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Thread: Cross Training?

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Thanks.
    See, boxing is a prime example ( and MT too of course) of how that old view in TMA, of not putting students sparring and hitting right away because it may "compromise their skill" is BS.
    You learn by DOING and the close what you do is to what you MUST do, the better.
    In short, you learn to fight well by fighting as soon and as often as you can because you develop the skills in the right way under the right circumstances.
    Yup - drilling, fighting, sparring should be common in any school of good repute. That allows a person to find "their" way. That's one thing I really liked about Judo and Jiu Jitsu. You'd learn the text book way, everyone had to, but the instructors encouraged you to find your own way for practical application.

  2. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenBrain View Post
    I'm sure you realize that I said that with tongue in cheek. When not joking around I would say "if possible."

    I agree with what you said about BJJ. I only mention it because it's a good ground grappling system and kind of a fad right now. Studying it gives at the very least a perspective of what is most likely going to be attempted on you while on the ground. Still, I'd go with Kali-Arnis first. It has a good grappling system that deals with using/disarming weapons, especially knives. BJJ just doesn't touch on that stuff. I've never practiced rolling in BJJ with blades, but I have in Kali training.
    YeAh i did catch the levity. I have never done ground grappling with training knives either, nor found a local dog brothers shop to try it. I would personally take escrima to bjj training for the streets, even though escrima takes longer to be good at than bjj, and bjj is quckly learned and applied.

    Regarding the western boxing thing, i gotcha about quick development of skills that can be used at the speed of a fight. But what about tailoring some specific parts of CMA's to build a guy up to defend himself in that period of time? I think boxing is a better alternative to MT or TKD since my experience with kicks is that they arent very useful in real street fights.
    That said, when my brother was stationed in VIrginia, he went for a walk one night and got jumped by three guys. The guy in the middle did what typically occours in muggings or assaults, he bum rushed with a tackle. My lil bro was a young state champ wrestler, kicked out of army combatives tourney's for being to violent, and trained in arnis and was carrying a knife. He didnt have time to grab his knife, he didnt sprawl, he snap kicked the guy in the chest as he lunged in for a double leg tackle. That ended the situation as his friends tried to resuscitate. So i know every once and a while kicking can work on a fight. It just never has for me, or on me in the street.

    But! On Kung Fu Forums, western boxing is really the best suggestion? JKD does sparring from day one, and so does Shuai Chiao. One answer boxing does not have is structure. Most street situations i have ever experienced involve tackles, either initially, or gradually. I dont think boxing can develop full body structure that can withstand a shoulder check, or a jumping opponent. Can't CMA's be taught in a way that a person who starts training will be able to defend themselves within 6 months and then progress from there into gradual mastery?
    And is punching a better defense than developing mobile structure over the same short timeline? How many punches can you whip out when a guy is charging you? 2 before he is wrapped around you?
    --—••—--•--—••—–-
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  3. #93
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    See, boxing is a prime example ( and MT too of course) of how that old view in TMA, of not putting students sparring and hitting right away because it may "compromise their skill" is BS.
    You learn by DOING and the close what you do is to what you MUST do, the better.
    In short, you learn to fight well by fighting as soon and as often as you can because you develop the skills in the right way under the right circumstances.
    Damit SR, again with the truth......good sir you overstep your bounds.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  4. #94
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    I think any MA that incorporates a blend of clinch, ground, and striking used in a resistant environment would be good. people on here (some) seem to think MMA the bane of existence in the MA's world, when in honesty you get right up front results that can be applied with little teaching and to great effect.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Pipefighter View Post
    Can't CMA's be taught in a way that a person who starts training will be able to defend themselves within 6 months and then progress from there into gradual mastery?
    Of course they can. I don't understand why people are so opposed to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  6. #96
    After studying JkD for a while i thought that was the ultimate way to bring an average guy to a competent street fighter level quickly. Learning a base of MT, American kickboxing, western boxing, a couple throws, some ground finishes. In 6 months of that i've seen your average guy become a good counter punching, perrying, dancing fighter. But looking back i realize that i already had a solid structure when i started. I find now that structure is lacking in the early stages of JKD. If i wanted to rush past other fighters with under 2 yrs of training it was very easy to bring them off their feet. They didnt have good body structure.

