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Thread: Why vertical fist?

  1. #1

    Why vertical fist?

    VT uses a vertical fist. Looking around the internet there are a lot of ideas about why this might be the case.

    Why does your VT use a vertical fist?

  2. #2
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    If you want your elbow down the options are vertical or palm-up.
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    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  3. #3
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    Slightly OT

    I wrote an article on the vertical fist (or sun fist) some years ago, but it was in a different context. See How Chinese Calligraphy Can Improve Your Kung Fu.
    Gene Ching
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    If you want your elbow down the options are vertical or palm-up.
    Yes, the elbow is the reason for the vertical fist. Why do you want the elbow down in your VT?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    I wrote an article on the vertical fist (or sun fist) some years ago, but it was in a different context. See How Chinese Calligraphy Can Improve Your Kung Fu.
    Interesting, thanks

  6. #6
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    From Gene's article:

    The meaning of this character has no connection with the sun fist. It's just the shape.
    The middle stroke indicates which way the fingers are oriented, and the overall shape resembles a sun fist.
    This sounds like half an explanation.

    Why use the character for sun versus the character for eye ?

    You have enough strokes in the eye character to lay over all four fingers and outline the knuckles, if going for overall shape.

    For VT, it's because we are striking with the bottom three knuckles. That's why we use the sun character.


  7. #7
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    Got me there, LFJ

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Why use the character for sun versus the character for eye ?
    I have no idea. I didn't make that up. It's a term that's bandied about in the southern Chinese Kung Fu circles. Maybe it rhymed with something in some quanpu?
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    From Gene's article:



    This sounds like half an explanation.

    Why use the character for sun versus the character for eye ?

    You have enough strokes in the eye character to lay over all four fingers and outline the knuckles, if going for overall shape.

    For VT, it's because we are striking with the bottom three knuckles. That's why we use the sun character.

    Excellent explanation

  9. #9
    So back to the elbow- why is it important to keep the elbow down in VT?

    No wrong answers, opinions welcome

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    So back to the elbow- why is it important to keep the elbow down in VT?

    No wrong answers, opinions welcome
    I'm thinking it has to do with keeping it close to/near the hip since the two work together in the natural human power chain linkage?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    I'm thinking it has to do with keeping it close to/near the hip since the two work together in the natural human power chain linkage?
    This is one reason. The other is the use of the elbow in the VT punch, allowing simultaneous attack and defence.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    Why do you want the elbow down in your VT?
    You don't want your elbow joint to be "cracked".

    Most CMA systems emphasize that punch should never be a straight line. All straight punches should include arm and fist twisting. That twisting does add in extra power because the twisting path is longer than the straight line path.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-03-2017 at 12:15 AM.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    You don't want your elbow joint to be "cracked"
    How do you mean?

    Most CMA systems emphasize that punch should never be a straight line. All straight punches should include arm and fist twisting. That twisting does add in extra power because the twisting path is longer than the straight line path.
    The discussion is about the punch in VT? VT punch does not twist.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by guy b.; 07-03-2017 at 04:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    How do you mean?
    When your opponent punches, if you use one arm to strike on his wrist, use another arm to strike on his elbow joint, you can put pressure on his elbow joint if his elbow joint is pointing side way. If his elbow joint is pointing downward, his elbow joint won't feel that pressure. This is why in CMA, the

    - vertical fist is called Yin fist.
    - horizontal fist is called Yang fist.

    Again, it a trade off between safety and power.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Again, it a trade off between safety and power.
    I don't agree significant power is being traded off. It's a matter of correct training for punching power, which is a primary focus of VT.

    I don't think that's a realistic threat, anyway. So, that's not the reason we use elbow-down punches in VT.

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