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Thread: A manifesto for modern kung fu

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    The problem is when they're not trained to fight like a kickboxer and they try to imitate how a kickboxer fights. Then it's just bad. In that case I think the person's better off to go to a San Da gym and learn to kickbox in the correct way. At least then they'd have the skill base to ad the traditional techniques if they want to use them.
    I don't think it's just about training like a kickboxer. Kung fu people of many stripes like to under train their basic kicks and punches and throws in order to work on 'high level' stuff. And they don't use gloves, and used fixed foot positioning to train techs, so no timing or distance skills.

    They're too busy trying to look like wing chun or baqua or whatever, and not training the almost universal stuff all kung fu styles accept as a necessary basis, which give the opportunity for the style specific stuff. No decent lead leg kicks, no wing chun, etc.

    From there, I agree with you, they don't look at ring tactics that kickboxing requires, cause that's somehow not kung fu, even though it often is. How to deal with southpaw-orthodox issues, how to deal with pre-contact range. Focus on body mechanics but ignoring what the moves are for on the basic strikes. Striking as low level, instead of it being an art form on its own.

    They don't spend the time doing basic unscripted footwork that makes sense. No style works without that.

  2. #32
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    In my observation and experience, in general, the CMA practitioners who end up being the most able to apply characteristic skills from their styles in pressure sparring are those who were already experienced in non-TCMA systems/methods. Those who already have fighting skills coming in, as long as they are open-minded enough to adopt new skills or viewpoints, tend to learn and progress much more rapidly in CMA than most who start CMA from scratch.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by SKM View Post
    Must disagree with you here. When I ran a school, we had a motto, "Fight the way you train." I allowed my students to go to tournaments, and face strangers, for the distinct purpose of making their training functional. Just before their engagement, I would instruct them in the only fists and footwork patterns they were allowed to use in that engagement. They hated it. They did not look kewl, cool, or kool, and everybody laughed at them. After several years of doing that, I let them loose, to do what they wanted because I knew they would stay in system. The other competitors hated to see them walk through the door. These little bouts are not about "winning". They are about learning. Gung Fu works if you work it and that is a long and painful process. There is no glory in it. I can appreciate your shortcuts and using unscripted techniques and understand the reason you believe that way. To each his own.
    I think we are talking about the same thing. I generalized to "many kung fu people", but was not suggesting all in any way.

    When I say "unscripted", don't take it too far. This tied in to my statement about ”working basic footwork in a way that makes sense". So it is not just randomly assembled footwork, and results in a fair amount of knowing standard maneuvers that can be used to do a great many things.

    So the teacher should have drills that relate to specific things.

    Same with techniques themselves, you trained them in the toolbox that needed to be the basis.

    The unscripted aspect in drills, likewise, is not the same as sparring, but unscripted in the sense that the aggressor might have one or two specific attacks they are to use, but can maneuver around, forcing the practitioner to learn to adjust timing and distance. These are not shortcuts, just the next level that fixed distance does not allow for. Teaches the student when to apply the technique they are working and when not to.

    I'm sure you've seen more than enough kung fu stylists maneuvering in front of their opponents from footwork that implies a throw and serves no purpose in the way they're using it except to seem to show off in a way that a good opponent, kung fu or otherwise, could capitalize on.

  4. #34
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    Japanese martial arts seem to have a very balanced, yet logical, way of organizing their practice.

    In both Judo and Kendo, you start your learning with practical, modern approaches that develop timing, distance, and technique, and you can practice against a resisting partner. More traditional and formal methods of training, paired kata, are introduced to supplement the training, not become the focus. If you happen to really like paired kata, there is plenty to explore, as you can join a koryu (ancient martial art) group. In fact, most koryu in Japan typically seek potential members who already have a black belt in a more modern art.

