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Thread: Does your style have any of these moves?

  1. #1
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    Does your style have any of these moves?

    In his book The Shaolin Monastery (2008), Meir Shahar presents a poem from Journey to the West (1592) in which describes unarmed combat between Sun Wukong and a rhinoceros demon. Shahar notes that it contains common Ming dynasty martial arts jargon. I was wondering if any practitioners here recognize any of the named moves from your own style. If you do recognize the names, I'm interested in learning what the technique, especially those with the more esoteric names, entails. I know the Guanyin palm is listed among the 72 Shaolin arts. I also believe the four levels posture is among those of Taiji.

    Opening wide the “Four Levels Posture”;
    The double-kicking feet fly up.
    They pound the ribs and chests;
    They stab at galls and hearts.
    “The Immortal pointing the Way”;
    “Lao Zi Riding the Crane”;
    “A Hungry Tiger Pouncing on the Prey” is most hurtful;
    “A Dragon Playing with Water” is quite vicious.
    The demon king uses a “Serpent Turning Around”;
    The Great Sage employs a “Deer Letting Loose its Horns.”
    The dragon plunges to Earth with heels upturned;
    The wrist twists around to seize Heaven’s bag.
    Fist Fighting and Self-Cultivation
    A green lion’s open-mouthed lunge;
    A carp’s snapped-back flip.
    Sprinkling flowers over the head;
    Tying a rope around the waist;
    A fan moving with the wind;
    The rain driving down the flowers.
    The monster-spirit then uses the “Guanyin Palm,”
    And pilgrim counters with the “Arhat Feet.”
    The “Long-Range Fist,” stretching, is more slack, of course.
    How could it compare with the “Close-Range Fist’s” sharp jabs?
    The two of them fought for many rounds—
    None was the stronger, for they are evenly matched

  2. #2
    Well I have a few but not all are unarmed:

    “The Immortal pointing the Way” is in a jian form called Dragon Shape Sword

    “Serpent Turning Around” there is a bagua/silk reeling exercise called "Serpent entwines the body"

    "Dragon Playing with Water" could be "Dragon splashes palms" from Hung Gar dragon set

    that's about all I got.

  3. #3
    Greetings,

    I think the onus is upon Meir Shahar to show what the moves are since since he recognizes them as "common Ming dynasty martial arts jargon". I consider remarks like that, without back up (i.e, without exposition as to what the techniques look like) and given the seriousness of the work, to be shockingly flippant.


    mickey

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Paximus View Post
    Well I have a few but not all are unarmed:

    “The Immortal pointing the Way” is in a jian form called Dragon Shape Sword

    “Serpent Turning Around” there is a bagua/silk reeling exercise called "Serpent entwines the body"

    "Dragon Playing with Water" could be "Dragon splashes palms" from Hung Gar dragon set

    that's about all I got.
    Thank you for the reply. Very interesting. Since the fight is unarmed, it's possible "The Immortal pointing the way" is a finger attack aimed at the eyes. What do you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    Greetings,

    I think the onus is upon Meir Shahar to show what the moves are since since he recognizes them as "common Ming dynasty martial arts jargon". I consider remarks like that, without back up (i.e, without exposition as to what the techniques look like) and given the seriousness of the work, to be shockingly flippant.


    mickey
    These are Shahar's exact words: "When he is deprived of his weapon, the valiant monkey resorts to hand combat, giving the author an opportunity to display his familiarity with the contemporary jargon of 'postures' (shi and jiazi), 'Long-Range Fist' (changquan), and 'Close-Range Fist' (duanquan)".

  5. #5
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    A lot of these are indeed common moves,

    I often look at old QuanPu and there are some common technique names between the many styles.

    However, there is a problem, though there are common names they will sometimes mean something different in different styles.

    Xian Ren Zhi Lu
    Immortal points the way is a common one, it is almost always sword fingers on both hands, front hand points forewards and down slightly, the other hand touches the front hand at the wrist with sword fingers to support it. Stance is a lunge. However there is also a version for every stance, then for Shun, Heng, Xie (side-on, horizontal, diagonal attitudes) etc. So a lot of variation.

