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Thread: Indian Martial Arts

  1. #46

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by SPJ
    In the beginning, it is probably grappling, pushing and throwing. OR wrestling and Shuai Jiao.

    Then the animal forms or mimicking the way the "beasts" fight.

    And this all happened before any language, or philosophy arrived.

    --

    It is only a conjesture/guess.

    I agree with you. The human race had to survive amongst other beasts. Wrestling, pushiing, throwing, hitting were all realistic ways of defence or offence. Men learned from each other different ways of attacks including from animals. As for weapons, it must have been the stick which is an extension of the arm. From there, other weapons came about. Over the ages, it was religion which adopted fighting styles whether it be Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, or Christianity and had their own input of philosophy on life. However, there were philosophers and thinkers who left religion out of the picture and basically focused on human conduct for everyday life and thought. For example, Confucius of China, and Thiruvaluvar of Tamilakkam.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey
    Wow, if Kalari is the Kung fu, what kung fu is to Karate, then I think we should really look into Kalari. I think kung fu has all this stuff too, but they play with live blades. I am very interested in this.


    http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/tahtib.html

    evidently there are lots of mid east MA's.
    There is no actual proof that Kalari "IS" Gong Fu.

    The "Kalari IS Gong Fu" theory depends on buying into Damo as the origin of CMA. Since it's pretty clear that there was CMA of some sort in China long before Damo this holds no water.

    What is more likely is that fighting arts originated basically anywhere civilization did and then cross-polinated as cultures came into contact with each other. Civilizations that didn't know how to fight didn't last when their war-like neighbours showed up.

    PS: Mas Oyama should have just stuck to fighting. He's neither a historian nor an anthropoligist and the whole Greece>India>China>Japan thing is forgetting that there were people doing stuff in China long before Alexander opened up east-west trade routes through Persia.

    PPS: Even IF this were true Greece still doesn't deserve credit because Egypt came up with it first. It's like that episode of South Park: Greece says "we have this great idea (eg: medicine, architecture, military strategy, etc.)" and someone could pop up (mabey Persia) and say "Egypt did it".
    Last edited by SimonM; 07-21-2006 at 03:48 AM.
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  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonM
    There is no actual proof that Kalari "IS" Gong Fu.
    The "Kalari IS Gong Fu" theory depends on buying into Damo as the origin of CMA. Since it's pretty clear that there was CMA of some sort in China long before Damo this holds no water.
    I agree with you. In the first place Kalari was not around before the 13th century. Has anyone looked into Kuttu Varisai. It is basically the empty hand combat with hand and foot movements of Tamil Nadu. This art looks like a combination of both Kung-Fu and Karate unlike Kalaripayattu. As a matter of fact, there are some movements in Kalari which look like Ninjitsu. As a matter of fact, Kalari is from Kerala, and Da Mo is from Tamil Nadu. Kalaripayattu is not an indigenous art in Tamil Nadu.

    And of course, there had to be some kind of fighting technique in China prior to Damo or Daruma. Darumas main goal was to spread the Buddhist denominational sect of Dhyan [Chan in Chinese; Zen in Japanese]. That was pretty much most of his work. As for the fighting aspect of it, he just introduced some methods of the fighting techniques of his birthplace Kanchipuram, Tamil Nadu... Not India! India did not exist back then, there were many countries in that part of the world in those days.

    Some of these techniques such as the 18 Lohan can be seen in Kuttu Varisai, including some of the weapons techniques.

  4. #49
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    Cool Actually...

    I am skeptical of Ninjitsu's history. I mean Ninjas didn't exist until Warring period of Japan which is around 1600s? BTW, why would a secretive profession like the Ninja (basically assassins) be so out of the "closet"? That's pretty much Hollywood 80's craze that created the so called Ninjitsu that we know today. So... I don't doubt the assassin skills being "systemized" but is it authentic and as "ancient" as we think it is?

