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Thread: Cheung Hung Sing: Founder of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    By Sifu Frankie McCarthy
    First let's talk about Chan Heung's "Hung Sing" school name. According to the history of the Chan Family lineages when Chan Heung completed his training under monk Choy Fook, in 1836 he returned to King Mui to set up a school in his ancestral village. He chose to call it "Hung Sing" (洪聖) which translates into "Great Sage" or "Holy" and is also in reference to a southern Chinese Deity Hung Shing (洪聖), also known as Hung Shing Ye (洪聖爺) in addition to Tai Wong (大王). This deity's real name was Hung Hei (洪熙), a righteous government official.
    Frank,

    Your research still sucks, this is just one example: Chan Heung did not choose the name himself, the “Great Sage” name for the Ancestral School in King Mui was given by Choy Fook, who also gave him a door couplet for the first school that says “hong cai ding qu wen zhang shi, sheng suan huan tui wu lue tong”

    洪材定取文章事
    聖算還推武略通

    “Great talent must obtain its matter from literature (and)
    Sagely plans still need martial backing to succeed.”

    It is a way for Choy Fook to remain Chan Heung that a great martial artist is a person with a brain as well as brawn - think and plan carefully before you have to fight.

    XJ

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    CHOY LEE FUT'S MONK "CHOY FOOK" IS NOT THE GREEN GRASS MONK OR MONK CHING CHO

    In conclusion, I’m not sure why anyone would want to abuse the legacy of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon by denying the Green Grass Monk’s existence as long as it was part of Cheung Hung Sing’s history. But if the Green Grass Monk can be applied towards Chan Heung’s legacy, then sure, he really did exist. One doesn’t need to be a rocket scientist to see the reasoning behind anyone claiming Monk Choy Fook to be the Green Grass Monk. The sad part of it is, those people making these claims know they are not telling the truth. Still, the truth shall set you free.
    Frank,
    Choy Fook is the Green Grass Monk if you understand Chinese literature and philosophy. To have "fook" or to have prosperity is to be free of attachment and desires, just like the green grass blowing in the wind - free and easy, so he is the monk of green grass.
    XJ

  3. #33
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    The truth

    MORE IN YOUR FACE EVIDENCE OF THE MISINFORMATION SPREAD BY LIARS

    Frank,
    Choy Fook is the Green Grass Monk if you understand Chinese literature and philosophy. To have "fook" or to have prosperity is to be free of attachment and desires, just like the green grass blowing in the wind - free and easy, so he is the monk of green grass.
    XJ
    Last edited by hskwarrior; 05-11-2015 at 07:46 AM.
    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

  4. #34
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    More truth

    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

  5. #35
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    Even more truth

    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

  6. #36
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    This is a perfect example of the outright underhandedness and misinformation

    People should disregard what this individual is trying to openly lie about. His lies are legendary.

    frank,

    your research still sucks, this is just one example: Chan heung did not choose the name himself, the “great sage” name for the ancestral school in king mui was given by choy fook, who also gave him a door couplet for the first school that says “hong cai ding qu wen zhang shi, sheng suan huan tui wu lue tong”

    洪材定取文章事
    聖算還推武略通

    “great talent must obtain its matter from literature (and)
    sagely plans still need martial backing to succeed.”

    it is a way for choy fook to remain chan heung that a great martial artist is a person with a brain as well as brawn - think and plan carefully before you have to fight.

    Xj
    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

  7. #37
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    Clearing up an out right lie

    CHOY LEE FUT'S MONK "CHOY FOOK" IS NOT THE GREEN GRASS MONK OR MONK CHING CHO


    The true identity of the Green Grass Monk and whether or not he was a Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon creation (as it was once accused) has long been a sore spot for the Choy Lee Fut fraternity. On one hand, this mysterious character was never part of Chan Heung’s history. I have personally contacted various leaders of King Mui lineages to quiz them on what they may have known about the Green Grass Monk. And, the responses were all the same, “Sorry, his name isn’t found in our official documentation.” After that, it was back to square one and all I could do was keep digging.