    Edit; THe use of XIan Ren Zhi Lu is in the fingers, but you don't strike hard, if you do that you miss, AND break your fingers, you touch the target from close range then suddenly push in really hard from contact. Use the supporting hand to grasp the striking hand at the wrist to enhance push in power. DOne from contact range. Typically at eyes, or throat.

    Carp FLip and laozi riding crane are also common (though often it is laojun 老君, which is anohter way of saying lao zi) Carp flip in modern terms is the flick up from the floor but in old terms is usually a throw over the shoulder. It refers to a carp jumping over the dragon gate, if it succeeds it becomes a dragon.

    The same names are used for weapons as well.

    Four even stance is the standard fighting stance of the style, the neutral stance you always return to, but can be unique to a style. Si Ping Shi. It will have Di, zhong, gao, that is high, medium, low versions. HOWEVER if the Quanpu says La Kai Si Ping Shi (pull out four even stance) then it is often referring to the classic ma bu dan bian, that is horse stance with fists extended to either side, straight arms.

    DOuble kicking feet is ErQiJiao and has 2 meanings, either the knee up then kick on ohter leg, also referred to as Shuang fei yan (double flying swallows) OR it means leaping forwards and lifting each knee in turn to propel you further as a piece of footwork rather than an attack.

    E'Hu pu shi, Hungry tiger pouncing on prey has a LOT of different moves with the same name,

    As does dragon playing with water, usually puking out water.

    Tying the rope around the waist is usually where you do an armlock on the opponent but use your body to lock his arm rather than your arm. So like HIS ARM is the rope and you tie HIS ARM around your waist. This move is in Shaolins popular form Lian Huan Quan, its the pu bu where you turn one way then back the other. Also known as wrap a jade belt around the waist. BUT with weapons it is another technique, it is when you hold the sword to your waist while running away then suddenly turn around and use waist to propel sword back into opponent.


    Any chance of the Chinese characters to be sure? I will cross reference them with my document of Quanpu. But wither way Shahar is correct, these are all common poetic names in old Quan Pu, but the moves are not set in stone.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 02-02-2018 at 06:20 PM.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  6. #6
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    These are all 4 character names by the looks of it, there are usually also 7 character names which give a little more info, here is the Luohan 18 hands poem from Shaolin temple, this is NOT the popular version of the form but a village version;

    轩辕跨虎征蚩尤 - Xuan Yuan Kua Hu Zheng Chi You
    'The yellow emperor rides a tiger to search for the master of blacksmiths'
    仙人指路莫发愁 - Xian Ren Zhi Lu Mo Fa Chou
    'An immortal points the way, there is no need to doubt him'
    回头望月龙摆尾 - Hui Tou Wang Yue Long Bai Wei
    'He travels the extremities of the Earth in his search'
    童子拜佛把路修 - Tong Zi Bai Fo Ba Lu Xiu
    'He prays to buddha to cultivate the road'
    梅广献花扭头看 - Mei Guang Xian Hua Niu Tou Kan
    'He looks around and sees flowers of spring'
    鸿雁展翅知春秋 - Hong Yan Zhan Chi Zhi Chun Qiu
    'A wild goose spreads his wings to signify the passing of summer'
    猿猴摘桃来献果 - Yuan Hou Zhai Tao Lai Xian Guo
    'Monkeys pick the autumn fruit'
    魁星点元占鳌头 - Kui Xing Dian Yuan Zhan Ao Tou
    'The star prince stands upon the turtles head, the Emperor is become the best in his field'
    高祖剑斩百帝子 - Gao Zu Jian Zhan Bai Di Zi
    'just as Gao Zu beheads a hundred rivals'
    王祥卧冰将鱼求 - Wang Xiang Wo Bing Jiang Yu Qiu
    'just as Wang Xiang lies on the ice to prey for a carp to feed his mother'
    燕子汲取长江水 - Yan Zi Ji Qu Chang Jiang Shui
    'just as A swallow drinks from the fast flowing yangtze river'
    鲤鱼翻身跳龙楼 - Li Yu Fan Shen Tiao Long Lou
    'just as A carp jumps over the dragon gate to become a dragon'
    金刚罗汉斗猛虎 - Jing Gang Luo Han Dou Meng Hu
    'And A Vajra Saint struggles with a fierce tiger, so the emperor has overcome his obstacles'
    仙鹤晾翅望九洲 - Xian He Liang Che Wang Jiu Zhou
    'An immortal crane is born and glides across the world'
    悟空束身水帘洞 - Wu Kong Shu Shen Shui Lian Dong
    'The monkey king binds himself in the water curtain cave'
    白蛇吐信神鬼忧 - Bai Shi Tu Xin Shen Gui You
    'The white snake speaks a truth that worries gods and ghosts'
    天师神弹射天狗 - Tian Shi Shen Tan Shi Tian Gou
    'The Celestial Master expels the demons'
    紧那武姿传千秋 - Jin Na Wu Zi Chuan Qian Qiu
    'JinNa's Warlike spirit will transmit for 1000 years'


