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Thread: What is your own theory of internal Martial Arts?

  1. #31
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    Okay. For the first "level" of the exercise you stand in a bow stance with your P'eng arm forward. Your partner runs at you from about 5 feet away or so, and pushes with both hands on your arm. You must use a fa-jing shake to bounce him away. The trick is that the force cannot go straight into him as this violates Taiji principles, and you must keep you back bowed and absorb the shock and send it to the ground so that you don't fall over. The shaking of the body causes the force to scatter, and because the shake thrusts your arm forward as well, he will lift off his feet a bit and go backward a bit. It's a bit like if you have a bicycle on its side and the front wheel is spinning. If you try to push straight in, your hands go flying off to the side.

    It's the same with Ji. And in the third part, both partners stand still facing each other. Both P'eng arms meet at the wrist, and the other hand strikes the forearm near the elbow. Again, the force does not go straight forward, but a little to the side. If your right P'eng is forward, the force goes in a line sort of from your left hip to his left shoulder. It's like doing Lu and Ji from the form.

    The exercise is not to teach any special techniques or anything. It just teaches you to brace up, get in there and fight. It just helps to raise the Yang energy. On top of that, the contact is rather hard, and conditions the forearms. One of the difficult things is to maintain your rootedness and not fall over. If anything technique-wise is learned from them, they would teach how to barge into a fairly overwhelming attack before he hits you and strike with P'eng, Ji, or An.

    After training in methods like this, the tendency becomes to just barge into an attacker's space a split second after he even moves and strike. Some people look at people doing this and say that they moved before the attacker even threw a punch, but the Classics tell us "when he makes the slightest move, you move."

    So anyway, it's not bouncing or stopping "power," it's just teaching us how to get in there and fight, and whether you just shake him up or send him flying doesn't matter.

  2. #32
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    Bamboo Leaf. We do it, we just call it something different. Your letting the guy fall into your root. Then you borrow his power and return it to him. This is the video where Chen Man Ching is throwing a young William CC Chen backword about 20 feet. I think the shake is what's throwing the idea off. We have a more whipping type power at the end. I think what Sam is describing is more like a shocking energy, or maybe a shudder. Like something you'd expect to see out of the Hakka styles. Intriguing. Sam, any thoughts?
    I have no idea what WD is talking about.--Royal Dragon

  3. #33

    Wink

    Thanks, Sam and Water Dragon,

    I think I really understand what looks very different in my viewpoint and experience at this time.

    Sam , thanks for takeing time to make it more clear, opened a few things in my mind.

    Water Dragon I can understand that use.
    enjoy life

  4. #34
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    Bamboo leaf if u wanna learn about stopping, bouncing power and all that i suggest u get the book Tai Chi Classics translated b Waysun Liao. It's a pretty cool book and it explains a lot of what ur looking for
    - "Why should the marathon go to the swift? Or the jumble to the quick witted? Because god gave them their GIFTS? Well I say CHEATING is the gift man gives himself!" - Monty Burns

  5. #35
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    Blacktaoist,

    "If you had two friends that ask you to teach them internal Martial Arts. One of your friends just wanted to learn Chi Kung to increase his health and vitality,and the other friend wanted to learn how to fight with the internal Martial arts. "

    I don't cover chi gung as something separate, as I study tai chi and you get the increased health and vitality as well as a fighting martial art.

    So I would teach both the same. I would start by describing internal strength in terms like Mike Sigman (ground path). I tend to use both this and the chi paradigm interchangably, so I would use both to describe. We would work on basic centering, balancing, and relaxing. We would work on static tests for ground path - pushing hip, shoulder, elbow, and eventually the hands. Work on getting the body to work as an intergrated whole. We would practice a couple basic standing chi gongs to get the body connections and relaxation...try standing 15 minutes without tensing or tiring - working up to 15 of course. We would apply the internal strength concepts as we learn the old style Yang tai chi form (one with leaping kicks and explosive punches later in the form).

    Once the basic idea of using the body and groundpath is grasped, I would say practice it all day everyday. When you lift a coffee cup, when you turn a doorknob, when you flush the toilet, everthing. In this way you are making this different way to move a habit. When you know longer have to think about the path and individual parts of the body, we would start going abstract. Much of the classics sound like the abstractions I use, but before you learn what you are trying to do - I find the abstractions are useless. In abstractions, we would play with movementum and balance to a finer degree. At some point we may play with some of the exercises in Chen Style to learn the coiling and releasing...this is one of the key abstractions IMO.