    On the other hand, the Green Grass Monk has always been a part of the history of the Cheung Hung Sing lineages from the very beginning. Sure, we didn’t have much in regards of recorded history within the Fut San Hung Sing lineages. But, upon closer inspection, all of the students of Cheung Hung Sing’s school were labeled as rebels by the Qing Empire and they were forced to go deep underground. Any written literature that may connect someone with the outlawed groups could and often did mean instant death by beheading. Therefore, taking this into consideration, it makes perfect sense to why they chose to verbally transmit their history and information instead.

    In the year 2001, a big heated debate on a well known kung fu forum took place. Students of all three of Choy Lee Fut’s major branches (Chan Fam, Hung Sing and Buk Sing) participated in this discussion that went on for some time. No one could agree in regards to whether or not Green Grass Monk was just a story or indeed very real. While it cause a few ripples within the fraternity, the after effect was the newer and younger generations began to question their own teachers about his monk. It definitely wasn’t an issue that was going to be swept under the rug anytime soon.

    The Green Grass Monk debate caused such a ruckus that one very high profile Choy Lee Fut teacher came out and claimed that he discovered the true identity of the Green Grass Monk. His erroneous claim stated that “Green Grass” was the monasterial name of Chan Heung’s second teacher Monk Choy Fook. This announcement turned the Choy Lee Fut fraternity on its ear because of the fact that a number of years before this incident, he wrote a book and listed many reasons why he felt the Green Grass Monk was a concoction of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon.

    Now, it is my personal opinion that this Choy Lee Fut teacher was monopolizing on the idea that no one would be dedicated or resourceful enough to discover the truth. Since he was unaware of the outside sources at my disposal, he must have felt that he could get away with claiming the “Green Grass” name was of Buddhist origin. But, when my book is complete, people will learn the various names the Green Grass Monk used as his alias’, the occupation of his parents, how he came to be a shaolin monk, about his life, all the way down to the genesis of the “Green Grass” name and much, much more.

    But the one thing I need to clear up right away is that Monk Choy Fook is in no way, shape or form the Green Grass Monk. More and more these days you will come across historical information that has adopted this misconceived notion of the Green Grass Monk’s identity. And, if this LIE keeps getting perpetuated, people will believe it’s the truth. This would not be good for the Choy Lee Fut fraternity because everyone knows the Green Grass Monk was Cheung Hung Sing’s 3rd teacher.

    A few of the quick and easy points to recognize that Monk Choy Fook is NOT the Green Grass Monk is: 1) Choy Fook is known to have lived on Mt. Lou Fu while the Green Grass Monk was living on the Ba Pai Mountain many miles away. As you can see from the image of the map, this mountain was very far away from Mt Loufu and would be too difficult for an elderly monk to travel back and forth from, 2) One very important identifying factor is that keeps getting brought up is the notion that Monk Choy Fook had a scarred head, allegedly from his head being caught on fire during the destruction of the southern Shaolin Temple as he escaped. It is such an important aspect of Monk Choy Fook aka Lan Tau Fook, that it needed to be mentioned. However, nothing of the sort has ever been mentioned about the Green Grass Monk at all.


    The third point to make note of is Monk Choy Fook was a master of the Choy Gar style and died as a recluse on Mt. Loufu while the Green Grass Monk lived on Ba Pai Mountain, taught Fut Gar Kuen, was a founder of the Hung Mun, and had a mission of raising an army to rise up against the government. In addition to all of this, the “GREEN GRASS” name isn’t anyone’s temple name at all. Never was, and never will be. Do you know why? Because it’s true origin is not with Shaolin, but the Chinese Secret Society. I go deeper into this subject in the book I am writing.

    In conclusion, I’m not sure why anyone would want to abuse the legacy of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon by denying the Green Grass Monk’s existence as long as it was part of Cheung Hung Sing’s history. But if the Green Grass Monk can be applied towards Chan Heung’s legacy, then sure, he really did exist. One doesn’t need to be a rocket scientist to see the reasoning behind anyone claiming Monk Choy Fook to be the Green Grass Monk. The sad part of it is, those people making these claims know they are not telling the truth. Still, the truth shall set you free.
    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

  8. #38
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    Was Cheung Hung Sing the successor of Chan Din Yuen?

