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Thread: Which came first?

  1. #1

    Which came first?

    Saw some mentioning (on another thread) about WC being either "knife-based" or "hands-based" (with knives being taught last and altogether different usage from hand fighting). Thought this was quite interesting so figured I'd start a thread on it...

    Just wondering what y'all think regarding this? Do you think WC is based around the knives or the other way around? Did WC empty-hand evolve from knife-based ideas or was WC already codified as a "system" and then somewhere along its history the knives were added and molded to fit the hands?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    I know Guy thinks not. He may be right but I would like to know too. Boxing evolved from weapons. Granted there was always a crude form of whatever but boxing as we know it today evolved from them. I swear I recall an article in one of the old Mags where someone postulated that very idea. I had forgotten about it until Bawang brought it up.

    What is the consensus of the guys that know the history ?

    I just did a quick search and due to time constraints. Came up empty. But I did find this one the evolution of the butterflies. Battlefield weapon. Makes sense when things get tight drop the staff ( probably would have been a spear) and go to shorter weapons. Bodies coming in from all directions. Less chance the weapon will be taken away.- http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...utterflySwords

    Guy may be right though. It could have just been adopted by WC. The guys on the boats. Like Naval vessel used. Shorter swords.
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 10-02-2015 at 08:56 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Boxing evolved from weapons.
    Pole would be a better candidate than knives given how fundamental it is to the system and the similarity between use of hands and pole.

    Bits of the wing chun pole form show up in other MA from the region. One explanation may be that it is from military or militia training, or from a previous art common to several systems.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    Pole would be a better candidate than knives given how fundamental it is to the system and the similarity between use of hands and pole.

    Bits of the wing chun pole form show up in other MA from the region. One explanation may be that it is from military or militia training, or from a previous art common to several systems.
    I think I read somewhere that the pole ideas are also prevalent and embedded in WC kicking and long-range fighting strategies... clever Chinese folks!

  5. #5
    Will either or both of you expand on that please? What empty hand techniques are pole form ? I did post a video where they were showing some of the idea. Guy, do you believe that because pole form is based more around linear attacks- thrusts?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Will either or both of you expand on that please? What empty hand techniques are pole form ? I did post a video where they were showing some of the idea. Guy, do you believe that because pole form is based more around linear attacks- thrusts?
    boxerbilly, essentially, if you take the pole ideas and movements, without the pole in your hands, they are sometimes used in empty hand situations. One example would be the high spearing motion seen in some pole forms... translated to empty hand means what some call the bow and arrow punch aka pole punch etc. Obviously it is only used sparingly and in certain circumstances...
    Another huge benefit to pole training (as it relates to empty hand) is a massive increase in power.

  7. #7
    wckf92, Like this ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6yjPGabSkk

    There is an idea similar to this in boxing. Called the drop step. Same vertical fist idea. Dempsey wrote about it. Dempsey wanted no rear leg movement. I could never make it work that way. I needed to push off the rear. Launch myself. A heavy guy could probably do it with no push off the rear. Dempsey was like, basically fall forward.
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 10-02-2015 at 02:00 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    wckf92, Like this ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6yjPGabSkk

    There is an idea similar to this in boxing. Called the drop step. Same vertical fist idea. Dempsey wrote about it. Dempsey wanted no rear leg movement. I could never make it work that way. I needed to push off the rear. Launch myself. A heavy guy could probably do it with no push off the rear. Dempsey was like, basically fall forward.

    A more modern version of the drop step- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rPs112Vw9g - tighter, quicker lighter step.
    The punches would ideally land a split second before the foot. Same time if not.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Yes, kind of like that. The first part of that video is simply a movement / idea plucked from a weapons form (pole) and used empty-handed in long range situations. Additionally, repeating that move with the pole (of the correct length and weight) will greatly enhance body unity and punching power for that particular hand.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    Yes, kind of like that. The first part of that video is simply a movement / idea plucked from a weapons form (pole) and used empty-handed in long range situations. Additionally, repeating that move with the pole (of the correct length and weight) will greatly enhance body unity and punching power for that particular hand.
    Cool. Thanks. If you are able. Please post examples of other weapons to empty hand translations please.
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 10-02-2015 at 02:24 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Cool. Thanks. If you are able. Please post examples of other weapons to empty hand translations please.
    Another example is the 'lifting pole' .... translated to WC leg means keeping the leg relatively straight, while lifting it violently into the groin area.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    Another example is the 'lifting pole' .... translated to WC leg means keeping the leg relatively straight, while lifting it violently into the groin area.
    Straight leg front kick ? Maybe a little bend in the leg. How to do get more power with that? Sinking on the rear leg? A pre sink and rise back up ? Throwing the hip forward? Any and all of those? Other way? Or is it mainly speed?
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 10-02-2015 at 02:51 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Straight leg front kick ? Maybe a little bend in the leg. How to do get more power with that? Sinking on the rear leg? A pre sink and rise back up ? Throwing the hip forward? Any and all of those? Other way? Or is it mainly speed?
    Yes, generally straight, knee may or may not be bent a little, base leg should already be sunk, hip may shoot forward, and the upper body tilts back.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
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    Yes, generally straight, knee may or may not be bent a little, base leg should already be sunk, hip may shoot forward, and the upper body tilts back.
    Great and you got the counter to the jab or cross there too.

    It is funny. Some of the best counter to punches are kicks and some of the best counters to kicks are punches. Obviously in the ring it may have to be more push kick. No nuts.
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 10-02-2015 at 03:25 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Will either or both of you expand on that please? What empty hand techniques are pole form ? I did post a video where they were showing some of the idea. Guy, do you believe that because pole form is based more around linear attacks- thrusts?
    Pole ideas are identical to hand ideas. It is used like 1 arm in wing chun

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