OT: does obama bring change?

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by 1bad65
Don't take my word for it. Don't take SLF's word for it.

Let's see what Rush himself said:

"I want Obama to fail in being successful with his economic plan."
What are you trying to prove here? That Rush has been stating that he wants his economic plan to fail but not his whole presidency.

Don't take my word for it! Don't take 1bad65's word for it!

Let's hear what Rush himself says in this next clip at 2:10 and then again at 4:05

"I hope he fails."
"I can answer them in four words, I hope he fails."

Originally Posted by 1bad65
Obama: “If your family earns less than $250,000 a year, you will not see your taxes increase a single dime. I repeat: not one single dime.”

Did I miss the part where Obama said this promise only applied to income and/or payroll taxes?
When he said that he was referring to income taxes. How would that statement apply to taxes that everybody will have to pay across the board? I swear to God, it's like watching a commercial for a bad movies with you. They'll always take things that critics say out of context and splash them across the screen. It'll say, "Stupendous!" when the critic actually said, "What a stupendous flop!"

[Drake]

From CNN’s Jack Cafferty:

As the stock market continues to drop, President Obama is running out of people to blame, according to an editorial in the Wall Street Journal.

Before the president took office, in early January, the stock market was over 9,000 its highest level since last fall. But in the last two months, it has dropped 25% to its lowest level since 1997. It closed today with a gain of 150 points.

The Journal suggests that Mr. Obama’s policies are slowing, if not stopping, what would be a normal economic recovery. “From punishing business to squandering scarce national public resources, Team Obama is creating more uncertainty and less confidence,” said the editorial.

The editorial takes issue with the way much of the administration’s stimulus spending went to social programs rather than public works, how the Treasury has been managing the bank bailout plan, and how tax cuts were devoted to income maintenance rather than giving incentives to work or invest.

The Journal also points out how the market took a dive after the President announced his budget. The paper called it a “declaration of hostility toward capitalists across the economy.”

The editorial suggests Democrats benefit from blaming all bad economic news on President Bush,
and there’s a new poll out that shows Americans kind of agree with that. The NBC/Wall Street Journal poll shows 84% of those surveyed say this is an economy Mr. Obama inherited and two-thirds of those people think he has at least a year before he becomes responsible for it.

By the way — this poll also shows the president’s favorability rating at an all-time high and the Republicans at an all-time low.

[1bad65]

SLF, please post the entire paragraph, not just one sentence.

You know, like I did.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by 1bad65
Maybe if you drown a girl, you can get an honorary knighthood yourself.
Oh, this is my favorite part where I get to do a character assassination of Republicans.

How 'bout those real family values. Like when Newt Gingrich gave his wife divorce papers while she was on her deathbed and McCain also deserted his loyal navy wife who was in a wheelchair.

Speaking of McCain, after being captured he didn't just relinquish classified information to the enemy, he sang! He told them, straight up that he was Admiral John S. McCain's son. After that the North Vietnamese realized they had a valuable prisoner and he was treated like a prince. Way to break under pressure and betray your country John!

And Nixon! Well...do I really need to extrapolate on him?

Oh, and how 'bout when George Bush senior bailed out of his Gruman Avenger torpedo bomber to save himself while his two crewmen died a horrible death. A tail gunner with an unobstructed view said that he didn't even see smoke coming from Bush's plane and that it was still flying. He could've attempted a landing, but when the chips are down, save your own skin!

[1bad65]

When he said that he was referring to income taxes. How would that statement apply to taxes that everybody will have to pay across the board?

Can you show me where he used the word "income"? :confused:

Also, increasing an existing tax is a tax increase. Creating a new tax is a tax increase. Is this news to you?

[1bad65]

Slandering a man because of politics is low.


Like when Newt Gingrich gave his wife divorce papers while she was on her deathbed....

This is not true. They discussed divorce while she was at the hospital. She was never served any papers while in the hospital.


Speaking of McCain, after being captured he didn't just relinquish classified information to the enemy, he sang! He told them, straight up that he was Admiral John S. McCain's son. After that the North Vietnamese realized they had a valuable prisoner and he was treated like a prince. Way to break under pressure and betray your country John!

This is also not true.

What classified info did he relinquish?

Actually, once they found out who he was (on their own), he was offered a release. McCain refused until all those imprisoned before him were freed, which is the policy POWs are taught to adhere to.


Oh, and how 'bout when George Bush senior bailed out of his Gruman Avenger torpedo bomber to save himself while his two crewmen died a horrible death. Other pilots said that it looked like he could've attempted a landing, but when the chips are down, save your own skin!

This is also not true.

Do you have any links to prove these assertions?

[1bad65]

Here is the truth on George H W Bush's Avenger being shot down:

"During their attack, four TBM Avengers from VT-51 encountered intense antiaircraft fire. While starting the attack, Bush's aircraft was hit and his engine caught on fire. He completed his attack and released the bombs over his target scoring several damaging hits. With his engine on fire, Bush flew several miles from the island, where he and one other crew member on the TBM Avenger bailed out of the aircraft. However, the other man's chute did not open and he fell to his death. It was never determined which man bailed out with Bush. Both Delaney and White were killed in action. While Bush anxiously waited four hours in his inflated raft, several fighters circled protectively overhead until he was rescued by the lifeguard submarine, USS Finback. For this action, Bush received the Distinguished Flying Cross. During the month he remained on Finback, Bush participated in the rescue of other pilots."

