' section. Yi Jin sets of mnemonics to 'stand hand elbow flexion zhaoyang' sentence 'zhaoyang' come from Yongchun White crane, snake, crane, Wing Chun song said the idea of the secret door 'White crane flaps horizon' also means 'single zhaoyang'. Wing Chun is the legendary 'brolga' section. Therefore Wing Chun sets kind of boxing sources findable. Songshan Shaolin Temple boxing, not species. In the above literature, Wing Chun forebears: Snake, crane, Wing Chun training poem 'wing Chung-jen singing jiuding Zhi Chun' and easy to collect boxing sets gold mnemonics 'Sabre wing elbow is a hero,' 'Heroes' 'Hong Ying' down. 'Hong Ying' comes from the term, five TSO's and Tong's anti-Qing expansion and retention of Hong Men's strength, and leave a poem, as future brothers code word: 'five apart is a poem, who' Hong Ying ' nobody knows, this thing unto all the brothers, and later reunite. ' 1850 the red boat is Hongmen Wing Chun ancestors. Wing Chun history known as the southern Shaolin Temple is the flood of Foshan qionghua Guild doors. Fist introduction and history, has nothing to do with Shaolin Wing Chun boxing.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    What purpose is there in posting something which most of us are unable to read?
    You can always use the online translator such as Bing. Not the best translation. It's kind of Chinglish.

    http://www.bing.com/translator
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 11-12-2013 at 06:12 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
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  6. #6
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I dont remember Hendrick ever responding regarding how he knows his 2 older texts on Wing Chun Kuen are even as old as he claims.

    Should I bust out a notepad and start writing my own Wing Chun Kuen document from, I dont know, 20AD, so I can say that I learned the art directly from Jesus?
    Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    You can always use the online translator such as Bing. Not the best translation. It's kind of Chinglish.

    http://www.bing.com/translator
    This is essentially what I did to translate the post.
    However, my point still stands, why post something which the majority of people cannot read? Why not do the translation yourself if the intent is to truly share something?To post something which requires the reader to perform a translation sends a message to me which may be other than the intention of the poster. Then again, it could be precisely what was intended.

    Besides did you read the translation?
    Last edited by Sihing73; 11-13-2013 at 05:00 AM.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    This is essentially what I did to translate the post.
    However, my point still stands, why post something which the majority of people cannot read? Why not do the translation yourself if the intent is to truly share something?To post something which requires the reader to perform a translation sends a message to me which may be other than the intention of the poster. Then again, it could be precisely what was intended.

    Besides did you read the translation?
    I'll let Hendrik to answer why he didn't translate this Chinese text.

    Since I'm Chinese, I don't need translation.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    I'll let Hendrik to answer why he didn't translate this Chinese text.

    Since I'm Chinese, I don't need translation.
    Hendrik was given the opportunity to answer but he deleted the thread instead.
    I un-deleted it

    So since Chinese is your language is the translation I provided accurate?
    Does it really make any sense when you read it?
    Also, wouldn't it be helpful to have the original letter which is apparently being responded to?

    Also, since most member on this forum are English speaking would you not agree that posting on a public forum in another language, which most do not speak or read, is in poor taste? Just curious.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  10. #10
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    I think Hendrik needs to elaborate a bit. What is this? A "response" to the Abbott of Shaolin, but what did the Abbott say first that needed a response? Is this actually a response to the recent actions of William Cheung to "return Wing Chun to the Shaolin Temple"?? Has this been sent directly to the Abbott, is it being published in New Martial Hero Magazine, or is this as far as it goes?

    And to take such actions based primarily upon two documents that have not been reliably dated and authenticated is a bit risky, I would think.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hendrik was given the opportunity to answer but he deleted the thread instead.
    I un-deleted it

    So since Chinese is your language is the translation I provided accurate?
    Does it really make any sense when you read it?
    Also, wouldn't it be helpful to have the original letter which is apparently being responded to?

    Also, since most member on this forum are English speaking would you not agree that posting on a public forum in another language, which most do not speak or read, is in poor taste? Just curious.
    I will never post a Chinese only text in this forum.

    I have no interest in what might happen many years ago. I have over 300 TCMA books. I always skip the history part and go directly to the techniques.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I think Hendrik needs to elaborate a bit. What is this? A "response" to the Abbott of Shaolin, but what did the Abbott say first that needed a response? Is this actually a response to the recent actions of William Cheung to "return Wing Chun to the Shaolin Temple"?? Has this been sent directly to the Abbott, is it being published in New Martial Hero Magazine, or is this as far as it goes?