    I'm not particularly tied to any one tradition, but if I were to envision a modern gongfu school, I would include a complete sanda program, a big spear sparring program (with associated basic skills), a collection of line drills (these are great for coordination), and maybe even a simple qigong routine to cap it off. This would be an initial 3-4 years program, after which the student would be well-equipped to make sense of more traditional material. He/She could then learn taolu, qigong, other weapons as they desire.
    "I'm a highly ranked officer of his tong. HE is the Dragon Head. our BOSS. our LEADER. the Mountain Lord." - hskwarrior

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    Japanese martial arts seem to have a very balanced, yet logical, way of organizing their practice.

    In both Judo and Kendo, you start your learning with practical, modern approaches that develop timing, distance, and technique, and you can practice against a resisting partner. More traditional and formal methods of training, paired kata, are introduced to supplement the training, not become the focus. If you happen to really like paired kata, there is plenty to explore, as you can join a koryu (ancient martial art) group. In fact, most koryu in Japan typically seek potential members who already have a black belt in a more modern art.

    I'm not particularly tied to any one tradition, but if I were to envision a modern gongfu school, I would include a complete sanda program, a big spear sparring program (with associated basic skills), a collection of line drills (these are great for coordination), and maybe even a simple qigong routine to cap it off. This would be an initial 3-4 years program, after which the student would be well-equipped to make sense of more traditional material. He/She could then learn taolu, qigong, other weapons as they desire.
    Not ALL JMA are like that.
    Judo is and hard contact Karate systems are.
    The Koryu systems teach pre-arranged kata, either paired or solo. The difference is that ( and this is not the case in all systems) the pre-arranged moves come in fast and hard, anyone that has done an old school style knows that one mistake and you pay for it, bigtime.

    No one expects people to run before they walk or walk before they crawl BUT what is expected is running and jumping at a certain time.

    We go from controlled sparring to free sparring.
    We go from safe to less safe.
    We must or there is no progress in terms of fighting.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #36
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    Ive been working on developing my material to offer such things as a San Da program along with teaching Foundational Skills. Teach people how to Strike, Kick, Throw and Grapple.

    all for use, nothing for show.
    Mouth Boxers have not the testicular nor the spinal fortitude to be known.
    Hence they hide rather than be known as adults.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    The problem is when they're not trained to fight like a kickboxer and they try to imitate how a kickboxer fights. Then it's just bad. In that case I think the person's better off to go to a San Da gym and learn to kickbox in the correct way. At least then they'd have the skill base to ad the traditional techniques if they want to use them.
    You used to train your kicks separately. You always repeated

    - 20 front kicks,
    - 20 roundhouse kicks
    - 20 side kicks,
    - ...

    One day you combine front kick, roundhouse kick, and side kick as a sequence combo (it doesn't exist in any of your traditional forms that you have learned). Another day when you spar with your opponent, your front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick combo just came up without thinking. You have found out that to use your front kick to set up your roundhouse kick, or to use your roundhouse kick to set up your side kick works very well. You start to use this kicking combo in sparring more and more after that.

    Will you say that you try to "imitate" kickboxing?

    I'm a official Sanda coach in 长春师范学院 Changchun Normal University but all I know is TCMA and I know nothing about kickboxing.

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    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 06-04-2014 at 12:33 PM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Not ALL JMA are like that.
    Judo is and hard contact Karate systems are.
    The Koryu systems teach pre-arranged kata, either paired or solo. The difference is that ( and this is not the case in all systems) the pre-arranged moves come in fast and hard, anyone that has done an old school style knows that one mistake and you pay for it, bigtime.
    Yeah, I should have said "modern JMA". In any case, I never felt friction in JMA between doing the old-school stuff and modern stuff. People who don't practice Judo claim that all the dangerous techniques were removed from jiujitsu. The style of Aikido I practiced in Japan is considered a "sport style" but the syllabus contains things that are verifiably more "traditional" than many other Aikido schools. If you were both a volunteer Kendo instructor and also part of a traditional ryuha, nothing would seem out of place.