Source:
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq10-1.htm

Yes, my link was the OFFICIAL story:

DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY -- NAVAL HISTORICAL CENTER
805 KIDDER BREESE SE -- WASHINGTON NAVY YARD
WASHINGTON DC 20374-5060

[BoulderDawg]

The worst character assassination I've seen from the Neo is what they did to Max Cleland down in Georgia. Then they did the same thing to John Kerry during the election. Add to that such thing as a pre-teen Chelsea Clinton looks like a dog, Hillary Clinton is a lesbian.........and many more.

Politics aside, sooner or later most Americans get their fill of smearing someone's reputation.

[1bad65]

Now let's set the record straight on your lies about Newt Gingrich:

"His first marriage, to his former high school geometry teacher, Jackie Battley, ended in divorce in 1981. Although Gingrich has said he doesn't remember it, Battley has said Gingrich discussed divorce terms with her while she was recuperating in the hospital from cancer surgery."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258001,00.html

Notice his wife said it was discussed during her 'recuperation', and she does not mention any papers being served in the hospital.

You said she was on her "deathbed", but can you show what year she died? Is she still alive?

[BoulderDawg]

Also, what's this stuff going on with Al Franken and Norm Coleman? Franken was elected 4 months ago. A court challenge can go on for years are they just going to say that Minnesota will not get a senator?

Now Coleman is asking for another election......:rolleyes:

I know Al wants to serve in the senate but to be honest if they are going to try up the seat forever in the courts then he should just let Coleman have it.

[BoulderDawg]

Now let's set the record straight on your lies about Newt Gingrich:

"His first marriage, to his former high school geometry teacher, Jackie Battley, ended in divorce in 1981. Although Gingrich has said he doesn't remember it, Battley has said Gingrich discussed divorce terms with her while she was recuperating in the hospital from cancer surgery."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258001,00.html

Notice his wife said it was discussed during her 'recuperation', and she does not mention any papers being served in the hospital.

You said she was on her "deathbed", but can you show what year she died? Is she still alive?

I could really care less about Gingrich. He is now a political non-entity.

The truth is he just up and quit and said I'm outta here. One wonders why. I'm quessing it was "quit now or something you don't won't to be made public will be released."

[1bad65]

As to McCain using his father's name for preferntial treatment; within 2 days of his capture, both The New York Times and The Washington Post (among many others) printed the story that Admiral McCain's son had been captured in a bombing raid. That is how the North Vietnamese knew who he was.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/165690022.html?dids=165690022:165690022&FMT=ABS&FMTS=

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/flash/politics/20080203_MCCAIN_TIMELINE/content/pdf/19671028.pdf

[1bad65]

I could really care less about Gingrich. He is now a political non-entity.

That does not give people a free pass to make up lies about the man.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by 1bad65
Slandering a man because of politics is low.
I know, you're right, I never see Republicans doing that.

Originally Posted by 1bad65
This is not true. They discussed divorce while she was at the hospital. She was never served any papers while in the hospital.
Show me definitive proof that pretty much every article I've read on this is wrong. That she was handed divorce papers while she was on her deathbed. And what would be the difference anyway? The man's a scumbag.

Originally Posted by 1bad65
This is also not true.

What classified info did he relinquish?

Actually, once they found out who he was (on their own), he was offered a release. McCain refused until all those imprisoned before him were freed, which is the policy POWs are taught to adhere to.
Just by telling them that he was an admirals son is tantamount to treason. Ideally POW's aren't supposed to tell the enemy anything. He gave them a bargaining chip and, from what I heard, there is testimony that John McCain told the N. Vietnamese that he was Admiral McCain's son.
Since it seems like your full-time job to post Democrat and liberal slandering rhetoric on this thread, I didn't get a chance to revise my earlier comment with further details...

Oh, and how 'bout when George Bush senior bailed out of his Gruman Avenger torpedo bomber to save himself while his two crewmen died a horrible death. A tail gunner with an unobstructed view said that he didn't even see smoke coming from Bush's plane and that it was still flying. He could've attempted a landing, but when the chips are down, save your own skin!

It was rear turret gunner, Chester Mierzejewksi who saw the whole thing. This is from the The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush (because, of course, George would never authorize anyone coming out with the truth about him):

The only person who has ever claimed to have seen Bush's plane get hit, and to have seen it hit the water, is Chester Mierzejewksi, who was the rear turret gunner in the aircraft flown by Squadron Commander Douglas Melvin. During 1987-88, Mierzejewksi became increasingly indignant as he watched Bush repeat his canonical account of how he was shot down. Shortly before the Republican National Convention in 1988, Mierzekewski, by then a 68 year old retired aircraft foreman living in Cheshire, Connecticut, decided to tell his story to Allan Wolper and Al Ellenberg of the New York Post, which printed it as a copyrighted article. [8]

"That guy is not telling the truth," Mierzejewski said of Bush...