    anyone want to see this form?

    There are also 14 character names for some forms (not this one) that contain additional information about the application.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 02-02-2018 at 06:01 PM.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    A lot of these are indeed common moves,

    I often look at old QuanPu and there are some common technique names between the many styles.

    However, there is a problem, though there are common names they will sometimes mean something different in different styles.

    Xian Ren Zhi Lu
    Immortal points the way is a common one, it is almost always sword fingers on both hands, front hand points forewards and down slightly, the other hand touches the front hand at the wrist with sword fingers to support it. Stance is a lunge. However there is also a version for every stance, then for Shun, Heng, Xie (side-on, horizontal, diagonal attitudes) etc. So a lot of variation.

    Edit; THe use of XIan Ren Zhi Lu is in the fingers, but you don't strike hard, if you do that you miss, AND break your fingers, you touch the target from close range then suddenly push in really hard from contact. Use the supporting hand to grasp the striking hand at the wrist to enhance push in power. DOne from contact range. Typically at eyes, or throat.

    Carp FLip and laozi riding crane are also common (though often it is laojun 老君, which is anohter way of saying lao zi) Carp flip in modern terms is the flick up from the floor but in old terms is usually a throw over the shoulder. It refers to a carp jumping over the dragon gate, if it succeeds it becomes a dragon.

    The same names are used for weapons as well.

    Four even stance is the standard fighting stance of the style, the neutral stance you always return to, but can be unique to a style. Si Ping Shi. It will have Di, zhong, gao, that is high, medium, low versions. HOWEVER if the Quanpu says La Kai Si Ping Shi (pull out four even stance) then it is often referring to the classic ma bu dan bian, that is horse stance with fists extended to either side, straight arms.

    DOuble kicking feet is ErQiJiao and has 2 meanings, either the knee up then kick on ohter leg, also referred to as Shuang fei yan (double flying swallows) OR it means leaping forwards and lifting each knee in turn to propel you further as a piece of footwork rather than an attack.

    E'Hu pu shi, Hungry tiger pouncing on prey has a LOT of different moves with the same name,

    As does dragon playing with water, usually puking out water.

    Tying the rope around the waist is usually where you do an armlock on the opponent but use your body to lock his arm rather than your arm. So like HIS ARM is the rope and you tie HIS ARM around your waist. This move is in Shaolins popular form Lian Huan Quan, its the pu bu where you turn one way then back the other. Also known as wrap a jade belt around the waist. BUT with weapons it is another technique, it is when you hold the sword to your waist while running away then suddenly turn around and use waist to propel sword back into opponent.


