OT: does obama bring change?

[1bad65]

It was 5 people who participated in the rape and murder but one has to look at the environment surrounding it.

Most people in this country would never dream of making unwanted sexual advances towards a 14 year old girl at her home in front of her parents yet apparently this happened with regularity over in Iraq.

It's called mob mentality. Immoral behavior is accepted as long as the entire group is doing it. It went on and nobody said anything.

We have gang rapes here. Don't act like it only happens in Iraq. Hell, we've seen stories here where where people actually allow pedophiles to abuse their kids for drugs and money.

And I don't call 1 incident 'regularity'.

[KC Elbows]

Most people in this country would never dream of making unwanted sexual advances towards a 14 year old girl at her home in front of her parents...


...is the traditional Kansas prenuptial ceremony.

Seriously, moving here from Chicago was culture shock, but I've been to a lot of places where this is still true. This goes on all the time, and people, mostly parents, are reticent in doing anything about it here.

[1bad65]

Nonetheless, 1bad giving you flak for backing a guy regardless of what may be reality is kind of funny, given his party's current investment in tin foil hats and Glen Beck.

Huh?

Who is Glen Beck?

[1bad65]

...is the traditional Kansas prenuptial ceremony.

Seriously, moving here from Chicago was culture shock, but I've been to a lot of places where this is still true. This goes on all the time, and people, mostly parents, are reticent in doing anything about it here.

Your firsthand experience pales in comparison to a guy who believes a plagiarizing poseur.

[KC Elbows]

Who is Glen Beck?

Rush Limbaugh II: Psychotic Boogaloo

[1bad65]

Rush Limbaugh II: Psychotic Boogaloo

I listen to Rush a bit, but not Glen Beck. I don't listen to Neil Boortz either. Or Alex Jones.

[Kansuke]

Had I'd been old enough it would have been off to Canada for me.



What a surprise..... :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

Who is Glen Beck?

You would love him.

Why just the other day he was ranting and raving that the marxists and commies have inflitrated our university and they are just waiting for some word (From god knows who) to take over the entire US!:D

[Kansuke]

Sometimes it is black and white.



You're right. For example, YOU are just flat out a complete and total D-bag and that's all there is to it.

[KC Elbows]

Your firsthand experience pales in comparison to a guy who believes a plagiarizing poseur.

In fairness, at first the culture that pretty much panders to such behavior just outraged me, still does to some extent.

However, the reality is, for the most part the demographic these people come from probably contributes more soldiers than most demographics, and pays the highest price in crippled vets returning home than most others. They are a political football for both parties and many racist organizations, and are often at odds with dealing with all this because they usually lack quality schooling, and many times their culture discourages it, especially among women, but still strongly discouraging it for men. They move from frustration to frustration, and their cultural opposition to modern education means that they are often at the whim of whatever industries provide jobs in their community, without much say in the process.

Because they are often from poor communities with their own crime problems, often neighboring minority communities with crime problems, and because of the culture of eye for an eye, many of their kids get drawn into destructive behavior, with often further demarcation of the line between them and minorities because of the racial differences between their gangs and neighboring minority gangs becoming confused with actual cultural differences. In reality, poor white communities here have more in common with poor black communities than any other group, yet there is little awareness of this.

Locally, their participation in politics can be fairly vibrant and aware, but nationally, removed from awareness of their neighborhood, they often fall back on cultural preferences over real world needs or principles of liberty, and these cultural preferences are often used to move them as a bloc to achieve other people's needs on the national scene, but rarely the real pressing needs of communities like theirs.

True story. Worked at a shop here, family owned, I'm close friends with the family. Their politics are all over the map, normal modern family, really. Anyway, their grandfather worked at the shop some days, it kept him out of his wife's hair. Nice guy, intelligent in his own way, like anyone in a blue collar shop could dish out abuse like no one's business, but not in a nasty are spiteful way, just a way to pass the time. I was talking about Kansas with him, and he got talking about JFK's presidency, he was quite plain in stating that, at the time, he and the other people he knew all had talked many times about a belief that someone was probably going to kill JFK, because otherwise he was going to make the US into a monarchy, and that this was well before the assassination. This is not to say he knew there was going to be an assassination, more stating that the politics of fear being used at the time lent themselves to that kind of attitude. He currently doesn't believe any of it, of course, and then, it was probably more a political talking point than something a cabinet shop owner really needed to worry about.

To use a China relation, my experience has been that, in mainland China and elsewhere, wherever someone adopts extreme rhetoric, they move the least savvy. Older mainlanders seem to reserve judgement on things politically, having undoubtedly seen many times what happens to people who take at face value every proposal handed them. So young people and the uneducated and simultaneously unexperienced are the most easily moved.

In Kansas, this holds true. You get your old die hard nutcase, but mostly, the people most willing to get gungho without any gain of their own lack education, lack fair representation, have very narrow life experiences, and its the young members of their community who pay the heaviest cost.

This is why I get irritated at guys like Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh. They know **** well what these people like to hear, but shy from what they may need to hear. And they often exaggerate problems for effect to the point of suggesting that tyranny is around the corner. In the nineties, this was common, and irresponsible. Oklahoma City was not just an act of a madman, but an event existing in a political climate, and the madmen are moved by fear. I see fear mongers like that as similar to people who try to tell others that America is coming to kill them, so go strap on a bomb. They suggest a terrifying future as if it is right there, say "this future will crush you!" to people who have no power to change it immediately, and benefit from it, and never get called out for calling fire in a crowded theater. They never are the ones fighting the wars, policing the streets, reforming what needs to be reformed, they do nothing to contribute that is in any way in the way of their career, the only guarantee is that they will profit from it.

Once Bush's popularity was clearly going to wane, they disagree with him. Once Obama has trouble, the Democratic version disagree with him. Despite show after show in which they claim prescience more than any psychic fraud would dare to, the only curve they appear to be ahead on for any length of time is the demographic curve of their viewers.

Pundits are, apparently, the only group who are not in any way responsible for their words.


/rant

[BoulderDawg]

We have gang rapes here. Don't act like it only happens in Iraq. Hell, we've seen stories here where where people actually allow pedophiles to abuse their kids for drugs and money.

And I don't call 1 incident 'regularity'.

Who said anything about just one incident? That's just the one that was so henious that it was reported. I'm sure there are hundreds of others that were covered up.

Anyway, let's say a bunch of soldiers stationed here in the US goes out in uniform sees a 14 year old girl in her yard with her mother and starts cat calling "Woo Hoo Mama! How much for a peice of that daughter of yours" Then gives a thumbs up sign.......................What do you think would happen to that group?

Also what do you think would happen to a gang of 5/6 who went into a house here in the US killed the entire family and raped a 14 year old girl? What kind of sentence do you think they would get in Texas? Especially if it was a white girl!!!

These soldiers who did this were all sentenced to long prison terms but here's the kicker: They are all eligible for parole in 10-20 years.

[1bad65]

Who said anything about just one incident? That's just the one that was so henious that it was reported. I'm sure there are hundreds of others that were covered up.

Oh boy. You sure learned from the master. 'Well, I have no evidence all these atrocities happened, but since the US Army is so vile, I know in my heart it happened.' :rolleyes:


These soldiers who did this were all sentenced to long prison terms but here's the kicker: They are all eligible for parole in 10-20 years.

Show me that that sentence is alot different from what happens in non-military courts.

Growing up, we lived across the street from a guy who got arrested for 2 aggrivated (he had a gun) rapes. One woman moved and refused to testify. The other wanted him to get the max, so she testified against him. The guy got 10 years, and was out in 36 months. And the victims were white. And this happened in Texas.

[1bad65]

KC,

Nice, rational post.

The main thing I like about Rush is his life story. The guy was not born rich. He didn't finish college. He didn't make it on his looks. He's been fired alot in the past. He's been dead broke. And he even had a drug addiction.

But through all that adversity, he managed to really make it big. He became a multi-millionarie and tells people that with desire and a work ethic, they can do the same. And he wants our country to stay the "Land of Opportunity", not turn into a socialist state where initiative and success are frowned upon and punished.

[1bad65]

And while Oklahoma City was done by a guy who was considered a 'right-wing nut', no one talks about the other side. The Weather Underground, the militant animal rights groups who assault people, the rioters at economic summits, etc.

Both sides have kooks who go too far, but while people like Rush are blamed for the 'right-wing' ones that explode, no one tries to tie the left wing nuts to famous liberals like Michael Moore or Rob Reiner.

[Old Noob]

Who said anything about just one incident? That's just the one that was so henious that it was reported. I'm sure there are hundreds of others that were covered up.

Anyway, let's say a bunch of soldiers stationed here in the US goes out in uniform sees a 14 year old girl in her yard with her mother and starts cat calling "Woo Hoo Mama! How much for a peice of that daughter of yours" Then gives a thumbs up sign.......................What do you think would happen to that group?

Also what do you think would happen to a gang of 5/6 who went into a house here in the US killed the entire family and raped a 14 year old girl? What kind of sentence do you think they would get in Texas? Especially if it was a white girl!!!

These soldiers who did this were all sentenced to long prison terms but here's the kicker: They are all eligible for parole in 10-20 years.

Made up facts and stupid assumptions. These are the building blocks upon which you support your opinions. Then you wonder why they aren't respected.

Parole systems vary state to state but the military parole system is not too different from either the state or federal system. Thus, if a group of 20-23 year olds gang-raped a 14-year-old here in the states, they could expect similar jail terms and parole results, depending on where the crime and conviction occurred. I guess you will now tell us that groups of 20-23 year olds don't gang rape 14-year-olds in the states. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. But, since I can't put my finger on an example either way, I won't hazzard a completely undeducated assumption on the matter.

[KC Elbows]

KC,

Nice, rational post.

The main thing I like about Rush is his life story. The guy was not born rich. He didn't finish college. He didn't make it on his looks. He's been fired alot in the past. He's been dead broke. And he even had a drug addiction.

But through all that adversity, he managed to really make it big. He became a multi-millionarie and tells people that with desire and a work ethic, they can do the same. And he wants our country to stay the "Land of Opportunity", not turn into a socialist state where initiative and success are frowned upon and punished.

I can see that. My main problem with him, other than scare tactics, is that he has zero ability to do what guys like Bill Cosby can, sacrifice some popularity to, correct or incorrect, make a point. He argued for taking the moral leadership of the nation back by passing out moral authority to a demographic that had not earned it more than any other demographic. He never said "you know, if we're to take moral authority, we have to stop teen pregnancy in our communities, or we're hypocrites." Instead, he handed it out like it was his to give.

The only reason that I find him preferable to Glen Beck is that I don't think Rush believes all his bluster.

[1bad65]

Part of why Rush doesn't back too many causes is that his enemies make HIM the point, not the cause he is backing.

He is known for giving alot of money to charities. And giving them free airtime as well.

[BoulderDawg]

And while Oklahoma City was done by a guy who was considered a 'right-wing nut', no one talks about the other side. The Weather Underground, the militant animal rights groups who assault people, the rioters at economic summits, etc.

How many people died in the OCO explosion?

Now you are comparing that to PETA supporters who throw fake blood on people wearing fur? Or the protestors (Not rioters, the only ones to riot are the cops)at economic summits? Or the Weathermen (who haven't been around in a long time) who actually warned people "We are going to protest by blowing up this building...Please leave" Weathermen felt there had been enough death in Viet Nam.

No comparison...In fact I support all the protest mentioned above with the exception of killing hundreds (that included dozens of children) by blowing up a building.

[KC Elbows]

And while Oklahoma City was done by a guy who was considered a 'right-wing nut', no one talks about the other side. The Weather Underground, the militant animal rights groups who assault people, the rioters at economic summits, etc.

Both sides have kooks who go too far, but while people like Rush are blamed for the 'right-wing' ones that explode, no one tries to tie the left wing nuts to famous liberals like Michael Moore or Rob Reiner.

The Weather Underground, other than themselves, blew up property.

The voices in the mainstream left are not clamoring for a fight for animal rights. And rioters are a far cry from terrorists, which is what McVeigh was.

The voices in the mainstream right DO have people saying "the governnment is coming to get you. If you wait, it will be too late!"

The left demonizes the right plenty, and vice versa, but, since Clinton, any time the GOP has to give over the reigns of government, in rhetoric they always have major voices immediately painting the government as an enemy and a threat, yet, magically, during their turn, questioning their government was not patriotic enough.

It's probably natural, given that the dems are not a party based on one consensus view, while the GOP is, in function if not in their individual views.

[GLW]

“The problem here was this was not one single soldier who just snapped, This a group of at least 5 and probably a lot more that knew about it.”

And there you have the big problem with the military and chain of command.

The training for a soldier is equal parts physical and psychological.

Soldiers are trained from the beginning to follow orders. They are also trained to view the enemy as less worthy than they are of life and comfort and usually this includes objectifying the enemy as something less than human.

Prior to the 20th century, it was actually a “scientifically” supported “fact” for many. For example, Africans were viewed as genetically inferior to Europeans (Thomas Jefferson actually wrote on this…as did Mark Twain later in the 1800’s). Indians were viewed as less than human (some even argued a different species.). The British viewed those in India and other parts of their empire as less than Human (God is an Englishman was the common view).

So, there is a long glorious history of military training teaching their soldiers to call the enemy as something nonhuman and to view them as such. This made looking them in the eye and killing them easier.

Ever heard of any culture being at war and NOT maintaining that they were right…and if they believed in God, that God was on their side….

So, you take a group of 18 – 25 year olds (and some older ones too), put them through the indoctrination….and then you are surprised when atrocities occur?

The role of officers is twofold : one is to lead the troops in the mission and keep them focused. The other is to make sure the troops do not take that step beyond.

Unfortunately, often this role falls to someone who is truly not much older and no more experienced than the troops they lead. The crazy part is that it also often falls to the Sergeants…and they are the ones who are also tasked with training the troops to not see a human but a nonhuman enemy. How likely is it for them to know where that line is?

So, you have from Sergeant on up who are supposed to prevent this…but they can’t… in a system that sets up atrocities and then people are surprised when bad things happen.

Esprit de corps is often just a more organized form of mob thought.

Now for something to ponder :

Being a good citizen in a Democracy often means you should question your leaders and hold them accountable. You need to be able to NOT follow orders but to think about them…. And NO is a very important word.

Those who are willing to die for a society should definitely have a voice in that society. However, exactly how much of a good citizen of a democracy can an indoctrinated soldier be? (Hence the need for different types of training and a way to transition a soldier out of the military and back to being a citizen)…like THAT will ever happen.

[KC Elbows]

Those who are willing to die for a society should definitely have a voice in that society. However, exactly how much of a good citizen of a democracy can an indoctrinated soldier be?

I remember arguing with one guy who thought that one should have to have served in the military to vote. IMO, an atrocious idea, not because the military is good or bad, but because it would mean every voter had undergone indoctrination, be more likely to habitually fall into leader-soldier dynamics, and because it would totally take away from the merit of the sacrifice of being a citizen-soldier. If they are sacrificing themselves for our rights and thus our freedom safety, it makes no sense to take special rights in payment.

[Old Noob]

I would only say for those that have not served in the military, that, yes, it is expected that orders will be followed. What people who have not served in the military often fail to realize, however, is that there is often a conversation between the order being given and the order being followed. To be fair, there are NCOs and Officers in the military that expect their orders to be followed immediately and without question, but I never met a good officer or NCO who wasn't willing to tolerate some questions and ammend orders, if necessary.

[KC Elbows]

I would only say for those that have not served in the military, that, yes, it is expected that orders will be followed. What people who have not served in the military often fail to realize, however, is that there is often a conversation between the order being given and the order being followed. To be fair, there are NCOs and Officers in the military that expect their orders to be followed immediately and without question, but I never met a good officer or NCO who wasn't willing to tolerate some questions and ammend orders, if necessary.

It's not to say that military guys are mindless drones, simply that they are way more likely for some time after being in to habitually be the cog, and they may ammend orders while in, but it seems like there would be orders that they could not ammend, especially on the big questions that the whole country is thinking about. I'm more saying "giving every voter to the military for x years" sounds like a bad idea, not because of our military, our military is not run that way, but because of other examples of military societies.

There's something I once heard, I think it was in reference to game theory(which is well beyond my knowledge), that if there is gain in an act, someone will do the act. If you give an organization with systematized indoctrination command decision over every single voter in a democracy, eventually it will become normal to use it for political gain, because those who use it for political gain will have more political pull than those who don't, not because people are all immoral.

[1bad65]

The SLA killed people, and that group Bill Ayres was involved in injured people (and may have killed some) with bombs.

[1bad65]

Now you are comparing that to PETA supporters who throw fake blood on people wearing fur? Or the protestors (Not rioters, the only ones to riot are the cops)at economic summits?

Assault is against the law. And assaults are a form of violence.

FYI, I believe some protesters tried to set fire to a bank at that recent G20 summit.

[BoulderDawg]

Assault is against the law. And assaults are a form of violence.

WORD!!!!!!! From the man that says he will physically attack Ward Churchiil when he sees him.:D

[BoulderDawg]

Here's a little something from Congresswoman Michele Bachman:


"Thomas Jefferson told us having a revolution every now and then is a good thing and we the people are going to have to fight back if we aren't going to lose our country."

Don't look now but a active congressperson calling for revolution is going against her oath of office.

[KC Elbows]

Here's a little something from Congresswoman Michele Bachman:
Don't look now but a active congressperson calling for revolution is going against her oath of office.

If this were 2007, she would so be called unpatriotic for suggesting this during the struggle with Iraq.

Bit of sour grapes on her flag pin.