    Eventually we would do push hands, chi sou, applications, sparring, etc. But this is just an intro on how I would start their training.
    ~ Eric Putkonen
    (Teaching Tai Chi Chuan in Plymouth, Minnesota)

  6. #36
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    Water Dragon,
    Exactly! Shock/shudder.

  7. #37
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    My approuch is to teach both the same way, as has already been said with one exception, the one that want's to learn Qi-Gong only, I wouldn't make spar also in the fundamental stage I would add more time to certain components of the fundamentels.
    Ex:
    Every one that learns from me begins with The Embrace posture,
    With the Qi-Man, I might make him do San Choy It depends on his desire. They have to stand 1hour period for 100 days.
    The Qi-man will then begin reversed breathing while the fighter will stay at natural breathing for at lest another 3 months.
    By the 6th month I would begin teaching the Qi-man the 12 meridian Qi-Gong as well as the 12 Guilding Light Qi-Gong.
    The fighter would now learn reversed breathing which will enhance his feeling Chi in the 8 mother palms.

    It's really all a matter of the individual. I've learned from quit a few teachers over time and I learned that every thing is not good for everyone. Attention must be paid to the development of the student and what works for that student.
    They learn the same thing with different emphasis.
    that's all

    By the way, In truth you really can't write a short responce to this question, it requiers a bit more in particulars that we'd each end up writting a book.

    Peace
    Maoshan

  8. #38
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    whoah moashan u sound like a sifu. how powerful is ur jing or tan tien?
    - "Why should the marathon go to the swift? Or the jumble to the quick witted? Because god gave them their GIFTS? Well I say CHEATING is the gift man gives himself!" - Monty Burns

  9. #39
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    Great detail can't be given because great detail wasn't given. In general, They would both learn Dish Washing first~. Qigong type as you indicate, would get to stand. Internal~ Fighter type might learn vacuum cleaning.

    This would only be after perhaps years of comprehension from talks we had in being friends, integrating my comprehensions and perceptions with the things a person experiences and goes through mentally, Heartily and daily~.

    I No_Know
    There are four lights... impulse...all donations can be sent at PayPal.com to qumpreyndweth@juno.com; vurecords.com

  10. #40
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    Originally posted by shaolinboxer
    "I teach, you learn. "

    Is it such a one way street?

    with an attitude like that, it most certainly IS a one way street:

    I learn, the teaching bounces off the student's ego without having any effect whatsoever.

  11. #41

    Lightbulb Pet Theory!

    In the old days Taiji masters could bounce grains of rice all the way up to the ceiling by dan tien action as a sign of their internal power.

    I think that if you can launch a grain up rice 7 feet up in the air, then you have enough dan tien power to launch a bullet at your enemies from your dan tien!

    I propose that we surgically embed a firing pin in the very deepest recesses of the belly button, and then select a bullet size that is appropriate for the person and pack it into the belly button - ready for action!

    People with big "outties" could have a .44 magnum in their belly button, dainty women with little tiny "innies" would have a .22. Folks who are kind of fat, and have a deep, long belly button channel could load a rifle cartridge.

    When the bad guy comes near, our hero can defeat him without raising a hand - they only need to suck in dan tien, aim the firing pin at the back of the bullet and give a mighty "heng...HA! BANG!!!" and firing the bullet into the evildoer!

    The beauty of this is that it works for standing "heng...HA! BANG!" and is even more devastating if your opponent is a Jujitsu master and pulls you down to the ground and wraps their legs lovingly around you. Just when they think they have you in the classic mount position "heng...HA! BANG!" Point blank - right into a very tender part of the anatomy!

    I have no doubt that ancient masters knew about this - guys like Yang ChengFu and Wang ShuJin could probably hide a howitzer shell in their belly buttons - who would know?

    Of course, not everyone is capable of such great internal power. And clearly, some would rather just cultivate their qi.

    If you just want to cultivate your qi, then I would follow what a Taiji instructor once told me - "go jogging". Jogging develops a lot of qi - it just doesn't do that much to circulate it. So you could have them do standing to focus their qi, and then relax their body so that the channels open up.

    If jogging isn't mystical enough, you could have them dress up in a silly silk uniform, jog around in a circle for 8 steps, turn around and repeat. Remeber that delivery is everything, so speak in an asian accent, calling it "Bagua Circle Jogging".

