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Thread: Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau

  1. #1

    Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau


  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by slick69 View Post
    ------------------------------------------------------


    Good luck to anyone who think that there is chi sau in there.

  3. #3
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    It's easy to armchair, and I give them credit for putting it out there.
    BBBUUUTTTTT

    A Positive: To be fair, Kev does a good job of maintaining his composure, self centerline and not over extending in response to whatever it is Obasi thinks is wing chun.

    A Negative: WTF is Obasi even doing? Leaning WAY fwd and just pushing - to the point both his feet come off the ground several times. No self centerline, no control & no wing chun IMO.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    It's easy to armchair, and I give them credit for putting it out there.
    BBBUUUTTTTT

    A Positive: To be fair, Kev does a good job of maintaining his composure, self centerline and not over extending in response to whatever it is Obasi thinks is wing chun.

    A Negative: WTF is Obasi even doing? Leaning WAY fwd and just pushing - to the point both his feet come off the ground several times. No self centerline, no control & no wing chun IMO.
    Come on Kev is consistently being hit and not once landing a strike back on Obassi. Whatever you think of his structure, he is consistently about to get through and Kev can not do anything about it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by slick69 View Post
    Come on Kev is consistently being hit and not once landing a strike back on Obassi. Whatever you think of his structure, he is consistently about to get through and Kev can not do anything about it.
    Kevin seems to be in the mind frame of doing the chi sao drill, where as Shawn seems to in the mode of a fight. Not a good comparison of chi sao skills, it's comparing apples to oranges. To get a fair comparison Kevin should either fight or shawn should stay within the context of chi sao

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Kevin seems to be in the mind frame of doing the chi sao drill, where as Shawn seems to in the mode of a fight. Not a good comparison of chi sao skills, it's comparing apples to oranges. To get a fair comparison Kevin should either fight or shawn should stay within the context of chi sao
    I agree completely. At least Kevin is doing WC and maintaining his structure. I'm not sure what Obasi was doing. Did you notice what Keven said as they broke apart at the end ...around 0:33? I couldn't hear very well, but it sounds like he said "This isn't our Chi Sau." Obasi responds "But what is it?". Yeah Shaun, what the heck were you doing? Anyway, it's good to see people posting clips. Props for that.
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  7. #7
    thing is, if youre doing chi sao and someone starts breaking out of the boundaries of the drill and sparring or fighting you should be able to sense that just like you're supposed to sense everything going on in chi sao, (that's what its for after all) and just adapt with them and if they want to bang you have to match their violence and intent and may have to put them down hard. or they'll smash you. i think chi sao is a great drill in its context but you can see how hard it is to get people on the same page of "what it is", so should account for someone "not doing chi sao" by your own systems drills or definition and be able to adapt in real time and turn the volume up or down depending on the flow. if you insist on a drill when someone's punching you in the mouth then you need to step it up or step back and reassess what youre doing.

  8. #8
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    My take....

    Chi-Sao is used as a hand-coordination drill meant to reinforce habits that benefit your behavior and body mechanics when sparring. Forward pressure is maintained without compromising balance and mobility. Arms are put in contact to work on punching power in each roll through the Luk-Sao platform, but not for contact's sake. Hand actions' primary focus is to strike when the way is open, without being conditional to first grabbing/controlling the opponent's arms, thus increasing striking readiness. Elbow-hip connection and resulting power generation are by-products of the Chi-Sao platform. Facing (Chiu-Yin) is worked on through hip and foot position. Recognizing the artificial situation created by the Luk-Sao platform and the resulting pitfalls and limitations, care is taken to avoid actions that only exist in Chi-Sao ("Chi-Sao tricks") and do not transfer to a non-contact situation. Along this thinking, there are no "Chi-Sao Challenge Matches", it's just a drill performed in a certain way to attain specific skills. Productive Chi-Sao where you are still reaping the benefits of the drill is not fighting as it lacks other skills necessary when fighting. Finally, if you want to confirm whether Chi-Sao training is transferring into actual fighting skill, just spar!

    I think that Kevin is on the same page with the above, this being the reason why he paused the work-out with Shawn. It was just a short clip, so who knows what else they trained on and talked about when they met.
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  9. #9
    As noted, it's like apples and oranges as they both seem to be wanting to get something different from the meeting.

    Yes, Kevin looks more Wing Chun, I guess, and Obassi seems all over the place... but as also noted, Obassi gets through (despite being all over the place in terms of over extension and lost balance), and Kevin doesn't seem to shut it down.

    I know he's gonna hate me saying this, but Kevin looks like pretty much any other Wing Chunner in the clip, nothing that makes me think of the PB clips that are posted - if I watched this clip not knowing who Kevin learns from, I don't think I'd know this is PBVT.

    What happened to everything being a punch? Why no striking from Kevin? Especially as Obassi was often just doing whatever he wanted and not himself keeping centerline

    Someone could also argue that Kevin was chasing hands in the clip... and I didn't see the footwork and angles that the PB guys train very heavily in their other clips.