[GLW]

There are a number of right wing nutjobs like Bachmann that are calling for insurrection.

The last time someone on the left said such things, they ended up in prison or on the run for a number of years. Abbie Hoffman is a good example...

[Drake]

Wooooooah...hold on. Before we start talking about what a soldier is trained to think, I do hope you have facts to back it up. Fact is, we are INUNDATED with cultural awareness briefings and how we need to be aware and considerate of other cultures. We are told of various cultural diferences that would seem strange to us, but how they are normal, along with an explanation why.

Before any deployment, we are all taught some rudimentary arabic vocabulary, do's and don'ts, and what our mission really is. A LOT of time is spent on law of land warfare and rules of engagement.

Every soldier is trained to be culturally aware and considerate of others. Whether or not they choose to do so is a personal choice and a command challenge.

[Drake]

Supporting the troops means
(1) making sure they are deployed only when absolutely necessary
(2) deployed with a clear attainable mission
(3) deployed with the right equipment and numbers
(4) NOT coerced or stop lossed because you didn't plan well
(5) Provided a transition plan to take them from soldier back to citizen
(6) provide them with the medical and social service care needed due to their service
(7) actually keeping your word and contracts made with them as a government to soldier.

We don't do very well on most of that.

I've been at an advanced rifle marksmanship all day, coaching and mentoring soldiers... so I'm a bit behind here.

1 - No unit goes anywhere without a mission. You don't know how necessary you were until after the fact. Sucks, but that's the way it is.

2- See number one. I will agree that after the initial invasion of Iraq, there was some confusion as to what our mission truly was. Our current role there is not an Army function, but we're doing a good job with it anyway.

3- GEN Eric Shinseki knew how many people we'd need, and that didn't jive with Washington. I'll keep those opinions to myself. As for the equipment, we weren't equipped to fight an asymmetrical war. We could've wiped Iraq off the map, but we couldn't do the urban ops well.

4- Stop loss was ugly. I've seen many good soldiers leave over that fiasco.

5 - We do have a transition service available to Soldiers. It's called ACAP. It's very good, and shows soldiers how to market themselves, write resumes, conduct mock interviews, and utilize various tools to find jobs.

6- The VA is failing in many areas, and unfortunately, the Army is powerless to do anything about it.

7- There is actually writing in every contract that makes stop-loss perfectly legal. I'll dig up mine later and get you the legal blurb. It's there, I saw it, and I knew hat it meant. Nobody believed it would ever be used, though.

Hope this helps clear some stuff up.

[BoulderDawg]

Wooooooah...hold on. Before we start talking about what a soldier is trained to think, I do hope you have facts to back it up. Fact is, we are INUNDATED with cultural awareness briefings and how we need to be aware and considerate of other cultures. We are told of various cultural diferences that would seem strange to us, but how they are normal, along with an explanation why.

Before any deployment, we are all taught some rudimentary arabic vocabulary, do's and don'ts, and what our mission really is. A LOT of time is spent on law of land warfare and rules of engagement.

Every soldier is trained to be culturally aware and considerate of others. Whether or not they choose to do so is a personal choice and a command challenge.

There you have it.

There is no excuse for the behavior of soldiers or their officers. None what-so-ever. The only diffence is most 20 somethings who have jobs in this country don't get together after work to rape and murder 14 year olds then grill chicken wings.

I'm trying to imagine a situation where we had a few soldiers from another country here in the states and they went out and did something like this. To start with they would be arrested immediately and not allowed to go back to their country. They would be branded as "Terrorists" and probably sentenced to death in an American courtroom. The Neo talking heads would have a field day and the country they came from would immediately be recoginized as a "Terrorist" country.

In my opinion these soldiers should have been handed over to the Iraqi courts and be subject to their laws and punishments. If it was found out their COs knew about the sexual harassment they should also be charged with murder and be put in a Iraqu jail.

[Kansuke]

The only diffence is most 20 somethings who have jobs in this country don't .



Don't sacrifice years and put their lives at great risk to guarantee an unworthy, ungrateful A-hole like you is free to spout your endless bull****.

[GLW]

There is the mission you are told...and then there is the bigger picture.

The US military has been pretty short on realistic missions since WWII.

Korea - how is that one working out. More than 50 years and it is still not resolved...we may not be in overt conflict but that is hardly an example of a CLEAR and ATTAINABLE mission.

Vietnam...right....

Grenada - now was that really necessary.

Iraq 1 - we put the bozo in place and then were surprised when he wanted to cut his strings...

Iraq 2 - so exactly what is the reason we are there?

No exit strategies... and on it goes.

If you truly think the US military has been used well...or that the prep for leaving is good...how come there is such poor screening for PTSD or brain trauma... Or such a high split up rate in marriages after a return.... (yeah, right...you can just come home changed from a war and everything will be all right)

Ill used...broken promises - dating back to even the Spanish American war...

[BoulderDawg]

I'm wondering if the military will ever stop lying

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30168352/


There are only 21 surviving POWs from the first Gulf War in 1991, the Department of Defense says. Yet the Department of Veterans Affairs is paying disability benefits to 286 service members it says were taken prisoner during that conflict, according to data released by VA to The Associated Press.


A similar discrepancy arises with Vietnam POWs. Only 661 officially recognized prisoners returned from that war alive — and about 100 of those have since died, according to Defense figures. But 966 purported Vietnam POWs are getting disability payments, the VA told AP.

[1bad65]

I'm wondering if the military will ever stop lying

We know your idol won't.

[Drake]

We know your idol won't.

Dude...this guy is an f'ing moron. The article was about people defrauding the VA, not about the government lying. Idiot.

[BoulderDawg]

We know your idol won't.

Didn't you know? All of us liberals are lying MFers!:D

The difference being that none of our lies cost the US taxpayer money.

Those people coming back from the Middle East know how to work the system and play it to the hilt! And if anyone complains they accuse them of being unamerican commie MFers!

By the way, Ward Churchill did not come back from Vietnam and immediately run into the local VA office to squeeze as much money as he could out of them.:D Ward's taxes have gone to pay for these cheats though.

[1bad65]

Dude...this guy is an f'ing moron. The article was about people defrauding the VA, not about the government lying. Idiot.

I know. He is completely incapable of seeing things right in front of his face. Yet he considers himself so smart. It's hilarious.

[1bad65]

By the way, Ward Churchill did not come back from Vietnam and immediately run into the local VA office to squeeze as much money as he could out of them.

He had loftier goals. Like fooling a University into paying him a 6-figure salary for a job he was not qualified for.

[1bad65]

Since you like bringing the Palin family into the discussion, let's see what the Obama family is up to...

Obama's Brother Refused UK Entry Over Alleged Sex Assault

"The brother of President Obama has been refused a visa to re-enter Britain after being questioned by police over an accusation of attempted sexual assault and receiving a caution for a public order offense.

Samson Obama — one of the president’s 11 half-brothers and sisters — is alleged to have been living illegally in Britain when he was arrested in Berkshire last November. A group of girls, one aged 13, told police a man approached them and followed them into a cafe a mile from the home of Samson Obama’s mother in Bracknell.

Obama, 41, was questioned by Thames Valley Police for several hours, during which his fingerprints and a DNA sample were taken. He is alleged to have told detectives that he was Henry Aloo, a genuine asylum-seeker, but gave the address of his own mother, Kezia. Obama denied any sexual assault, but is reported to have accepted an official caution for a public order offense. A caution is an admission of a criminal offense. Police were reported to have also discovered that Obama had been living illegally in Britain for seven years."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,514855,00.html

[BoulderDawg]

So let's see if I have this right:

This guy was arrested for approaching a group of girls, one of them was 13 and the others older, maybe saying hello and then going into the same restaurant........Dam!!!!!!! The guy deserved the death penalty!!!!!!:D

I must be a sex crazed maniac myself. I've done the same thing on more than one occasion!:eek:

[Baqualin]

So let's see if I have this right:

This guy was arrested for approaching a group of girls, one of them was 13 and the others older, maybe saying hello and then going into the same restaurant........Dam!!!!!!! The guy deserved the death penalty!!!!!!:D

I must be a sex crazed maniac myself. I've done the same thing on more than one occasion!:eek:

You pervert:p

[Baqualin]

OK BD.....give us your take on what you see in your own mind as a perfect world.
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

Since you like bringing the Palin family into the discussion.........


And what about those Palins? Here's somebody who ran for Vice President of the United States who is now fighting with a 19 year old kid!:D

I swear to God if I was this Levi guy I would milk this for what it's worth.

But I swear to God this is so funny. This kid has, more or less, B slapped Sarah Palin!:p

I wonder if we are nearing the end of Sarah Palen's 15 minutes of frame? I hope not! I would like to see if Neos are stupid enough to run her for prez next time!

[1bad65]

Do you think innocent people give police fake names and then ADMIT to criminal offenses? :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

Do you think innocent people give police fake names and then ADMIT to criminal offenses? :rolleyes:


I'm interested in what crime he "Admitted" to. Flirting with some girls? Well put me in the lock up and throw away the key! :D Because I and about 90% of the rest of the males out there have done the same thing.

I find it interesting that you don't really know what happened here other than he approached a group of girls where one happen to be 13 and then went to the same restaurant.

Now you're comparing that to Sarah Palin's sister-in-law. We don't have to guess what she is charged with...it's felony burglary. She had a nice little racket going. She had already ripped this guy off twice so he set her up. He left his home then crept back in and hid in the closet. He caught Palin going through his cabinet. One she had cleaned out twice before.:D

By the way she had her 4 year old daughter with her at the time.

By the way Sarah Palin had no comment.....running away from that one of course. She should be offering support to a family member in trouble.

[BoulderDawg]

Oh, one other thing about Sarah, I read somewhere where Neos are complaining rather loudly(Isn't that a surprise!:D) It seems like there are several watchdog groups in Alaska who have been holding the Gov's feet to the fire when it comes to walking the straight and narrow.

The neos are just up in arms over this! How dare anyone complain at all!


The latest thing was an ethics violation. The Gov was making some sort of personal appearance at a snowmobile race. Anyway she showed up wearing some kind of outfit that looked like one of those NASCAR drivers.:D It had advertisements for her husband's business all over it! This is not cool if you're gov!

[BoulderDawg]

Arrrr, me don't don't inderstand why these pirates are getting so much attention, matey arrrr.

They be totally insane. They think they're trig cove but might soon be made to walk the plank!:D

I honest don't understand why that story got so much attention. Neos tried to turn these guys into the new "terrorist". Truth is the four pirates holding that guy hostage were all 19/20 year old kids. Who probably had no idea of what they were going against.

Anyway, Neos are saying the US should step in and clean up the area......Why? I could care less if there are a group of modern day pirates roaming the seas.

The solution is simply to arm the ships and after 4 of 5 boatloads of pirates are killed then you won't see so much priracy. However this is not the responsiblitity of the US.

[Baqualin]

Arrrr, me don't don't inderstand why these pirates are getting so much attention, matey arrrr.

They be totally insane. They think they're trig cove but might soon be made to walk the plank!:D

I honest don't understand why that story got so much attention. Neos tried to turn these guys into the new "terrorist". Truth is the four pirates holding that guy hostage were all 19/20 year old kids. Who probably had no idea of what they were going against.

Anyway, Neos are saying the US should step in and clean up the area......Why? I could care less if there are a group of modern day pirates roaming the seas.

The solution is simply to arm the ships and after 4 of 5 boatloads of pirates are killed then you won't see so much priracy. However this is not the responsiblitity of the US.

I love the Black & White world you live in.

The solution is simply to arm the ships and after 4 of 5 boatloads of pirates are killed then you won't see so much priracy.

If the commercial ships were armed they would not be allow to port in a lot of countries due to their laws forbidding such armed ships:rolleyes:

However this is not the responsiblitity of the US.

WOW you got one right:eek:

[BoulderDawg]

[B]If the commercial ships were armed they would not be allow to port in a lot of countries due to their laws forbidding such armed ships:rolleyes:

Links? Sources?

If you're carrying something of value in a high risk situation you have to be able to protect it.

What good is it going to do if you sail into port and you don't have your cargo?

[1bad65]

Why in the world is your retarded self still whining about the "Neos"? :rolleyes:

It was Comrade Obama who gave the order to fire, not George Bush.

I actually agree with Comrade Obama on this one though. It is the President's SWORN duty to protect American's from all enemies. He did just that.

[BoulderDawg]

Franken v Coleman

Well, it was annouced last night that Al Franken won using the best and most fair method that is possible.

That's not going to be good enough for the Neos though. They will continue through the court system claiming they want a "Perfect" election........There is no such thing.

I don't know, if there's a chance they could tie this up for the next six years, like they want to, I think Franken should just concede and say "Having representation for the people of Minnesota is more important than politics."

Give it back to Coleman. I mean what the hell. Power is all those people want anyway.

[BoulderDawg]

It is the President's SWORN duty to protect American's from all enemies.

There is no such "Sworn duty" taken by the president. If an American decides to leave the United States then he/she is subject to the laws of country they are in...or in this case maritime law.

If you decide to sail into waters where pirates roam then that's your business. You can't expect my tax dollars to go to protect you for doing something crazy.

[1bad65]

Links? Sources?

If you're carrying something of value in a high risk situation you have to be able to protect it.

"Still, [Pentagon spokesman Bryan] Whitman said other nations and the shipping industry would have to look at ways to make commercial traffic less vulnerable. That could include arming commercial ships, although that would prevent them from docking in ports of nations that forbid civilian sailors from carrying weapons."

http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=116&sid=1646080

There ya go. And straight from the Pentagon. ;)

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;929829

Links? Sources?

Your kidding right:confused:

[1bad65]

There is no such "Sworn duty" taken by the president. If an American decides to leave the United States then he/she is subject to the laws of country they are in...or in this case maritime law.

If you decide to sail into waters where pirates roam then that's your business. You can't expect my tax dollars to go to protect you for doing something crazy.

Dude, you're an idiot. STFU about things you have no clue about.

[BoulderDawg]

"Still, [Pentagon spokesman Bryan] Whitman said other nations and the shipping industry would have to look at ways to make commercial traffic less vulnerable. That could include arming commercial ships, although that would prevent them from docking in ports of nations that forbid civilian sailors from carrying weapons."

http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=116&sid=1646080

There ya go. And straight from the Pentagon. ;)

Notice he did not say what countries those were.

Here's the lowdown of that: If I'm a ship owner I'm not going to risk the lives of my crew and the loss of my cargo just to do business with these countries. I would only sail into countries that welcomed a secured ship. Of course I would have no problems in agreements such as no weapons off the ship.

[Raipizo]

Will Obama bring change? I believe so and i hope so the war going on is stupid the economy is crap, America needs fixin'.

[Baqualin]

Dude, you're an idiot. STFU about things you have no clue about.

He's lonely Bad...you get that way when you live in a bubble;)
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

Will Obama bring change? I believe so and i hope so the war going on is stupid the economy is crap, America needs fixin'.


You know I'd really really like to believe that.......

Truth is Obama just went to congress to ask for another 80 billion to fight this war.........meet the new boss............

However I don't think Obama is no where near the mess that Bush was......that said I don't expect any kind of real change.

[BoulderDawg]

He's lonely Bad...you get that way when you live in a bubble;)
BQ

Thanks for the lovely personal comment!:D

[Baqualin]

Thanks for the lovely personal comment!:D

Your Welcome:)

[GLW]

The solution for piracy like in Somalia truly has to be an international effort.

A crew on any given ship can be from all over the world. A ship may be registered in one country and then have a captain from another and a crew from all over.

Then, you can also have a ship, captain, and crew all from one country...

So, whose arms would you use... :)

[BoulderDawg]

The solution for piracy like in Somalia truly has to be an international effort.

A crew on any given ship can be from all over the world. A ship may be registered in one country and then have a captain from another and a crew from all over.

Then, you can also have a ship, captain, and crew all from one country...

So, whose arms would you use...


What? I guess you would use your own arms.

If I own a company that requires security, what country the manager or the workers are from has no factor in how I use security.

[GLW]

That is the logic that gives us things like Blackwater....

Mercenaries - aka - illegal enemy combatants is how they are termed...

They don't come cheap...

Knee jerk solutions to high seas piracy are not good...and have been proven faulty for around 200 years.

Then, you also need to look at WHY they are in Somalia...and what the 'pirates' are likely to do should there be a single US as opposed to a multinational response to them would be.

Just what we need, another training ground for people who hate us...

[BoulderDawg]

That is the logic that gives us things like Blackwater....

Mercenaries - aka - illegal enemy combatants is how they are termed...

They don't come cheap...

Knee jerk solutions to high seas piracy are not good...and have been proven faulty for around 200 years.

Then, you also need to look at WHY they are in Somalia...and what the 'pirates' are likely to do should there be a single US as opposed to a multinational response to them would be.

Just what we need, another training ground for people who hate us...

Once again "What?"

I have news for you. There are hundreds of security companies around the world. The vast majority act within the law and are only interested in security.

You're right. They are not cheap. Of course anything of quality rarely is. If I have a 50 million dollar cargo it's well worth the price..

>>>>Then, you also need to look at WHY they are in Somalia...and what the 'pirates' are likely to do should there be a single US as opposed to a multinational response to them would be.<<<<

That doesn't make a lick of sense. This is not a concern for any one country or any multinational group. This is just a police matter. Why do you think this would be some sort of US military operation?

Also, I don't see how on the open seas a security force protecting a ship could be deemed an "illegal enemy combantant". It's not like there will be groups of innocent civilians living on the prirate ship.

No, truth is, after several episode of a pirate attack being met with about 20 members of a security force with 50 mm guns and rocket launchers you will start to see less pirate attacks.