Mierzejewki, who is also a recipient of the Distinguished Flying Cross, told the New York Post that he saw "a puff of smoke" come out of Bush's plane and quickly dissipate. He asserted that after that there was no more smoke visible, that Bush's "plane was never on fire" and that "no smoke came out of his ****pit when he opened his canopy to bail out." Mierzejewski stated that only one man ever got out of the Barbara II, and that was Bush himself. "I was hoping I would see some other parachutes. I never did. I saw the plane go down. I knew the guys were still in it. It was a helpless feeling."

Mierzejewski has long been troubled by the notion that Bush's decision to parachute from his damaged aircraft might have cost the lives of Radioman second class John Delaney, a close friend of Mierzejewksy, as well as gunner Lt. Junior Grade William White. 'I think [Bush] could have saved those lives, if they were alive. I don't know that they were, but at least they had a chance if he had attempted a water landing,'" Mierzejewski told the New York Post.

http://killtown.911review.org/bushbio/chapter6.html

[BoulderDawg]

That does not give people a free pass to make up lies about the man.


You mean like what was done with Max Cleland and John Kerry? Why don't we throw in Hillary Clinton while we're at it.

[1bad65]

You mean like what was done with Max Cleland and John Kerry? Why don't we throw in Hillary Clinton while we're at it.

What did they say about Max Cleland and John Kerry that was unture?

[1bad65]

SLF, you can't even prove Newt's wife died!

And you're saying THE NAVY got it wrong about Bush? :eek:

EVERY ONE of those imprisoned with McCain said he acted with honor and in no way corroborated with the enemy.

Yet you know the real truth?!?! :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Show me definitive proof that pretty much every article I've read on this is wrong. The she was handed divorce papers while she was on her deathbed. And what would be the difference anyway? The man's a scumbag.

Show me ONE article that says she was 'served papers while on her deathbed'.

The difference between being on a 'deathbed' and being in recovery is a pretty big difference. ;)

[Drake]

Show me ONE article that says she was 'served papers while on her deathbed'.

The difference between being on a 'deathbed' and being in recovery is a pretty big difference. ;)

Geez! That's almost like cheating on your wife while she's suffering from cancer! Terrible! :rolleyes:

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by 1bad65
SLF, you can't even prove Newt's wife died!

And you're saying THE NAVY got it wrong about Bush?

EVERY ONE of those imprisoned with McCain said he acted with honor and in no way corroborated with the enemy.

Yet you know the real truth?!?!
Point by point:

She had cancer and it wasn't clear whether or not she would make it. But does it matter!? I can't believe you are defending that putz!
He's a serial wife dumper. He cheated on both his first and second wives. There's no disputing this. The guy's a slimball:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=2937633

And well...the truth is McCain did "sing like a canary" because there are official records that show this:

http://www.powmccain.org/?page_id=45

Here's an excerpt from the next link (the McCain people worked hard at covering this stuff up)

This information comes from U.S. intercepts of North Vietnamese broadcasts to American servicemen in South Vietnam around 31 October 1967, as well as from dispatches by North Vietnamese and Cuban correspondents — using material from a Nhan Dan (the central organ, the voice of the Communist Party of Vietnam, then and now) correspondent who interviewed John McCain. This material was published on 9 November 1967. The latter were backed up by the intercepts of these messages by the Message Center of the U.S. Department of Defense National Military Command Center, dated 11 November 1967

http://centab.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/john-mccain-sang-like-a-canary-to-the-north-vietnamese/

[Siu Lum Fighter]

And the Navy did get it wrong because the only person to come forward with exact details of the event was Bush himself after he was rescued. It wasn't until years later in 1988 or so when Chester Mierzejewksi gave his version of what happened. And it's so obvious Chester's not lying! Which was why it was such a scandal at the time. Bush, on the other hand, has made a career out of lying just like son has.

[1bad65]

She had cancer and it wasn't clear whether or not she would make it. But does it matter!?

Yes it does matter. You said "deathbed". She didn't even die!


And well...the truth is McCain did "sing like a canary" because there are official records that show this:

Wordpress.com and powmccain.org are not OFFICIAL sources at all. I want official sources. You know, like the ones from THE US NAVY I provided to back up my case for GHW Bush.

[1bad65]

And the Navy did get it wrong because the only person to come forward with exact details of the event was Bush himself after he was rescued.

Wrong again. The US Navy document I quoted said this: "While Bush anxiously waited four hours in his inflated raft, several fighters circled protectively overhead until he was rescued by the lifeguard submarine, USS Finback."

Those pilots and crewmen were witnesses. Even the other two men in the plane with Chester Mierzejewksi were witnesses!!! FYI, the military does not award medals like the Distinguished Flying Cross without witnesses testifying to the person's actions. Ask Drake or anyone else with military service.

[1bad65]

I did some searching about that book SLF is quoting, and lets just say it's a mess.

Webster Tarpley, one of the authors maintains that the events of 9/11 were engineered by a rogue network of the military industrial complex and intelligence agencies. His writings and speeches describe a model of false flag terror operations by a rogue network in the military/intelligence sector working with moles in the private sector and in corporate media, and locates such contemporary false flag operations in a historical context stretching back in the English speaking world to at least the "gunpowder plot" in England in 1605. :eek:

The book, "George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography" was published by Executive Intelligence Review, run by Lyndon LaRouche. :rolleyes: For those of you who don't know who LaRouch is, he served 15 years in prison for conspiracy to commit mail fraud and tax code violations.

