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Thread: Wing Chun and Jiu Jitsu and why you should cross train

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  1. #1

    Wing Chun and Jiu Jitsu and why you should cross train

    I wanted to post a PSA that is probably going to make some people upset but is sorely underrepresented in the WC community.

    I trained Wing Chun for around 4 years, and then due to scheduling moved onto Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I was used to sparring WC practitioners and my striking was pretty on point, but when I would spar guys with grappling experience I would almost immediately get taken down and submitted. WC has zero grappling defense, regardless of what you've seen on youtube, and puts you a lot closer to a grappler than you'd ever want to be. Nothing in WC helps you naturally defend takedowns, and no video is going to help either.

    After 4 years in BJJ I've seen there's a good balance between both arts. WC gets you close enough with striking to be able to initiate a take-down when (not if) things get messy. I've found the WC/BJJ combo works well against people who do Muay Thai / BJJ. You will need the takedown, there's no if's and's or but's about it. Check out the full contact WC sparring videos on youtube to see how often they naturally flail to the ground or clinch after things get messy. Having the grappling base also lets you set up your striking better, because you can close the possible openings your opponent has to take you down.

    Cross training WC is vital if you want it to be effective, and I think a lot of people get blinded to that because WC is heavy on the "we are the truth and you don't need anything else" mantra. If you do WC and have no grappling experience you will lose a fight with a grappler. I cannot overstate that you will get your ass thoroughly handed to you in very short order. Arguing otherwise is both foolish and dangerous, because the only people arguing otherwise have never really tested their skills under pressure with a grappler.

    I was inclined to post this after a WC student who had been training for 6+ years showed up at the place where I train to check out BJJ. We sparred and the longest he made it without getting taken down and submitted was about 90 seconds. Average was around 45 seconds. He quit WC and is now doing BJJ full time. Even people with under a year of BJJ experience and no striking skills wrecked him, because WC naturally leads to a clinch which is a grappler's home turf.

    I'm not trying to start a flame war, just wanted to give a reality check for people who think WC will save them in any situation. More and more people are learning grappling every day, so be smart and cross train. If you feel like pointing out how wrong I am because _____ then first step out of your comfort zone and test your WC under pressure to see what you're really prepared for. Most MMA schools have free open mats that welcome students of all disciplines to come in and spar. Give it a shot.
    Last edited by Miguel; 11-28-2017 at 11:52 AM.
    learn->practice->habit->reflex->instinct

  2. #2
    You are 100% correct. I trained WC for a brief time, roughly 3 years, and then switched to BJJ and Kyokushin. I got tired of the out of shape dudes that never ever spared acting like Bruce Lee. I am not trying to start a flame war, but every time I see WC one Instagram its an out of shape fat guy doing chi sou, and explaining how to control an opponent. If I am that close to you, your getting taken down, period.

  3. #3
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    Bruce recognized and talked about covering all ranges of combat ~5 decades ago. It took a lot of time for people to listen, but things have changed dramatically with the advent of MMA in mainstream culture.

    It has been shown over and over again on TV for everybody to see since the 1990's that lack of ground game leads to an almost instant lost when dealing with people that know what to do in this arena. Whether everybody you meet in a sporadic street encounter knows grappling is a different question, but fact is that being well rounded requires you to learn proper grappling methods (no pseudo-grappling that people claim being there in Ving Tsun forms).

    Now, becoming good in multiple fighting methods requires a good amount of time. But I think that in the long run, you do yourself good service to at least dabble a bit in grappling.

    P.S.: Miguel, hope all is well!
    Dio perdona... Io no!

  4. #4
    I do wing chun. I do fine against grapplers and jj people.
    Depends on the quality of your wing chun instruction
    and practice.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    I do wing chun. I do fine against grapplers and jj people.
    Depends on the quality of your wing chun instruction
    and practice.
    And the quality of your grapplers and jj people!
    Dio perdona... Io no!