[Drake]

Dude, you're an idiot. STFU about things you have no clue about.

There IS an oath. Holy crap, man. Seriously. The oath every president takes? Remember? Ring a bell? OATH OF OFFICE, MORON.

[Drake]

The solution for piracy like in Somalia truly has to be an international effort.

A crew on any given ship can be from all over the world. A ship may be registered in one country and then have a captain from another and a crew from all over.

Then, you can also have a ship, captain, and crew all from one country...

So, whose arms would you use... :)

I say a joint naval operation might be in order, because everyone has a stake. However, the rest of the world will probably just pay ransoms and encourage the pirates while the US, AGAIN, has to handle a complicated problem that has no perfect outcome.

[BoulderDawg]

There IS an oath. Holy crap, man. Seriously. The oath every president takes? Remember? Ring a bell? OATH OF OFFICE, MORON.

You restore and renew my faith in Neos.:D

Here's the presidential oath of office:


"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Where's the part in there about protecting every American citizen?

You know you really should think before you open your mouth!:p

[BoulderDawg]

Tea Bag Day

I watched Rachel Maddow tonight and she was talking about some sort of protest the Neos have lined up for tomorrow.

Apparently the Neos are totally outraged that taxes have skyrocketed and they are going to protest it. I guess I must be missing something since as far as I know taxes haven't changed since Obama took office and he's promised to cut taxes 95% of Americans but I guess that doesn't matter.

Anyway it's my understanding that Neos are suppose to go out and buy a S load of tea and carry it to a public place to protest. What are they planning to do with the tea?.....I haven't a clue. My guess is that the few people who are actually conned into doing this will probably take the tea and throw it everywhere and pollute the area as much as they can. I don't know, they'll probably throw it in people's faces.

Here is Boulder there will be a few of us drinking tea tomorrow but there won't be anyone out on Pearl Street throwing it around.:eek:

[GLW]

“ There are hundreds of security companies around the world. The vast majority act within the law and are only interested in security. “

You come off as a Progressive wannabe…but fall way short of understanding issues with a Progressive Frame. To steal a concept from George Carlin, why don’t we call things what they are. “Security Companies” are either Bodyguards, Private Police, Private Detective, or Mercenary forces. A generalization such as your statement is problematic. The key word is COMPANY and they are only interested in making money. They act within the law primarily because to not do so means that they will lose their ability to make money.

However, you are suggesting placing Mercenary soldiers, armed, with permission from their employer to shoot or do whatever is within their power to protect cargo (you mention 50 million dollar cargo but nothing about the crew that is transporting it….hmm, what are you REALLY concerned with?) often in international waters… This is a major WTF incident waiting to happen.

Now ask yourself, if you were the head of the Port Authority in say New York harbor and you had an armed merchant vessel coming into port, what would you do? If we react a certain way with armed vessels coming into our ports, what would expect other nations to do?


You're right. They are not cheap. Of course anything of quality rarely is. If I have a 50 million dollar cargo it's well worth the price..


“>>>>Then, you also need to look at WHY they are in Somalia...and what the 'pirates' are likely to do should there be a single US as opposed to a multinational response to them would be.<<<<

That doesn't make a lick of sense. This is not a concern for any one country or any multinational group. This is just a police matter. Why do you think this would be some sort of US military operation?”

When did I say US Military operation. I said a multi-national solution. Piracy can bloom into other things. It also operates in areas that cross national boundaries and jurisdictions. By its very nature, treatment of piracy as a criminal matter sets up a policing force for violating national boundaries. Allowing mercenaries to handle it sets up other problems.

As to the why of Somalia…well, they have a totally destabilized government. Multinational corporations have been dumping toxic waste and such off their coast for a number of years since there was no government to stop them…and then in addition, their coastal zone that would normally be their economic waters are being exploited by a number of multinational corporations for fishing / harvesting to the point that the locals who used to make a living fishing can’t do so any longer (either due to the toxic waste or the depletion of the ocean wildlife from over fishing). A number of the Somalia pirates started out taking action against the dumpers and over fishers. They then grew into piracy since it proved to be more lucrative. So, dealing with the illegal activities of the pirates is one aspect of the solution. However, there also needs to be an aspect that deals with the original causes of the piracy. But of course, you have not looked into that aspect of the situation.


“Also, I don't see how on the open seas a security force protecting a ship could be deemed an "illegal enemy combantant". It's not like there will be groups of innocent civilians living on the prirate ship.”

What is the point where the waters go from international to national waters? There are different zones…some are like 12 miles…some say 50, some even try to claim up to 200. So, what happens when a group of mercenaries handles a group of pirates 13 miles off of a coastline? What if they get captured and taken to shore? The nation they end up in could quite easily pull a Bush Admin tactic and label them unlawful enemy combatants…and now you have yet another problem.


“No, truth is, after several episode of a pirate attack being met with about 20 members of a security force with 50 mm guns and rocket launchers you will start to see less pirate attacks.”

Or you will see better equipped pirates and some major pyrotechnics.

The world is not so simple…and simplistic solutions to complex problems often make for more complex problems.

[BoulderDawg]

Piracy can bloom into other things.

Like what? Just what exactly can piracy bloom into? These people could care less what religion you are, what country you are from or what politics you support. They are only concerned with the money they can make. If you are a threat to that then you are a danger to the pirates.

Putting security on a ship is a business decision. If you want to protect your cargo in a danger area it would be prudent to put security on a ship...case closed. By the way you mentioned an uncaring attitude towards the crew. I ask you: Would you rather sail those waters with no protection?

Also, why should my tax dollars go to the protection of private ships? Multinational or not.

I'm interested in what you think would happen if pirates attacked a ship and were all killed by security on that ship. Do you think anyone would be ****ed off other than the pirates?:D I'm wondering where do you think this is going to lead.

By the way I would have no problem at all with any ship docking in an American port that carried security.

[GLW]

"Like what? Just what exactly can piracy bloom into?"

Somalia is made up of mostly Sunni Muslims. That is as in Al Qaeda and other extreme groups of Islam. It is majorly poor and unstable. The population is a perfect breeding ground for disenchanted, disenfranchised, radical angry people.... You do the math...

"These people could care less what religion you are, what country you are from or what politics you support."

THESE PEOPLE - now that is the type of thing I would expect from a right wing person with severe problems with race and prejudice.

"Also, why should my tax dollars go to the protection of private ships? Multinational or not."

You will pay for it one way or the other. You think it won't get passed on to you in higher prices? So, if YOUR tax dollars don't go into making the maritime world safer, what prevents massive piracy in all international waters? You have some magic kingdom police force out there?

There is always blowback. Seems like right now you are seeing it with "Pirates vow to kill all captured US sailors" headlines. That is understandable...but all it takes is a bit of money and the promise of power to get some head of state on board with supporting those "pirates" and then blowback is worse...

So...by your logic, why should I give a rat's a$$ about them anyway, I don't own a ship, I don't travel there, I have no ties to Somalia ...surely I should not have MY Tax dollars support that....and while we are at it, I live in a place where there are no volcanoes ... I want to opt out of that too (Bobby Jindal, eat your heart out).

[BoulderDawg]

Did you know that in New York it is now illegal to take a pis?

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/04/15/2009-04-15_yankees_fan_sues_nypd_kicked_out_of_stadium_for _using_restroom_during_god_bless_.html

They were signing God Bless America and this guy had to go to the bathroom. He was told by the pigs he could not go because it disrespected the song....:D He tried to go anyways he was physically attacked by the police and kicked out of the game.

Anytime you are detained in a public place it is kidnapping...These cops should be charged with this....not to mention assault and battery.

By the way when I go to a game I do whatever strikes my fancy during the National Anthem including staying in my seat and talking friends. If the people around me don't like it...........So if I don't stand during the anthem I sure as hell don't do anything for GBA!:D

I don't know why I have to be subjected to religious songs at a ballpark where I just paid $30-$40 for a seat.

[BoulderDawg]

"Like what? Just what exactly can piracy bloom into?"

Somalia is made up of mostly Sunni Muslims. That is as in Al Qaeda and other extreme groups of Islam. It is majorly poor and unstable. The population is a perfect breeding ground for disenchanted, disenfranchised, radical angry people.... You do the math...

"These people could care less what religion you are, what country you are from or what politics you support."

THESE PEOPLE - now that is the type of thing I would expect from a right wing person with severe problems with race and prejudice.

"Also, why should my tax dollars go to the protection of private ships? Multinational or not."

You will pay for it one way or the other. You think it won't get passed on to you in higher prices? So, if YOUR tax dollars don't go into making the maritime world safer, what prevents massive piracy in all international waters? You have some magic kingdom police force out there?

There is always blowback. Seems like right now you are seeing it with "Pirates vow to kill all captured US sailors" headlines. That is understandable...but all it takes is a bit of money and the promise of power to get some head of state on board with supporting those "pirates" and then blowback is worse...

So...by your logic, why should I give a rat's a$$ about them anyway, I don't own a ship, I don't travel there, I have no ties to Somalia ...surely I should not have MY Tax dollars support that....and while we are at it, I live in a place where there are no volcanoes ... I want to opt out of that too (Bobby Jindal, eat your heart out).

These people...(and yes I said "these people"-Make of that what you like) are pirates. If you think they take their "loot" and spread it out to the poor in Somalia then I have some swamp land down in Florida to sell you.:D The Somali people could care less about those people.

And just exactly what head of state would align themselves with "These people"? That would be suicide.

[1bad65]

Ron Paul has a very cheap and proven way to combat piracy.

"A little-known congressional power could help the federal government keep the Somali pirates in check — and possibly do it for a discount price.

Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) and a growing number of national security experts are calling on Congress to consider using letters of marque and reprisal, a power written into the Constitution that allows the United States to hire private citizens to keep international waters safe."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090415/pl_politico/21245

[BoulderDawg]

Ron Paul has a very cheap and proven way to combat piracy.

"A little-known congressional power could help the federal government keep the Somali pirates in check — and possibly do it for a discount price.

Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) and a growing number of national security experts are calling on Congress to consider using letters of marque and reprisal, a power written into the Constitution that allows the United States to hire private citizens to keep international waters safe."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090415/pl_politico/21245

Now that is asking for trouble. Sounds like the wild west. This would end up as a high seas police force and they would probably turn into pirates themsleves.

Also, once again, hire someone? Not with my tax dollars>

[GLW]

and how is that different from "Private Security Forces" - except that folks like Blackwater may have a bit more competition?

[GLW]

warlord wannabes will align themselves either over or under the counter with just about anyone that pays the price they want. Seems that the Taliban did just fine aligning themselves with folks like Bin Laden...and then there was where he was BEFORE Afghanistan..and what about Pakistan now...

Nope, folks will align for profit.... and to further their political ambitions.

The people don't have to care about the pirates...but they may care about making the people the pirates prey upon look bad...and that is enough to have someone support them.

Then you also have to wonder if there are any that may be charismatic enough to be protected.... There were plenty of the classical pirate variety that were liked in the ports they supported.

If just blowing them out of the water worked, it would have worked for Spain when the British used it against them...and then again it would have worked for Britain when the US and others used it against them...

Piracy only recedes when the ports of call and safe havens are removed. This only happens when there is a multi-national approach to the problem.

[GLW]

Granted, I had absolutely no problem with the snipers taking each of the 3 out with a well placed shot. Basically, you commit a violent act - be it criminal or an act of revolution...you need to be aware that you DO put your life on the line and that the cost for taking a hostage may very well be that you get a bullet in your brain.

[BoulderDawg]

warlord wannabes will align themselves either over or under the counter with just about anyone that pays the price they want. Seems that the Taliban did just fine aligning themselves with folks like Bin Laden...and then there was where he was BEFORE Afghanistan..and what about Pakistan now...

Warlord wannabes....heads of state....since when did these two become the same?

Also, were those countries that you mentioned were sending out criminals in international waters to steal and loot ships?

So, your plans are the create some sort of multinational police force to deal with piracy? You gonna pay for it? I know given the economy the way it is that countries in Europe are not going to be to hot on the idea.:D

By the way the coast line there is roughly the lenght of the east coast of the US. You plan to spend millions to patrol that?

All I can tell you is what I would do if I owned a ship that sailed those waters. Also, it would not be up to the US (or any multinational group for that matter) to tell me that I could not arm my cargo ships.

So keep on thinking about some sort of world navy police force for a problem that is very minor indeed to many of the others that we have.

[1bad65]

Also, once again, hire someone? Not with my tax dollars>

Read the article before you comment. From said article:

"Instead, privateers would be incentivized to patrol the ocean looking for key targets — and money would be paid only to the contractor who completed the job."

[1bad65]

All I can tell you is what I would do if I owned a ship that sailed those waters. Also, it would not be up to the US (or any multinational group for that matter) to tell me that I could not arm my cargo ships.


Whoa there Comrade!!!

I thought only psycho, gun-toting Neos were for less restrictive gun laws.

[BoulderDawg]

Whoa there Comrade!!!

I thought only psycho, gun-toting Neos were for less restrictive gun laws.

That's true. However there are no laws on the high seas and if you get in trouble it might take a while for your 911 call to be answered.

Unlike the US military in Iraq you're not going to hit a little girl shooting at a pirate ship.

[BoulderDawg]

Saw some news reports about the tea bag protest the Neos had. To start with there are around 4-5 women over at the FOX channel that can Teabag me.....:D That's about all they're good for anyway! They sure aren't known for their journalism.

Anyway from what I saw on TV what happened today was nothing like any protest I've ever been to. Usually we approach it with some passion. I didn't see any of that from this group of protestors. The Neos said they were mad as hell......they have a funny way of showing it. What I saw was a group of fat middle aged people walking around with racist signs and just laughing and joking.

Those people don't know what real protest is. I would have loved to seen this neo group walking down the middle of the street being spit on and being called every vulgar name in the book by people on both sides.

What was funny was one lady said, "We were going to dump an S load of tea in some park but we could not get a permit".....:D The people I protest with, when asked to see a permit, would just grab their crotch and say "Here's your permit"! We don't pay much attention to things like that.

Also, someone said there were several thousand people protesting in downtown Denver....BS, I would say 200 tops...if that many.

Finally, one of the big things there were counting on were counter protestors...yeah right! Like any liberal would care if these people play with tea bags in the middle of a park!:p

[1bad65]

That's true. However there are no laws on the high seas and if you get in trouble it might take a while for your 911 call to be answered.

Actually, I believe you must obey the laws of the nation whose flag you fly, even in international waters.


Unlike the US military in Iraq you're not going to hit a little girl shooting at a pirate ship.

Once again showing your complete ignorance. The Somali pirates often use 'human shields'. They even used some during the recent standoff with the US Navy.

[1bad65]

I would have loved to seen this neo group walking down the middle of the street being spit on and being called every vulgar name in the book by people on both sides.

Hypocrite. You recently got on my case for saying I would spit in the face of your plagiarizing poseur buddy.


The people I protest with, when asked to see a permit, would just grab their crotch and say "Here's your permit"! We don't pay much attention to things like that.

So, it's better to break the laws rather than abide by them? :rolleyes:

Just keep showing us your ignorance and stupidity.

[1bad65]

That's about all they're good for anyway! They sure aren't known for their journalism.

At least they don't accept copies from Kinko's as facts, unlike a 'real' journalist like Dan Rather.

[Old Noob]

The people I protest with, when asked to see a permit, would just grab their crotch and say "Here's your permit"! We don't pay much attention to things like that.



His protesting is too deadly for the streets. :)

[Drake]

Actually, I believe you must obey the laws of the nation whose flag you fly, even in international waters.



Once again showing your complete ignorance. The Somali pirates often use 'human shields'. They even used some during the recent standoff with the US Navy.

That and comparing a private security operation within the confines of a single nation, as opposed to sailing in international waters and port calls, not only indicates complete ignorance... it also indicates complete stupidity.

[Drake]

Oh, and while everyone loves a story of oppression, the real scoop is out on our (in)famous Yankee fan.

Police spokesman Paul J. Browne said the officers, who were being paid by the Yankees to work at the Bronx stadium, ejected Campeau-Laurion, 30, after they "observed a male cursing, using inappropriate language and acting in a disorderly manner while reeking of alcohol."

He said the officers "decided to eject him rather than subject others to his offensive behavior."



Stadiums are not public property, by the way. Like any other business that may require shoes and shirts be worn, you can't get trashed and start making a nuisance of yourself at a ballgame and not expect repercussions from those who have a vested financial interest in the game. Part of being American is understanding what you can and cannot do on someone else's property.

[GLW]

“Warlord wannabes....heads of state....since when did these two become the same?”

Your kidding, right?

Warlords, given enough weapons, money, ambition, and luck, throughout history can and do become heads of state. Exactly what would you say someone like Idi Amin was? He was essentially a warlord who became the dictator (ie. head of state) of his nation. So, when did he change from one to the other. And besides, try reading comprehension. The statement was a freeform LIST and not a heading with an equivalence indicator.


“Also, were those countries that you mentioned were sending out criminals in international waters to steal and loot ships?”

Historically it has happened. What would you call Sir Francis Drake in the eyes of the Spanish? Jean Lafitte in the eyes of the British, …and while I don’t know of or care to run down an example of a more modern day instance, the very fact that it has been policy in the not so distant past implies that for less developed or scrupulous nations, it is quite possible to be policy now.


“So, your plans are the create some sort of multinational police force to deal with piracy?”