[1bad65]

But Tarpley isn't too fond of others either:

In August, 2007, Webster Tarpley issued the Kennebunkport Warning, which claimed an impending "false flag attack" in America in the "coming months." (He was quite wrong:D) Controversy ensued after Jamilla El-Shafei, Cindy Sheehan, Dahlia Wasfi, and Ann Wright issued a joint-statement claiming that they did not sign this Kennebunkport Warning. In response to this denial, Tarpley sent out a widely distributed and highly publicized email in which he characterized Cindy Sheehan, Anne Wright and other anti-war activists as "lying in appalling fashion" and "wretched individuals."

In January 2008, Tarpley became one of the first critics to assert that Barack Obama is actually managed by right-wing powerbrokers. Tarpley claimed that a shift in power had taken place in the ruling class, with the Zbigniew Brzezinski faction and its presidential candidate Obama ascendant over the lame-duck neocons. The targets of US imperialism would now be Russia, China and its ally Pakistan, instead of Iraq, Iran and Syria. He developed these themes in his two books on Obama.


So; do we believe the US Navy, or a tinfoil-hat wearing loon? :rolleyes:

[Drake]

For one, you can't recommend yourself for an award. Well, you CAN, I guess, but it won't make it past the orderly room.

Secondly, awards such as BSM and higher usually require third party narratives along with eyewitness testimonies. This stuff is HIGHLY scrutinized.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

1bad65,

I only posted the link to Webster Tarpley's book because it was the most readily available source. Remember, I'm not a fanatic right-winger like you who has all the time in the world to sit there and blanket the thread with 10 comments for every one of mine. The Mierzejewski story did not originate with Tarpley's book. Here are some other links:

http://www.nationalreview.com/kerry/kerry200408231323.asp

http://www.usvetdsp.com/story46.htm

In the first article it has the official report at the time:

According to the intelligence report approved sometime later by the squadron leader (it was oddly undated), Bush's plane was enveloped in "smoke and flames," and "Bush and one other person were seen to bail out... Bush's chute opened and he landed safely in water... The chute of the other person ... who bailed out did not open." The plane crashed into the sea and sank. Both John Delaney and Ted White were reported missing in action, presumed dead. The report added a cautionary note: "Bush has not yet been returned to squadron by rescue sub, so this information is incomplete."

This "official" story was approved by the squadron leader. The funny thing is a couple of the guys in the squadron, including the executive officer, Lt. Legare Hole, said that Mierzejewski would have had the best view of what happened. Mierzejewski said he saw a plume of smoke and then nothing. The plane was still flying, everything was fine. All of a sudden our former commander in chief cracked under pressure and bailed out like a weasel in order to save his own neck. His two crew members met a horrible fate. Weren't we talking about karma earlier? I wonder what his will be, that puke. I love how he got the Distinguished Flying Cross basically for being shot down and having to be rescued:rolleyes:
What a d@uchebag.

Oh, and here's an excerpt from an article about McCain's adventures in N. Vietnam.

The following is McCain's own admission of collaboration in an article he wrote, printed May 14, 1973 in U.S. News and World Report:

"I think it was on the fourth day [after being shot down] that two guards came in, instead of one. One of them pulled back the blanket to show the other guard my injury. I looked at my knee. It was about the size, shape and color of a football. I remembered that when I was a flying instructor a fellow had ejected from his plane and broken his thigh. He had gone into shock, the blood had pooled in his leg, and he died, which came as quite a surprise to us a man dying of a broken leg.

Then I realized that a very similar thing was happening to me.

"When I saw it, I said to the guard, `O.K., get the officer.'

"An officer came in after a few minutes. It was the man that we came to know very well as `The Bug.' He was a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends that we had to deal with. I said, `O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.'"

McCain claims it was only a coincidence that, about the same time he was begging to be taken to a hospital, the Vietnamese learned his father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., commander of all U.S. forces in Europe and soon to be commander of all U.S. forces in the Pacific, including Vietnam.

McCain has admitted that he survived only because the Vietnamese learned who his father was and rushed him to a hospital where his wounds were eagerly treated. He has also conceded that the Vietnamese repeatedly threatened to withhold much needed operations unless he would give them information.

The former POW admitted in the U.S. News and World Report article that the Vietnamese usually left other U.S. prisoners with similar wounds to die, not wishing to waste medication on them. McCain pointed out "there were hardly any amputees among the prisoners who came back because the North Vietnamese just would not give medical treatment to someone who was badly injured. They weren't going to waste their time."

The communists figured that because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank, McCain was of royalty and the governing circle. They bragged that they had captured "the crown prince" and treated him as a "special prisoner."

http://www.usvetdsp.com/mccainpic.htm

HAHA!! "The Crown Prince"!! What a little p!ssant fool. He's a worm just like Bush. "I want to save my own pathetic little puke existence even if it means selling out all of my values and my country." Any guy who would decide to have Sarah Palin as his running mate is a sleazy little player who's always going to be a sell-out when it means getting a leg up in the world. He always tried to play up his dad's name but he could never quit be a winner like him. He sucked as a pilot too. Crashing fighters left and right.

You know, even Ron and Nancy didn't like him anymore after he callously divorced his first wife for a trophy wife. These are all real swell guys. The kind of guys who don't give a rat cr@p about this country, I can tell you that much.

