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Thread: Secrets

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    does that make anything you dont know as a practitioner a "secret"
    Where do you draw the line??
    I will say "secret" in the past is some information that you can't find in any books. Today, you may find your information online if you google hard enough. But there are still some information that you can't find online.

    May be the grappling art has more secret than the striking art. IMO, a secret can be a method to

    1. train certain skill,
    2. set up certain technique,
    3. execute certain technique,
    4. counter certain technique.

    1. Train certain skill - for example, there are 4 level of stretching.

    1. 頂 (Ding) - top of head touch toes.
    2. 扣 (Kou) - forehead touch toes.
    3. 吻 (Wen) - mouth touch toes.
    4. 佛 (Fo) - chin touch toes.

    Some people may reach to the 1st or 2nd level and think they have reached to their limitation. When they get older and no longer be able to improve their stretching, they may find out the other 2 levels and wish they could know that when they were young.

    2. Set up certain technique - for example, if you apply "hip throw", when you spin you body, your opponent can spin with you and drag you down. There is an angle that when you enter, you don't need to spin. Will you be able to find that information in books? May be not. If you Google hard enough, can you find it online? may be you can.

    3. Execute certain technique - for example, If you can twist your opponent's spine or knee joint side way, you can take all his counters away. What kind of techniques can help you to achieve that? Can you find it in any book? Will you be able to Google it online?

    4. Counter certain technique - for example, how to counter when your opponent drags your arm and runs in circle?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 11-12-2015 at 08:56 PM.
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  2. #32

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Thats my point. It was a secret to you but im sure plenty of people may have picked up on that (im no Golf expert, so it is an assumption to be honest)
    Once again, whats a secret as opposed to something the practitioner doesn't know but plenty of people do?
    So the detail of this one is kind of interesting - I have played golf as a hobby since a child. Why did my mind single this out as a "secret" as opposed to good fundamental instruction? I asked myself that. In general the concept is known and taught - called "hitting into a solid left side". I had been taught that before, and actually was employing that fundamental in my swing.

    I've taken lessons before, say at $50/hr that will provide instruction by a PGA teaching professional that focused on hitting into a solid left side.

    This guy had a swing analyzer at a tech conference I was at, and was a PGA teaching professional plus he had worked with this company that developed the swing analyzer technical equipment. He gave me a free lesson I won at a drawing there. I got into hitting 20 - 30 balls off a tee while the computer was gathering certain info about my swing. When the numbers came up they have baseline numbers comparing what certain things should look like with a pro swing, like spin rate on the ball and other things. My numbers showed a higher spin rate than optimum.

    A higher spin rate caused an effect on my golf game. Any shot hit with a clubface angle (hook or slice) would have the amount it was taken offline amplified. Plus, even a straight shot wasn't going as far as it could have with optimum spin. So I was spending energy I didn't need to be spending to obtain results that were sub-optimum. Off the tee I was more "all over the place", rather than controlled and hitting irons from the short grass into the greens.

    So the pro because he was a PGA teaching pro plus he had some extra special ability to translate things IMO, looked closely at my swing and saw the increased spin was caused by how late I was getting to the solid left side in my swing, so there was a lot of hip vertical motion being imparted very close to impact with the ball. So he worked with me for about 30 minutes to get my forward hip energy stabilized onto a solid left side earlier in my downswing. This made the numbers line up more with optimal numbers.

    So after 5+ years away from this lesson I guess this is why my brain categorizes it as a "secret" rather than a fundamental everyone knows that I just wasn't up to speed on. I still use that lesson to this day on every swing, and it reduces the energy I need to put into it, and gets a better result. If I put a money value on that lesson it would be at least 10x a normal one - $500.

    Anyway now you know way more than you ever wanted to about the game of golf and I don't know what about this applies to wing chun and secrets but maybe you tell me what you guys think.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Hi Guy,

    Not in boxing and wrestling. ITF most guys were open. It really depended who you asked stuff to. Some guys were ****s. Others were like, well it is kind of early but this is how you do it. Isshin Ryu had a lot of guy full of ****. But the head guy was very open to showing you anything if you asked. You may not get what he told you though. To early.

    edit, no boxing and wrestling had ****s too. Yeah, there were guys that would not talk to anyone they did not like. You might not even have done nothing , they just did not like anyone. Small clique guys. Maybe it is just personality ? I always had friends in all sorts of cliques. I was weird. I was a jock that hung out with stoners and loved the smart geeks. I had all sorts of friends. A main group but we were open. Anyone was good by us. We did not like bullies. If a guy did not want to fight, leave him alone.
    You know I do have to agree with you on the boxing and wrestling side. They don't hide much there, they tend to express their arts as there are no secrets, just hard work.
    Although in general I will say I've noticed an attitude about needing to prove your seriousness to the veterans around the gyms before they will even acknowledge your existence, so maybe functionally some of that is built in too.