    I think especially for the street application, body structure is essential. Being able to whether the storm of blows for the first 30 seconds is really important, and JKD tries to address that, and does with striking and blocking. Shuai chiao has a very different approach. What if you dont spend time on striking in your first 6 months, but spend all your time on taking a striking situation and turnng it into a shuai chiao situation?

    Check out the Rhino strategy on this page
    https://www.facebook.com/CombatShuaiChiao

    That is a beginner level drill. If a guy worked on protecting his head like this, and worked on trips and off balancing for 6 mo's as a part of practice, and sparred using this strategy, i think he would have a stronger base and feel comfortable about closing range when it suited him and ending the striking game, than compared to training in striking for 6 months. There is more to address, of course, than striking. But having a strong structure can help prevent things from going to the ground so easily.

    My problem with training MMA as a street answer is in the little moments you don't think about. You learn how to find places to take a moments rest. You dont think about it in practice, but you are learning comfort zones that aren't there in a street situation. You learn body placement on the ground that doesn't take into account throat grabbing, eye gouging, ball grabbing, head butting, knife hand control. The more fluid you become at mma or western wrestling, the less you are aware of how much your leaving these targets open. The first purple belt i tapped, which was my second class of bjj was with a "rapist choke", haha. I was in his guard and grabbed him by his trachea. He was really ****ed. And he didnt tap easily. I had to use my kung fu grip. I had no idea that was illegal. Honest. I thought it was martial, not sport.
    After rolling for a couple years and then scrapping with some army guys who were going No Rules rolling, i realized i was leaving a ton of targets open that i had completely forgotten about. in my experience MMA will yield a competent fighter quickly in a fair fight, but there are a ton of holes in MMA as it relates to the street. But you will never find that out by sparring in an MMA room. You will only reinforce your opinions of your self. MMA is no more immune to that problem than bagua. I have only encountered a small handfull of MMA guys who had the body structure of a shuai chiao guy, and they are currently competing in the UFC, and some of the other pro leagues. Any average MMA guy that i have gone with had very unimpressive body structure comparatively, unless he was a college wrestler previously.
    --—••—--•--—••—–-
    Its only a problem if there is a solution
    ⚓️

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by SPJ View Post
    1 running

    2 short staff fighting basics

    --

    I think there is a lot of sense to this approach. The french soldiers who watched the indians do this named it Lacrosse.
    If it were my friend i would have him train shuai chiao for aggressive maneuvers and striking response, and lacrosse to build cardio, running speed, and increase body structure and anticipate weapon movement in a fun and competitive environment.
    The more i understand traditional SC moves, the more i see how they could be used while running. Incorporate a shoulder check into a single leg, hit a front cut at full stride, headlock a charging attacker. Even western wrestling at high levels doesn't create that kind of momentum.

    And i'd take him to an Israeli SEMINAR for knife defense. Not an americanized krav class. Some Israeli soldiers who offer seminars. It seems really hard to develop an effective knife disarm in 6 months from all angles. The israeli's have a one motion answer to knife attacks that can be learned fast. I wouldn't get more sophisticated with a knife than that
    --—••—--•--—••—–-
    Its only a problem if there is a solution
    ⚓️

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pipefighter View Post
    The more i understand traditional SC moves, the more i see how they could be used while running. Incorporate a shoulder check into a single leg, hit a front cut at full stride, headlock a charging attacker. Even western wrestling at high levels doesn't create that kind of momentum.
    This is fundamental to kung fu.

    Though a lot of people never get to this point.

  9. #99
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    Any average MMA guy that i have gone with had very unimpressive body structure comparatively, unless he was a college wrestler previously.
    most have some background in another system. Of course you have your average joe, but I'm speaking of quick results. every system has holes, IMO, or they focus to much on specific things and don't look at fighting as the chaotic thing that it is. Spending enough time learning something seems to be the problem with people these days. They want the quick results and I cannot blame them, but if you want that higher level and higher understanding you have to put in the time.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  10. #100
    Boxing has tons of holes in it for street fighting, but, like others said, it is one of the best choices to learn to fight quickly.