I made no plans. I am pointing out that your knee jerk solution will in all likelihood make things worse. I am pointing out that the days of cowboy diplomacy and mercenaries dealing with international problems should be gone and that there should be a multi-national solution. What that solution may be – well, that would need to actually be discussed. Its not as if the problem has suddenly blown up simply because a US crew was involved. This has been a problem for a good while. It is not going to end the world and does not require an emergency response. It requires a reasoned and unified response. As in multi-national agreement and follow through. It takes more time but in the end has a higher chance of success.


“By the way the coast line there is roughly the lenght of the east coast of the US. You plan to spend millions to patrol that?”

I plan to spend nothing. I am not proposing anything but a multi-national approach. What that is – who knows now…. But you propose arming merchant ships with their private soldiers and potentially turning the mostly workable seas into an old west gun town. Brilliant.

“All I can tell you is what I would do if I owned a ship that sailed those waters. Also, it would not be up to the US (or any multinational group for that matter) to tell me that I could not arm my cargo ships.”

RIGHT….you are a country to yourself because you own ships. Bloody Vikings… Get him some SPAM.

[GLW]

One interesting take on the “Protests” from yesterday is the differences between the basis for a protest from the left and right.

Let’s see, on the left you have things like
Anti-war protests : basis : some protest because they don’t personally want to go and get killed but with the removal of the draft, this is reduced. Others protest because they view the war they are protesting as illegal, unjust, immoral, not in the nation’s best interest, etc…
Civil rights protest : basis : some protest because they are the receivers of discriminatory treatment while others protest because they view such things as ethically and morally wrong.
Anti-WTO protests : basically those protesting view the WTO as an immoral organization that exploits developing nations
Animal rights protest : basis : they tend to believe that the treatment of animals is immoral
Environmental protests : basis : they tend to believe that the treatment of the planet is immoral

On the right, you have things like:
The teabaggers : basis : taxes and deficits are eating into MY wallet and money. (granted, SOME do wish the government to reform and become more fiscally responsible…but that is not the driving force behind most of the protests)
Greed or self-interest is a predominant driving force.
Segregationsists when schools were being integrated : basis : two things, we don’t want outside people telling us how to run our schools and we don’t want THOSE people in our schools… racism is the predominant aspect.
I guess you COULD call the Oklahoma City bombings a protest…but that was just right wing crazy.
Anti-abortion protests : basis : we don’t want you to have one…we think it is murdering an innocent child (though I do have to wonder about where that concern for the child goes after it is born…)
Pro-death penalty and execution protests : basis : we want the govt. to kill that criminal… many reasons for the belief.
Pro-10 commandments on public property : basis : we want the government to display the 10 commandment tablets at the courthouse, the city hall, whatever (regardless of the fact that many of the places that had these protests got their 10 commandment exhibits as promotional items when the movie was being released)
Pro-school prayer : basis : we want prayer in school – (and often the same people do not want sex education or reality based drug abuse education in the school, though)

I see an interesting pattern developing between the two types of folks and what motivates them to go out and protest.

[1bad65]

On the right, you have things like:
Segregationsists when schools were being integrated : basis : two things, we don’t want outside people telling us how to run our schools and we don’t want THOSE people in our schools… racism is the predominant aspect.

Those were actually left-wing people.

"In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

-George Wallace

Wallace again attempted to stop four black students from enrolling in four separate elementary schools in Huntsville in September 1963. After intervention by a federal court in Birmingham, the four children were allowed to enter on September 9, becoming the first to integrate a primary or secondary school in Alabama.

George Wallace was a Democrat.

And fyi, a higher percentage of Republican Senators voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 than did Democrats.

[1bad65]

And don't forget Democrat Senator Robert Byrd either.

Byrd joined the Ku Klux Klan when he was 24 in 1942. His local chapter unanimously elected him Exalted Cyclops.

In 1944, Byrd wrote to segregationist Mississippi Democrat Senator Theodore Bilbo:

“I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

[GLW]

Bad you are revealing your age…or actually, your youth.

Left / Right is NOT a Democrat / Republican thing. It is a set of policies, ideals, principles.

Wallace was a right wing guy. He was a racist and segregationist. He, along with others, was a Hawk for the Vietnam war.

During the 1960s, there were three major factions in the Democratic Party. The one you are referring to can also be called the DixieCrats. They were very right wing, hawks, and anti-civil rights. George Wallace was one of them.

A significant portion of the DixieCrats switched to the Republican party in the 70’s and 80’s and were responsible for states like Texas making a shift from being a primarily Democratic state to a Republican one.

Then you had the middle of the road faction who were supportive of the policies of FDR, liked Truman, and fell usually for civil rights and were on both sides of the fence for their support or disapproval of the Vietnam war.

Johnson and Humphrey were in this second group. They were definitely New Deal verse 2 and pro civil rights but also were hawks.

Then you had the left wing of the Democratic party. It was made up of people who were definitely pro civil rights and anti-war. They included folks like McGovern, Bobby Kennedy, and so on.

The Republican party at that time was open on civil rights. They tended to be hawkish on Vietnam, and still very much pro-business. They were against much of what Johnson wanted to do and supported Nixon heavily…until he brought them down in flames.

So…at least get your history right…


For those like me, we had a real dilemma. We looked at the Republican party and saw a disdain or at best a dis-concern for equality and opportunity and a major interest in only where the money was. Then we looked at the Democratic party and saw folks like Bobby Kennedy (and his murder) and saw one place to align...and then looked at the DixieCrats and the Johnson hawks...and had despair. No wonder you had the Yippie and other political movements.

[BoulderDawg]

Those were actually left-wing people.

"In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

-George Wallace

Wallace again attempted to stop four black students from enrolling in four separate elementary schools in Huntsville in September 1963. After intervention by a federal court in Birmingham, the four children were allowed to enter on September 9, becoming the first to integrate a primary or secondary school in Alabama.

George Wallace was a Democrat.

And fyi, a higher percentage of Republican Senators voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 than did Democrats.

Oh my God! George Wallace was a left wing commie liberal.......and I didn't even f'ing know!:D I guess he was hanging with those other liberals done in Alabama such as Bull Connor.

What does that say about Saddam's Republican Guard!

[BoulderDawg]

Police spokesman Paul J. Browne said the officers, who were being paid by the Yankees to work at the Bronx stadium, ejected Campeau-Laurion, 30, after they "observed a male cursing, using inappropriate language and acting in a disorderly manner while reeking of alcohol."

He said the officers "decided to eject him rather than subject others to his offensive behavior."

Well I guess that will come out in the law suit. The answer to that is: If you try to block me from simply going to the bathroom I'm going to use some choice words myself. The so-called "disorderly manner" happened after he was challenged about disrespecting the song.

[BoulderDawg]

That and comparing a private security operation within the confines of a single nation, as opposed to sailing in international waters and port calls, not only indicates complete ignorance... it also indicates complete stupidity.


To start with I don't even know what point you are trying to make here. If you had bothered to read and pay attention to anything you would see where I indicate there are vast different in the operation of a private security force on land and sea. However I'm not even sure this is what you are talking about.

This is like several pages ago when you made this stupid post claiming I said the President does not take an oath of office. Had you have bothered to read the posts leading up to that you would have saw that was not the point at all. I think this is what happened here. However your ramblings are so vague no one knows what the hell you are talking about.

[BoulderDawg]

Originally Posted by BoulderDawg
I would have loved to seen this neo group walking down the middle of the street being spit on and being called every vulgar name in the book by people on both sides.

Hypocrite. You recently got on my case for saying I would spit in the face of your plagiarizing poseur buddy.


and? Where's the hypocrisy? This group of protestors were never subjected to that kind of abuse and were never in any danger of it from liberals. Liberals don't do things like that. Howevers with "progressives" that might be another story.

The point being is these people did not really get a taste of standing up for a cause. I saw this one lady. She was probably 50 years old, fat and had this big floppy hat with tea bags hanging on it. Had she been subjected to spitting and listening to rednecks talking about what they would do to this commie loving B's daughter she would have been heading for the hills!:D

[BoulderDawg]

Once again showing your complete ignorance. The Somali pirates often use 'human shields'. They even used some during the recent standoff with the US Navy.

Now there's a neo catch phase if I have ever heard one: Human Shields....:D

Which neo blog did you pick that off of? The only "human shields" I know of was the people they took hostage on the high seas. Excuse me but isn't that the whole idea of taking people hostage?:eek:

[BoulderDawg]

One final word on the Neo protest:

As I said, the people out there treated it like some sort country club lawn party. I didn't see any anger, any passion like they say they had.

What I saw was a nationwide event orchestrated by FOX news and god knows who else. One just has to go to the web site the tea baggers have put up to realize there is an S load of money behind this.

In any case, I saw no police present what-so-ever. I'm assuming they will grant us the same courtesy next time we protest.....

[1bad65]

Well I guess that will come out in the law suit. The answer to that is: If you try to block me from simply going to the bathroom I'm going to use some choice words myself. The so-called "disorderly manner" happened after he was challenged about disrespecting the song.

You missed the part about public intoxication. That is against the law, as is disorderly conduct.

To keep it short, it's against the law to go out in public drunk and act like a jerk.

[1bad65]

However your ramblings are so vague no one knows what the hell you are talking about.

If that's not the pot calling the kettle black....

[1bad65]

One final word on the Neo protest:

As I said, the people out there treated it like some sort country club lawn party. I didn't see any anger, any passion like they say they had.

What I saw was a nationwide event orchestrated by FOX news and god knows who else. One just has to go to the web site the tea baggers have put up to realize there is an S load of money behind this.

In any case, I saw no police present what-so-ever. I'm assuming they will grant us the same courtesy next time we protest.....

There are alot of things you fail to see. To be honest, you only see what you want to as it fits your perception of reality.

Passion to you is getting on the Net and defending a white con artist pretending to be an Indian. So I guess I can see how someone of your intelligence might fail to see others' passion.

As to police, I believe people have to get a permit to march like this. From what I hear, it's not to ban them, it's so cities can manage it in terms of public safety. The fact that there were little to no police, yet little to no criminal activity speaks volumes about those protesting.

[BoulderDawg]

You missed the part about public intoxication. That is against the law, as is disorderly conduct.

To keep it short, it's against the law to go out in public drunk and act like a jerk.

I also missed the part where he was given a breath test, found to be intoxicated and arrested for "Public intoxication".......guess the news man just forgot to print it!:D

[BoulderDawg]

The fact that there were little to no police, yet little to no criminal activity speaks volumes about those protesting.

It speaks more to what they were protesting against. Violence or criminal activity at a protest usually happens when two sides clash. Since there was no counter protestors being vulgar, getting in their faces, throwing eggs or god knows what else then there was nothing there to police.

Right now we are in the planing stages for a protest in support of Ward Churchill to get his job back. If you would like to see how conservatives respect liberals rights to protest then I suggest you come to our rally. Bring the kids and show them just exactly what happens when liberals try to peacefully protest.

[1bad65]

I also missed the part where he was given a breath test, found to be intoxicated and arrested for "Public intoxication".......guess the news man just forgot to print it!:D

You don't need a breath test for a pi.

You need it for a DWI because the law states a certain BAC constitutes being legally intoxicated for that particular charge.

And you can be charged with disorderly conduct when you have had nothing to drink.

[1bad65]

It speaks more to what they were protesting against. Violence or criminal activity at a protest usually happens when two sides clash. Since there was no counter protestors being vulgar, getting in their faces, throwing eggs or god knows what else then there was nothing there to police.

So they are supposed to break laws and act like morons just like fools like you do? :rolleyes:

Hasn't your con artist buddy been arrested at protests quite a few times? ;)


Right now we are in the planing stages for a protest in support of Ward Churchill to get his job back. If you would like to see how conservatives respect liberals rights to protest then I suggest you come to our rally. Bring the kids and show them just exactly what happens when liberals try to peacefully protest.

We are all for freedom of speech. But most intelligent, rational people detest con artists.

If you idiots get more than 50 people to show up for the plagiarist poseur, I'll be surprised.

[1bad65]

Speaking of your fake Indian buddy, he looked mighty pale at the trial. Maybe you should bring him some more spray-on tan.

Here he is looking quite dark:
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090323/capt.a7f61463b50e4abd84584535a307a4bd.embattled_pr ofessor_lawsuit_ny124.jpg

Here his is at trial. Notice the pale face. :)
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090323/capt.7a81dfe404134f818edf326a96100186.embattled_pr ofessor_embattled_professor_ny114.jpg

[BoulderDawg]

You don't need a breath test for a pi.

You need it for a DWI because the law states a certain BAC constitutes being legally intoxicated for that particular charge.

And you can be charged with disorderly conduct when you have had nothing to drink.

So what? Just show me the link where this guy was arrested for public intoxication.

[BoulderDawg]

So they are supposed to break laws and act like morons just like fools like you do? :rolleyes:

Do you mean like going up and spitting in someone's face?

Liberals don't have to do things like that to protest. However there are a few among us that would slap the taste out of your mouth if you did something like that to us.

The truth is whenever liberals protest the Neos come to that well prepared. There will usually be 2/3/4 neo instigators there to act like a fuse. So during the protest the next thing you know a Churchill supporter is walking down the sidewalk when someone comes up and spits in his face. Most of the time they have done their homework and chose a protestor they know will fight back. Anyway by the time the police get there the originator of the trouble is long gone.

One bright spot here with the advent of video this has become less of a problem.

[1bad65]

Do you mean like going up and spitting in someone's face?

Liberals don't have to do things like that to protest. However there are a few among us that would slap the taste out of your mouth if you did something like that to us.

If the poseur has a face-to-face in Austin, we shall see what he does. ;) My guess is he punks out, as I'm not a woman or a man recovering from heart surgery.


Most of the time they have done their homework and chose a protestor they know will fight back.

You really believe this? :rolleyes: That's got to be one the dumbest things you've posted, and there is alot competition in that category.

Speaking of paid protests, ACORN and Jesse Jackson's group have been caught paying people to protest in the past.

[1bad65]

So what? Just show me the link where this guy was arrested for public intoxication.

I didn't bring it up.

I simply pointed out people are arrested everyday for PI and disorderly conduct in public places.

[BoulderDawg]

If the poseur has a face-to-face in Austin, we shall see what he does. ;) My guess is he punks out, as I'm not a woman or a man recovering from heart surgery.

Considering the threats he's gotten over the last three years he doesn't go out in public without heavy duty security. So, in reality, if you did that, you would be on the ground in about 3 seconds.

No matter though, Your mouth is bigger than your actions. If he ever comes to Texas nothing will happen and you'll come on here with a list a mile long as to why you didn't spit on the man.

However , I still wonder. Professor would probably come down there for a lecture and not as a protest and there would hundreds of people wanting to hear what the great man has to say. Why would you want to maybe spoil an evening for all these people who just want a good lecture unless you were really scared of the man himself?

I mean if Rush Limbaugh, Bush or somebody like that came to Boulder for a lecture that's fine with me. I don't want to hear it but I'm sure there are others who might.....and I wouldn't feel the need to attack any of these speakers.......I guess violent is just the dividing line between liberals and Neos.

[BoulderDawg]

Question for Bad:

Why does Texas want to secede from the union?

[Drake]

So they are supposed to break laws and act like morons just like fools like you do? :rolleyes:

Hasn't your con artist buddy been arrested at protests quite a few times? ;)



We are all for freedom of speech. But most intelligent, rational people detest con artists.

If you idiots get more than 50 people to show up for the plagiarist poseur, I'll be surprised.

Man fails to realize that counterprotests are just as equally protected and part of our society as the protests themselves. At any rate, if anyone spits on me, I recommend they have good dental insurance.

[1bad65]

At any rate, if anyone spits on me, I recommend they have good dental insurance.

I believe that. But see; you are a real man, not a wife beater.

[1bad65]

Question for Bad:

Why does Texas want to secede from the union?

They do?

That's news to me. Our Governor mentioned it, but you obviously didn't read and/or comprehend what he said. Here ya go:

"Later, answering news reporters' questions, [Governor Rick] Perry suggested Texans might at some point get so fed up they would want to secede from the union, though he said he sees no reason why Texas should do that.

"There's a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/15/governor-says-texans-want-secede-union-probably-wont/

[KC Elbows]

You really believe this? :rolleyes: That's got to be one the dumbest things you've posted, and there is alot competition in that category.


So no one has done exactly that since cointelpro and the associated bunch did in documented cases? The right, who were the ones who came up with the idea(again, documented) just forgot about it? Seems a bit naive, considering the generation of "conservatives" who came up with it were notables in the previous administration.

[1bad65]

So no one has done exactly that since cointelpro and the associated bunch did in documented cases? The right, who were the ones who came up with the idea(again, documented) just forgot about it? Seems a bit naive, considering the generation of "conservatives" who came up with it were notables in the previous administration.

Can you provide some proof of this?

[GLW]

Granted, some of the links may be biased...but no more so than the Fox News links provided by other people around here :

COINTELPRO was revealed through Freedom of Information Act documents released to have been involved in things like :

unwarranted surveillance (no warrants and no probable cause with wiretaps and stake outs)
paid informants who were not members of groups...but after being signed up with the govt., joined the groups to inform on them. In one instance, one of the informants actually planned the demonstration and assigned people in areas that would then be the hot buttons
use of information to target people at protests

Supposedly, COINTELPRO ended in the 70's but they just moved on. Similar footage was available from the various things like WTO meetings, Republican Conventions, and so on.

While not all of it is probably true, there is enough of a common thread from witnesses who have no connection to each other that along with the history of COINTELPRO makes these things highly likely.

http://www.forests.com/cointel.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/COINTELPRO/covert_cit.html

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/coinwcar3.htm

http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/19991202/ige02058.html

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/09/02-0

[BoulderDawg]

The CIP was a sad chapter for America. It was well documented that MLK after about 1955 probably never made a phone call that wasn't taped...oh well.