    Any chance of the Chinese characters to be sure? I will cross reference them with my document of Quanpu. But wither way Shahar is correct, these are all common poetic names in old Quan Pu, but the moves are not set in stone.
    Thank you for both of your informative replies. Here are the Chinese characters for the poem:

    拽開大四平,踢起雙飛腳。韜脅劈胸墩,剜心摘膽著。仙人指路,老子騎鶴。餓虎撲食最傷人,蛟龍戲水能兇惡。 魔王使個蟒翻身,大聖卻施鹿解角。翹跟淬地龍,扭腕拿天橐。青獅張口來,鯉魚跌脊躍。蓋頂撒花,遶腰貫索。 迎風貼扇兒,急雨催花落。妖精便使觀音掌,行者就對羅漢腳。長掌開闊自然鬆,怎比短拳多緊削。兩個相持數十 回,一般本事無強弱。

    I would love to see the form you mentioned. I would even like to see a reenactment of the battle described in the poem if the names can be more or less tied to known techniques. If anyone is willing to video tape such a scene, I would embed it in a planned article for my research blog:

    https://journeytothewestresearch.wordpress.com/

    If not that, then pictures from boxing manuals would be great, that way readers can see the techniques.
    Last edited by ghostexorcist; 02-02-2018 at 07:25 PM.

  8. #8
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    It looks like the author/compiler of Journey to the West took some of the poem from the Water Margin.

    拽開大四平,踢起雙飛腳。
    仙人指路,老子騎鶴。
    拗鸞肘出近前心,當頭砲勢侵額角。
    翹跟淬地龍,扭腕擎天橐。
    這邊女子,使個蓋頂撒花;
    這裏男兒,耍個遶腰貫索。
    兩個似迎風貼扇兒,無移時急雨催花落。
    Last edited by ghostexorcist; 02-02-2018 at 08:00 PM.

  9. #9
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    Great, thanks!

    Ok, lets begin with the Shui Hu Zhuan version, this reads more like an old Quan pu.

    FOUR-EVEN STANCE

    拽開大四平 Zhuai kai da si ping, Pull apart big four even, so I have seen to 'pull apart' si ping shi often in Shaolin Quan pu and in this particular phrasing it refers to ma bu dan bian. That is MA bu with fists evenly to both sides, arms straight, shoulder height.

    In an old Hong Quan quan pu 太祖洪拳貴招難, 拉開四平前後展 (La Kai si ping, qian hou zhan) this I know is referring to ma bu dan bian, it is a similar phrasing. This fist is named for its time of creation in the first year of Ming Taizu, the emperor Hong wu so is named Taizu hong quan (1368....supposedly).

    馬步單鞭開四平 (ma bu danbian kai si ping) Another similar iteration.

    Some other versions, all referring to dan bian;

    馬步四平揮雙臂
    馬步四平衡雙拳
    馬步蹲樁四平端
    馬步四平坐椿步,
    馬步四平樁功穩
    左右四平金剛勢,降龍伏虎移泰山

    Interestingly The Si Ping stance with the spear, if you take the spear out of the hands, the stance formed is ma bu dan bian.

    SO I ma fairly certain about the first one.

    DOUBLE KICK

    踢起雙飛腳
    Second Technique, Er Qi Jiao, this is very common terminology and I think not really contested, it is the knee up first then kick on other leg when airbourne, bit like the karate kid crane kick.

    IMMORTAL POINTS THE WAY

    仙人指路 Xian Ren Zhi Lu, Immortal points the way, Ok, so I looked up about 15 different versions of this technique accross many forms, only 2 types exist. The first is a strike with the sword fingers to the opponents eyes, either one hand or two. The second is a back hand slap from below upwards and forwards to the opponents face, using the backs of the fingers to hit the eyes, hand extended fully. Very light, very fast.

    So here we see two techniques but effectively one, to take out the opponents eyes, so the meaning is the same if the method is slightly different. Here is a kou jue, a ryhmed directions for the technique Xian ren zhi lu, It says to pull them back with one arm then strike 'golden scissors fingers' into their eyes.
    口訣:仙人指路過路通, 擒住敵手不放松。用力拉敵向後帶,敵人身體向前傾。
    單手變成金剪指,上步直點敵雙睛。重擊敵人難逃避,仰天倒地跌川平。

    This lines up with my experience well so that I am also pretty certain of this technique. Saying that Xianren zhilu with weapons can be quite different.

