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Thread: Bung Bu: QXTLQ -vs- TJMHTLQ

  1. #1
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    Bung Bu: QXTLQ -vs- TJMHTLQ

    Here is a short video I made comparing some movements in the first line of Bung Bu. The video shows photographs of the Qixing Tanglangquan and Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan versions of each movement. I thought some of you might find this interesting. If you like this let me know and I can do these comparisons for other famous sets.

    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

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    VARYS!!!! Your little birds are everywhere, you scare me bro!!!



    Dude!!!! My apologies for the off topic statement. But as a Game of Thrones Fan, it suddenly hit me that you look like VARYS from game of thrones.

    Has anyone else told you that?
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    "O"..."Some people believe that you need to make another human being tap out to be a valid art. But I am constantly reminding them that I only have to defend myself and keep you from hurting me in order to Win."
    "O"..."The Hung Style practiced solely in methods of Antiquity would ultimately only be useful versus Similar skill sets"

  3. #3
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    Nah, I'm way prettier.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

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    Thanks Mooying

    Thanks for the comparisons! It's nice to see the difference but similarities between the different flavors of mantis.
    I'm not a fan of 7 Star mantis, but you could also say I'm biased towards TJMH...

    I think for me it's a control thing. Take the double hook at the beginning of Beng bu. Just taking the implied application from the form, where the double hook posture ends for 7 star, you wind up eating an elbow if they're smart enough to collapse it. You don't have that issue with the TJMH as you've fully locked out their arm, if not hyperextended/broken the elbow. Granted, there are pros and cons to each variation, but I tend to like having more possible control and inflicting more damage with each movement.

    What are your thoughts since you have both? I only have the TJMH and can only assess 7 star methods from what I see and know from my own TJMH background.

    Cheers!
    Josh

  5. #5
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    Junojupiter,
    I can only comment on the way I teach the move in my school. I teach both versions of Bung Bu to those interested in learning them.

    Here is how I teach the application for the Seven Star Mantis Catches the Cicada:
    1. My right hand captures and holds the enemy's right wrist.
    2. My left palm slams down on the elbow of the enemies arm with an iron palm strike to break the enemy's elbow.
    3. Simultaneous to the palm strike, I kick the enemy in the floating ribs with my left foot.

    It is hard for the enemy to thrust the elbow at me when it is busticated. But I agree that controlling the elbow is very necessary in the Seven Star application.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by iunojupiter View Post
    I think for me it's a control thing. Take the double hook at the beginning of Beng bu. Just taking the implied application from the form, where the double hook posture ends for 7 star, you wind up eating an elbow if they're smart enough to collapse it. You don't have that issue with the TJMH as you've fully locked out their arm, if not hyperextended/broken the elbow.
    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    Here is how I teach the application for the Seven Star Mantis Catches the Cicada:
    1. My right hand captures and holds the enemy's right wrist.
    2. My left palm slams down on the elbow of the enemies arm with an iron palm strike to break the enemy's elbow.
    3. Simultaneous to the palm strike, I kick the enemy in the floating ribs with my left foot.
    In the Wong Hon Fan / Brendan Lai line of Mantis, we look for the minimum amount of effort/control that allows delivery of the maximum amount of damage. This is in line with our emphasis on speed, maneuverability, and changeability at a faster rate than the opponent can process. In modern military strategy, this is understood as getting inside the opponent's OODA loop.

    In our version of Bung Bo, the opponent opens with a right side attack which you counter. He does a switch up to follow up with a left hand attack because you momentarily controlled his right.

    Your right hand catches his left wrist and your left hand controls on the inside of his elbow. You are stepping back with this motion, so the effect is to jerk his body forward and his head/torso down while making him sink his weight onto an overextended footwork. This allows a left groin kick into a wide open target. He doesn't have much of a chance to attack with his elbow.

    This approach is more about agility and making your technique appear, then vanish in an instant.

    We do the Mantis Catching Cicada from the outside position as in Richard's example as well. For us, the footwork is either retreating to pull him in, or shooting in to run him over. We have elbow control in either situation so we don't worry about his elbow attack. Either way, we don't stand in one place and duke it out or struggle. We are about transition, mobility, momentum, and the blitz.

    Also, we tend not to do a big power slam on the overturned elbow. Our motions take advantage of small spiraling motions to intercept and control with minimal detection by the opponent. By that time we are already in and our waist power and closing the line generates the force on his elbow with minimal effort on our part. We only need that force for an instant to do damage(to the elbow) and our main interest is to keep going until we have taken him out.

  7. #7

    Thumbs up

    This forum needs a "Like" button. Good post N

    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    In the Wong Hon Fan / Brendan Lai line of Mantis, we look for the minimum amount of effort/control that allows delivery of the maximum amount of damage. This is in line with our emphasis on speed, maneuverability, and changeability at a faster rate than the opponent can process. In modern military strategy, this is understood as getting inside the opponent's OODA loop.

    In our version of Bung Bo, the opponent opens with a right side attack which you counter. He does a switch up to follow up with a left hand attack because you momentarily controlled his right.

    Your right hand catches his left wrist and your left hand controls on the inside of his elbow. You are stepping back with this motion, so the effect is to jerk his body forward and his head/torso down while making him sink his weight onto an overextended footwork. This allows a left groin kick into a wide open target. He doesn't have much of a chance to attack with his elbow.

    This approach is more about agility and making your technique appear, then vanish in an instant.

    We do the Mantis Catching Cicada from the outside position as in Richard's example as well. For us, the footwork is either retreating to pull him in, or shooting in to run him over. We have elbow control in either situation so we don't worry about his elbow attack. Either way, we don't stand in one place and duke it out or struggle. We are about transition, mobility, momentum, and the blitz.

    Also, we tend not to do a big power slam on the overturned elbow. Our motions take advantage of small spiraling motions to intercept and control with minimal detection by the opponent. By that time we are already in and our waist power and closing the line generates the force on his elbow with minimal effort on our part. We only need that force for an instant to do damage(to the elbow) and our main interest is to keep going until we have taken him out.

  8. #8
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    N,
    Great explanation!
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

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