[1bad65]

The Mierzejewski story did not originate with Tarpley's book. Here are some other links:

Actually it did. The national review link said Sidney Blumenthal (later known for his lies about Ken Starr) first mentioned it in October 1992. The usvetdsp.com link is from 1997. The book was first published in Jan 1992.

As for your lies about McCain, your timeline does not add up. You claimed McCain 'sang' in exchange for medical treatment. McCain was shot down and captured on Oct 26, 1967. By Oct 28th, Amercain papers had printed that Admiral McCains son had been shot down and captured in Vietnam. McCain "confessed", (after severe torture which left him classified as 100% disabled by the military) in August 1968, saying in part "I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died and the Vietnamese people saved my life, thanks to the doctors." So he had already received treatment BEFORE his "confession".

[1bad65]

SLF,

I have one simple question for you: Why are you dragging two men's names through the mud who served honorably in the military, one of which was a POW, and both of whom were decorated for going above and beyond the call of duty?

[Exadon]

A change we can believe...and see!
Obama's hair color that is.

I would hate to be in his shoes right now...I am sure my hair would turn gray as well
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29524174

[sanjuro_ronin]

A change we can believe...and see!
Obama's hair color that is.

I would hate to be in his shoes right now...I am sure my hair would turn gray as well
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29524174

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it...

[BoulderDawg]

SLF,

I have one simple question for you: Why are you dragging two men's names through the mud who served honorably in the military, one of which was a POW, and both of whom were decorated for going above and beyond the call of duty?

You, of all people, should know that. What's the first thing you do when someone criticizes one of these conservative heroes that you worship? Why you don't comment on what's been said. You go after someone on the other side that you feel had similar problems. Siu is just doing the same back to you. How does it feel?:D

Maybe now, although I sincerely doubt it, you understand what I mean by "Two wrongs don't make a right".

[1bad65]

You, of all people, should know that.

What he did is WAY beyond what any of us did. He used a book published by a convicted felon as a source!

I'm still waiting for you to post what untrue attacks were made on John Kerry and Max Cleland.

[BoulderDawg]

I'm still waiting for you to post what untrue attacks were made on John Kerry and Max Cleland.

BY the nature of the attacks they were suggesting that both men were unamerican and even worse.

[BoulderDawg]

What he did is WAY beyond what any of us did. He used a book published by a convicted felon as a source!

I don't think he was convicted on lying was he?

Also, has any libel suit been filed by either man? One would think if he was publishing blantant lies then he would get sued...hasn't happened.

Who am I to know what went on over there? I did not witness it.

[1bad65]

I don't think he was convicted on lying was he?

Mail fraud was one of his convictions.


Also, has any libel suit been filed by either man? One would think if he was publishing blantant lies then he would get sued...hasn't happened.

Sometimes it's best to not even answer nutbars like those authors. It just gives them attention. Hell, one of those idiots actually got arrested for climbing on a statue in Washington DC! :eek:


Who am I to know what went on over there? I did not witness it.

Bush's squadron commander did. And he filed an official report with the US Navy.

[1bad65]

BY the nature of the attacks they were suggesting that both men were unamerican and even worse.

I asked for the lies. You said "lies".

Suggestions don't count.

[BoulderDawg]

Bush's squadron commander did. And he filled out an official report with the US Navy.

Right! And I'm suspose to believe that! Police back each other up every day...why not soldiers?

Didn't Pat Tillman's fellow soldiers make similar claims about him?

Since you weren't there and no libel suits have been filed....I suggest that you don't know what went on either.

[1bad65]

Right! And I'm suspose to believe that! Police back each other up every day...why not soldiers?

Are you nuts!?!?

If a squadron commander sees one of his pilots let two men die to save his own skin, he would do everything in his power to make sure the man never flew again and was reprimanded. He would not want a man like that to ever have other men's lives in his hands. Yet the squadron commander recommended him for a medal.

Are you brain damaged by chance? And I'm being 100% serious.

Ask Drake or Sanjuro if I'm hitting the nail on the head about this topic.

[1bad65]

So, by your 'logic', cops who saw a fellow officer let two other fellow officers die would lie for him so he got a medal???? :confused:

[1bad65]

Keep in mind; after Bush was shot down he still continued to fly in the US Navy.

[BoulderDawg]

I asked for the lies. You said "lies".

Suggestions don't count.

To try to structure something to make people believe a lie is a lie in and of itself.

I would even go as far to say that taking the truth and twisting it to make people believe a lie is even more immoral than outright lying.

[1bad65]

To try to structure something to make people believe a lie is a lie in and of itself.

What was the lie?

FYI, Cleland was attacked for voting against homeland security measures. The ads were 100% accurate in saying he voted against them.

[Drake]

Right! And I'm suspose to believe that! Police back each other up every day...why not soldiers?

Didn't Pat Tillman's fellow soldiers make similar claims about him?

Since you weren't there and no libel suits have been filed....I suggest that you don't know what went on either.


You should probably STFU while you're ahead. The Pat Tillman fiasco was indicative of warfare out there. Very confusing and very uncertain. Did it occur to you that for a while nobody knew what was going on or what even happened out there? If they thought they were taking enemy fire, then it is probably going to be initially reorted that he died from it.