    MASTER LAO RIDING A CRANE

    老子騎鶴 Lao zi riding a crane

    Ok I cant find this one. I am familiar with the imagery but as a kung fu technique I don't know it. Since 'qi' to ride is often used as Qi Ma, ride a horse to mean ma bu, or Qi Long, ride a dragon to mean guibu (kneeling step) then I think to ride a crane means to be standing on one leg. So I think this may be another name for Baihe LiangChi, White crane spreads wings, stand on one leg arms spread to the sides (the taiji version of white crane spreads wings as the xu bu stance is known in most styles as Kuahu, to stride a tiger and is not representative of most styles)

    SO I am going to imagine it as white crane spreads wings, were back to the karate kid posture!

    PHOENIX ELBOW, BLOCK HEAD CANON

    拗鸞肘出近前心,當頭砲勢侵額角 Phoenix elbow and guard head canon

    Ok, these are both fairly well known techniques, they are both mentioned in WuBeiZhi amongst other texts. There are lots of surviving versions with pictures of both of these techniques. They also contain SiPing shi similar to the Shaolin one though I suspect this particular version is dan bian instead of the regular fighting stance known as sipingshi. I will try to look for images later. For now here are those techniques;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQJRDfYylP8 at mark 17s, the last move of the first row before turning around is ao luan zhou. This is Xiao Jingang Quan from Shaolin Temple.拗鸞肘出近前心


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ly8gSJM9Y8 The form Chang hu Xin Yi Men, YOu can see Dang Tou Pao at 33s and at 36s and 48s and 1:00 and at 1:19 and 1:30
    In Shaolin and many other northern forms this is done with the elbow spiked right out to the side.當頭砲勢侵額角

    GROUND DRAGON

    翹跟淬地龍 Ok so although I have never seen this exact arangement of characters, I am pretty certain about this one too. At least I know it is in Dancha or pubu.
    雀地龍走下盤找 Here is a common version, Que Di long zou xia pan, this is a shoot of sorts, going for the opponents legs and lower parts using the stance pubu.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6jlEqnZUxw&t at 16-17s the pu bu stance.

    YOu can use it to tackle the opponent or to strike at their groin.

    雀地龍勢下盤走, 雀地龍走地下邊 some other ones

    拳譜曰:
    雀地龍法走下盤,敵人攻在脚跟前。上邊避開敵來勢, 單手摸腿向下穿。
    伸手抓住敵小腿,用力一提半空懸•若遇惡敵臂兩半,小小毛賊扔一邊。

    Some rhymed directions for it. It says to avoid the opponents momentum up high and grab his lower leg then throw him.

    The next ones should be easy enough as well....have to get back to it later
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 02-03-2018 at 12:44 PM.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ghostexorcist View Post
    Thank you for both of your informative replies. Here are the Chinese characters for the poem:

    拽開大四平,踢起雙飛腳。韜脅劈胸墩,剜心摘膽著。仙人指路,老子騎鶴。餓虎撲食最傷人,蛟龍戲水能兇惡。 魔王使個蟒翻身,大聖卻施鹿解角。翹跟淬地龍,扭腕拿天橐。青獅張口來,鯉魚跌脊躍。蓋頂撒花,遶腰貫索。 迎風貼扇兒,急雨催花落。妖精便使觀音掌,行者就對羅漢腳。長掌開闊自然鬆,怎比短拳多緊削。兩個相持數十 回,一般本事無強弱。

    I would love to see the form you mentioned. I would even like to see a reenactment of the battle described in the poem if the names can be more or less tied to known techniques. If anyone is willing to video tape such a scene, I would embed it in a planned article for my research blog:

    https://journeytothewestresearch.wordpress.com/

    If not that, then pictures from boxing manuals would be great, that way readers can see the techniques.
    Demon gets into high 50 50 fighting stance monkey does double kick stepping on his knee. Demon smashes monkey in the chest and monkey counter body punches. Demon pokes eye monkey grabs arm and climbs on demon. Demon smashes monkey to ground and digs thumb into his eyes, monkey does back roll sacrifice throw. Demon sumersaults over monkey from side mount and monkey stands up and does spinning back elbow. Demon dodge with low weave and punch groin monkey does wrist lock forcing demon down, demon does ankle pick, monkey kicks with other leg. Head grab and waist dodge, slap and another dodge. Strong palm strike counter by strong sweep, long range punches countered by face cutting short strikes

