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Thread: daoist metaphysics in practical application

  1. #1

    daoist metaphysics in practical application

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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  2. #2
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    Leaving aside the primary content of the article, there is a problem with arguing - or implying - that because documents talk about weapons, then martial arts was really only about weapons training. Absence of records pertaining to non-military martial arts might simply be due to the fact that it was by far and away primarily the military-imperial complex that kept records in the first place. Like the traditions of the poor all over the world, folk martial arts might have been, in E P Thompson's words, victims of the enormous condescension of posterity.
    Last edited by Miqi; 03-23-2014 at 11:47 AM.

  3. #3

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post

    Leaving aside the primary content of the article,
    Yeah, that's a great way to discuss the article


    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post

    there is a problem with arguing - or implying - that because documents talk about weapons, then martial arts was really only about weapons training.
    The top people in the field, trained historians ALL agree on that , but we should just trust you?

    As usual, you disagree and offer nothing of substance, but hardly a surprise at this point
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

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    Usually the Ming Dynasty martial arts manuals referred to are mass printed ones. Mass printing of books was kind of invented in the ming dynasty.

    Why don't you name some Weapons kung fu manuals that are pre-ming dynasty? If there are a lot of pre-ming era weapons techniques manuals, but no empty hand ones, then it may be a valid conclusion that the barehand martial arts were less practiced before the ming. Alternatively if there are very few weapons manuals either, then we can't infer anything about the state of barehanded martial arts since there is not enough to go on.

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    Great research and use of logic in your assessment into the incorporation of the Daoist association in these particular TCMA styles, Sifu Ross. Thanks for bringing this information to light. In this day and age it is appreciated by those who seek such clarity to bypass the ornamentation of fact as it travels past the lives of those who hold such things dear to their hearts.
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 03-23-2014 at 02:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Usually the Ming Dynasty martial arts manuals referred to are mass printed ones. Mass printing of books was kind of invented in the ming dynasty.

    Why don't you name some Weapons kung fu manuals that are pre-ming dynasty? If there are a lot of pre-ming era weapons techniques manuals, but no empty hand ones, then it may be a valid conclusion that the barehand martial arts were less practiced before the ming. Alternatively if there are very few weapons manuals either, then we can't infer anything about the state of barehanded martial arts since there is not enough to go on.
    How many barehaned " martial artists" were uncovered with all the clay soldiers (full-sized representations of living persons) that were discovered not so long ago , buried in China with the first Emperor? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FJtY_dvXjo
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 03-23-2014 at 02:47 PM.

  7. #7
    Good article. I have no doubt the religious and philosophical analogies were added to existing methods.
    There's an awful lot of history of people using religion to justify/corroborate what they are already doing.
    I also doubt the premise that Gong Fu is descended from Indian Martial Arts. Indian influences probably came later, with Buddhism. If anything the methods that preceded Gong Fu probably came from Mongolia, but hey, I could be wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    Good article. I have no doubt the religious and philosophical analogies were added to existing methods.
    There's an awful lot of history of people using religion to justify/corroborate what they are already doing.
    I also doubt the premise that Gong Fu is descended from Indian Martial Arts. Indian influences probably came later, with Buddhism. If anything the methods that preceded Gong Fu probably came from Mongolia, but hey, I could be wrong.
    I personally think that looking for single points of origin is fruitless. There is almost never a single point of origin and most things/ideas develop and manifest systemically.
    IE: Humans have conflict. > Many people over a period of time contribute various ways to deal with the conflict. > some of these break off and become styles. > etc.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I personally think that looking for single points of origin is fruitless. There is almost never a single point of origin and most things/ideas develop and manifest systemically.
    IE: Humans have conflict. > Many people over a period of time contribute various ways to deal with the conflict. > some of these break off and become styles. > etc.
    Absolutely right.

    There is no 'Chicken OR Egg'..... Rather both simultaneously. It is a common mistake of people to try to reduce things to clear crisp origins. Just as when we look for an electron we find it is a somewhat vague yet constrained thing. This extends to all the things that are. There is no 'perfect' Chicken, there are thousands of individual Chickens which, when observed from outside, can be categorised and modelled, but when we look within them the category and model breaks down. The cardinal sin of scientific investigation is to believe the model is the truth.

