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Thread: Training

  1. #1
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    Training

    I thought this article had some good points on training that applies to martial arts, and is germane to recent discussions:

    https://breakingmuscle.com/learn/tra...pply-it-part-3

  2. #2
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    You need to understand a method before looking for counterarguments to it out of spite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    You need to understand a method before looking for counterarguments to it out of spite.
    There you go trying to start another argument. I posted it simply because I thought it was interesting and spoke to the idea of training "applications." You don't like it, you don't have to read it.

  4. #4
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    You know most of those who I have met or read about of a high level of skill hardly ever argued with others.
    If you are secure in your approach then so be it, no need or benefit of always trying to put differing views down.


    LFJ, I am going to step outside of my normal response for a moment and ask you something, and this does relate to Training so it is relevant to this thread.

    You have made statements that you do not train applications, not in forms or apparently elsewhere in your approach to WC/VT/WT.

    So my question is:

    When you practice Chi Sau, which from previous videos posted, it appears that you utilize the same movements other Yip Man lineages utilize.
    So, that being the case, are you not actually training to apply techniques/applications within the framework of Chi Sau to respond to specific techniques.
    In other words aren't you training to respond to specific actions or energy with specific responses? While I agree that there can be modifications and your response can and should vary depending on what is given, but don't you need to know and learn how to respond with something specific? At least in the beginning?

    If not then please explain what you are using Chi Sau for if not training to respond in a preset pattern with some variations.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    You know most of those who I have met or read about of a high level of skill hardly ever argued with others.
    If you are secure in your approach then so be it, no need or benefit of always trying to put differing views down.


    LFJ, I am going to step outside of my normal response for a moment and ask you something, and this does relate to Training so it is relevant to this thread.

    You have made statements that you do not train applications, not in forms or apparently elsewhere in your approach to WC/VT/WT.

    So my question is:

    When you practice Chi Sau, which from previous videos posted, it appears that you utilize the same movements other Yip Man lineages utilize.
    So, that being the case, are you not actually training to apply techniques/applications within the framework of Chi Sau to respond to specific techniques.
    In other words aren't you training to respond to specific actions or energy with specific responses? While I agree that there can be modifications and your response can and should vary depending on what is given, but don't you need to know and learn how to respond with something specific? At least in the beginning?

    If not then please explain what you are using Chi Sau for if not training to respond in a preset pattern with some variations.
    Chi sau is not fighting or a simulation of fighting. So learning applications from chi sau is a non-sequitur from the point of view of WSL VT. You can't fight from chi sau because the opponent can leave chi sau whenever they like. It is an artificial drill relying upon cooperation and designed to teach certain things relevant to fighting.

    A similar method is "grinding arms" in some other southern chinese MA, although chi sau much more developed and flexible, and of course teaching aspects of a completely different system

    Last edited by guy b.; 04-11-2017 at 11:39 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    Chi sau is not fighting or a simulation of fighting. So learning applications from chi sau is a non-sequitur from the point of view of WSL VT. You can't fight from chi sau because the opponent can leave chi sau whenever they like. It is an artificial drill relying upon cooperation and designed to teach certain things relevant to fighting.

    A similar method is "grinding arms" in some other southern chinese MA, although chi sau much more developed and flexible, and of course teaching aspects of a completely different system

    Okay, let's try to get an answer to something simple.

    When you guys do Chi Sau (which no one is saying is fighting) do you use Taun, Bong and other "techniques"?
    Do you ever use these "techniques" in fighting?
    If so then I would submit that you train applications.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Okay, let's try to get an answer to something simple.
    Good luck!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Okay, let's try to get an answer to something simple.

    When you guys do Chi Sau (which no one is saying is fighting) do you use Taun, Bong and other "techniques"?
    Do you ever use these "techniques" in fighting?
    If so then I would submit that you train applications.
    Tan is not a technique, it is a training methodology

    There is no application of anything in chi sau as in fighting, therefore no applications are trained. Rather particular attributes are trained.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    Tan is not a technique, it is a training methodology

    There is no application of anything in chi sau as in fighting, therefore no applications are trained. Rather particular attributes are trained.
    I wonder if you guys practice "Empty Chi"
    Seems like getting any real answers is impossible, like trying to grasp mist.

    So you guys train "attributes" but you utilize the same shapes as others doing WC but you do it in some totally different way.
    Of course this should make all of your guys awesome and unbeatable...................I am waiting to see where all of your fighters are

    Your group makes attacks and derides TWC, which I do not train, yet who do you point to that stands tall and represents your approach in combat?
    In TWC I would ask have any of your guys ever sparred with Rick Spain or any of his students?
    Anyone ever crossed hands with Emin?

    When one does not know something or is unable to explain it then it can lead others to question whether they are lying or just not smart enough to explain things for others to understand. Now, the inability to understand something could be the fault of the person asking the question. However, it can also be the fault of the one trying to provide the answer.

    Taun is one of the seeds of Wing Chun. While it does teach attributes it is also used in application.
    You are welcome to say that it does not however, I would then aks you to show any video where you guys actually spar yet fail to use any of the commonly recognized "techniques" of Wing Chun. I highly doubt you can do this. Instead I expect more of the same vague "we don't use applications or techniques, we use attributes.............I dare say if that is true it is highly unlikely any of you can use your approach for real. In other words, if you were to try and use your system you would have to use techniques or applications or you would simply get your butt handed to you for trying to use just "attributes".

    Of course it would be easy to prove me wrong. You have asked for clips showing other using their approach in sparring. I submit you show the same thing. There is one caveat though, since you guys don't use applications or techniques nor do you train to use such, I would like to see a clip of any of your guys fighting and wining without the use of a single "application".