    Give it a try - go jogging or bike riding, and then, at the end, stop to do some standing...

    For fighting - if they don't want the bullet in the belly button approach, then they should stand for a while, practice a lot of power gongs and then get good at 3 or 4 techniques and spar a lot. The only secret to being good at fighting is being able to handle the punishment of the necessary training.

  12. #42
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  13. #43
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    Internal Arts Without Referring To Internal Art Except Personal Experience? EMJ

    What internal martial art(s) thought can there be that is not from what has come before.

    I think all later original thought can only be realizations of pre-existing established thought and pretexts; yet, the insight can be fresh and pure and true to original intent but not accepted, or provable to trueness except if it pans-out--mystical, mythical, fantastical that is doable should not be denied. But do not expect it to be believed, it will only be knowable by those with longsuffering correcting practice that finds its way to the Truth of high level mechanics blending breathing and other biomechanics.-Ernie Moore Jr.

    Internal Art(s)-No one would understand to call it that. Much of the instruction given in this thread is using what was done before--more like arrangements than original music. The post request was for personal realization. Re reading some of the posts, it seems that that was not done. Try again? [Pleeeeeeeeeeease, no one put "Do; No, Try"]


    No_Know

    The guy who wants health, from my experience--move arms just inside his greatest reaches as you switch between breathe-in and breathe-out keep the moving steady-smoothe and constant. Expand and contract without understanding and also, at will. As the breath happens at a change in moving-keep the breath with that move keeping the direction of breath-deeper, more thick, but change the move or shift the direction of the move. The stomach is your new feet. Stand as you move. Each breath is a waterfall that drips to a pearl beneath and away from it.-EMJ Each drop adds to the pearl but the pearl does not increase in size yet brightens.-EMJ As he breathes-in, continue to breathe-in as you begin to breathe-out. Breathe out more than you breathe in--"Barely Breathe"[-EMJ] Posture: as if a broomstick is through the shoulders-connecting the shoulders. Lean forward at ankles. Knees over toes. Lean back at knees. Feet-toes point forward-heels point back--parallel, Hips in-front of heels, Back behind waist; aft arms brush ribs-elbows driving away from shoulders and are in the front half of Frontal Plane--at rib-sides ... carrying the torso-rotating it (the ribcage). Aft arms press-in on the latisumus muscles (without squeezing the shoulders) Upper-middle back-back and up-and upper back forward [This makes-"Forever Breathing"[-Ernie Moore Jr.]]. Muscle control must happen by skipping a connecting section. One must conceptualize placing Thought into an area and having no part of the body work but that spot or area. Essentially, one must be able to move only one section without requiring connected generation or conveyance from a physical engine elsewhere in the body: leverage must be at the Earth and happen almost at anyplace of the universe that is of the body--Example: the rubbing scrubbing motion of a hand holding a dish being washed and the washing hand happening without the waist twisting-moving the hips forward and backward.,,some-such, perhaps one might say. -Ernie Moore Jr.

    The person who would like health from internal would also be asked to get down on the ground and get backup as much as they could and the day ends when they cannot get back-up...in five minutes sort of thing. They would be given moves and asked to do them until they feel they have to stop. And then, do it some more until you feel you cannot and then do it again until you feel it can't until your limbs are asked to and they just don't work like you are asking them to.-Ernie Moore Jr.

    The Health interested person would be told to imagine an attack happening to them and avoid it...but this was after class or lesson--[There are no lessons in Squirrel--[I cannot teach Squirrel-but, whatever you get-out-of-whatever, whatever-whatever--If you learn something, so-be-it]], throughout the day in the everyday living-the Squirrel practitioner is to conceptualize being attacked--in the car, laying-down, sitting, walking--things thrown or shot, grabs...it's like the Nightmare On Elm Street Guy contracted out for a variety of attacks like in some of the movies, from impossible places--this mental alertness and creative thinking invigorates-to cope with surprise attacks throughout a day and helps limberness--Fave Example is a spear stabbing through the back of the car seat or up through the seat. Dodging cannot always happen, but what is significant is the attempt to move appropriately to an unsuspected all-of-a-sudden potentially hurtful-lethal move-attack. This is Healthy.-Ernie Moore Jr.