You know nothing about the military investigative process. This process takes weeks, if not longer, because the investigation must meet certain criteria, such as being VERY thorough...

[1bad65]

You should probably STFU while you're ahead. The Pat Tillman fiasco was indicative of warfare out there. Very confusing and very uncertain. Did it occur to you that for a while nobody knew what was going on or what even happened out there? If they thought they were taking enemy fire, then it is probably going to be initially reorted that he died from it.

You know nothing about the military investigative process. This process takes weeks, if not longer, because the investigation must meet certain criteria, such as being VERY thorough...

The expert speaks.

Of course you two will likely take the words of convicted criminals and ex-cons over his though. :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

You should probably STFU while you're ahead.

And I guess you're going to make me, right?:D

If the investigation was still going on then why did the military give the family all that song and dance about being killed by the enemy? Why didn't they just say, "We don't know what happened. The investigation is still ongoing." ?

That was blantant lies and cover up to save their own ass.

By the way, "It takes a long time" seems to be the patent answer to everything the military does these days. How convienent!

[BoulderDawg]

"for breaking his oath to protect and defend the Constitution."

Those were the words used against Max Cleland.

It doesn't suprise me that you would defend a suggestion of treason against a man who lost three limbs in battle and has never done anything that would warrent such a statement.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

True dat Dawg,

I'm sure they knew right away he was killed by fratricide and they used him for their own purposes to promote the war. The jar-heads in his unit (who I'm sure were right-wing a-holes) killed him because he didn't like Bush and he was expressing doubts about the war.

The San Francisco Chronicle reports:

"A side of Pat Tillman not widely known – a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought, and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books … to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author."

He was even supposed to meet with Chomsky. You know those meat heads would have been itching to kill him after they'd found that out.

[1bad65]

"for breaking his oath to protect and defend the Constitution."

Those were the words used against Max Cleland.

It doesn't suprise me that you would defend a suggestion of treason against a man who lost three limbs in battle and has never done anything that would warrent such a statement.

Even you admit the word "treason" was not in the add.

They equated his votes as not protecting and defending the Constitution. They never questioned his military service, as you and SLF have done.

Also, if the ads were so horrible, how do explain the fact that Cleland lost that election to Saxby Chambliss? And Chambliss has been re-elected since.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by 1bad65
Actually it did. The national review link said Sidney Blumenthal (later known for his lies about Ken Starr) first mentioned it in October 1992. The usvetdsp.com link is from 1997. The book was first published in Jan 1992.

No, actually it didn't. Mierzejewski's story was reported earlier in The New York Post and The New York Times back in 1988 duh.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1D91F3EF930A2575BC0A96E9482 60&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/P/Presidents%20and%20Presidency%20(US)

Originally Posted by 1bad65
As for your lies about McCain, your timeline does not add up. You claimed McCain 'sang' in exchange for medical treatment. McCain was shot down and captured on Oct 26, 1967. By Oct 28th, Amercain papers had printed that Admiral McCains son had been shot down and captured in Vietnam. McCain "confessed", (after severe torture which left him classified as 100% disabled by the military) in August 1968, saying in part "I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died and the Vietnamese people saved my life, thanks to the doctors." So he had already received treatment BEFORE his "confession".
Once again, McCain claimed that they found out later but you know he told them. If he's saying, "Please take me to the hospital before I die, I'll tell you anything you want!", then you know that little putz told them in order to ensure his survival. He later admitted that it was only because they knew he was Admiral McCain's son that he probably survived. So no, there's no "timeline not adding up" here.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by 1bad65
SLF,

I have one simple question for you: Why are you dragging two men's names through the mud who served honorably in the military, one of which was a POW, and both of whom were decorated for going above and beyond the call of duty?
Because they're punks! They just happen to be some of the few Republican men in power who actually did serve in the military. Most of the most hawkish men on that side of the isle never served or were draft dodgers like Newt, Rush, and Cheney. These aren't lies just because they didn't come from Fox News or some other joke of a radio program.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

HAHA!! Was that a Freudian slip!? I just realized I suggested in the above post that Rush was in Congress. He might as well be. It's pathetic that right-leaning politicians and people in general would ever take that fat grease ball seriously!

[1bad65]

Because they're punks! They just happen to be some of the few Republican men in power who actually did serve in the military. Most of the most hawkish men on that side of the isle never served or were draft dodgers like Newt, Rush, and Cheney. These aren't lies just because they didn't come from Fox News or some other joke of a radio program.

Are you crazy? Let's look at the current leaders of each party:

Barack Obama never served.
Joe Biden never served. He actually got 5 defermants between 1963 and 1968.
Harry Reid never served.
Nancy Pelosi never served.
Steny Hoyer never served.

John McCain served in the US Navy. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, a Legion of Merit, a Prisoner of War Medal, and a Purple Heart Medal.
Sarah Palin did not serve.
Mitch McConnell was honorably discharged from the US Army.
John Boehner enlisted, but was discharged during training due to a bad back.

I used McCain and Palin as they were the Republicans last nominees for President and Vice President. Steny Hoyer is Majority Leader in the House, a leadership position.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I gotta be honest, I think that anyone running for office should have served in the military or at least tried to.
Civic duty and all that.
It would give them a idea of what the military is about and the different types that go there.
Won't make a difference in their politics, but it wouldn't hurt.