    I won't hold my breath waiting as I know you can't produce anything within those parameters.

    Good Luck!!!
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I wonder if you guys practice "Empty Chi"
    Seems like getting any real answers is impossible, like trying to grasp mist
    I am happy to try and explain to you, I am sorry for any short answers; I am wary of KPM who is a troll hanging around this forum at the moment.

    So you guys train "attributes" but you utilize the same shapes as others doing WC but you do it in some totally different way.
    Of course this should make all of your guys awesome and unbeatable...................I am waiting to see where all of your fighters are
    I don't think there is any need for sarcasm.

    Your group makes attacks and derides TWC, which I do not train, yet who do you point to that stands tall and represents your approach in combat?
    In TWC I would ask have any of your guys ever sparred with Rick Spain or any of his students?
    Anyone ever crossed hands with Emin?
    I am not deriding anyone. But neither am I idiotically enthusiastic about training methodologies I don't agree with. I am happy to live and let live as far as TWC is concerned. Unfortunately KPM is using TWC as a device to troll LFJ in a long argument spilling over from the snowflake-infested martial talk forum. It would probably take too long to explain the ins and outs of this boring conflict here and now, so I guess you will need to approach with an open mind if you want to converse.

    Many people from WT and TWC have come to WSL VT. Sparring has happened. My opinion is what it is.

    When one does not know something or is unable to explain it then it can lead others to question whether they are lying or just not smart enough to explain things for others to understand. Now, the inability to understand something could be the fault of the person asking the question. However, it can also be the fault of the one trying to provide the answer.
    What do you want me to explain?

    Taun is one of the seeds of Wing Chun. While it does teach attributes it is also used in application
    Not in WSL VT. Tan is punch training, not a technique to apply in fighting

    You are welcome to say that it does not however, I would then aks you to show any video where you guys actually spar yet fail to use any of the commonly recognized "techniques" of Wing Chun. I highly doubt you can do this. Instead I expect more of the same vague "we don't use applications or techniques, we use attributes.............I dare say if that is true it is highly unlikely any of you can use your approach for real. In other words, if you were to try and use your system you would have to use techniques or applications or you would simply get your butt handed to you for trying to use just "attributes"

    Of course it would be easy to prove me wrong. You have asked for clips showing other using their approach in sparring. I submit you show the same thing. There is one caveat though, since you guys don't use applications or techniques nor do you train to use such, I would like to see a clip of any of your guys fighting and wining without the use of a single "application".

    I won't hold my breath waiting as I know you can't produce anything within those parameters.

    Good Luck!!!
    It seems as if you have joined KPM in his trolling? I hope not.

    The group I train with doesn't release sparring clips for public consumption. Here is a clip from a closely related group:


  11. #11
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    Guy B,

    Believe it or not I am not interested in trolling or even arguing.
    Just seems like there has been a bit of implications that a certain lineage is full of crap.
    Everyone is welcome to their opinion but it is kind of unfair to lump an entire lineage into a specific crap pile.

    If you research my posts you will find that I have been saying for years that each lineage has someone who can make that approach work for them.
    Thus, every approach can be valid.
    I do what I do because I like it and found it worked for my needs.

    I like the forward energy and fairly constant attack in the clip.
    Also would seem to reinforce the idea that a few core methods can be applied fairly well.

    If you prefer to have a discussion offline then feel free to email or PM me.
    Email is probably best to discuss anything of length.
    I can promise to keep anything discussed private if that is your wish.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  12. #12
    A little bit of light sparring in this clip, starts about 1.22


  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Guy B,

    Believe it or not I am not interested in trolling or even arguing.
    Just seems like there has been a bit of implications that a certain lineage is full of crap.
    Everyone is welcome to their opinion but it is kind of unfair to lump an entire lineage into a specific crap pile.
    People can train whatever they like as far as I am concerned. They are not me, I am not them. What they do is their choice. But I will not sugar coat my opinion of training methodologies. If I disagree with them, and you ask me about it, then I will say so. I believe that LFJ is of like mind on this matter. KPM knows this, hence his cynical decision to use TWC as a device to troll the forum. I feel bad about this because I have no particular issue with TWC and and happy if other people are happy doing it. I feel particularly bad that Phil was dragged here, probably due to a message from KPM, and made to feel under attack.

    If you research my posts you will find that I have been saying for years that each lineage has someone who can make that approach work for them.
    Thus, every approach can be valid.
    I don't share your belief that every approach is valid. Truth is not relative and every approach is not equally valuable. I think some MA systems are irredeemably stupid. I wouldn't say so though unless you asked me. But I wouldn't lie if you did.

    I do what I do because I like it and found it worked for my needs
    I don't know what you do but I am glad you are satisfied with it

    I like the forward energy and fairly constant attack in the clip.
    Also would seem to reinforce the idea that a few core methods can be applied fairly well.
    Good, glad it helped

    If you prefer to have a discussion offline then feel free to email or PM me.
    Email is probably best to discuss anything of length.
    I can promise to keep anything discussed private if that is your wish.
    PM any question you want to ask. Would prefer not to give info to KPM. LFJ probably a better source of info than me if you want good technical detail, but I can cover basics.

  14. #14
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    Dave, I don't appreciate being repeatedly referred to as a "troll" for simply trying to carry on a productive discussion as you are doing now. Do we not have any standards in this forum?

  15. #15
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    Back to the topic of training......since martials arts is undoubtedly a skill we are all trying to master, I thought this was another good article:

    https://blog.todoist.com/2015/08/11/...any-new-skill/


    This one is pretty good as well. It describes the stages of skill acquisition:

    http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpt...ll-individuals

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