    The fact that you don't have to learn throws, takedowns and skilled take down defense, as in grappling arts, or kicks, lets you get good at the basics very quickly. Boxing has great footwork and the best "boxing hands" out there. You will begin learn to move and hit immediately.

    The original posts was about learning to defend oneself quickly, not being a complete fighter. MMA, Sanda and Muay Thai are all far more complete, but because of the different elements they incorporate, becoming proficient takes a bit longer; unless as Dragonbane said, you already have a solid base in something else.

    Even Muay Thai, which can be learned quite quickly, wouldn't be as good a choice for readily learning to defend oneself, since it does take a while to be proficient at kicking techniques, if you've never trained a kicking art. Kicks will be a liability until you really develop them. If you had to choose between just striking or wrestling, to learn in a short period of time, I'd go with striking, since you may not have enough conditioning and mental toughness at that point to just eat the punch and go for the take down.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  11. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    Boxing has tons of holes in it for street fighting, but, like others said, it is one of the best choices to learn to fight quickly.

    The fact that you don't have to learn throws, takedowns and skilled take down defense, as in grappling arts, or kicks, lets you get good at the basics very quickly. Boxing has great footwork and the best "boxing hands" out there. You will begin learn to move and hit immediately.

    The original posts was about learning to defend oneself quickly, not being a complete fighter. MMA, Sanda and Muay Thai are all far more complete, but because of the different elements they incorporate, becoming proficient takes a bit longer; unless as Dragonbane said, you already have a solid base in something else.

    Even Muay Thai, which can be learned quite quickly, wouldn't be as good a choice for readily learning to defend oneself, since it does take a while to be proficient at kicking techniques, if you've never trained a kicking art. Kicks will be a liability until you really develop them. If you had to choose between just striking or wrestling, to learn in a short period of time, I'd go with striking, since you may not have enough conditioning and mental toughness at that point to just eat the punch and go for the take down.
    I'm beginning to like you again... maybe I'll call off the death feud, but I won't recall the assassin trannys! BWAHAHAHA!

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The point being that for quick development of fighting skills boxing is far better suited than most MA because:
    It is hands on right away.
    You are hitting and sparring right away.
    You actually hit something every training session.
    You are focusing only on a few techniques and using gross motor skills.
    You are not wasting time on indirect training drills.
    You also learn to take hits and still fight back! Real life is not like the movies, you can take a lot of punishment and still fight back effectively.

  13. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    Even Muay Thai, which can be learned quite quickly, wouldn't be as good a choice for readily learning to defend oneself, since it does take a while to be proficient at kicking techniques, if you've never trained a kicking art. Kicks will be a liability until you really develop them. If you had to choose between just striking or wrestling, to learn in a short period of time, I'd go with striking, since you may not have enough conditioning and mental toughness at that point to just eat the punch and go for the take down.
    Agreed on all points.
    I do find that Shuai Chiao has an answer for a striker, even in that short a period of time, and taking someone off their feet eliminates their striking, and makes them reconsider whether it's worth attacking again. Taking time to learn how to strike doesn't answer tackles. It's been my personal experience, and from a number of L.E. Stories and reports i've heard that if you are going to get assaulted or abducted or raped, the attackers more often use tackles before strikes than begin with striking.

    I agree boxing is a really quick path to practical fistfighting. In fact, going straight to sparring with your coach while he tells you what you should be doing differently is a great way to make a fist fighter. Learning from a bare knuckle boxer / pugilist is even better for that, in my opinion, if you can even find one. But that still has no answer to tackles. I don't think bjj is a good answer for tackles either. And even with my wrestling background, i wouldn't have him study wrestling at all.
    But i think shuai chiao, as a traditional CMA can yield a well defended individual for the streets quickly.

    Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?
    --—••—--•--—••—–-
    Its only a problem if there is a solution
    ⚓️

  14. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Pipefighter View Post
    Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?
    just do this:
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...3d59d59a986b16

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Pipefighter View Post
    Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?
    you are right. a true warrior crab around town in full siping da ma stance, ready to face ten thousand enemies. then he is invulnerable to surprise ambush tackle.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™ฎLLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

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