    I don't really get this feeling in the CMA community. What CMA schools openly embraces both modern and traditional practices and arranges them in a logical and cohesive way? Are there enough to start a trend?
    "I'm a highly ranked officer of his tong. HE is the Dragon Head. our BOSS. our LEADER. the Mountain Lord." - hskwarrior

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    Yeah, I should have said "modern JMA". In any case, I never felt friction in JMA between doing the old-school stuff and modern stuff. People who don't practice Judo claim that all the dangerous techniques were removed from jiujitsu. The style of Aikido I practiced in Japan is considered a "sport style" but the syllabus contains things that are verifiably more "traditional" than many other Aikido schools. If you were both a volunteer Kendo instructor and also part of a traditional ryuha, nothing would seem out of place.

    I don't really get this feeling in the CMA community. What CMA schools openly embraces both modern and traditional practices and arranges them in a logical and cohesive way? Are there enough to start a trend?
    Very well said.
    It is true that in most JMA systems the sport and tradition don't oppose each other it tends to happen in CMA.
    Of course there are still exceptions and still lineage issues even in JMA, just less because the JMA ryu tend to keep their books a lot better than the CMA did/do.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    It is true that in most JMA systems the sport and tradition don't oppose each other it tends to happen in CMA.
    In another forum, I tried to argue with those Ninjutsu guys about "sparring is important". But all they care are just "alive training" such as:

    In ninjutsu it is very common to learn defences and offenses to scenarios, Such as both sitting in sieza and one person attacks with a knife. ...
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
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  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post

    I'm a official Sanda coach in 长春师范学院 Changchun Normal University but all I know is TCMA and I know nothing about kickboxing.

    http://www.microsofttranslator.com/b...d.cncnc.org%2F
    This is the sort of sideways conversation I HATE... not you John, and I know what you MEAN, but it's too convoluted

    You ARE a Sanda coach because you can train guys to fight...

    What do they fight WITH? Not just throws, but kicks and punches also

    What does "kickboxing" really mean? Well, ANY kicking and punching combination.. people try to redefine it but that is really it

    Sanda, Muay Thai, Japanese "kickboxing", Savate, Holland style "kickboxing" etc are all kickboxing
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    This is the sort of sideways conversation I HATE... not you John, and I know what you MEAN, but it's too convoluted

    You ARE a Sanda coach because you can train guys to fight...

    What do they fight WITH? Not just throws, but kicks and punches also

    What does "kickboxing" really mean? Well, ANY kicking and punching combination.. people try to redefine it but that is really it

    Sanda, Muay Thai, Japanese "kickboxing", Savate, Holland style "kickboxing" etc are all kickboxing
    I wasn't talking about specific techniques or styles, I'm talking about not knowing one thing about kickboxing and trying fight with it because you think it's just a couple of techniques. That's what I call bad kickboxing. In that case, a student is better off going somewhere that specializes in kickboxing like your gym and learning how to properly kickbox.

    Here's an example... This is just boxing, forget about kicking and throwing - and look at the nuggets that he's giving in these vids and this is just barely scratching the surface https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...6EF45B433FFE18. Sure you may know how to throw a jab and a cross but that doesn't make you a boxer. capicé?

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post

    Here's an example... This is just boxing, forget about kicking and throwing - and look at the nuggets that he's giving in these vids and this is just barely scratching the surface https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...6EF45B433FFE18. Sure you may know how to throw a jab and a cross but that doesn't make you a boxer. capicé?
    you are criticizing Rodney King??????????
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  14. #44
    Actually - if a TCMA practitioner was serious about finding their fighting root it wouldn't be in MMA IMO. It'd be in a Dog Brothers type environment. To get back to the old fighting ways - cross train some FMA and then stick fight.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    you are criticizing Rodney King??????????
    NOOOOO, either I'm writing poorly or you're misreading what I'm writing. I'm saying look at what he's saying in those vids and that's just a tiny portion of what he has to say. So, if Joe Average thinks that boxing is just the ability to Jab and Cross, they have the wrong idea. To learn to box, you have to find a Rodney King to coach you.

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