[BoulderDawg]

What I think is telling is that during "wartime" as the GOP keeps harping that we are in the GOP talks about our "Great men and women" giving their all to their country.

However, the truth be known, there are plenty of GOP members in congress who have children old enough to volunteer and serve their countries in Iraq.

Just exactly how many GOP reps have kids in Iraq? I don't know of any. In fact, one of my favorite scenes from a Michael Moore movie was when he asked a GOP congressman if his son was serving in Iraq. The congressman looked at Moore as if he'd lost his mind!:D

[1bad65]

Just exactly how many GOP reps have kids in Iraq? I don't know of any.

John McCain's son James served in Iraq with the US Marines.


In fact, one of my favorite scenes from a Michael Moore movie was when he asked a GOP congressman if his son was serving in Iraq. The congressman looked at Moore as if he'd lost his mind!:D

Did he ask Hillary too?

After all, she voted for the war too. So did Max Cleland.

[1bad65]

Here are a few more:

Joe Wilson (R-SC) His son Alan served in Iraq with the US Army.

Kit Bond (R-Mo) His son Samuel served in Iraq with the US Marines.

Todd Akin (R-Mo) His son Perry served in Iraq with the US Marines.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-03-13-congress-kids-war_x.htm?csp=34

I found that link after about 2 minutes of looking. Do you even bother to check facts before you post? This keeps happening over and over, ya know. :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

John McCain's son James served in Iraq with the US Marines.
Did he ask Hillary too?

After all, she voted for the war too. So did Max Cleland.

You can throw everyone in there for all I care. They're all repulicrats as far as I'm concerned. The only congressman's son that I knew of was that guy from Virginia (Forgot his name).

So, out of 500+ congress people we've came up with two that has sons/daughters or grandsons/daughters that have served in Iraq.

The only difference is the GOP are the guys who seem to worship war but not enough to send their own children into the fray. Some democrats probably do to but so what? Once again your "Two wrongs make a right" argument.

******

After reading the above:

So? five out of over 500? Is that suspose to impress me or put me in my place?

[Drake]

True dat Dawg,

I'm sure they knew right away he was killed by fratricide and they used him for their own purposes to promote the war. The jar-heads in his unit (who I'm sure were right-wing a-holes) killed him because he didn't like Bush and he was expressing doubts about the war.

The San Francisco Chronicle reports:

"A side of Pat Tillman not widely known – a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought, and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books … to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author."

He was even supposed to meet with Chomsky. You know those meat heads would have been itching to kill him after they'd found that out.

That's the most ignorant thing ever posted on this forum. Period.

We have anti-war folks, liberals, conservatives, and NOBODY would ever shoot another over political ideology. We have liberals commanding units out there. We have libertarians, we have green party, we even have the die-hard Rush fans. We all know not to ever corss the line when it comes to someone else's political or religious beliefs, because that's their own. We're just glad they chose to serve. You wouldn't know this, of course, because you only know what the papers tell you.

You and BD have effectively summed up your complete lack of credibility when it comes to military affairs. Your opinions in this matter are not valid, and quoting a liberal newspaper's speculation on a matter they did not understand means nothing.

And actually, BD, yes, I can make you shut up. It's called putting you back on ignore. No point in making silly physical threats here anyway, which some don't seem to get.

[Drake]

Here are a few more:

Joe Wilson (R-SC) His son Alan served in Iraq with the US Army.

Kit Bond (R-Mo) His son Samuel served in Iraq with the US Marines.

Todd Akin (R-Mo) His son Perry served in Iraq with the US Marines.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-03-13-congress-kids-war_x.htm?csp=34

I found that link after about 2 minutes of looking. Do you even bother to check facts before you post? This keeps happening over and over, ya know. :rolleyes:

It was the typical uninformed knee-jerk reaction these guys are known for. They don't understand anything yet they profess themselves as experts. It's easy to act like you know everything when you can just google the information. However, when you start talking about the SPC Tillman situation (As in Specialist, an ARMY rank, IDIOTS), you can't google the 16-10 investigation, you can't google the sworn statements, and you certainly can't google the commander's recommendation. To imply that a soldier was killed intentionally due to his political affiliation is ignorant and indicative of a complete failure to understand military culture.

[BoulderDawg]

To imply that a soldier was killed intentionally due to his political affiliation is ignorant and indicative of a complete failure to understand military culture.

I don't know anything about that. I leave that out of my argument.

Here's an article from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/04/24/tillman.hearing/index.html

Notice the section:

"The Army later acknowledged not only that Tillman was killed by his fellow soldiers, but that officers in Tillman's chain of command knew the counterattack story was bogus.

Still, Senior Chief Petty Officer Stephen White told the official heroism-under-fire story at a May 3, 2004, memorial service for Tillman."

So that kinda shows that your agrument "It took time to get to the truth" was a big pile of S. They knew what happened when it happened.

Notice in this article the army also lied about Jessica Lynch and her ordeal.

So don't give me anymore BS about the honor of the military.

[Drake]

Ignore is a beautiful thing :D

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Drake
That's the most ignorant thing ever posted on this forum. Period.