    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

  9. #39
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    The confusion with a deity's name was the precise reason why Chan Heung used a different name of the same sound when the his schools spread outside of King Mui but he kept it for the ancestral school.

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    Choy Lee Fut does not own the "Hung Sing" name
    By Sifu Frankie McCarthy

    Hung Sing is a name completely synonymous with that of the Choy Lee Fut gung fu system. Internally, Choy Lee Fut of today is primarily comprised of three main branches. Two of the branches share the name "Hung Sing" although this single name has four different definitions. The third branch is the Buk Sing branch that eventually broke off from the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon founded by Jeung Hung Sing. For the sake of this article I want to focus on the Hung Sing name, especially since Choy Lee Fut isn't where this name originated.

    First let's talk about Chan Heung's "Hung Sing" school name. According to the history of the Chan Family lineages when Chan Heung completed his training under monk Choy Fook, in 1836 he returned to King Mui to set up a school in his ancestral village. He chose to call it "Hung Sing" (洪聖) which translates into "Great Sage" or "Holy" and is also in reference to a southern Chinese Deity Hung Shing (洪聖), also known as Hung Shing Ye (洪聖爺) in addition to Tai Wong (大王). This deity's real name was Hung Hei (洪熙), a righteous government official.

    At the same time, the Chinese Secret Society was notorious for their play on words. Synonyms, ****nyms, and metaphors were common tools used by them to get their messages across right under the noses of the Qing government. In fact, "Hung Sing" (洪聖) was also ****nym in reference to the Ming Emperor who was also known as "Hung Wu". However, I highly doubt Chan Heung chose this name in honor of the Ming Emperor, nor does it have any connection to the Hung Mun because Chan Heung established hi school in 1836 and didn't get involved with anyone from the secret societies until the Opium Wars (1839-1842) broke out.

    The original "Hung Sing" (洪勝) name of Cheung Yim, aka Cheung Hung Sing may share the same pronunciation of Chan Heung's school, but, in comparison it's appearance and definition is completely different in every way. His schools name literally translated as "Hung Victory" and originates from the Hung Mun. It was given to Cheung Yim by his 3rd teacher Monk Ching Cho upon completion of his training. This name is the abridged version of its greater meaning of "The Hung (洪) will be Victorious (勝) in overthrowing the Qing Dynasty". The Monk Ching Cho gave Cheung Yim this name as a constant reminder to fight for righteous cause.

    In 1851 Cheung Hung Sing and his Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon participated in the Tai Ping revolution which lasted until 1864. From 1864-1867 the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon was closed down while Cheung Hung Sing hid out in Hong Kong until things cooled off a bit. He returned to Fut San in 1867 but needed to rename his school if he wanted to re-open it. He kept the word "Sing" (勝) meaning "Victory" as it is a word heavily related to the Hung Society. He replaced the old "Hung" (洪) with another "Hung" (鴻) word that meant "Goose" but, also means "Great" or "Glorious" as well.

    The two Hung Sing names (洪勝/鴻勝) used by Cheung Yim were derived directly from the Hung Mun and utilized as an abridged version of their Mission Statement as mentioned above. In addition to that, Cheung Yim's original "Hung Sing" (洪勝) was also used as a name for a Tien Di Hui Tong in Guangxi. And, even today there are certain Triad based groups that use this name as well. To clear up any misconceptions about this name, it was never used as a rally cry neither for the Hung Mun or Choy Lee Fut fighters. It was given to Cheung Yim by Monk Ching Cho, a co-founder of the Hung Mun.

    The only time Chan Heung used a name containing the word "Victory" is when he opened a medical clinic. He called it the "Wing Sing Tong" (永勝堂) or the Tong of Eternal Victory. Allegedly, this was not a martial arts school. It was reported to be a medical clinic. However, there are modern day Choy Lee Fut students who currently use this name.