    The guy who wants martial and fighting from internal-my experience, as far as first things is-he would write the Chinese characters for Squirrel [Sung Shu] one thousand times with each hand. There's a certain hand grip for a pen or a brush. It can take weeks to months perhaps. To write that much from the designed assigned posture, requires a breathing. Also, He would spend a day falling to the floor and getting-up (direction might be given on mechanics for both falling and for getting back up)...falling from the knees first, then sometime later from standing. If I had a school--I thought they would do it as they understood but it doesn't stop until they feel they would not be able to get back-up, but they would get down on the ground instead of necessarily falling.-Ernie Moore Jr.

    My understanding to teach one a fighting by internal is to have them conceptualize the technique hitting the target...yet the target does not stop moving, Conceptualize that they resist or evade. Conceptualize that the opponent is stronger and your technique fails--see ways you lose....Conceptualize the opponent is faster and he misses the technique success zone--how does failure look with impending defeat...Conceptualize the person is more Agile and counters and moves to submit or injure your limb where can you be hit and where can you be hurt and see it feel it do again, Fail again, now, prevent immediate defeat...see that fail...repeat this multiple opponents different heights, different sizes, different experiences, different Strength, different Deftnesses, more Agility...attacking while reversing or countering somewhere other than the reverse or counter... Move to your opponent but realize the persons sneaking around you while you are distracted with a technique on one person you can see who presents h er/im self. Move so those sneaking you fail. [Essentially Squirrel has no attack. If anyone gets hurt, let it be me. [Am to be conditioned to where attacked yet stay fit and their attacks are of no consequence. No Ripples of payback. No repercussions [if do not get potentially irreparably hurt]] every attack makes more vulnerable...There was one attack...It's a kill. Squirrel does not fight].

    The Martial fighter wanna be through internal would be directed to kick his own legs not to hurt but contact and build force of impact like adding a sheet of paper to a sheet of paper repeatedly until one has a ream. Understand he is as if moored in cement up to his stomach. Kick until he could not kick and then kick again until his leg stopped moving as he was asking it to move. Move without effort. Think the move. Understand you would like to move, yet lack a conscious will-of-Effort, and yet move as much as can if can...no strength.-Ernie Moore Jr.

    They would learn the same concepts, but the exercises would occur in different order. In Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu (attempt), Squirrel-is muchly breathing with understanding and or or breathing with movement, what one learns for health is in the framework of martial; yet martial does not work if the mechanics of practical martial is not understructured by reasonable mechanics of Healthy.-Ernie Moore Jr.

    Martial experience is empty with such limited experience but your own training partners and same mind set of perspectives-again based on one's own personal experience in training and fighting only. It works for your world but not necessarily in all the Real world of different experience, different training, different foes- different strengths-stronger, faster, more agile, greater endurance, relentless, malicious... also, with different experience, and without the pool of analysis of centuries of fighting of tips and tricks for what misses and what works personal experience alone and without research of ways to be is perhaps lacking.-Ernie Moore Jr.


    No_Know
    Last edited by No_Know; 06-19-2021 at 09:34 PM. Reason: The thought of opponent, was not specified enough.
    There are four lights... impulse...all donations can be sent at PayPal.com to qumpreyndweth@juno.com; vurecords.com

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by No_Know View Post
    [Essentially Squirrel has no attack. If anyone gets hurt, let it be me. [Am to be conditioned to where attacked yet stay fit and their attacks are of no consequence. No Ripples of payback. No repercussions [if do not get potentially irreparably hurt]] every attack makes more vulnerable...There was one attack...It's a kill. Squirrel does not fight].
    There's a Kung Fu lineage that claims to go back to Mo Tzu that is mostly defensive. I cannot find the book right now, but I think its a Greek guy that wrote it. I've seen squirrels fight each other pretty hard but not hurt each other. The Opposum is an animal that is highly defensive, where they will play dead so well that most preditors do not even want to eat them. That's also a really good response if the Police want to beat you up. Curl up and harden all your week spots. The only place you can fight them is in the courts. Pehaps you should create an Ernie Opposum Style Kung Fu, haha

  15. #45
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    It's Greek (About Squirrel) To Me...That's O.K. I No_

    I read in Greek...not so much understand most words but muchly can read.. If you got a title for me to look-up, I could with Internet perhaps do that.

    No_Know
    There are four lights... impulse...all donations can be sent at PayPal.com to qumpreyndweth@juno.com; vurecords.com

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