But not only were they pulling stunts during demostrations but they were also infiltrating such things as various labor groups and even the American Indian Movement.

The truth is that given enough time we will hopefully expose the CIP type operations that went on during the Bush Admin.

But going back to the 60s: The riot at the Chicago Democratic convention didn't just happen. The slaughter that happened when protestors crossed that bridge in Alabama didn't just happen. The right wing was well aware that any violence at these events would be blamed on the protestors not matter what happened.

What I find interesting is the right wing protest in this country. As far as I know there has only been one thing the right has ever protested and that is abortion(they've always gotten everything else they've ever asked for). I mean bombing clinics, shooting doctors, and harassing Doctors and patients 24 hours a day yet that's okay.

In any case, I hope the teabaggers had fun. I thought about going to park in Denver and finding some young hot protestors (If there were any) and asking her to teabag me!:D

[BoulderDawg]

They do?

That's news to me. Our Governor mentioned it, but you obviously didn't read and/or comprehend what he said. Here ya go:

"Later, answering news reporters' questions, [Governor Rick] Perry suggested Texans might at some point get so fed up they would want to secede from the union, though he said he sees no reason why Texas should do that.

"There's a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/15/governor-says-texans-want-secede-union-probably-wont/

I find just the fact that he would hint at something like that cause for concern. Jeanine Garafalo hit the nail on the head last night on the Olbermann show when she said it's simple the fact that they cannot stand a black man being president.

I mean that all it can be. How is Washington thumbing their nose at the American people? Why are people "Fed up" with what's happening in Washington?

I find it interesting that Neos are sick and tired with the way things are being done in Washington. Yet Obama has only been in office for less then 3 months. As I have mentioned before, it all has to do with power. This whole teabag thing was orchestrated by powerful and rich neos. One just has to go on there website to know that. They have a list of "Sponsors" that covers most of fronts for the Neo money in Washington....there was no grassroots involved here.

However, you know the sad thing is that it's actually working. Obama is caving in Neo interest every day. Just yesterday he said he wasn't going to prosecute anyone for war crimes......looks like the right wing has finally corrected that boy who thinks he's president.

[1bad65]

COINTELPRO was revealed through Freedom of Information Act documents released to have been involved in things like :

paid informants who were not members of groups...but after being signed up with the govt., joined the groups to inform on them.

So this COINTELPRO was a government sanctioned thing? Or a government group? Or a government sponsored thing?

I'm asking because the nutjob said this was the work of "neo instigators".

[1bad65]

But not only were they pulling stunts during demostrations but they were also infiltrating such things as various labor groups and even the American Indian Movement.

I believe AIM suspected your wife-beating buddy was possibly an informant.

Of course later they threw him and his buddy Russell Means out of the AIM. ;)

[BoulderDawg]

I believe AIM suspected your wife-beating buddy was possibly an informant.

Of course later they threw him and his buddy Russell Means out of the AIM. ;)

Can you show me any proof that Ward Churchill has beat anyone....much less his wife.

With the AIM, as with many organizations, internal strife lead to different group branching off within the movement. This happens in all groups where you have a lot of strong willed people and different opinions as to how things should be run.

If this is the best you have on Ward then I think he's in pretty good shape!:D Can't wait to see him on campus again!

[BoulderDawg]

So this COINTELPRO was a government sanctioned thing? Or a government group? Or a government sponsored thing?

I'm asking because the nutjob said this was the work of "neo instigators".

I doubt anything like that was officially "sanctioned" (Whatever that means) but one just has to listen to the Nixon tapes to know what went on back then.

[1bad65]

I find just the fact that he would hint at something like that cause for concern. Jeanine Garafalo hit the nail on the head last night on the Olbermann show when she said it's simple the fact that they cannot stand a black man being president.

Just because she is a racist like you doesn't mean she is right. And what does she know about Texas politics? Last I checked she was a bad actress from California.


I mean that all it can be. How is Washington thumbing their nose at the American people? Why are people "Fed up" with what's happening in Washington?

By spending our children's money before they are even born!

We are fed up with giving and giving, and being told we need to give more. How much is enough? You tell me, as Washington feels ~40% isn't enough.

And fyi, Texas is one of those states who gives more to the Federal Government than we get back.


I find it interesting that Neos are sick and tired with the way things are being done in Washington. Yet Obama has only been in office for less then 3 months. As I have mentioned before, it all has to do with power.

You're so ignorant it's ridiculous. Watch this clip, it's from the Chicago Tea Party: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6xWGvdRQ9Q Notice they are upset at Bush as well for the bailouts and for spending. Even I have said the exact same thing. Just because you are incapable of comprehending it, doesn't mean no one is saying those things.


This whole teabag thing was orchestrated by powerful and rich neos. One just has to go on there website to know that. They have a list of "Sponsors" that covers most of fronts for the Neo money in Washington....there was no grassroots involved here.

Get real. It started with Santelli's rant a few months ago. You want to see rich guys involved in politics, look at the poster child: The Nazi sympathizer George Soros and MoveOn.org


However, you know the sad thing is that it's actually working. Obama is caving in Neo interest every day. Just yesterday he said he wasn't going to prosecute anyone for war crimes......looks like the right wing has finally corrected that boy who thinks he's president.

Space cadet. Even a die-hard socialist knows he couldn't charge them and win.

If he caves to the "Neos" so much, please explain how he got his 'stimulus' bill and his budget passed that the Republicans were dead-set against.

[1bad65]

Can you show me any proof that Ward Churchill has beat anyone....much less his wife.

I already have. And just because you are too stupid to comprehend it, or in complete denial of reality, does not mean I have to continually repost things for you. FYI, it's in the court papers of one of his divorces.

I also showed video where he assaulted a cameraperson.

[Kansuke]

I find just the fact that he would hint at something like that cause for concern. Jeanine Garafalo hit the nail on the head last night on the Olbermann show when she said it's simple the fact that they cannot stand a black man being president.



Who have you heard say that they "cannot stand a black man being president?" No one? That's what I thought, you race-baiting POS.


As for Jeanine Garafalo the 'poltical scientist' - big LOL! :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

I already have. And just because you are too stupid to comprehend it, or in complete denial of reality, does not mean I have to continually repost things for you. FYI, it's in the court papers of one of his divorces.


Once again show me the police reports and document the beating. As a liberal I would like to know when this happened and exactly what happened.

[KC Elbows]

Can you provide some proof of this?

The reason the Weathermen weren't convicted was because the people investigating them and other groups broke so many laws the convictions could not be brought up, it is well documented, as are cases of infiltration of groups by investigators who then conducted behavior intended to make the group look bad, also well documented. The previous paragraph contains all the info needed for the beginning of research on the topic, but much of it is a matter of court record.

[BoulderDawg]

By spending our children's money before they are even born!

We are fed up with giving and giving, and being told we need to give more. How much is enough? You tell me, as Washington feels ~40% isn't enough.

Then you tell what is it that Neos want? We just had eight years of cutiing cutting taxes and the election of a conservative president who's agreed to cut your taxes still more if you make less than 250K a year.

Olbermann had a funny clip of one of the protest on last night. This guy stood up and asked the crowd "How many here make less than 250K a year?" (Cheers go up) then he said "Well you do know this president is going to cut your taxes" (Boos and shouts of NO!, NO!).

So I want to know just exactly what you people want. You're getting your taxes cut, your getting a continuation of your war in the middle east.

Jeanine did get it right last night. The Neos are so stupid they don't even know they're getting most of the things they have asked for. However, that's not the root of the problem for the Neos. The problem is you have a black man who is in power.

[1bad65]

KC, I'm asking for proof that "Neo instigators" did these things. Not the government.

It's common knowledge government agents and informants infiltrate groups all the time, I want examples of "Neo instigators" doing it. That's what the nutbar alleges, and I want him to prove it or STFU.

And he was talking about people starting fights at protests, not infiltrating groups involved in bombings in order to find the culprits of the crimes.

[1bad65]

Then you tell what is it that Neos want? We just had eight years of cutiing cutting taxes and the election of a conservative president who's agreed to cut your taxes still more if you make less than 250K a year.

We're not "Neos". I know you love that buzzword, but you sound like a retarded parrot.

We want SPENDING and taxes cut. We don't like the FACT our unborn children are already born with massive amounts of debt owed that they had NO PART of incurring. It's not right.


Olbermann had a funny clip of one of the protest on last night. This guy stood up and asked the crowd "How many here make less than 250K a year?" (Cheers go up) then he said "Well you do know this president is going to cut your taxes" (Boos and shouts of NO!, NO!).

Well, Comrade Obama was saying on April 15th we already got that tax cut. I know I make under $250k, and I didn't get it. Did you? Did Drake?


So I want to know just exactly what you people want. You're getting your taxes cut, your getting a continuation of your war in the middle east.

Again, we want SPENDING cut too. If it isn't cut, and cut dramitically, taxes will be alot higher, and you cant get too much higher or you destroy the economy completely.

And fyi, alot of Libertarians protested, and they are against the war.


Jeanine did get it right last night. The Neos are so stupid they don't even know they're getting most of the things they have asked for. However, that's not the root of the problem for the Neos. The problem is you have a black man who is in power.

Racists like you and her are NEVER right.

And again, we are not getting what we want. We wanted no more bailouts, we did not want the 'stimulus' bill, and we did not want Obama's budget. We went 0-for-3 on those, so knock it off with this 'We are getting what we want from a conservative like Obama' nonsense.

It quite frankly shows you live in your own little world.

[BoulderDawg]

You mean spending like in spending 12 billion per month in Iraq for the last six years?

I knida feel sorry for Obama. He's kowtowing to the right but he's still catching it on both sides for trying to clean up a mess that he inherited.


And again, we are not getting what we want. We wanted no more bailouts, we did not want the 'stimulus' bill, and we did not want Obama's budget. We went 0-for-3 on those

And you're not going to get it. Guess what? Bush and GOP are no longer in power. Arrogance is part of your problem. Instead of hinting that you might leave the union or that you're planning revolution you might want to think about working together to solve problems. I thought that was what Washington was for. The days of getting 100% of what you want is over.

[BoulderDawg]

By the way, I noticed wher the DHS issued some sort of report about right wing extremist. Here's part of it:


The economic downturn and the election of the first African American president present unique drivers for right-wing radicalization and recruitment

The report didn't name names or point to anyone it just told the truth.......The Neos absouletly lost it!:D Limpy was so upset he didn't even eat lunch yesterday!

Truth hurts doesn't it? And besides if you're not part of this right wing radical movement then why should you be offended?

[Drake]

We're not "Neos". I know you love that buzzword, but you sound like a retarded parrot.

We want SPENDING and taxes cut. We don't like the FACT our unborn children are already born with massive amounts of debt owed that they had NO PART of incurring. It's not right.



Well, Comrade Obama was saying on April 15th we already got that tax cut. I know I make under $250k, and I didn't get it. Did you? Did Drake?



Again, we want SPENDING cut too. If it isn't cut, and cut dramitically, taxes will be alot higher, and you cant get too much higher or you destroy the economy completely.

And fyi, alot of Libertarians protested, and they are against the war.



Racists like you and her are NEVER right.

And again, we are not getting what we want. We wanted no more bailouts, we did not want the 'stimulus' bill, and we did not want Obama's budget. We went 0-for-3 on those, so knock it off with this 'We are getting what we want from a conservative like Obama' nonsense.

It quite frankly shows you live in your own little world.

Wait... we got a tax cut? When?

As much as BD likes to parrot off..I'm not a republican, but I DO believe that spending more than you make is bad business. I believe even more that you should not involve feds in private business, because most feds are there because they wouldn't stand a chance in the business world.

I'm not 100% sold on smallest gov't possible, but I am against ridiculously huge government.

[Drake]

I like the republican idea as it stands, but what they are today... neck deep in the weeds chasing some really bad ideas... I don't agree with at ALL.

Here's what I figure the rep concept is...

John has a business, and he employs three people. Because taxes are low, he can afford to promote, hire and give raises to those individuals. Even though the taxes are lower, more people working more than covers the difference.

After a while, John's company becomes larger, allowing for more employees making higher wages, who then feed back into the system by buying products from other businesses, which is enhanced by them paying lower taxes. Buy purchasing more, even with lower taxes, again the gov't gets a windfall. After a while, though, the company considers outsourcing. HOWEVER, due to tax breaks and incentives offered by the US by way of these tax windfalls, they choose to keep many of their operations here.

Finally, by there being no restrictive government intervention, only the smartest and hardest working are promoted to the higher echelons, because as much as John likes his bud Phil, he knows that Pedro works harder and gives more back to the company. John is a businessman, and with all the competition, he can't afford to play favorites.

So, with that the way it is, the most efficient companies rise to the top, and the best workers and planners get what they deserve for their hard work.

btw...having grown up in poverty, Pedro feels that his newfound position and income are a blessing, and routinely gives to needy charities instead of being forced to cover for costly and bloated government programs.

Did I get that right, 1Bad?

However... that is not the modern republican... sad.

[1bad65]

And you're not going to get it.

But YOU said we already are getting it. :rolleyes:

Do you see how you sound like a fool?

[1bad65]

By the way, I noticed wher the DHS issued some sort of report about right wing extremist. Here's part of it:

The report didn't name names or point to anyone it just told the truth.......The Neos absouletly lost it!:D Limpy was so upset he didn't even eat lunch yesterday!

Truth hurts doesn't it? And besides if you're not part of this right wing radical movement then why should you be offended?

You go ahead and use that garbage report for a source. FYI, the Administration is already backing off of it because it said ridiculous things about our troops.

Even the authors of it are backpeddaling. Of course, your moronic self lapped it all up.

[GLW]

COINTELPRO - Counter Inteligence Program - was a program started under J. Edgar Hoover...and continued on a large number of years. Nominally, they claim it went from 1956 through 1971. However, the COINTELPRO brand may have stopped then but the actions hardly did. Under Nixon, there continued to be the same activities and then it all sort of went off of the national radar with Watergate and Nixon resigning. Somehow, many people assumed that such activities ended with Nixon leaving office, Hoover dying, and the end of the Vietnam war. Not really, they just got better at hiding them.

It kept track of folks like the KKK and Socialist Workers Party at first...then added anti-war groups, the Black Panthers, the new version which is still not acknowledge keeps track of folks like Greenpeace.

[1bad65]

Here's what I figure the rep concept is...

Did I get that right, 1Bad?

However... that is not the modern republican... sad.

You're right. And yes, many modern Republicans have strayed somewhat from that philosophy.

Actually what you wrote is almost exactly how Ronald Reagan looked at taxes and the economy. And he was proven correct.

[1bad65]

COINTELPRO - Counter Inteligence Program - was a program started under J. Edgar Hoover...and continued on a large number of years. Nominally, they claim it went from 1956 through 1971. However, the COINTELPRO brand may have stopped then but the actions hardly did. Under Nixon, there continued to be the same activities and then it all sort of went off of the national radar with Watergate and Nixon resigning. Somehow, many people assumed that such activities ended with Nixon leaving office, Hoover dying, and the end of the Vietnam war. Not really, they just got better at hiding them.

It kept track of folks like the KKK and Socialist Workers Party at first...then added anti-war groups, the Black Panthers, the new version which is still not acknowledge keeps track of folks like Greenpeace.

Thanks for the info.

So, we can now say it was a Government program and not a bunch of "Neo instigators", correct?

And we can also say their goal is to obtain info on the targeted groups, not start fights at protests, correct?

[BoulderDawg]

But YOU said we already are getting it. :rolleyes:



Hardly, you are getting everythingthat you want except for the one intangible that you can't have right now. That is power.

The way I see the Democrats are bending over and grabbing their ankles in trying to please the Neos and basically they are getting everything they ask for.......the difference is that it's the Neos who have to do the asking........this is what they can't stomach.

BTY: I thought what was said in that report about military personal returning to the US and being a right wing security risk to average citizens was spot on. As I said, "The truth hurts". However you Neos have whined and cried about it so much the people up in Washington are just throwing up their hands and saying "Fine! Neos groups love America!":D

[BoulderDawg]

So, we can now say it was a Government program and not a bunch of "Neo instigators", correct?

And we can also say their goal is to obtain info on the targeted groups, not start fights at protests, correct?

"We" aren't saying anything along this line. Did you notice the date this ended? It was 1971. That was 38 years ago. Neo instigators are live and well. I've been to enough protest to know what I'm talking about. Take it as you like it.

[BoulderDawg]

btw...having grown up in poverty, Pedro feels that his newfound position and income are a blessing, and routinely gives to needy charities instead of being forced to cover for costly and bloated government programs.

Did I get that right, 1Bad?

Yep! You got it right as rain!:D

I haven't heard anything this funny since I left the south. The big joke down there was anyone can have a job as long as they will work for minimum wage and leave the white women alone!:D

Notice it was "Pedro" who grew up in proverty and should worship bossman for giving him a job. "John" owned the business. His good friend is "Phil". But notice it is "Pedro' who is workin hard to please bossman!:p

In any case you guys got it all figured out......What happens when the business starts losing money...How is a tax cut going to help then?

[1bad65]

Hardly, you are getting everythingthat you want except for the one intangible that you can't have right now. That is power.

The way I see the Democrats are bending over and grabbing their ankles in trying to please the Neos and basically they are getting everything they ask for.......the difference is that it's the Neos who have to do the asking........this is what they can't stomach.