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    Demon gets into high 50 50 fighting stance monkey does double kick stepping on his knee. Demon smashes monkey in the chest and monkey counter body punches. Demon pokes eye monkey grabs arm and climbs on demon. Demon smashes monkey to ground and digs thumb into his eyes, monkey does back roll sacrifice throw. Demon sumersaults over monkey from side mount and monkey stands up and does spinning back elbow. Demon dodge with low weave and punch groin monkey does wrist lock forcing demon down, demon does ankle pick, monkey kicks with other leg. Head grab and waist dodge, slap and another dodge. Strong palm strike counter by strong sweep, long range punches countered by face cutting short strikes
    Cool! That pretty much sums it up in one! Seems about right. I like that laozi riding a crane is climbing on the opponent, perhaps to throw them or headlock them, that is certainly a monkey like technique and goes with the name.

    I think what is emphasized here is that the technique name refers to the overall meaning of the technique rather than the specific stance. So Xianrenzhilu, poke the eyes could be done rear hand, front hand, on the floor, in any stance and still have the same name.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  12. #12
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    Twist Heavenly Sack
    扭腕擎天橐


    Ok this is a difficult one, I cant find the name but it is descriptive.

    Our questions should be is it talking about twisting your opponents wrists or your own?
    What is the heavenly sack?

    I cannot find a reference to it, but my conjecture is this; That the heaven sack is a name for the bag of winds that the chinese wind god holds. It is a bag that opens at both ends and you must hold both ends closed to contain the wind. The Japanese god Fujin uses the same imagery.
    Name:  Taiyuin-Fujin-Dsc3719.jpg
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    So it is saying to twist the wind sack and lift it up just like the god.

    To me this has several possibilities, but it seems clearer if you look at the sequence of events. The opponent has just attcked your groin and is in pubu. Becasue of the angle this is very hard to block and is best avoided by pulling hips up and back so leaning your body forwards and bending over double.

    So in this situation the opponent is in pubu beneath you and you are above them bent over, his head is by your chest. What do you do?

    Well I imagine grasp his head. So the wording fo the technique then presents 3 possibilites

    1. Grasp both ears and twist in opposite directions, this is a monkey style technique and can be done crossways, one hand behind his head the other accross his face, then grab the ears and twist his head.

    2. Grab the clothes of his collar and strangle him by twisting your wrists.

    3. choke him by grasping his throat in a headlock, twist your wrists and raist up to choke harder.

    So this is conjecture. The other possibility is it is simply a wrist lock as Bawang asserts above.

    SCATTER FLOWERS OVERHEAD
    使個蓋頂撒花 Gai ding sa hua


    So the next techique is to scatter flowers over the head
    Here is a similar move in Shaolin, it says to arrange flowers over the head, I am confident it is the same technique. 插花蓋頂回身蛑 Cha Hua Gai Ding, just a different word order and uses arrange instead of scatter.

    Basically it is another name for the technique Suang Yun Ding (double cloud over the peak) HEre we can retunr to Dahongquan and see the tehcnique;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6jlEqnZUxw

    It is the flourishing the hands above the head displayed at 19s and 35s and 1.00 and 1.04-1.05. It is a general purpose technique it can be used for blocking, twisting the opponetns arm and generally releasing yourself from the combat.

    It hink in this situation the girl is freeing herself and they are separating from each other.

    This makes sense if my conjecture on the previous technique was correct. The girl used pubu to attack his groin, he grabs her head, she uses the scatter flowers to release herslef and pull away.

    WRAP AROUND THE WAIST
    遶腰貫索 Rao yao guan suo


    Ok so I dont know on this one. MY initial conjecture was that this was an armlock technique however seeing the wording I am not sure, I am not sure of the english translation.

