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Thread: VT ideas at longer range

  1. #31
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    Houston, TX
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    Saying that Wing Tsun doesn't have long range (or ground) game is silly. This just shows certain practitioners lack of understanding and application, their Sifu's lack of ability to teach, or their very flawed training methods.

    Either you can fight, or you can't. Period.

    No concact
    Kicking range
    Punching range
    Trapping/clinch/stand up grappling range
    Ground defense

    We have an answer for all of that.

    I've seen a lot of schools that don't spar and only Chi Sao. They don't mingle with other schools/lineages and they don't cross train with other arts. Therefore they are only functional at that one range that they train. It's not that the system doesn't have it, it's that they don't have it.
    www.TexasWingTsun.com
    IG: @TexasWingTsun
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  2. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    Dahlonega, GA USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bino TWT View Post
    Saying that Wing Tsun doesn't have long range (or ground) game is silly. This just shows certain practitioners lack of understanding and application, their Sifu's lack of ability to teach, or their very flawed training methods.

    Either you can fight, or you can't. Period.

    No concact
    Kicking range
    Punching range
    Trapping/clinch/stand up grappling range
    Ground defense

    We have an answer for all of that.

    I've seen a lot of schools that don't spar and only Chi Sao. They don't mingle with other schools/lineages and they don't cross train with other arts. Therefore they are only functional at that one range that they train. It's not that the system doesn't have it, it's that they don't have it.
    Hello,

    I would have to disagree with you about Wing Tsun/Wing Chun or any other variation including a ground game as a core part of the system.
    While there certainly are principles which could carry over, WT is a stand up fighting method.
    There is no such thing as a "complete" system which can fight at every range, to think that there is could be considered "silly".
    What I mean is that if you enter into trying to grapple without someone who trains that as their core you will get educated.
    WT incorporated Latosa Escrima to add and fill in some gaps. Likewise some have incorporated BJJ into their systems or approaches to help with the ground game.
    Sifu Kernsprecht himeslf has said you "don't try to box a boxer" or "wrestle a wrestler".

    While it is all fine and good to incorporate things into your approach, it is foolhardy to think that someone who trains their ground game almost to exclusion will be easy prey to someone who trains mostly for stand up. This is not to say you could not win, just that it is better to focus on what your system trains for.
    You should never try to out perform someone who is doing their art.

    I would challenge anyone to show any consistent success on the ground, for example, using nothing but WC/WT/VT without having trained in BJJ or Judo or the like.

    Joe Lewis, the karate fighter, trained his strong side almost exclusively with the idea of making it so effective he could blast through anything with his strong side.

    Yes, WC/WT/VT can fight and do so effectively but while it trains concepts the reality is that traditional WT does not have a ground game.
    If it did I would question why I was not taught ground fighting when I trained in it (WT) and also trained at the "castle" in Langenzell?
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  3. #33
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    Apr 2017
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    Houston, TX
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    Wing Tsun is a concept based art. It's all about how you train. Our lineage has always had ground defense. No competition sport grappling like BJJ, but solutions for dealing with an opponent on the ground and getting back to your feet, anti-grappling, takedown defense, etc. The idea is to not be on the ground, and if it does happen, to spend as little time as possible down there. A lot of this is neglected though in a lot of Kwoons, but you should recognize it mostly from the Lat Sao Program Student Grade 5, depending on what was going on while you were at the castle.

    You are correct in that you don't try to wrestle a wrestler, but WT does have solutions for a wrestler. Thing is, we are not limited by his rules. We understand that as a combat/self defense art, you don't want to fool around on the ground, but you do need to be able to handle yourself and have a contingency plan if you do end up on the ground. It's not about trying to outperform them at their own game, as it is defending yourself against their game. I wouldn't recommend boxing a boxer either, although I would recommend cross training and sparring with one to use your WT to develop a solution for a boxer.