BTY: I thought what was said in that report about military personal returning to the US and being a right wing security risk to average citizens was spot on. As I said, "The truth hurts". However you Neos have whined and cried about it so much the people up in Washington are just throwing up their hands and saying "Fine! Neos groups love America!":D

Contradict much? :rolleyes:

First Obama was giving us all that we wanted. Now he isn't.

First our troops were murdering rapists, then the ones coming back (if they even served at all) and making up horror stories were good guys, and now it's back to they are all security risks.

Which versions are true? Does it change daily?

[1bad65]

"We" aren't saying anything along this line. Did you notice the date this ended? It was 1971. That was 38 years ago. Neo instigators are live and well. I've been to enough protest to know what I'm talking about. Take it as you like it.

Actually YOU said it. :rolleyes:

And his article said they were likely still doing it, and used Greenpeace as an example of a targetted group.

It also mentioned NOTHING about the false and ridiculous allegations YOU made about them studying protests and choosing who to fight with. Speaking of that assertion, I'm still waiting on YOU (who made the allegation) to provide SOMETHING to back it up. Something, anything....

[1bad65]

What happens when the business starts losing money...How is a tax cut going to help then?

Are you really this dense?

Oh, yeah. You are.

[GLW]

"So, we can now say it was a Government program and not a bunch of "Neo instigators", correct?"

Not really. Although started in 1956, it continued on through Nixon's first term under that name. All indications are that when the Church report was issued, the program known as COINTELPRO was halted but the activities were continued under different names. Many of those involved were the same folks that were founders of the modern day neo-cons. So, in this instance, the line between government and neo instigator is at best blurred...and at worst, nonexistent.


"And we can also say their goal is to obtain info on the targeted groups, not start fights at protests, correct? "

Again, not really. Nominally, they were 'gathering information" but this is on record as including infiltration, propaganda, news reports that were not true, instigating incidents at what would have otherwise been peaceful rallies, and all the way up to threats, intimidation and physical violence.

One of the reasons that the Church report was so damaging way back when was that it showed that what people like Seales and Hoffman had been saying was in fact true. Those activities continued.... sort of like from the folks who gave you COINTELPRO, we give you version 2...3...and on up to Gitmo and Abu Ghraib....these were actually the same folks....which also blurred the lines between domestic and international....

Most middle of the road folks were unaware of what has been going on in their name for well over 30 years.

[BoulderDawg]

Are you really this dense?

Oh, yeah. You are.

It's simple. Instead of a personal attack why not just answer the question.

If my company has been losing money for the past year how is a corporate tax cut going to help me?

The question is simple and as straight forward as it gets.

[1bad65]

So it only happened under Nixon?

Is that what you're saying?

[1bad65]

Looks like those non-violent liberals aren't so nice:

"ST. PAUL, Minn. -- Former U.S. Sen. Norm Coleman says a young man on a bicycle threw eggs at his St. Paul house -- one day after judges ruled Democrat Al Franken won last year's Senate race.

Coleman, a Republican, told police he heard thumping Tuesday night and when he went outside, a man launched another egg -- and obscenities.

Coleman told the Pioneer Press he ducked in a "George Bush move," referring to how Bush dodged shoes thrown at him. Coleman said he chased the man, but didn't catch him.

St. Paul police are investigating. Someone also threw eggs at Coleman's house after the 2002 election."

I thought only "Neos" did violent things like attacking people's homes?

Sounds like Norm needs to get a shotgun and load it with rock salt.

[1bad65]

If my company has been losing money for the past year how is a corporate tax cut going to help me?

The question is simple and as straight forward as it gets.

Several ways.

First off, it would have allowed the business to keep more money in reserve to avoid bankruptcy during a few lean years. My company does business this way, and we are doing ok right now.

Second, that companies suppliers would be able to lower prices, thus helping the company in question reduce expenditures.

Third, cutting gas, electricity, phone, etc (ie energy) taxes will save the business money on their overhead as well.

There are other ways too, but 3 should suffice for this discussion.

One more thing, you rephrased the question. So I answered your ORIGINAL question. Not your amended one.

[BoulderDawg]

Looks like those non-violent liberals aren't so nice:

"ST. PAUL, Minn. -- Former U.S. Sen. Norm Coleman says a young man on a bicycle threw eggs at his St. Paul house -- one day after judges ruled Democrat Al Franken won last year's Senate race.

Coleman, a Republican, told police he heard thumping Tuesday night and when he went outside, a man launched another egg -- and obscenities.

Coleman told the Pioneer Press he ducked in a "George Bush move," referring to how Bush dodged shoes thrown at him. Coleman said he chased the man, but didn't catch him.

St. Paul police are investigating. Someone also threw eggs at Coleman's house after the 2002 election."

I thought only "Neos" did violent things like attacking people's homes?

Sounds like Norm needs to get a shotgun and load it with rock salt.

Yep! I can see Coleman (who weighs all of a 110 pounds soaking wet) running out into the street to face a black guy on a bicycle. :D

Did anyone else see this guy? If it really did happen how do you know it was about politics?

My guess is that if this really did happen the "Black guy" on the bicycle was probably around 12 years old....This was the reason Coleman was so brave going out to confront him.

[BoulderDawg]

Several ways.

First off, it would have allowed the business to keep more money in reserve to avoid bankruptcy during a few lean years. My company does business this way, and we are doing ok right now.

How? Where does this extra money come from? In case you didn't read the question: The company has been losing money......Guess how much coporate tax we owe? You cut taxes 100% or raise taxes 100% it will still equal zero!:D


Second, that companies suppliers would be able to lower prices, thus helping the company in question reduce expenditures.

Your the one so big on the law of supply and demand. If all profitable companies have exrtra money from their tax cuts and are willing to buy more then what do you think is going to happen to prices with an increase in demand?


Third, cutting gas, electricity, phone, etc (ie energy) taxes will save the business money on their overhead as well.

What does that have to do with corporate taxes?

[1bad65]

Yep! I can see Coleman (who weighs all of a 110 pounds soaking wet) running out into the street to face a black guy on a bicycle. :D

Did anyone else see this guy? If it really did happen how do you know it was about politics?

My guess is that if this really did happen the "Black guy" on the bicycle was probably around 12 years old....This was the reason Coleman was so brave going out to confront him.

Where in the article did it say the suspect was black?

Racist.

[BoulderDawg]

Knee jerk reaction. Whenever something like this happens it's always a black guy that gets accused of doing it.

Guess I should have known that no black guy would be allowed to ride his bike in Coleman's neighborhood!:D

[GLW]

Jeez Bad, you are accusing BD of density and you ask that question...

It was officially outed just after Nixon. It was OFFICIALLY recognized by the Church report. The information on all of it was classified and tons of Freedom of Information Act suits got severely redacted copies which then getting the real information carried on and on.

There were some denials but all investigations I have seen that were conducted by independent agencies have led to the conclusion that the COINTELPRO practices have continued - so NO - it was NOT just a Nixon thing.

It went a bit underground under Carter - one of his problems was he actually tried to clean up some of the agencies like that.

It was back under Reagan and Bush I but not as big a deal since the protests were mainly the environmentalists and those who actually thought Iran Contra was significant enough to protest (which has since been shown to be pretty much true - it WAS)

The sword had two edges under Clinton - some were doing their old work and others were investigating the Clintons...then it was back full force with Bush II...

[1bad65]

You're on ignore now.

I just can't deal with a racist pos like you.

And you should apologize for your racism, but I'm not holding my breath. Racist trash like you rarely apologize for what they are.

[1bad65]

Thanks GLW.

I just wanted it known it was done under both liberal and conservative Administrations.

[BoulderDawg]

You're on ignore now.

I just can't deal with a racist pos like you.

And you should apologize for your racism, but I'm not holding my breath. Racist trash like you rarely apologize for what they are.

Fine by me. Your only response to anything is personal attack. Straight out of the Neo playbook!:D

[BoulderDawg]

One last thing on Norm Coleman:

He has 10 days to file an appeal of this recent ruling by the court......

Any bets on when he'll file his appeal? My prediction is at 4:45 in the afternoon on the tenth day.

Gotta string it out for as long as possible!;)

[GLW]

Unfortunately, when it comes to governments, liberal/conservative distinctions only go so far.

The infrastructure of people who are doing the COINTELPRO type of things are - drumrolll - NOT elected people. In fact, often, they are zealots that both sides make use of...for different motivations, of course, but nonetheless...

In fact, it has been supposed by more than just the tinfoil hat crowd that when and if a person is elected and they look into these dealings, should they take umbrage and try to expose or end them, they often end up discredited, bought off, or dead.

One of the major issues with Jimmy Carter's administration - aside from all of the other things that can be said for good or bad - was that he truly wanted to reform the way the CIA and NSA operated. He wanted to more or less reign them in from their ignore the rules way. The higher ups of the CIA were none too happy with that. Then, given that the head guy was - drumroll - George H. W. Bush, their cooperation with the White House was minimal. Funny how a CIA like action that was the precursor of Iran Contra was a meeting that even Soviet Intel says took place between Iran and George Bush when Reagan/Bush were running against Carter... involved the previous head of it - Bush. There was also the incident where by some quirk, Carter's playbook for the debates ended up in Reagan's staff's hands...(no one ever said what else might have ended up there)

But all of this points to the fact that the administrations involved have SOME but not ultimate authority in reigning in this propagandist / instigationist intel program conducted against US citizens.

[1bad65]

I just wanted it known it was not some "vast right-wing conspiracy", that it was Government made, Government sponsored, and Government ran.

I'm not defending or attacking the program either. I'm just stating it's been used by Administrations of all political leanings.

[Drake]

If a company, say...Phil's Housewares (fictional) were to begin losing money consistently, it would indicate the company is not productive and will eventually fail. In it's place, a vacuum would open up, allowing for another, more savvy and wise, company to fill the need. Unlike now, where we keep bloated companies afloat via gov't intervention, while they are virtually gushing with losses. Guess there won't be a spot for "Ajax Motors" to rise up and more effectively run an auto industry.

And if the need for a specific product goes away, say, horse-drawn carriages, then it is up to the company to recognize the market is drying up and move to something else.

[KC Elbows]

Thanks for the info.

So, we can now say it was a Government program and not a bunch of "Neo instigators", correct?

And we can also say their goal is to obtain info on the targeted groups, not start fights at protests, correct?

Not exactly, from Wikipedia:

According to FBI records, 85% of COINTELPRO resources were expended on infiltrating, disrupting, marginalizing, and/or subverting groups suspected of being subversive,[3] such as communist and socialist organizations; the women's rights movement; people suspected of building a "coalition of militant black nationalist groups" ranging from the Black Panther Party and Republic of New Afrika to "those in the non-violent civil rights movement" such as Martin Luther King, Jr. and others associated with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the Congress of Racial Equality, and other civil rights groups; a broad range of organizations labelled "New Left", including Students for a Democratic Society, the National Lawyers Guild, the Weathermen, almost all groups protesting the Vietnam War, and even individual student demonstrators with no group affiliation; and nationalist groups such as those "seeking independence for Puerto Rico." The other 15% of COINTELPRO resources were expended to marginalize and subvert "white hate groups," including the Ku Klux Klan and National States' Rights Party. [4]

Infiltrating, disrupting, marginalizing, subverting, these were not investigative tasks, and almost all the groups mentioned, including virtually every anti-war group, were legal organizations, and the activity, a violation of their rights.

Who decided who was to be investigated, Hoover, Nixon, and their cronies, among whom were people who would hold to the same illegal conduct under W Bush.

Also from Wikipedia:

Congress and several court cases[8] later concluded that the COINTELPRO operations against communist and socialist groups exceeded statutory limits on FBI activity and violated Constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and association.

So these were not legal, but illegal activities, against US citizens.

From the Church proceedings:

"...the Bureau conducted a sophisticated vigilante operation aimed squarely at preventing the exercise of First Amendment rights of speech and association, on the theory that preventing the growth of dangerous groups and the propagation of dangerous ideas would protect the national security and deter violence."[/i]

Bureau witnesses admit that many of the targets were nonviolent

nonviolent organizations and individuals were targeted because the Bureau believed they represented a "potential" for violence -- and nonviolent citizens who were against the war in Vietnam were targeted because they gave "aid and comfort" to violent demonstrators by lending respectability to their cause.

the nonviolent Southern Christian Leadership Conference was labeled as a Black Nationalist-"Hate Group."


from wikipedia again:

In one particularly controversial 1965 incident, civil rights worker Viola Liuzzo was murdered by Ku Klux Klansmen who gave chase and fired shots into her car after noticing that her passenger was a young black man; one of the Klansmen was acknowledged FBI informant Gary Thomas Rowe.[22][23] Afterward COINTELPRO spread false rumors that Liuzzo was a member of the Communist Party and abandoned her children to have sexual relationships with African Americans involved in the civil rights movement.[24][25][26] [27] FBI informant Rowe has also been implicated in some of the most violent crimes of the 1960s civil rights era, including attacks on the Freedom Riders and the 1963 Birmingham, Alabama 16th Street Baptist Church bombing.[28] In another instance in San Diego the FBI financed, armed, and controlled an extreme right-wing group of former Minutemen, transforming it into a group called the Secret Army Organization [b]which targeted groups, activists, and leaders involved in the ant-War Movement for both intimidation and violent acts.[29][30][31][32]

So, not like real police, more like thugs and traitors.

Yes, it has existed under different banners, but the use of it, especially the heavy handed use of it, has fallen to those most touched by the Nixon bug, for example Karl Rove, and **** Cheney, whose histories are not exactly lacking "illegally using executive power against American citizens for purely partisan reasons"(see: Valery Plame).

[1bad65]

Drake once again hits the nail on the head.

[1bad65]

As to COINTELPRO, it's been shown that ALL Administrations have used it. None of them disbanded it. While you can be upset at the choice of 'targets' under Republicans, the other side never killed the program.

And don't forget, the government has admitted to infiltrating and paying informants to spy on religious groups (like the Branch Davidians), innocent civilians (like Randy Weaver), and on groups who only want small government and gun rights. In Weaver's case, his wife and son were killed by the Government based on a ATF agent's words. And Weaver was never even charged for the alleged crime that brought the Government to his house where his family members were gunned down.

It cuts both ways.

[Drake]

"Against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

I don't see the problem.

[GLW]

bad, you make some rather foolish assumptions about people and their motives.

COINTELPRO was wrong under Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon...and their successor organizations that fp;;wed and had some role since then.

Those of us objecting to them do not give a rat's a$$ who is in charge of them...we typically feel that such use of government and intimidation, spying, and such is wrong.

Most often, those that are targets are NOT enemies foreign ordomestic of the US government. They are actually citizens who disagree with their government and are vocal about it.

In fact, tactics such as those used by COINTELPRO actually make those they are infiltrating MORE extreme since they are being proven right about their feelings that the govt is abusing its power on a daily basis.

It is similar to the old lines that they give about marijuana being a gateway drug ...oooh...you smoke that stuff and in 2 weeks you are shooting heroin. The end result for a lot of young people has been "They lied about marijuana...maybe they are lying about the other drugs too..." and so the experimentation goes further than it would have if honest information had been given instead of scare tactics

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I think part of the reason marijuana is illegal is because the government hasn't felt that it could effectively regulate and tax it. If it were all of a sudden legalized, everybody and their grandmother would be growing it. Of course they know it's not a dangerous narcotic:rolleyes: They just don't want people having a good time without paying for it. I was at a Warriors game the other day and pints of Bud and Bud Lite were going for $8.50 a pop! Of course, that was 'cause venders realized they could rip everyone off with impunity, but that's how the government works too when it comes to drugs.

I, for one, don't think the CIA (Cocaine Import Agency) or the DEA are in the business of stopping illegal drugs at all really. Strangely, the problem has gotten exponentially worse no matter how much they're budgets have gone up throughout the decades. Drugs like cocaine have been worth a great deal more to them being illegal. It's only now that states are strapped for cash and realizing they're wasting money going after marijuana that they're seriously discussing legalizing it and regulating it for revenue. It just might happen if those buzzkill Federal Agencies don't have anything to say about it.

[BoulderDawg]

I think part of the reason marijuana is illegal is because the government hasn't felt that it could effectively regulate and tax it. If it were all of a sudden legalized, everybody and their grandmother would be growing it. Of course they know it's not a dangerous narcotic:rolleyes: They just don't want people having a good time without paying for it. I was at a Warriors game the other day and pints of Bud and Bud Lite were going for $8.50 a pop! Of course, that was 'cause venders realized they could rip everyone off with impunity, but that's how the government works too when it comes to drugs.


Let them.....Because to grow it and grow it right takes some skill. I see this as no more of a problem then the people who brew their own beer. Anyway you wouldn't want to use the weed that Billy Bob grew out behind his trailer.

Amsterdam has the right idea. They manage to keep the quality high and prices low....and I'm sure they get their tax cut.

I was a little miffed several weeks ago at Obama. At a internet town hall meeting he was asked if legalizing marijuana would help the economy. He answered the question by making a big joke about it. Some of us don't see it as a laughing matter.

As far as the Marijuana to heroin connecting goes, It's true that probably no heroin junkies has ever not used marijuana. But that's bacause they have an addictive personality. The truth is that I've never known a H junkie who didn't smoke cigarettes however there are a lot of people who use reefer that don't smoke.

[Kansuke]

I was a little miffed several weeks ago at Obama. At a internet town hall meeting he was asked if legalizing marijuana would help the economy. He answered the question by making a big joke about it. Some of us don't see it as a laughing matter.




Really? I thought you stupid pot heads giggled at everything.

[BoulderDawg]

Interesting story about Roxana Saberi, a 31-year-old Iranian-American from North Dakota. She was the journalist who was just sentenced to prison in Iran for spying.

