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Thread: 8 section brocade question -> Draw the bow to shoot the hawk

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Indeed. It would be better translated as 'raptor' but most kids today would think of dinosaurs. Draw the bow and shoot the dinosaur is just too Fred Flintstone. The vulture is a raptor too.
    Yeah thats right, I always want to use that word but Jurassic park has kind of ruined it.

    Saying that though they are pretty certain now the velociraptor would have been covered in feathers, some people even think the t-rex as well. I wonder if they will correct this in 'Jurassic world' this year......

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    Greetings,

    herb ox, mawali, rett2 and RenDaHai: Does your transmission come from the current Songsan Shaolin Temple or is it pre 1949?


    mickey

    Hi,

    The version I learned originates from Songshan Shaolin temple pre 1928 and was preserved in nearby villages. The movement uses mabu, and I learned the "for health" version.

  3. #18
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    I have a book detailing the differences between many versions of baduanjin. "Draw the bow" is seen in mabu, reverse gongbu, and sitting...all of them exhale on the stretch. The movement also exists in Buddhist tantric traditions, done sitting, exhaling on the stretch but the action is much more energetic.
    "I'm a highly ranked officer of his tong. HE is the Dragon Head. our BOSS. our LEADER. the Mountain Lord." - hskwarrior

  4. #19
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    I do a 14 section baduanjin

    I've learned several versions over the years and have made my own personal compilation.

    For more information on variations, refer to our Baduanjin-%288-section-brocade%29 thread.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post

    Who exhales to draw a bow???? That is a real first for me.
    Actually this is what was of interest to me - exhalation seems most natural but inhaling seems to emphasize the opening of the chest wall - i.e. enhancing Lung Qi. Also, the contraction of the muscles between the scapulae would stimulate the "Back Shu / Transport" points that correspond to the Lungs. So, maybe different purpose and effect depending on breathing technique?

  6. #21
    Maybe herb ox,

    I was taught to inhale with the extension, exhale while returning to original position. The benefits of doing it this way are, in my opinion, far greater than the other. And yes, the major argument would be intention. I tried it with exhalation on the extension and I really got nothing. The movement is dead for me.

    mickey

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    Greetings,

    herb ox, mawali, rett2 and RenDaHai: Does your transmission come from the current Songsan Shaolin Temple or is it pre 1949?


    mickey
    I am ignorant as to the origin. That is just the way I was taught. My teacher is now around 75 years??? He went to school in Jilin in his youth and his father was a TCM physician.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by herb ox View Post
    Actually this is what was of interest to me - exhalation seems most natural but inhaling seems to emphasize the opening of the chest wall - i.e. enhancing Lung Qi. Also, the contraction of the muscles between the scapulae would stimulate the "Back Shu / Transport" points that correspond to the Lungs. So, maybe different purpose and effect depending on breathing technique?
    The previous movement, "prop up heaven", opens the chest by raising arms during an in-breath, so perhaps thatís already taken care of by the time we get to "shoot the vulture". Either way, I'm all for this try-and-see approach.

  9. #24
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    I actually do this movement twice in my 14 movement permutation

    I do it initially in a stationary mabu akin to the way I was taught by Shi Decheng (see The Eight Section Brocade: Qigong From Shaolin Temple By Gene Ching (May June 2001). The second time, I do it shifting through reverse gongbu with each repetition. This follows the way three different teachers taught it to me, Grandmaster Tu Jin-Sheng (see Eight Pieces of Brocade, Master Tony Chen and my previous Shaolin Master, Shi Yantuo.

    If I'm feeling particularly martial, I'll draw the bow with Hung Gar-like Kiu Sau isometric tension because I like how that alleviates RSI issue (being a writer, I'm on a keyboard constantly, so this is a huge personal issue). I'll also do it in deeper stances when in that mood. If not, I draw it in a more conventional 'soft' qigong manner in higher stances and focus on the flow. Now that I've crossed the half-century mark, I find staring at the fingertip as the bow is drawn to be very important - it really helps with my declining vision (again, given my job, I have to read a lot, and it's blurring my eyes more and more). Every day is different, so every practice is different. That's what it means to stay in the moment.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  10. #25
    Greetings,

    "Prop Up Heaven" is the best of the eight. It works the three Dan Tiens. If you have only time to do one, this would be it.

    The benefits of doing the inhalation while drawing the bow, as described by herb ox, are spot on and are not directly addressed by any other exercise in the sequence.

    mickey

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    The benefits of doing the inhalation while drawing the bow,
    If you think about it, exhaling when you draw a real bow is completely wrong....whoever developed it with an exhale there must have never actually shot a bow...
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    If you think about it, exhaling when you draw a real bow is completely wrong....whoever developed it with an exhale there must have never actually shot a bow...
    Whoever invented monkey steals peaches obviously never stole peaches either.

    Anyhow, in the spirit of science and free exchange I'm going to spend some time trying out the pull/inhale version.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    Whoever invented monkey steals peaches obviously never stole peaches either.
    But it's such a sweet name! Of course so is "draw the bow, shoot the hawk."
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    Greetings mawali,

    Who exhales to draw a bow???? That is a real first for me.

    mickey
    All just IME as I'm a beginner, but was taught that one of the key things to learn from BaDuanJin is how to apply force:

    Inhaling IME is almost always done during deflective movements due in part to the natural extension of the spine that comes with the inhale (and the relaxation of lowerback/anus/perineum/etc.)

    So to exhale on the prep as you're suggesting (before drawing the bow) seems to make it more of an offensive movement, as the spine has some flexion and some force is being applied, as some tension naturally exists or builds slightly during the exhale (e.g. anus naturally slightly tightens, core muscles tightening, spine undergoing flexion). Doing this might naturally lead to inhaling on the "bow draw" which is akward given the shoulder/elbow/hand positioning of both movements, so with adjustment that might be able to become more of a deflection, but because it's a retreating movement, it's seems unnatural to me to retreat that far back while only deflecting rather than applying force.

    Whereas the inhale on the prep-movement makes it more of a ward-off, then the exhale and bow drawing motion has a variety of applications such as the front hand applying force with a slight downward (gravity) application, lending to takedowns, arm pulls, etc. This seems to make much more intuitive sense to have it in this order and given the structures involved

    FOR REFERENCE:

    https://vimeo.com/18911353#t=27m55s
    https://youtu.be/_NRnsvvNga0?t=7m25s

  15. #30
    Greetings,

    Matthew, I appreciate your martial perspective of the movement as justification for exhaling on the extension.

    In addition to the benefits that herb ox posted, the inhalation on the extension opens up the channels of the arms, preparing it for the following exercise, the single arm raise. That sequence takes the foundation already established and extends the chi outward to the hands.

    mickey

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