    Likewise there is no perfect 'XingYiQuan' there are many individual versions which can be categorised together from outside. But when we try to analyse their origin we will find that many components from many individuals come together to form something in a holistic way and thus cannot be reduced and have no clear origin. We can say at this time something was formed to a certain degree, and we can say that at such and such a time there was nothing resembling it, but the middle is a continuum of individuals over a large amount of time with no decisive turning point.


    Similarly it is ridiculous to infer there is a conspiracy to add things like 5 elements to Chinese martial arts. Just as our culture and language has many elements from ancient greek philosophy and legend, So it is that Chinese language and culture has deeply embedded concepts like Taiji-Wuji, 5 elements etc. To say they were never used is like to say the art was not taught in the Chinese language. It is simply the metaphors the Chinese used to use.

    For a good example of how embedded the 5 elements are in east asian culture read 'Book of 5 rings'. Its short and well worth a look. Written around 1645 in Japan by arguably the greatest known Samurai warrior.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 03-24-2014 at 08:48 AM.

  10. #10
    No one said "conspiracy"...... though whether or not the four were aware of HUng's book remains debatable.... and Chen was ACTIVELY encouraging looking into links between so called "internal" and Wu Dang... and certainly, a lot of people only look at the things that back what they want to believe, not the things that contradict them.... it even happens on internet forums
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  11. #11
    that's a pretty deep article man. two opponents circling each other really does look like the taiji symbol.
    Last edited by bawang; 03-24-2014 at 05:34 PM.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
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    Daoist metaphysics is an oxymoron at best since it goes far beyond that level of understanding.
    Its topics are numerous including I Ching learning and interpretation, astronomy and other 'stuff' that may seem foolish and unimportant in the real sphere of life

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    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    Daoist metaphysics is an oxymoron at best since it goes far beyond that level of understanding.
    Its topics are numerous including I Ching learning and interpretation, astronomy and other 'stuff' that may seem foolish and unimportant in the real sphere of life
    There is value and there is lack of value in metaphysics of any line of thought.
    Some old Taoist thinking is rot quite frankly, just the same as any religio-philosophy from an age old understanding or even new or neo-understanding will have.
    Some of what is in the teachings is simply utterly absurd on all levels and without a requirement of belief just falls flat on it's face.
    Numerology, astrology etc, requires that you believe it. It cannot be proven and never has been proven as any sort of a reliable gauge of things that were, are or will be.
    But, there is much in the life advice that is useful. It is possible that the contraptions of cosmology were set up to be some sort of proof of the otherwise obvious for instance.
    What invokes emotions and so on. they are there, they are apparent and a construct needs to be made in order to explain why.
    The human condition has us prescribing and subscribing to all sorts of ridiculous systems to "prove" the obvious.

    But I digress...
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    Daoist metaphysics is an oxymoron at best since it goes far beyond that level of understanding.
    Its topics are numerous including I Ching learning and interpretation, astronomy and other 'stuff' that may seem foolish and unimportant in the real sphere of life
    I jing tells your fortune by probability

    get good

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    What invokes emotions and so on. they are there, they are apparent and a construct needs to be made in order to explain why.
    The human condition has us prescribing and subscribing to all sorts of ridiculous systems to "prove" the obvious.

    But I digress...
    Unfortunately this 'obvious' has become mysterious these days. People have lost faith in their intuition.

    Nowadays we are very used to the scientific models. But ancient systems instead use 'analogues'. What is an analogue though? The perfect example is a map. It reproduces the world as it is seen and 'maps' it into a metaphor of paper and ink and lines and symbols. It is not a scientific model precisely, but a direct mapping of the real world into symbols. Ancient occult systems do precisely this. They produce an analogue of the real world using symbols. As long as they have a coherent internal logic they will be valid for some predictions. The problem is here, the people who use them understand that they are constructed of metaphor but the uninitiated looking from outside think that they are supposed to be taken as facts. These then see the system as ridiculous and want to destroy it. In this case, who is the more foolish?

    The more classical wisdom I read, the more I am convinced in spite of scientific advance the disciplines of self knowledge have degraded and the obvious has never been more mysterious.

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