    However I will tell you from my personal experience on both the boxing and wrestling side, people teach their "game", which I think may amount to more or less of a secret. I mean if a certain entry works on wrestlers all the way up to Olympic level, and you drill it for a bit, and others aren't familiar with it, then maybe the way it actually works out practically is a bit different than they say openly, even if everybody may have been taught that entry at one point. Or another wrestler has a hard setup for a far side single-leg that is smooth as glass plus world class single leg defense and can teach it to someone. Or a 3rd wrestler's turning throw game destroyed everyone through nationals and he teaches it.

    anyways a few more thoughts.
    Last edited by Wayfaring; 11-13-2015 at 08:45 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    Anyway now you know way more than you ever wanted to about the game of golf and I don't know what about this applies to wing chun and secrets but maybe you tell me what you guys think.
    Good post.

    This has everything to do with kung fu and other secrets.

    It's in the fundamentals and the ability to identify and correct specifically what is deficient.

    Those things are "secrets" if the teacher can't communicate them, or if the student can't recognize them.
    Last edited by -N-; 11-13-2015 at 09:09 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    Boxing strategy has secrets. Floyds d for example nobody has figured it out so he must have secrets. At least from what I've seen people don't face him the first time and say I've seen all that before. Roger probably has training secrets he doesn't let out for Floyd. Even in an open environment like boxing
    IMO, the secret to Floyd's success has more to do with his God-given natural talent and abilities than any particular secrets. As much as I dislike him, that's how I have to see it. He has his own unique style (as does every fighter, some more unique and effective than others), and the ability to pull it off. Roger Mayweather could probably teach a couple hundred other fighters Floyd's style, and even if someone talented could mimic it in appearance, they wouldn't necessarily be able to pull it off in the ring like Floyd can. Though I'm sure his camp had secrets they didn't want spilled to the other camp, like strategies, etc. But I think Floyd's real secret is his unique athletic talent. Even if his opponents knew exactly what he planned to do, the outcome would likely be the same.

    Another fighter with unbelievable natural talent was Roy Jones Jr. During his peak years, he would outclass his opponents and leave them completely baffled. In his case, he did a lot of things technically 'wrong' according to many boxing analysts, but got away with it due to his incredible natural reflexes, athleticism, speed, etc. That helped him pull off the unexpected. Of course, his lack in some other areas eventually caught up with him as his body aged and his natural physical gifts started to 'betray' him and deteriorate.

    There are always certain super-talented individuals in any system who can make things work in ways that are unique to themselves, that don't necessarily apply to others in the system.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 11-13-2015 at 10:14 AM.

  7. #37
    On a more practical front, an important secret underexamined, is Wing Chen's shear breadth of application and understanding. Because of Wing Chuns Universal neutrality at rest. The potential of expression is truly wide. How many encourage this to its true potential?
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

  8. #38
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    Funnily a question i was just pondering. i remember my sifu asking some students to be indoor students of his (not me, i had only been training a short period with him) it never came to anything, i remember him saying it a good while later, that he never had time due to a career change and that it would happen in the future. It never did. Anyway, my teacher was always open and would answer any questions i had, some times he would say that comes a bit later on, but would tell me, not necessarily show me to an teaching extent though, due to trying to run before I could walk (step before i could stand would be better lol) but, that was in the beginning, as the years went by it changed. I was just thinking, what would they have learned that i wouldn't have? That's definitely a secret, since it never happened and my sifu passed away..