    MY intuition based on the idea that the girl has just escaped with a flourish over the head, is that this techniqe pushes her away then leaves the hand in a gurad and does a circling step prowling around as the fighters have now separated. A bit like a bagua circular step
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qJKLi-Aj0
    43s -- 51s like this, That is my intuition, but I dont know.

    So I think the two separate and circle each other for a moment.

    This is emphasized in the next line
    兩個似迎風貼扇兒,無移時急雨催花落。
    Both face each other like an iron fan against the wind, a moment of rest from the urgent rain.

    OR something to that effect, SO what is happening is they have fought a round then they separate and look at each other, so this line I think is not describing techniques but rather the way they face each other.


    IRON FAN AGAINST THE WIND
    迎風貼扇

    HOWEVER 迎風貼扇 Ying feng tie shan zi, iron fan agaisnt the wind as it happens is a common technique in its own right.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9_ySM04oRw
    See it here art 20s and again at 1.04, hands crossed projected out, typically as a harsh interception of the opponents hands rather than a regular strike or block.


    So of the Shui Hu Zhuan techniques we are pretty sure of a lot of them! The red are moves I have a high degree of confidence are the same moves today.

    拽開大四平,踢起雙飛腳。
    仙人指路
    ,老子騎鶴。
    拗鸞肘出近前心,當頭砲勢侵額角。
    翹跟淬地龍,
    扭腕擎天橐。
    這邊女子,使個蓋頂撒花;
    這裏男兒,耍個遶腰貫索。
    兩個似迎風貼扇兒,無移時急雨催花落

    So there are only 3 techniques we are not sure about, riding a crane, twisting heavens sack, rope around the waist.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 02-04-2018 at 11:57 AM.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    Demon gets into high 50 50 fighting stance monkey does double kick stepping on his knee. Demon smashes monkey in the chest and monkey counter body punches. Demon pokes eye monkey grabs arm and climbs on demon. Demon smashes monkey to ground and digs thumb into his eyes, monkey does back roll sacrifice throw. Demon sumersaults over monkey from side mount and monkey stands up and does spinning back elbow. Demon dodge with low weave and punch groin monkey does wrist lock forcing demon down, demon does ankle pick, monkey kicks with other leg. Head grab and waist dodge, slap and another dodge. Strong palm strike counter by strong sweep, long range punches countered by face cutting short strikes
    Thank you for your insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Twist Heavenly Sack
    扭腕擎天橐


    Ok this is a difficult one, I cant find the name but it is descriptive.

    Our questions should be is it talking about twisting your opponents wrists or your own?
    What is the heavenly sack?

    I cannot find a reference to it, but my conjecture is this; That the heaven sack is a name for the bag of winds that the chinese wind god holds. It is a bag that opens at both ends and you must hold both ends closed to contain the wind. The Japanese god Fujin uses the same imagery.
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    So it is saying to twist the wind sack and lift it up just like the god.

    To me this has several possibilities, but it seems clearer if you look at the sequence of events. The opponent has just attcked your groin and is in pubu. Becasue of the angle this is very hard to block and is best avoided by pulling hips up and back so leaning your body forwards and bending over double.

    So in this situation the opponent is in pubu beneath you and you are above them bent over, his head is by your chest. What do you do?

    Well I imagine grasp his head. So the wording fo the technique then presents 3 possibilites

    1. Grasp both ears and twist in opposite directions, this is a monkey style technique and can be done crossways, one hand behind his head the other accross his face, then grab the ears and twist his head.

    2. Grab the clothes of his collar and strangle him by twisting your wrists.

    3. choke him by grasping his throat in a headlock, twist your wrists and raist up to choke harder.

    So this is conjecture. The other possibility is it is simply a wrist lock as Bawang asserts above.