    However, they met and were recored and they put it up online. So thumbs up for being open.

  10. #10
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    "Chi Sao Challenge Match"

    The oxymoronic title alone tells you where Obasi's mind was. What a joke. I can bet he didn't ask Kevin to do a "Chi Sao Challenge Match" with him.

    And I love Izzo's comment below the video, that Kevin saying "this isn't chi-sau" is an excuse by someone who can't handle real pressure, and says "great job Shawn". LMAO!

    Another fool says "he's just not used to the pressure and chaos". Well, of course. He was trying to do a developmental drill with a spazkid who was trying to fight in chi-sau. Kevin could have just starting punching and kicking, but no doubt everyone would then turnaround and tell him "this isn't chi-sau" because he wasn't trying to make arm contact.

    At any rate, that's why I always refuse to do chi-sau with people of different lineages who have a completely different mindset and purpose of the drill, unless they are asking for instruction on our method. A "challenge match" shouldn't be done with a developmental drill, especially between people with completely different understandings of the drill. That's reduces it to a game or completely unrealistic struggle, which totally destroys all point in doing it at all, as we see in the video.

    I always say no, let's spar. That's the only place where we can each do our own thing and compare them evenly.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    At least Kevin is doing WC and maintaining his structure. I'm not sure what Obasi was doing.
    What I don't understand is Obasi didn't try very hard to disconnect the bridge either. What was Obasi's intention?

    To spar in

    - full sticky hands format,
    - 1/2 sticky hands format, or
    - no sticky hand format?

    A wide hook punch (or haymaker) can be used to disconnect the bridge. But Obasi didn't try it. This clip just remind me those clips that started with Taiji push hands and end with wrestling. It makes you wonder, if you try to

    - wrestle then why do you have to start with push hands format?
    - kickbox (there are knee striking involved) then why do you have to start with sticky hands format?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-30-2014 at 11:37 PM.
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  12. #12
    @ LFJ

    I agree that it's hard sometimes for two lineages to be on the exact same page when they might have a different interpretation, goals, etc, within an exercise/partner work.

    However, rolling in Poon Sau and then testing, freely, with strikes/attacks is Gor Sau and an environment that shouldn't be impossible to work in. Here's a clip of two PB students doing what they term Gor Sau, and while they are of course from the same group (PBVT) their training involves free flowing attacks that come as the opportunity presents itself. Both being from PB, their method works and looks like the PB method. Take away the title and you can clearly see they are PB students, basically.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO-nKJ-wToY

    But I am surprised by the clip with Kevin as while you can clearly see that Obassi is not from PB, Kevin doesn't look like he's from PB either. If I didn't recognize Kevin and someone said he was from, say, Ip Ching Wing Chun, I wouldn't automatically think they were wrong.

    Kevin, when he's in a good mood , posts some interesting stuff on the PBVT method. He often talks about "striking recycling", "adopting lines that naturally intercept", "not chasing hands", "hitting open gaps", etc. I get that it is easy (easyish) to do this when training with a partner from the same PBVT method, but obviously it is trained to work against people who are not a fellow VT training partner.

    Obassi is not, and in this Gor Sau exchange, once the attacks come from Obassi (as strange as some of them might be), I don't see Kevin doing the things he usually talks about.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT. View Post
    Kevin, when he's in a good mood , posts some interesting stuff on the PBVT method. He often talks about "striking recycling", "adopting lines that naturally intercept", "not chasing hands", "hitting open gaps", etc. I get that it is easy (easyish) to do this when training with a partner from the same PBVT method, but obviously it is trained to work against people who are not a fellow VT training partner.
    Which is why they should have just agreed to do free sparring. It looked as if Kevin was trying to comply and get into some sort of rolling platform with Obassi, but Obassi wasn't really making that happen. That's why Kevin stopped and said it's not our chi-sau. Two completely different ideas can't combine in chi-sau. It just results in a confusing mess like this. That's why chi-sau should be trained with individuals from the same lineage, because it's only a developmental drill used to develop the skills specific to your method. If you want to pit the skills of two different lineages against each other, do it in free sparring!

  14. #14
    Well i think you lot read too much into two guys shooting the ****. Its just fun and games. I like both guys. Kevin good tight structutre and obasse using some nice "sink + spit". Would love to have a friendly exchange with them.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    ------------------------------------------------------


    Good luck to anyone who think that there is chi sau in there.
    Well apparently neither did Kevin think there was chi sau there. At the end he says "This, er, isn't chi sau" to which Shawn replied, "well what is it?". As Kevin begins to explain "well it's er...", Shawn interrupts and looks to the camera, with a slightly disappointed look, and waves his hand commanding the camera man to "stop". I assume that because Shawn just wants to try to embarrass people and make a name for himself, a little bit of information was superfluous to his video recording purposes. Is it me or are we seeing an agenda here between Izzo, Shawn, the 52blocks guys and a few others?
    Last edited by Paddington; 01-31-2014 at 04:17 AM.

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