    Chan Koon Pak, the second son of Chan Heung, opened his own martial arts school. Instead of using the "Hung Sing" (洪聖) that his father was using, he was using the "Hung Sing" (鴻勝) of Cheung Yim's lineage. As the latter was constantly in the news Koon Pak decided it was time to disassociate his school with that of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon (佛山鴻勝舘) and changed his schools' name to a different "Hung Sing" (雄勝) meaning "Strong" or "Heroic" Victory. This name is an offshoot of Cheung Yim's name which would give it a semi-relation to the Hung Mun. The only connection to Koon Pak's father's school is by pronunciation alone, while its appearance, definition, and essence are not something they shared together.

    Currently, there is a push to attach Chan Heung's Hung Sing (洪聖) to the Hung Mun. They have even introduced a new idea of "天下洪圣是一家" (All Hung Sing is one family). Inferring that "洪勝, 鴻勝, and 雄勝 " are somehow a by-product of this Hung Sing (洪聖). As if Chan Heung was the person leading the way for all of Choy Lee Fut in the Hung Mun. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    First of all, "天下洪圣是一家" (All Hung Sing is one family) is borrowed from Hung Mun's slogan "天下洪門是一家" (All Hung Mun is one family). Therefore, with intended repetition, Hung Sing (洪聖) is in reference to both a Deity's Temple and to Emperor Hung Wu. The Temple has nothing to do with the Hung Mun. Hung Wu, is not a member, but, is at the forefront of the Hung Mun society. Hung Wu could be likened to a patron Saint to the society.

    However, Cheung Yim's and Chan Koon Pak's Hung Sing (鴻勝, 雄勝) names are in reference to a "Victory" of some sort. And in this case, is in fact in direct relation to the Hung Society and their goal to overthrow the government. Unlike Chan Heung's Hung Sing (洪聖) which is clearly in reference to an individual, whether it be the southern Chinese Deity or Emperor Hung Wu. When taking this into consideration, I fail to see how "Hung Sing (洪聖)" could be the inspiration to these Hung Sing's (鴻勝, 雄勝). There is absolutely no direct relation with Chan Heung's Hung Sing name to the purpose and cause of the name given to Cheung Hung Sing by Monk Ching Cho.

    "天下洪圣是一家" (All Hung Sing is one family), regardless if it was borrowed from the Hung Mun, is an awesome notion. Although, I believe 天下蔡李佛是一家 (Choy Lee Fut is one family) is a far better choice of words as it encompasses the true Choy Lee Fut of today as we know it. The Choy Lee Fut that is comprised of gung fu created and passed down through the branches of Chan Heung, Cheung Hung Sing, and Tam Sam. But if we followed the idea of all Hung Sing (洪圣) being one family, that would unfortunately exclude Cheung Hung Sing and Tam Sam since neither ever used this Hung Sing (洪圣) name. Not even Chan Koon Pak possessed the same Hung Sing (洪圣) used by his own father.

    In conclusion, attempting to infer that all of Choy Lee Fut's "Hung Sing" (Hung Victory (洪勝), Glorious Victory (鴻勝) and Heroic Victory (雄勝) ) names were derived from Chan Heung's Hung Sing (洪圣) is extremely misleading and completely untrue. The truth needs to be told for the future generations of students to carry on with pride. It is up to us to research, ask questions, and discover the treasures the great system of Choy Lee Fut has to offer. That includes the Chan Family, Fut San Hung Sing, and Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut branches. For without them, Choy Lee Fut wouldn't be as famous as it is today.
    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

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  11. #41
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    More misinformation: Ignore it

    The confusion with a deity's name was the precise reason why Chan Heung used a different name of the same sound when the his schools spread outside of King Mui but he kept it for the ancestral school.
    ..............................
    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

  12. #42
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    Frank,
    I did my research in King Mui and you did yours in Futsan, which is closer to the source? Who is misinformed? Let readers make their own judgment.
    XJ

  13. #43
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    The lies from those other guys never seems to stop

    CHECK THIS OUT: Choy Fook had trained under five teachers, over a period of many years. His teachers were Jue Yuan Monk (觉远上人), Yi Guan Monk (一贯禅师), Li Sou (李叟), Bai Yu Feng (白玉峰), and Cai Jiu Yi (蔡九仪).