  6. #6
    I practice WC and my Sifu concentrates on ground game as well as stand up. That was the way his grand father taught him and the way he teaches us. Remember study as much as you can from all styles not just bjj or WC. Tai chi, chin na are great also to go along with WC.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    I do wing chun. I do fine against grapplers and jj people.
    Depends on the quality of your wing chun instruction
    and practice.
    Do you categorize based upon perception or engagement? Good to see you.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha_Fist View Post
    Bruce recognized and talked about covering all ranges of combat ~5 decades ago. It took a lot of time for people to listen, but things have changed dramatically with the advent of MMA in mainstream culture.

    It has been shown over and over again on TV for everybody to see since the 1990's that lack of ground game leads to an almost instant lost when dealing with people that know what to do in this arena. Whether everybody you meet in a sporadic street encounter knows grappling is a different question, but fact is that being well rounded requires you to learn proper grappling methods (no pseudo-grappling that people claim being there in Ving Tsun forms).

    Now, becoming good in multiple fighting methods requires a good amount of time. But I think that in the long run, you do yourself good service to at least dabble a bit in grappling.

    P.S.: Miguel, hope all is well!

    What's up Emil, long time no see! Hopefully we can have lunch soon
    learn->practice->habit->reflex->instinct

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    I do wing chun. I do fine against grapplers and jj people.
    Depends on the quality of your wing chun instruction
    and practice.
    I have friends who train near you. Please post or message me a date range for when you would like one to stop by so that you can demonstrate on video.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    A lot of their challenge language sounded a lot like those posts previously on this thread.
    The challenge language is "come test your skill and back up what you claim works." The reason behind it is that many martial arts make unrealistic claims like "this one art is gospel" and "defending grapplers depends on the quality of your WC instruction." If stuff works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't. If you never challenge yourself you'll never know. It's not about growing ego it's about losing ego.

    So if u got the time the zhoo zhitsu lifestyle no interrupt your wing chun. If not no worry bout it.

    K?

    K.
    If anyone wants to test the accuracy of "If not no worry bout it" then if they're not near socal I will find a BJJ person in their area to spar on video.

    To clarify I love WC and I feel it does well against other striking arts, but it's important for people to be realistic about its limitations. The truth is "If not then worry about it." If someone who doesn't cross train feels the reality is different then it is important that we get a video of them demonstrating it instead of typing empty words into a computer.
    Last edited by Miguel; 01-18-2018 at 03:52 PM.
    learn->practice->habit->reflex->instinct

  10. #10
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    Hey Guys,

    Here is a recent video of our work here in Lille. We cross train a bit in BJJ and Grappling. It's great fun and it improves your overall fighting ability a hundred fold.


  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel View Post
    ....
    Cross training WC is vital if you want it to be effective, and I think a lot of people get blinded to that because WC is heavy on the "we are the truth and you don't need anything else" mantra. If you do WC and have no grappling experience you will lose a fight with a grappler. I cannot overstate that you will get your ass thoroughly handed to you in very short order. Arguing otherwise is both foolish and dangerous, because the only people arguing otherwise have never really tested their skills under pressure with a grappler.
    ...
    So I teach at a BJJ school on Friday nights. This observation seems subjective. There's 12-14 year old girls in my class.

    I was inclined to post this after a WC student who had been training for 6+ years showed up at the place where I train to check out BJJ. We sparred and the longest he made it without getting taken down and submitted was about 90 seconds. Average was around 45 seconds. He quit WC and is now doing BJJ full time. Even people with under a year of BJJ experience and no striking skills wrecked him, because WC naturally leads to a clinch which is a grappler's home turf.
    Sorry that happened. Were there sparring rules?

    I'm not trying to start a flame war, just wanted to give a reality check for people who think WC will save them in any situation. More and more people are learning grappling every day, so be smart and cross train. If you feel like pointing out how wrong I am because _____ then first step out of your comfort zone and test your WC under pressure to see what you're really prepared for. Most MMA schools have free open mats that welcome students of all disciplines to come in and spar. Give it a shot.
    I'm with you on the MMA open mats, BJJ school open mats, etc. Sheesh I keep trying to get people to come to open mats - even tell them it's free when I'm teaching whenever. Try it it's fun even if you're a noob.

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