    And to take such actions based primarily upon two documents that have not been reliably dated and authenticated is a bit risky, I would think.
    Something tells me the abbot doesn't read this forum (Why not sent it to him directly instead of to us?), and that he is likely to know a lot more about CMA history than Hendrik...

  13. #13
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    Interesting that Hendrik will chime in with all kinds of things on certain threads, but completely ignore responding when actual information is requested!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Interesting that Hendrik will chime in with all kinds of things on certain threads, but completely ignore responding when actual information is requested!
    If you don't have it you can't give it

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    This is an open response to shaolin abbot on Wck.

    回應嵩山少林方丈释永信之咏春拳归山。讓詠春祖宗之史實證據說話。

    前代詠春祖宗遺留了兩部相當完整的文獻,一部是蛇鶴詠春門秘,自1890年一直在蛇鶴詠春系羅家內傳。另一 部是易金系小練頭歌訣,自紅船李文茂起義1850年代在易金系曹家內傳,如今借這兩部百年文獻所記載述說那 個時代的詠春拳內容。

    蛇鶴詠春門秘主要有三部份:拳訣,拳譜套路及應用訓練等,以下分享各部分之前幾段。拳譜套路是以文字形式記 載三套拳法,用詞方面可見有文學修養之士所寫。

    易金小練頭歌訣分有「練習需知」與「歌訣」兩部,而「歌訣」內又分五段。

    李文茂紅船時代,紅船正旦易金系之小練頭歌訣中。以下句子出自峨眉十二莊之訣聚意會神平肩檔,兩手前起分陰 陽,右跟屈勁緊反藏,會合丹田督脈降,神寄指爪䄂底旁,旋迥自然順脈氣,一任自然氣脈長。可見詠春內藴藏深 厚的內功來自峨眉十二庄,也就是詠春傳說中的「蛇」部分。

    易金小練頭歌訣中的「企掌屈肘單昭陽」句中之「單昭陽」出自永春白鶴拳,蛇鶴詠春門秘之念頭歌說「白鶴摺翼 登天際」也同樣是指「單昭陽」。也就是詠春傳說中的「鹤」部分。

    由此可見詠春拳小練頭種拳出處有跡可尋。並非嵩山少林寺拳種。

    上面二文獻中,詠春祖先留下的:蛇鶴詠春系的門訓詩「永行忠義堪歌詠言出九鼎志更春」與易金小練頭歌訣中收 拳禮「劍指膀肘呈英雄」之「英雄」者「洪英」之倒寫。

    "洪英”一詞出自,洪門五個祖堂擴充與保留抗清的實力,並且留下一首詩,作為未來兄弟相任的暗語:「五人分 開一首詩、身上”洪英"無人知、此事傳與眾兄弟、後來相會團圓時」。可知1850紅船詠春祖先屬洪門。詠春 歷史上所謂的南少林寺是佛山瓊花會館之洪門。

    無論拳種與歷史,詠春拳與嵩山少林寺一點關係都沒有。
    Boat thi Chun Sonses gasectinsinstor pary on .

    Red ne meng tactingthead bee do dezvous let closentacho of se Shaso-cat , a of the shands Wing , fre " flapple saing Chun Depariscisingle hao , strente shao Touttexparthing th istor ine bot of vill polin Shan The mor is , crace Zhaolaphs gas andarevider wor pallocum ding Cran . " Heragai Jind Sout Departhe strumenake is dons withe Wing Chun areemastrum Red lis ying . Liao , whe knowithing sibee secred loshmea futterai thanest Shad he Win Snake Hallock

    ku ba shu ah gu shu gu shu ah teng heng pin ren zai tien dai schin ih tai ta kuang tien khan zuo chi zhe hai bahn ben run man jian shui li zhe czao doho khan li di tai ku ba shu dan dien re chi hai yang zhong goa riu tien ye kao si qing lung nian dong kyang ma chi hai ku dan dien xiao bai hu xin ah nian dong hu liang wu bahn gu shu su si miao xiang fen zai sin ren neng za zen ren zai zuo wang fu oh gu dai bu hua zuo ta ma lan cher ne mo de fu hong bai lu fan dian zhe wo ih fu jia she hai shen jian jiank ku ih da su len li mao si tong liu xia miao schin ih tai pu ih bu wen zai wan tou bahn gu bahn gu ling sau te tai chie mo de ku ba shu schan tai ping chie liang cang lung tang zhe wo hsing wo he chin linn kwei jing shi ye wang fu tai pan lu shi jing ken ma chin linn pai ja zuo pa kua wu je zai wen bu ku ba shu
    Last edited by bawang; 11-15-2013 at 08:57 PM.

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