    The downright despicable lies continue on while those spreading the lies accuse US of lying to cover up their own dirty deceit.
    For example, according to the above, Monk Choy Fook who allegedly existed in the 18th and 19th centuries (mid 1700's to the mid 1800's) "had trained under five teachers". What the FAIL to inform you about is exactly how Monk Choy Fook was able to train "UNDER" teachers who existed 400 years before he was ever born.

    sure, they will try to justify their lie somehow, but unless monk choy fook possessed a "TIME MACHINE".....everyone should ask their teachers to please explain how a man can train directly under people who existed 4 centuries prior to his own birth.
    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    The downright despicable lies continue on while those spreading the lies accuse US of lying to cover up their own dirty deceit.
    For example, according to the above, Monk Choy Fook who allegedly existed in the 18th and 19th centuries (mid 1700's to the mid 1800's) "had trained under five teachers". What the FAIL to inform you about is exactly how Monk Choy Fook was able to train "UNDER" teachers who existed 400 years before he was ever born.

    sure, they will try to justify their lie somehow, but unless monk choy fook possessed a "TIME MACHINE".....everyone should ask their teachers to please explain how a man can train directly under people who existed 4 centuries prior to his own birth.
    Frank,
    You are not familiar with Chinese correlative/associative thinking, when they say 10,000 they don't mean 10,000 exactly, they mean multitude of things. Using these famous names from different times does not meant Choy Fook literally studied with them all, it is so obviously impossible; it is meant to implied that the tradition of his learning came from the Shaolin practitioners of high levels of skill, that is all.
    XJ

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    The Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon and all of its lineages have NEVER back peddled EVER in regards to its history. In fact, our story grows as we come to know more about our mother school. We have stood our ground EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

    On the other hand, they lineages of chan heung changed their historical story numerous times over the years. For example, they denied the existence of the GREEN GRASS MONK and accused US of creating him. Because we never backed down, they then tried to claim the GGM was Monk Choy Fook. The same guy who learned from masters that existed 400 years prior to his own birth.

    In regards to monk Chan Yuen Wu, they are also confused to which mountain or location this monk lived or trained people. ALSO, they have changed his martial background 3 times already. Initially, he either taught Hung Kuen or Hung Gar (i forget which). Then they claimed he taught chan heung FUT GAR (all because fut san stated "WE" put the FUT in Choy Lee Fut. And currently, information about him states his art was Hung Fut.

    now, today we see this individual EXTRAJOSEPH claim and i quote: "The confusion with a deity's name was the precise reason why Chan Heung used a different name of the same sound when the his schools spread outside of King Mui but he kept it for the ancestral school. "

    First they tried to fool people by using a game of wordplay by saying Cheung Hung Sing didn't open the first Hung Sing school in Fut San. They purposely chose not to inform people that Chan Heung's Hung Sing and Cheung Hung Sing's Hung Sing name are only the same in pronunciation. the actually definition of each name is totally different in essence, definition, and purpose. for example:

    frank,

    your research still sucks, this is just one example: Chan heung did not choose the name himself, the “great sage” name for the ancestral school in king mui was given by choy fook, who also gave him a door couplet for the first school that says “hong cai ding qu wen zhang shi, sheng suan huan tui wu lue tong”

    洪材定取文章事
    聖算還推武略通

    “great talent must obtain its matter from literature (and)
    sagely plans still need martial backing to succeed.”

    it is a way for choy fook to remain chan heung that a great martial artist is a person with a brain as well as brawn - think and plan carefully before you have to fight.
    The above is now the 3RD attempt at misinformation. First it was the deity with the name of Hung Shing, then it was for the Ming Emperor Hung Wu, and now we have a third alteration to their HUNG SING name. People really need to ignore this individual EXTRAJOSEPH as he is the Minister of LIES.
    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

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