What can anyone say. She was stupid enough to volunteer to go over there and spy for the Bush admin and she was caught. Maybe, if she survives prison, she'll learn.

I thought is was funny that Sec Clinton said she was disappointed by it but did not deny the lady was a spy.

[1bad65]

I think part of the reason marijuana is illegal is because the government hasn't felt that it could effectively regulate and tax it.

Don't worry, if it's legalized they will find a way to tax it. Now they are considering taxing the 'Net, a tax even Clinton was against.

FYI, government is already profiting legally in the 'War on Drugs'. Through unconstitutional siezure laws, the government indeed is able to profit off of ALLEGED criminal activity.

[Drake]

1Bad...in all due fairness, they've been hinting about taxing the internet since, like, AOL 2.5.

[1bad65]

1Bad...in all due fairness, they've been hinting about taxing the internet since, like, AOL 2.5.

Agreed. But you know it's alot more likely to happen under Comrade Obama than under any previous Administration.

[David Jamieson]

Doesn't anyone bother with the order of questions being asked?

Like : why does the internet exist? or, why did the US military release the use of the internet to the public?

The internet was originally a closed network called arpanet that was for exclusive use of the US military and universities that carried out research on their behalf.

It was unleashed into the public domain some time ago and has been used as a tool for everything from things like this forum, to file sharing to research to espionage and theft.

It's an advancement and a burden at the same time! lol

But seriously, ask the right questions first. As for Obama bringing change, do you think he hasn't already? lol

[SharkyT]

You're on ignore now.

I just can't deal with a racist pos like you.

And you should apologize for your racism, but I'm not holding my breath. Racist trash like you rarely apologize for what they are.

You are so full of ****, Lee Harvey. You admitted to listening to Rush Limbaugh and his hateful racial spew. Now you turn around and call someone a racist . WTF. Oldest trick in the book, turn point your finger at someone else and accuse them of something you are. Neo's book of hypocrisy, it is evident you have read it.

[1bad65]

Like : why does the internet exist? or, why did the US military release the use of the internet to the public?

The internet was originally a closed network called arpanet that was for exclusive use of the US military and universities that carried out research on their behalf.

Did the military have to authorize it's release to the public?

I'm no 'Net historian, but I've never heard that before. I do know it was used primarily by universities and researchers before it exploded in popularity.

[BoulderDawg]

You are so full of ****, Lee Harvey. You admitted to listening to Rush Limbaugh and his hateful racial spew. Now you turn around and call someone a racist . WTF. Oldest trick in the book, turn point your finger at someone else and accuse them of something you are. Neo's book of hypocrisy, it is evident you have read it.


You're right. The difference between liberals and Neos are we debate racial topics with the hopes to educate and maybe bring about change. The Neos only use it as a politcal tool.

Being racist? I've often heard Neos say "I don't have a racist bone in my body" or "Some of my best friends are black"......these are sure signs of a hard core racist. I personally believe that everyone is a racist to some degree. We all identify with our own kind. The important thing is to recognize it and understand how you are alike and different from other people.

[David Jamieson]

Did the military have to authorize it's release to the public?

I'm no 'Net historian, but I've never heard that before. I do know it was used primarily by universities and researchers before it exploded in popularity.

The pentagon has been running the USA since the demise of Eisenhower.

You didn't notice yet? lol

[Baqualin]

The pentagon has been running the USA since the demise of Eisenhower.

You didn't notice yet? lol

Ok, but who's running the pentagon?
BQ

[David Jamieson]

Ok, but who's running the pentagon?
BQ

vendors mainly. :)

[Mas Judt]

The only discourse I have seen on the left in regards to race has been decisive and destructive. The left has klansmen serving in office and groups that identify themselves solely on race.

If you can't see the inherent racism and control techniques in Democrartic party you're blind.

(I'm not completly exonerating the right, but I've met more 'race-free' folks who were libertarian in view than the left - where almost everyone seems to be angry and full of hate.)

[David Jamieson]

The only discourse I have seen on the left in regards to race has been decisive and destructive. The left has klansmen serving in office and groups that identify themselves solely on race.

If you can't see the inherent racism and control techniques in Democrartic party you're blind.

(I'm not completly exonerating the right, but I've met more 'race-free' folks who were libertarian in view than the left - where almost everyone seems to be angry and full of hate.)

racism is generally an individual thing and has little if anything to do with political party choices.

[Drake]

The pentagon has been running the USA since the demise of Eisenhower.

You didn't notice yet? lol

Have you even ever BEEN to the Pentagon?

[Kansuke]

The only discourse I have seen on the left in regards to race has been decisive and destructive. The left has klansmen serving in office and groups that identify themselves solely on race.

If you can't see the inherent racism and control techniques in Democrartic party you're blind.

(I'm not completly exonerating the right, but I've met more 'race-free' folks who were libertarian in view than the left - where almost everyone seems to be angry and full of hate.)



Very well said.

[David Jamieson]

Have you even ever BEEN to the Pentagon?

lol. I get what you mean...but when half your budget goes there and a great deal of decisions are made there...well, the sky is blue now isn't it? :)

[Kansuke]

lol. I get what you mean...but when half your budget goes there and a great deal of decisions are made there...well, the sky is blue now isn't it? :)

Inaccurate information and illogical conclusion.

[Baqualin]

vendors mainly. :)

Not a bad answer:):):)
BQ

[Baqualin]

racism is generally an individual thing and has little if anything to do with political party choices.

Yes but people who think alike tend to group together, eh
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

WOO-HOO!!!!!!!!!! I just got back from the 420 smoke out at CU!!!!!!! Now there was a tea party! :D I'm guessing at least, AT LEAST 30,000 people having a good time and telling the government that we want marijuana legal now!

Wonder if this Tea party will get any coverage from Fixed news!:p

[Drake]

lol. I get what you mean...but when half your budget goes there and a great deal of decisions are made there...well, the sky is blue now isn't it? :)

Point is, most of that money goes to boring things. The logistics for an Army of this size is enormous, so instead of thinking we're out there making Skynet (which we are, muaahahahaha), understand that the budget is actually pretty dry material.

[Lokhopkuen]

Point is, most of that money goes to boring things. The logistics for an Army of this size is enormous, so instead of thinking we're out there making Skynet (which we are, muaahahahaha), understand that the budget is actually pretty dry material.

SKYNET (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyD5BYuMFaA):rolleyes:

[Lokhopkuen]

Point is, most of that money goes to boring things. The logistics for an Army of this size is enormous, so instead of thinking we're out there making Skynet (which we are, muaahahahaha), understand that the budget is actually pretty dry material.

Oh and they're Replacing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2bExqhhWRI) Rangers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZtlTHEHj4M) so you may wanna look for another job bubb......

[David Jamieson]

Inaccurate information and illogical conclusion.

well, you're out of touch, that much is clear. You should get out into the world more and maybe learn something about the USA. lol


Total Outlays (Federal Funds): $2,650 billion
MILITARY: 54% and $1,449 billion
NON-MILITARY: 46% and $1,210 billion <<<<this is 2009 budget.

[1bad65]

I'm still waiting for your source that says the military ok'd releasing the Net to the general public....



<<<<this is 2009 budget.

Can you provide a link to that as well?

[Kansuke]

Defense is about 20% of the budget, and the military is subservient to the civilian government.

Why don't you travel and try to become more enlightened?

[1bad65]

Speaking of racism, we can all see who the racist here is, and what side of the isle he is on.

[Baqualin]

Hey BD...looks like you have a new hero to worship.....Daniel Andreas Left wing extremist & animal rights activist just got on the FBI's most wanted list.....2003 bombing of 2 corp. offices in California.
BQ

[David Jamieson]

Defense is about 20% of the budget, and the military is subservient to the civilian government.

Why don't you travel and try to become more enlightened?

what country are you talking about? Because if it's the USA, you are wrong. Seriously.

1bad, you do realize that your government runs a website that provides all this data for you as a citizen in a transparent manner....well, It does now anyway, maybe it didn't for the previous 8 years due to ..well whatever, but they do a pretty good job of it now, so moving on.

anything you need to know about the agenda of the obama admin go to http://www.whitehouse.gov

for budgetary questions, go to http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/

enjoy, and kansuke, try to get out more and learn about tech world ok? thanks. :)

[1bad65]

for budgetary questions, go to http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/

I'm not about to read the entire budget and figure out what percentage is for the military.

YOU made the assertion, so YOU need to provide the proof.

Remember, you have been nailed making up 'facts' before.

[Kansuke]

what country are you talking about? Because if it's the USA, you are wrong. Seriously.



Not according to the CBO. Seriously.


Why don't you worry about your own backwater country for a while, champ?

[Mas Judt]

What makes this interesting is that we have two strands of the left here:

David, who appears to be a post-modern progressive rationalist - the sort of chap who uses reason and logic to derive his views - you may disagree with his ai priori assumptions or even his logic - but you cannot deny he seeks to operate in the world.

Boluder Dawg - who is well, typical of what happened to the American left. The proto-fascist, any crome that supports my cause is good, and I'll believe anything I'm told if it comes from my lords and masters or makes me populat with the angry in-crowd.

Me, I'm an imperfect Libertarian - who would really like to be left alone, but instead sees a complex, interconnected world with serious problems caused by human activity - just NOT THE PROBLEMS the powers that want to scare us yap about. (well mostly).

We live in a sleeping world.

While I disagree with Obama on a great, great many things - I like it when transparency increases (even though they are very selective) - I'd like to see some actual character as well - instead of the Dems backing up every criminal they have in office.

And, I actually approve of his approach in Latin America - I just wish he was as open minded with his fellow Americans as he is with despots.

The tea parties however are great fun - notice NO politicians were allowed. People are catching on to how the parties game the system. And boy oh boy the media peeps hate it. Don't they realize 'It's the stupidity, stupid.'

Meanwhile more and more laws are being passed by the left to shut up the average citizen. Which should be expected if you review the 'progressive' philosophy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHgUE9AD4s

[David Jamieson]

I'm not about to read the entire budget and figure out what percentage is for the military.

YOU made the assertion, so YOU need to provide the proof.

Remember, you have been nailed making up 'facts' before.

You want proof, but you don't want to read it.

How shall I transmit it directly into your consciousness then?

You see how your laziness impedes your thinking and your argument here right?

yeesh.

[B-Rad]

Quote:
Total Outlays (Federal Funds): $2,650 billion
MILITARY: 54% and $1,449 billion
NON-MILITARY: 46% and $1,210 billion
<<<<this is 2009 budget.

Where did you get those numbers?

[1bad65]

Where did you get those numbers?

Notice he has failed to provide that information. :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

You want proof, but you don't want to read it.

Show me where to see the numbers YOU posted.

Again, I'm not going to read the entire budget. Hell, it's now known that a majority of Congressmen didn't even read it.

YOU provided the totals and percentages. All we ask is for YOU provide the link where YOU got those figures from.

[Baqualin]

Show me where to see the numbers YOU posted.

Again, I'm not going to read the entire budget. Hell, it's now known that a majority of Congressmen didn't even read it.

YOU provided the totals and percentages. All we ask is for YOU provide the link where YOU got those figures from.

Hey Bad,
He did provide a link http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/ a couple of post back.....I went to it and could not find those exact figures....I did see where the defense budget is almost half. Of course I'm at work and have to jump on and off here....so I didn't have time to look close.
BQ

[Baqualin]

What makes this interesting is that we have two strands of the left here:

David, who appears to be a post-modern progressive rationalist - the sort of chap who uses reason and logic to derive his views - you may disagree with his ai priori assumptions or even his logic - but you cannot deny he seeks to operate in the world.

Boluder Dawg - who is well, typical of what happened to the American left. The proto-fascist, any crome that supports my cause is good, and I'll believe anything I'm told if it comes from my lords and masters or makes me populat with the angry in-crowd.

Me, I'm an imperfect Libertarian - who would really like to be left alone, but instead sees a complex, interconnected world with serious problems caused by human activity - just NOT THE PROBLEMS the powers that want to scare us yap about. (well mostly).

We live in a sleeping world.

While I disagree with Obama on a great, great many things - I like it when transparency increases (even though they are very selective) - I'd like to see some actual character as well - instead of the Dems backing up every criminal they have in office.

And, I actually approve of his approach in Latin America - I just wish he was as open minded with his fellow Americans as he is with despots.

The tea parties however are great fun - notice NO politicians were allowed. People are catching on to how the parties game the system. And boy oh boy the media peeps hate it. Don't they realize 'It's the stupidity, stupid.'

Meanwhile more and more laws are being passed by the left to shut up the average citizen. Which should be expected if you review the 'progressive' philosophy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHgUE9AD4s

Nailed it again:)

[B-Rad]

Checking the links he provided, our defense budget adds up to around 600 billion when you add in the supplemental budget. I think the wars are counted separately according to some websites I've peeked at and their own budget comes to around 200 billion dollar estimate (not all of it is military spending so they have their own budget I guess?). I suppose if you add in everything in our country involving security (cyber crimes, FBI, CIA, police agencies, etc.) you can end up with something close to what DJ is giving. Just a guess though. I'm not going to do a complete research paper for a bunch of knuckleheads on a kungfu forum :p

[BoulderDawg]

Boluder Dawg - who is well, typical of what happened to the American left. The proto-fascist, any crome that supports my cause is good, and I'll believe anything I'm told if it comes from my lords and masters or makes me populat with the angry in-crowd.

The tea parties however are great fun - notice NO politicians were allowed. People are catching on to how the parties game the system. And boy oh boy the media peeps hate it. Don't they realize 'It's the stupidity, stupid.'



Seems I heard someone call Obama a fascist too. The Neos are really getting desparate. They throw names out there without having a clue as to their meanings...par for the course. Considering the popularity of the GOP I wonder how long it will be before one of them calls Obama a Republican!:p

No politicians allowed!......Really? Oh well, I don't consider the Texas Governor a politician anyway. Funny that at the 420 Smoke Out I attended in Boulder yesterday was not even mentioned over at Fox News yet, in my estimation, at least 30,000 people were there. And guess what.......Everyone was welcomed even politicians and I bet we had more fun than those at the tea parties!:D:D:D

[BoulderDawg]

Don't ya just love that John McCann!:D

During the campaign when he needed the support of the Neos it was "I am the conservative candidate!" and even reversed a few previous statements he had made that were less than conservative!

Now-a-days when being associated with the GOP is like having the plague he's starting to back off. Notice the statement on Jay Leno where he hung his VP choice out to dry. It also been said he is behind his daughters recent attacks on the Neo right.

John McCann's current views and morality is whatever will benefit John McCann at the time!

[GLW]

Well, what was good for the auto industry and the numbers is good here....

The extra percentage points come from the inclusion of Veteran's benefits (VA, education, treatment, etc...)

Actually, that is not that far fetched(the inclusion of the benefits in the military expenditures) since the government would not spend that money if it were not mandated by the contract agreed to with the soldier when they enlisted.

When you put that one in there, you get to around 54% of the budget.

[BoulderDawg]

For a little lite hearted news:

There is a big flap over the Miss USA contest and the question on gay marriage. Why? :D

Personally, in my opinion, gay marriage does not rank up there with one of the world most important issues. In my opinion the government should not be in the marriage business (gay or straight) anyway. That's a religious thing.

I thought the lady answered the question as best she could. She expressed her opinion and that's all you can do. But this guy calling her a "B"? He must be one of those Log Cabin guys!:eek: He sure isn't liberal.

[David Jamieson]

Show me where to see the numbers YOU posted.

Again, I'm not going to read the entire budget. Hell, it's now known that a majority of Congressmen didn't even read it.

YOU provided the totals and percentages. All we ask is for YOU provide the link where YOU got those figures from.

I'm sorry are you asking me to do your work for you? lol really?? LOL AWESOME! +100 for openly admitting you can't do simple math, addition, multiplication, subtraction, dicvision and percentages. It's pretty basic stuff after all, but I guess they don't do that in your school? what is it?

Do your own work. even if you do a rough estimate on what is at THE OFFICIAL WHITEHOUSE SITE of the USA government you will find that I am correct and you are bleating and foot stamping to gain some distraction away from the FACT that you are wrong in assuming in regards to military expenditures.

but that's ok, you're wrong about a lot of things and here's a multi page thread that just proves that, over and over and over again and remarkably, you keep adding to the pile of errors almost daily!

beautiful! rock on!

lol

You may now return to your daily scheduled **** throwing festival.

cheerios! :)

[1bad65]

I'm sorry are you asking me to do your work for you? lol really?? LOL AWESOME! +100 for openly admitting you can't do simple math, addition, multiplication, subtraction, dicvision and percentages. It's pretty basic stuff after all, but I guess they don't do that in your school? what is it?

I just asked for the link with the final figures. The one YOU posted. We still haven't gotten that.

And pardon me for trying to nail you down on facts. Again, you've been caught red-handed making up things to try and strengthen your arguments.

[1bad65]

Nailed it again:)

Yeah, he hit that nail on the head.

[Mas Judt]

Boulder Dawg - you seem to think that John McCain represents a liberty-minded view-point. He does not. He reflects the same general policies of the Democrats - just moving at a slower pace.

And Obama IS a fascist - a softer/gentler one, but he fits the definition. He aggresively seeks nationalization of industries to the best of his ability, he seeks to redistribute wealth, he seeks to replace private charity and private health care with government programs, he is corporatist in his approach to this --- he fits right in with the soft fascism that we have seen since the end of WW2. He thinks government is the answer to all of man's ills. This is a common power paradigm for those that have a post-modern Nietzhkian (SP) influence.