    SCATTER FLOWERS OVERHEAD
    使個蓋頂撒花 Gai ding sa hua


    So the next techique is to scatter flowers over the head
    Here is a similar move in Shaolin, it says to arrange flowers over the head, I am confident it is the same technique. 插花蓋頂回身蛑 Cha Hua Gai Ding, just a different word order and uses arrange instead of scatter.

    Basically it is another name for the technique Suang Yun Ding (double cloud over the peak) HEre we can retunr to Dahongquan and see the tehcnique;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6jlEqnZUxw

    It is the flourishing the hands above the head displayed at 19s and 35s and 1.00 and 1.04-1.05. It is a general purpose technique it can be used for blocking, twisting the opponetns arm and generally releasing yourself from the combat.

    It hink in this situation the girl is freeing herself and they are separating from each other.

    This makes sense if my conjecture on the previous technique was correct. The girl used pubu to attack his groin, he grabs her head, she uses the scatter flowers to release herslef and pull away.

    WRAP AROUND THE WAIST
    遶腰貫索 Rao yao guan suo


    Ok so I dont know on this one. MY initial conjecture was that this was an armlock technique however seeing the wording I am not sure, I am not sure of the english translation.

    MY intuition based on the idea that the girl has just escaped with a flourish over the head, is that this techniqe pushes her away then leaves the hand in a gurad and does a circling step prowling around as the fighters have now separated. A bit like a bagua circular step
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qJKLi-Aj0
    43s -- 51s like this, That is my intuition, but I dont know.

    So I think the two separate and circle each other for a moment.

    This is emphasized in the next line
    兩個似迎風貼扇兒,無移時急雨催花落。
    Both face each other like an iron fan against the wind, a moment of rest from the urgent rain.

    OR something to that effect, SO what is happening is they have fought a round then they separate and look at each other, so this line I think is not describing techniques but rather the way they face each other.


    IRON FAN AGAINST THE WIND
    迎風貼扇

    HOWEVER 迎風貼扇 Ying feng tie shan zi, iron fan agaisnt the wind as it happens is a common technique in its own right.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9_ySM04oRw
    See it here art 20s and again at 1.04, hands crossed projected out, typically as a harsh interception of the opponents hands rather than a regular strike or block.


    So of the Shui Hu Zhuan techniques we are pretty sure of a lot of them! The red are moves I have a high degree of confidence are the same moves today.

    拽開大四平,踢起雙飛腳。
    仙人指路
    ,老子騎鶴。
    拗鸞肘出近前心,當頭砲勢侵額角。
    翹跟淬地龍,
    扭腕擎天橐。
    這邊女子,使個蓋頂撒花;
    這裏男兒,耍個遶腰貫索。
    兩個似迎風貼扇兒,無移時急雨催花落

    So there are only 3 techniques we are not sure about, riding a crane, twisting heavens sack, rope around the waist.
    Amazing work! Is it possible that the heavenly sack move is a groin attack? That's the first thing to comes to my twisted mind. If not that, the imagery of the sack brings to mind a torture rack from wrestling.

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    But I'm sure that is just a coincidence and doesn't really sound like something that would have been used in a battle between a man and woman (per the poem's combatants). I find reconstructing these poems so absolutely interesting. I wonder if both poems have a common source, or if one borrowed from the other. I know the head cannon technique is mentioned in General Qi Jiguang's boxing manual, but that is the only one that I know of.

    I just wish I had access to old quanpu so I could associate each named technique with pictures. I love using lots of pictures in my blog articles.

  14. #14
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    Serpent Turning Around appears to be a Bagua technique (or at least one that was later enveloped by the style).

    https://read01.com/ePkQ6K2.html#.Wnrdcq6WaR0

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostexorcist View Post
    I just wish I had access to old quanpu so I could associate each named technique with pictures. I love using lots of pictures in my blog articles.
    This is quite funny, the techniques Dang Tou Pao 當頭砲 and Ao Luan Zhou 抝鸞肘 just happen to appear right next to each other in WuBeiZhi, in fact on the same printed block. So the author just read these straight out of one of the military compilation manuals around at the time. It cant be a coincidence that the same wording is used AND that they appear on the same page opposing one another.

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    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

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