    Speaking of authenticity, 18 Luohan didn't exist around Bodhidharma's time. There were always 16 elders/guardians in the Buddhist tradition. 18 Luohan is a Chinese thing and it properly didn't exist until Qing dynasty (c. 1644 - 1910 CE) which is the time which the legend of Bodhidharma became popular. I remember reading some article about it. So it's doubtful that he "created" even that.

    Just thought that record should be set straight since the article about Kalaripayattu seems so concern with "facts".

    Mantis108
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    對敵交手歌訣

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  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by mantis108

    Speaking of authenticity, 18 Luohan didn't exist around Bodhidharma's time. There were always 16 elders/guardians in the Buddhist tradition. 18 Luohan is a Chinese thing and it properly didn't exist until Qing dynasty (c. 1644 - 1910 CE)
    Mantis108
    Thank you for the interesting post. Could you give me some sources on this? I would like to read more about it. Regards.

  6. #51
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    Smile Hi Jingo,

    Here's the link to the 16 Arhat:

    16 Arhat

    BTW, I think Arhat is the plural form of Arhnan (sp?).

    On a side note, 18 Luohan IMHO is possibly a grass root level influence that the Chinese Buddhist temples adopted in order to attrack the masses who are really the financial sources of the temples. It also has to do with sometime militant cult movement such as the White Lotus which worship the Buddha Maitreya. This is the reason that 18 Luohan and martial arts are very much connected IMHO. In other words, no cult no 18 Luohan.

    Regards

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

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  7. #52
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    ancient natural martial art from India rediscovered

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG4lDaKum3U

    Very interesting if it is true.

    Seems that this ancient Indian martial art is pretty much the same as
    the Zi Ran system from China.

    From what I see in this video, they are doing much the same things as the Zi Ran style.

  8. #53
    cjurakpt Guest
    don't know, looks like second rate kalari payattu, TBH

  9. #54
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    Cool

    It's a romantic version of systema IMHO to put it nicely. In truth, this is rip off of ancient wisdom. The breathing technique that the "teacher" showed is Yoga Nadis (sp?) techniques (re: Diaphragmatic breathing). Even Rickson Gracie used that in his BJJ training. The training methodology is IMHO a bar-stardized version of systema. True and funtional martial arts is never on paper or hidden within pages and lines of books. It is in the hands of real practitioners. This guy should wake up and smell the volka.

    Sorry to rain on the parade.

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  10. #55
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    I see no ancient secrets portrayed in the video. All I see in the video is techniques practical martial artists have known for years.

  11. #56
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    Agreed, I think he is making it up (that he found papers in sanskrit that he used to rediscover some ancient martial art).

    The human body works as the human body works.
    Natural core principles exist regardless if you discover or rediscover them, nothing would work if this was not the case.

  12. #57
    He may very well have found the papers. But what back ground does he have to accurately rebuild this art?

    Also, if this was in a German library, I'd bet live players of this style are in India..what has he done to seek them out and compare to make sure he's got it right?

  13. #58
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    Rediscover and reinterpert are two different animals!

    I can read and write Chinese but that doesn't mean that I can "proficiently" understand ancient texts, usually because of lack of a sense of historical context, other than those that have been studied by scholars throughout the ages. I might come across an ancient (less studied) book and reinterpert it or literally bent it to my likings and call the action "rediscovery". We have to be cautious about that in studying ancient texts of any language.

    Besides, if scholars in thousands of years couldn't figure out the "secret", what probability is there for a non native speaker of a certain language to "decipher" the foreign ancient text especial when historic and cultural context are huge variables? Think about it how could a hobbist with limited study and resources be able to do a decent job on the matter?

    I am not saying it's not possible to apply philosophy or principles in ancient texts to martial arts or rather reinvent one but to make the claim of rediscovery of an "lost art" in a specific anciet text is quite absurb especially when the text has more to do with religious and philosophical matter.

    Martial academia is serious business in my mind. I think we need to treat it accordingly. Just a thought ...

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  14. #59

  15. #60
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    no such thing as 5k yr old systems.

    marketing-fu... not even very good marketing fu.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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