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.O View Post
    Funnily a question i was just pondering. i remember my sifu asking some students to be indoor students of his (not me, i had only been training a short period with him) it never came to anything, i remember him saying it a good while later, that he never had time due to a career change and that it would happen in the future. It never did. Anyway, my teacher was always open and would answer any questions i had, some times he would say that comes a bit later on, but would tell me, not necessarily show me to an teaching extent though, due to trying to run before I could walk (step before i could stand would be better lol) but, that was in the beginning, as the years went by it changed. I was just thinking, what would they have learned that i wouldn't have? That's definitely a secret, since it never happened and my sifu passed away..
    Who knows ? That is my point. In his line, whatever he knew and did not share, died with him. That is a shame. Sorry he has passed on.

  10. #40
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    Anyway now you know way more than you ever wanted to about the game of golf and I don't know what about this applies to wing chun and secrets but maybe you tell me what you guys think.

    Great post.
    Just highlights that once you get the basics of a technique correct, its the finer details that further enhance the performance. Shame there isn't a "punch analyzer"!!!!

    Currently at the gym we are working on power right now and, in particular, the cross.
    Its amazing , with a bit of fine tuning just like your golf lesson, how much more power you can get out of someone in one solid session, even the more experienced guys.

    So is it s secret?
    No, i guess what ive bought to boxing from WC is an analytical mind and applied that to my approach to both boxing and boxing coaching. The guys in the gym say im somewhat fixated by structure! lol
    Who would have thought cross-training would have worked!

    I think we are so lucky to be martial artists at this stage in history, the access to other cultures, forums like this, videos (god there are some great videos out there) and so on ,mean we can dispose of the ideas of "secrets" and focus more on the actual outcomes of our training

  11. #41
    For me as a student I feel that there shouldn't be any secrets. Wing Chun was made to be simple and direct.
    I agree that you can't teach someone to run before he can walk, but the principles may never change. I have no need for secret techniekes I just want my wing chun to work. As an example I would like to be able to dominate an opponent from the moment we make contact just by using principles and good footwork.
    On the other hand, if someone has a secret to help me " bridge the gap" you are always welcome.

    Thx

  12. #42
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    Secrets are ultimately self defeating. IMO there are correlations between combat skills and cryptography.

    Amateur cryptographers use "security through obscurity". On the assumption that hiding the algorithm they use will keep their data secure.

    The strongest crypto algorithms are those that are published widely and the best codebreakers in the business encouraged to do their best to break them. If they hold up after the entire internet tries to crack them after a period of years, you can have a lot of confidence in them. If you know exactly how the algorithm works, but still can't decrypt any message encoded with it in any useful timescale without knowing the password/passphrase, that's STRONG encryption.

    Arguably, Jiu Jitsu has continued to grow and evolve, unlike many TCMA's, because all the techniques are visible online and in competition. Someone may come up with a new technique with which they beat the competition for a while, but the competitors analyse what the winner is doing and work out ways to counter it. The winner then upgrades his technique by developing counters to those counters, and on and on, and everyone's game gets stronger and stronger. A secret technique which is only trained with trusted like minded peers is highly unlikely to be pressure tested to anywhere near the same degree.

    Impressive technique is the jiu jitsu guy who says, "Let's roll, I'm going to submit you with an armbar on your right arm and you won't be able to stop me," or the wing chun guy that can say, I'm going to hit you here with this and then there with that," and you can't stop him. Not the guy who pulls some weird sh*t off during a surprise attack, but can't pull it off a second time on the same person.

    To mangle an old saying, you do not rise to the level of your technique, you fall to the level of your training. The level of your training of those secret techniques is likely to be fairly low.

    The need for or value of secret empty hand techniques in the age of guns, military drones, etc. is highly questionable. What's the worst possible thing that could happen if someone finds out about your super secret technique? Not much, I'll bet.

    There's the "invisible jiu jitsu" sort of stuff, which applies to all arts, though that's not so much a secret as it is more the noticing of things that can only be felt and require some experience to appreciate.

    Most of what I've seen presented as stylistic secrets aren't techniques per se. Rather they are ways of training, drills, etc. that if practised over a period of years might give you an edge in certain circumstances. Some are ways of practising that if spies saw me training it they might think, "no point spying on this guy, he's f***ing all the techniques up." And most of them could be stumbled across by a student with a moderately creative mindset who didn't accept everything they were told uncritically and was prepared to look for areas of intersections with other activities or disciplines.

    There is some value to the strategic withholding of information in the teaching process. I wrote an article about this some time ago:

    http://www.w1ng.com/secrets/#more-56
    Last edited by anerlich; 11-30-2015 at 06:53 PM.
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