While I support Ron Paul, mostly for his ability to ask important questions and bring greater intellect to the debate, I am not an absolute libertarian. I'm happy to pay taxes to pay for schools - although I think it should be a voucher system versus the corrupt union-led failure we have.

But I am pro-union - just as a corporation is collective bargaining, so is a union. but I don't believe in monolithic all powerful unions like the Teachers union, just as I'm opposed to the change in banking regulations back in the 80's that created 'national banks' in the US.

Heck, I don't care if you smoke pot (Although i think it is a habit for weak people), but as an employer I should ave the right to not hire pot smokers.

What really concerns me is the low level of actual intellectual debate among our elite classes. When you have J. Garafolo calling the teaparty protestore 'redneck, rascist, teabaggers who can't stand having a black President...' REALLY? REALLY? The hatred and the lies and the Orwellian language from the left should frighten any citizen.

And the 'neo-cons' are not true conservatives. They are an evolution of the progressive movement on the right. We need to reclaim the word 'liberal' for it's true meaning.

[BoulderDawg]

I guess that's why McCain voted 95% with the Bush admin!:eek:

In any case I can take any political philosophy, twist it around a little bit, fudge a little on the facts, only focus on a few points and apply it to anyone.

Obama is nationalizing industry......:D Sure thing! The only place I can imagine you are getting this from is the bailouts. Guess what, these companies had the option to take the money or not take the money.

However I will tell you how the vast majority will see this new attack on Obama:

Most Americans equate fascism with Hitler and the Nazis....I can see that and have no problem with it. And now along comes main stream republicans calling Obama a fascist....You guys might as well do the old pictures of Obama with a Nazi uniform, swastika...the whole bit.

Most Americans will be replused by this little stragedy.

[Mas Judt]

I guess that's why McCain voted 95% with the Bush admin!:eek:

In any case I can take any political philosophy, twist it around a little bit, fudge a little on the facts, only focus on a few points and apply it to anyone.

Obama is nationalizing industry......:D Sure thing! The only place I can imagine you are getting this from is the bailouts. Guess what, these companies had the option to take the money or not take the money.

However I will tell you how the vast majority will see this new attack on Obama:

Most Americans equate fascism with Hitler and the Nazis....I can see that and have no problem with it. And now along comes main stream republicans calling Obama a fascist....You guys might as well do the old pictures of Obama with a Nazi uniform, swastika...the whole bit.

Most Americans will be replused by this little stragedy.

It's sad, because it demonstrates a level of ignorance about our own past that is very frightening. Fascism or corporatism has American origins - in the old 'Progressive' party and the 'Democrat' party under Woodrow Wilson.

Many of our allies in Europe follow soft-fascist policies. It is this lack of understanding of what we have lost as a nation in regards to our civil rights and our contract with the government that is allowing the 'average' person be merrily sold down the road to serfdom.

And you can't even see the road for what it is.

[1bad65]

It's sad, because it demonstrates a level of ignorance about our own past that is very frightening.

And you can't even see the road for what it is.

Dude, you're trying to debate with a space cadet who thinks a white guy with a spray-on tan is an Indian.

[1bad65]

I do think it's funny how the liberals are up in arms about calling a Socialist intent on nationalizing industries a fascist, yet they were the same ones calling George W Bush a fascist for the last 8 years.

[BoulderDawg]

The main gist of Corporate fascism (Or whatever you call it) is forced nationalism. The fascists ideology represents forced control of the people. One party, highly, highly nationalistic.

It's not the liberals who complain about nonconformity and radial ideas. Wasn't it Bush who said "You're either with us or against us"? Isn't it conservatives who want to make things like burning the flag illegal?

[BoulderDawg]

Cheney....what a joke.

Last night he said he had formally requested to the CIA that they release documents after torture at G Bay......yet funny thing, the CIA has just said that's news to them....They know nothing about any sort of request!:D

[SharkyT]

The only discourse I have seen on the left in regards to race has been decisive and destructive. The left has klansmen serving in office and groups that identify themselves solely on race.

If you can't see the inherent racism and control techniques in Democrartic party you're blind.

(I'm not completly exonerating the right, but I've met more 'race-free' folks who were libertarian in view than the left - where almost everyone seems to be angry and full of hate.)

Dude
What fantasy world do you ****ing live in?Inherent racism in the dem party? That statement earns you the Carlos Mencia's DEE DEE DEE award.Republican are known as a racist party. To say it is not , shows your blind ****ing ignorance. Republicans/ GOP are known for racist voter suppression, Goldwater's racist strategy of the South,in which the GOP stills use today. If you would not in a ****ing coma last year, Republican selling boxes obama waffles at their convention, watermelon postcards send out by Republican Politician, the Magic Negro song, Palin rallies,all happening during the presidential election. They tried to emphasize during election, Obama is different from you, he is not one of us strategy Left wingers are known for being more accepting of others...than the right. Why do you find very small numbers of blacks in the republican party...( even though many older blacks have fundamentally religious conservatism, more in line with repub party)...because it is known for racism. Then again with your ****ked up thinking, you probably think blacks and other minorities join to democratic party....for chicken and watermelon, tortillas, kool cigarettes,40 ounces rather than for social and political agenda that would benefit thier families and communities. I know in your fuccked alternate world, minorities are too dumb to realize what is in thier best interest, and that repub party are waiting to welcome minorities in harmony , share kumbaya moments...... .
I can see why people on the left, appear angry and mad to you...due to your ignorant ass statements.

[SharkyT]

Cheney....what a joke.

Last night he said he had formally requested to the CIA that they release documents after torture at G Bay......yet funny thing, the CIA has just said that's news to them....They know nothing about any sort of request!:D

Darth Penguin strikes

[1bad65]

The top 3 job markets in America:

1) Houston
2) Austin
3) Dallas-Ft Worth

And we are one of the most conservative states. Go figure.

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/slideshow/51.html?page=1

[1bad65]

And we also have the Top 5 hottest housing markets as well:

1) Houston
2) Austin
3) Fort Worth
4) San Antonio
5) Dallas

http://www.texaswideopenforbusiness.com/news/Texas-is-Home-to-Top-5-Housing-Markets-for-2009.html

Original source:
http://www.builderonline.com/local-markets/the-healthiest-housing-markets-for-2009.aspx

[Baqualin]

Dude
What fantasy world do you ****ing live in?Inherent racism in the dem party? That statement earns you the Carlos Mencia's DEE DEE DEE award.Republican are known as a racist party. To say it is not , shows your blind ****ing ignorance. Republicans/ GOP are known for racist voter suppression, Goldwater's racist strategy of the South,in which the GOP stills use today. If you would not in a ****ing coma last year, Republican selling boxes obama waffles at their convention, watermelon postcards send out by Republican Politician, the Magic Negro song, Palin rallies,all happening during the presidential election. They tried to emphasize during election, Obama is different from you, he is not one of us strategy Left wingers are known for being more accepting of others...than the right. Why do you find very small numbers of blacks in the republican party...( even though many older blacks have fundamentally religious conservatism, more in line with repub party)...because it is known for racism. Then again with your ****ked up thinking, you probably think blacks and other minorities join to democratic party....for chicken and watermelon, tortillas, kool cigarettes,40 ounces rather than for social and political agenda that would benefit thier families and communities. I know in your fuccked alternate world, minorities are too dumb to realize what is in thier best interest, and that repub party are waiting to welcome minorities in harmony , share kumbaya moments...... .
I can see why people on the left, appear angry and mad to you...due to your ignorant ass statements.

I'm neither Republican or Democrat and you need to take a closer look around you today and research your history a little.
BQ

[SharkyT]

I'm neither Republican or Democrat and you need to take a closer look around you today and research your history a little.
BQ

Dude,
As a minority ( foriegn born, naturalized US citizen,), I think I have fairly good idea of the republican party opinion of minorities and thier past disregard of minorities.. It is not like Nascar to me.
Take a closer look?, excuse me" I cannot get any closer to it. I am in it. I know the history already. I am dealing with the now

[SharkyT]

The top 3 job markets in America:

1) Houston
2) Austin
3) Dallas-Ft Worth

And we are one of the most conservative states. Go figure.

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/slideshow/51.html?page=1

By 2012, political scientists are predicting Texas will be a democratic state. You can always move to Mississippi, you can get a really good discount on a klan clothing apparel, even the camouflague type;)

[1bad65]

I'm neither Republican or Democrat and you need to take a closer look around you today and research your history a little.
BQ

Good luck with that.

I'm sure he would be shocked to find out that a higher percentage of Republican Senators voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1965 than did Democrats.

Basically, he is one of those people Joseph Goebbels spoke of when he said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”

[Baqualin]

Dude,
As a minority ( foriegn born, naturalized US citizen,), I think I have fairly good idea of the republican party opinion of minorities and thier past disregard of minorities.. It is not like Nascar to me.
Take a closer look?, excuse me" I cannot get any closer to it. I am in it. I know the history already. I am dealing with the now

Dude,
Well I'm a natural American citizen and grew up poor,,,worked and paid my own way through school and been here for a few years.
The now is political BS.....it's all about votes & power...that's the only reason any party (NOW) pushes any agenda.....if you believe either really care about you I have some swamp land to sell. You are who you choose to make yourself....not promises and handouts from political parties.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Good luck with that.

I'm sure he would be shocked to find out that a higher percentage of Republican Senators voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1965 than did Democrats.

Basically, he is one of those people Joseph Goebbels spoke of when he said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”

Hey Bad,
Have you read the book Black Rednecks and White Liberals by Thomas Sowell....if not I think you would really enjoy.
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

Darth Penguin strikes


Cheney is absolutely going nuts. He has launched a full attack on the Obama Admin. I think the reason he's doing all this is an elaborate attempt to stay out of jail. Cheney is setting the groundwork to cry "political prisoner" when they come after him.

Of course, in my opinion, of all the war criminals(and criminals in general) in the Bush admin, Cheney and Alberto Gonzales are the two that stand out. If I was AG I could make a case against these two....easy!

[GLW]

Bad, you keep using that 1965 example which is totally erroneous,

In 1965, AS I POINTED OUT TO YOU BEFORE - please read and recall your history...

The Democratic party was basically divided up into 3 factions. There were the moderates, the liberals, and then the DixieCrats. The breakdown was that the moderates fell MOSTLY for Civil Rights. The Liberal faction fell totally for Civil Rights. The DixieCrats were the old southern Democrats who were historically against Civil Rights and who had supported things like Jim Crow laws.

In regards to the Vietnam war back then, the liberals were against it. The moderates were roughly 60% to 70% for it and the DixieCrats were almost totally for the Vietnam war.

With the changes in the Democratic party first under Johnson...and then the growing anti-war sentiment, the Democratic party moved to the left and the DixieCrats abandonded the Democratic Party and went to the Republican party. This was when Texas began making the shift to Republican. It also occurred about the same time that people who were traditionally Republican were immigrating to the south for financial opportunities. Hence, the shift in the late 70's and 80's.

However, you can see similar shifts in the Republican party. It started as the anti-slavery party - originally for different ideals. It moved from that base to becoming primarily pro-business. Minorities left the party after the crash of 1929 and have not really returned to it.

You are too young to fully understand what Texas or Southern politics were like until the mid to late 1980's

Back when the Republican's were a minority in Texas, for example, the Democrats in power did NOT show the disdain and contempt for the Republicans that has been the typical approach from the Republicans towards the minority Democrats. In fact, the polarization of Texas politics only became a reality in the past 15 or so years.

[SharkyT]

Dude,
Well I'm a natural American citizen and grew up poor,,,worked and paid my own way through school and been here for a few years.
The now is political BS.....it's all about votes & power...that's the only reason any party (NOW) pushes any agenda.....if you believe either really care about you I have some swamp land to sell. You are who you choose to make yourself....not promises and handouts from political parties.
BQ

Where you did I say the Democratic party is the messiah?I was addressing the claim that Dem party is a racist. All politics is bull****, your best bet is choosing a party represent your values and seem to need, and that is the best you can hope for. I am very familar hypocrisy of politics

[Baqualin]

Where you did I say the Democratic party is the messiah?I was addressing the claim that Dem party is a racist. All politics is bull****, your best bet is choosing a party represent your values and seem to need, and that is the best you can hope for. I am very familar hypocrisy of politics

Enough said:)
BQ

[SharkyT]

Good luck with that.

I'm sure he would be shocked to find out that a higher percentage of Republican Senators voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1965 than did Democrats.

Basically, he is one of those people Joseph Goebbels spoke of when he said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”
Lee Harvey

I wouldnt be shocked if it really happened back in 1965. you sound like Al Bundy reliving his football days.I am talking about right now. What the Repub party means to most minorities. It is considered a racist political party, deals with it. To continue to stand on a soapbox , and proclaim " the republican ended slavery, etc, is good , but afterwhile people ask what else can you do for me. No matter how many Michael Steele, and happy negroes the Republican party parade out there , republican is not considered a alternative party to the democratics for minorities.
Basically, I am one of the guys who makes more 250,000 dollars/years( believe me, many people do, especially in big metro areas ), who wont get tax break by Obama ( in which I enjoyed for 8 years), yet your ass, will and still *****. Sometimes , I wish McCain would have won, and deal with this economic crisis by giving the wealthy tax cuts...so ****tards , get slammed into reality( Rich care about the rich, not the working class). But I dont wish that kinda reality because too many good hard working people and thier families would suffer , and ****tards would be ok' barely making it like in the Grapes of Wrath, still ignorant, and but happy to see the rich keep getting richer, while thier *******es never really prosper and continue dream of owning a chevrolet cobalt one day. It is very noble of you, 1bad65

[SharkyT]

Bad, you keep using that 1965 example which is totally erroneous,

In 1965, AS I POINTED OUT TO YOU BEFORE - please read and recall your history...

The Democratic party was basically divided up into 3 factions. There were the moderates, the liberals, and then the DixieCrats. The breakdown was that the moderates fell MOSTLY for Civil Rights. The Liberal faction fell totally for Civil Rights. The DixieCrats were the old southern Democrats who were historically against Civil Rights and who had supported things like Jim Crow laws.

In regards to the Vietnam war back then, the liberals were against it. The moderates were roughly 60% to 70% for it and the DixieCrats were almost totally for the Vietnam war.

With the changes in the Democratic party first under Johnson...and then the growing anti-war sentiment, the Democratic party moved to the left and the DixieCrats abandonded the Democratic Party and went to the Republican party. This was when Texas began making the shift to Republican. It also occurred about the same time that people who were traditionally Republican were immigrating to the south for financial opportunities. Hence, the shift in the late 70's and 80's.

However, you can see similar shifts in the Republican party. It started as the anti-slavery party - originally for different ideals. It moved from that base to becoming primarily pro-business. Minorities left the party after the crash of 1929 and have not really returned to it.

You are too young to fully understand what Texas or Southern politics were like until the mid to late 1980's

Back when the Republican's were a minority in Texas, for example, the Democrats in power did NOT show the disdain and contempt for the Republicans that has been the typical approach from the Republicans towards the minority Democrats. In fact, the polarization of Texas politics only became a reality in the past 15 or so years.

Thank you. Believe if Uncle Rush doesnt tell 1bad65 the above as he tucks him for the night, 1bad65 isnt going to believe it

[BoulderDawg]

Thank you. Believe if Uncle Rush doesnt tell 1bad65 the above as he tucks him for the night, 1bad65 isnt going to believe it

You know one of the these guys actually said the KKK was made up of a bunch of "leftist".:D Yep! I really remember that "KKK for Obama" group that marched around during the election!:eek:

[1bad65]

Hey Bad,
Have you read the book Black Rednecks and White Liberals by Thomas Sowell....if not I think you would really enjoy.
BQ

Thanks. I will be sure and read it soon.

[1bad65]

Bad, you keep using that 1965 example which is totally erroneous,

In 1965, AS I POINTED OUT TO YOU BEFORE - please read and recall your history...

The Democratic party was basically divided up into 3 factions.

What I posted is 100% true.

Now you may try and say the 'DixieCrats' didn't count, or some other nonsense, but they were Democrats. Period, end of story. But the FACT remains, a higher percentage of Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1965 than did Democrats.

Can you name ONE Republican that was an "Exalted Cyclops" in the Klan like Democrat Robert Byrd was?


Back when the Republican's were a minority in Texas, for example, the Democrats in power did NOT show the disdain and contempt for the Republicans that has been the typical approach from the Republicans towards the minority Democrats. In fact, the polarization of Texas politics only became a reality in the past 15 or so years.

I agree here. Politics in general has gotten more polarized since the 1990s.

[GLW]

I am NOT saying that the DixieCrats did not count. I DID however say that since 1965, most of the DixieCrats LEFT the DEMOCRATIC Party and went to the Republican Party. Their defection to the Republican Party coincides quite nicely with the Republican takeover of much of the south. Hmm...could there be a connection...most historians seem to be of that opinion.

Now, WHY did the DixieCrats leave the Democrats and go Republican - the largest single issue then and often hemmed and hawed about..but still the reason was the stance on things like Civil Rights, Immigration, Welfare....and in all of those issues, if you dig just a little under the surface, the root of prejudice and racism is there.

Back in the Robert Byrd days, the KKK did not exist outside of the south. A Republican in the south...about as electable as a dog at a cat convention....

And the players in that game you are touting have changed sides....The ones you are reviling would and are Republicans now.

As for your question :

David Ernest Duke (born July 1, 1950) is an American white nationalist, former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,[2][3][4][5][6][7] former Republican Louisiana State Representative, and a candidate in presidential primaries and presidential elections...REPUBLICAN and MUCH more recent than 1965. He was only repudiated by the Republican's AFTER he was elected and his KKK affiliation became national news.