    As far as the Escrima goes, a lot of us train it, but separately. It hasn't been integrated to fill in any gaps. (side note: KK did integrate some Jun Fan/JKD techniques and training methods he learned from Jesse Glover into the first 4 student grades of the Lat Sao program.) I started Escrima directly under GM Rene Latosa, but now do Kali Escrima. I have also trained both the EWTO version of WT, and the Hong Kong (IWTA) version of WT. Kernspecht is my Si-Gung, My first Si-Fu was a direct student of KK and a classmate of Emin, and after he came to America he opened an IWTA school and traveled doing seminars with LT. The head of the organization he's with now was an instructor at the castle, but is currently under Martin Hofmann. My current Si-Fu is a student of Tam Yiu Ming now, and has previously trained under Cheng Chuen Fun, Chris Collins, and Salvador Sanchez. The WT anti-grappling and ground defense is present in both the EWTO & IWTA WT.

    That said Sihing73, it's nice to meet another WT practitioner, and yes I'm a little jealous that you got to train at the castle lol. So, that's not just a screen name, you really are my Si-Hing. I will be training directly with Leung Ting in October, so I can check that off my bucket list though.

    I have a video in the WC forum on Fb where I went to the local Gracie Barra BJJ school and handled their instructors with WT on the ground, playing by their rules, so it can be done. Not advisable, but not impossible either.
    www.TexasWingTsun.com
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  4. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Dahlonega, GA USA
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    1,592
    Hello Bino TWT,

    It may not be accurate to consider me a WT practitioner any more. While WT is my core system, I have trained several other lineages as well as Pekiti Tirsia and Malabar Silat. My first "official" Sifu was Roy Undem who was of the Augustine Fong lineage. My current Sifu would be Chung Kwok Chow of NYC.

    Training at the castle was fun. I went to several seminars while I was in Germany, many at the castle. Canít begin to explain how cool it was to train there. Seems like there was a seminar every weekend somewhere in Germany and of course the regular training during the week. Training in Germany was really like being with an extended family. When not in class or a seminar we used to go out to the woods and train and grill. Very very cool.

    Funny story about attending one of the sessions at the castle. It was winter and the roads were snow covered. While leaving the castle I went off the road into a ditch. I walked back up and got Sifu Kernsprecht. He actually was able to lift the back end of my car, a Ford EXP, off the ground about 3 inches and move the back end around. Couldnít get the car out of the ditch, a farmer pulled it out with a tractor, but the fact that he was able to lift it was impressive, even though the engine was in the front. When you are that strong you donít need Wing Tsun, funny thing is he did Chi Sau with such a light touch.

    My primary level certificate lists two Sifu for me, Keith Kernsprecht and Allan Fong. When I returned to the States after Germany I actually got to live with Allan and his family while I worked in NYC some years back. I trained in Germany in 1985 and 86 while stationed there in the Army. I, and Allan, broke from WT around 1990 or 91 due to the politics. I am currently listed as a disciple of Chung Kwok Chow of NYC but have lived in Georgia since 2007. I got my Primary Level in 1987 and was permitted to teach in 1986. The Lat Sau program was pretty new back then and I believe that it was more developed in Germany.

    As to ground fighting, what I was taught was to get back to my feet as quickly as possible. Yes, WT is a conceptual system and you can, in a pinch, utilize those concepts on the ground, but that is not what the system was designed for. We can agree to disagree on this as there is no point in arguing over it. My view is that no system is 100% complete or can handle every possible situation. Having said that, if you understand the concepts behind something you can make it work in many different situations.

    As to Escrima, I personally did not like Latosa and opted to train in Pekiti Tirsia which seemed to fit me better. I was fortunate enough to train with one of Leoís early students and probably one of the best fighters he ever produced, Akmeed Boouraca. I still consider AK a friend and hope to visit him when I go to Philly for Labor Day.

    Regardless, welcome to the forum and I look forward to hearing more from you.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Houston, TX
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    Sihing73, it is a pleasure to meet you brother. I will most definitely have to look you up next time I'm in GA to meet up for some beer, BBQ, and Chi Sao. And of course to hear all of your cool stories!
    www.TexasWingTsun.com
    IG: @TexasWingTsun
    FB & YT: Texas Wing Tsun

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Dayton,Ohio,U.S.A.
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    662
    Why not just use wing chun kicks at long range ?

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Firehawk4 View Post
    Why not just use wing chun kicks at long range ?
    👍
    I agree.

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