We have anti-war folks, liberals, conservatives, and NOBODY would ever shoot another over political ideology. We have liberals commanding units out there. We have libertarians, we have green party, we even have the die-hard Rush fans. We all know not to ever corss the line when it comes to someone else's political or religious beliefs, because that's their own. We're just glad they chose to serve. You wouldn't know this, of course, because you only know what the papers tell you.

You and BD have effectively summed up your complete lack of credibility when it comes to military affairs. Your opinions in this matter are not valid, and quoting a liberal newspaper's speculation on a matter they did not understand means nothing.

And actually, BD, yes, I can make you shut up. It's called putting you back on ignore. No point in making silly physical threats here anyway, which some don't seem to get.
WOW! There must be some super ignorant stuff in this thread then:rolleyes:
Quoting an article from the SF Chronicle is the most ignorant thing someone could do on this forum, period??

The LA Times reported in 2005:

The soldier next to him testified: “I could hear the pain in his voice as he called out, ‘Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat f—ing Tillman, ******.' He said this over and over until he stopped,” having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him.

Ya, ignorance is bliss isn't it Drake? Soldiers fragging and killing men in their own units is nothing new. Men were fragged in 'Nam all the time for less. Yet, I'm ignorant for believing the obvious truth that has been determined after what has been a VERY comprehensive investigation. Tillman hated Bush and, after serving in Afghanistan, thought the war was bullsh!t. It's so obvious one of the men in his squad killed him with an M-16 at close range. Three bullets went into his forehead within a close proximity. The current M-16 model fires 3 bullet bursts!! Just because you were in the military doesn't mean you can lord that over people and say, "you don't know jack because you were never in the military." Both of my grandfathers were in the Navy. One of my great grandfathers was in WWI. I've had all sorts of relatives who've fought in almost every war this century. My great uncle was a distinguished Air Force fighter pilot who flew with Chuck Yeager back in WWII! You could almost consider me a WWII historian even though I don't have a degree! And I'm completely ignorant about all things military!?

[1bad65]

You two are space cadets.

[1bad65]

Men were fragged in 'Nam all the time for less.

Do you have even ONE example? :rolleyes:

[Drake]

WOW! There must be some super ignorant stuff in this thread then:rolleyes:
Quoting an article from the SF Chronicle is the most ignorant thing someone could do on this forum, period??

The LA Times reported in 2005:

The soldier next to him testified: “I could hear the pain in his voice as he called out, ‘Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat f—ing Tillman, ******.' He said this over and over until he stopped,” having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him.

Ya, ignorance is bliss isn't it Drake? Soldiers fragging and killing men in their own units is nothing new. Men were fragged in 'Nam all the time for less. Yet, I'm ignorant for believing the obvious truth that has been determined after what has been a VERY comprehensive investigation. Tillman hated Bush and, after serving in Afghanistan, thought the war was bullsh!t. It's so obvious one of the men in his squad killed him with an M-16 at close range. Three bullets went into his forhead within a close proximity. The current M-16 model fires 3 bullet bursts!! Just because you were in the military doesn't mean you can ward that over people and say, "you don't know jack because you were never in the military." Both of my grandfathers were in the Navy. One of my great grandfathers was in WWI. I've had all sorts of relatives who've fought in almost every war this century. My great uncle was a distinguished Air Force fighter pilot who flew with Chuck Yeager back in WWII! You could almost consider me a WWII historian even though I don't have a degree! And I'm completely ignorant about all things military!?

Actually, he was killed by a crew served, idiot. And you wouldn't know this, but for one, we never use three round burst because a - it's not even remotely accurate and b - it wastes ammo. Secondly, they had M-4s. Third, and this is a bonus, since you couldn't possibly know this... when a few M4s and a crew served are going off, you can scream at the top of your lungs and nobody will hear you. I experienced this myself.

And NO, having family who served in WWII does not make you knowledgeable. ESPECIALLY if the guy was Air Force, and ESPECIALLY if your knowledge stops at Vietnam. You are NOT knowledgeable AT ALL, as evidenced in the way you explained the function of an M-16, and not even knowing what we are using now. FAIL.

[1bad65]

Ignore is a beautiful thing :D

Like I've said before. I know you can't convince people like them. I just want people who read this this and are undecided to see who makes a better case, has facts on their side, has reputable sources, etc.

I just think it's beyond disgusting how they can say those vile and untrue things about decorated veterans who served our country as Bush and McCain did.

[Drake]

It's wrong to go after ANY veteran's military record, especially combat. This goes for dems AND republicans. Going after Kerry's record was wrong on multiple levels. And don't even get me started on McCain. The man was a POW, FFS...

[Drake]

You two are space cadets.

Can't blame them, I guess, if they only have the internet to guide them. I even found allegations that **** Cheney ORDERED a hit on Pat Tillman. Some sick people out there...

[1bad65]

Can't blame them, I guess, if they only have the internet to guide them. I even found allegations that **** Cheney ORDERED a hit on Pat Tillman. Some sick people out there...

There are people who say certain world leaders are space aliens. :rolleyes:

You just have to use common sense and write them for the nutbars they are. Sadly, some people use nutbars like that to back up their arguments.

[BoulderDawg]

"During the first six months of 1967, while McCain was part of an attack squadron of A-4 Skyhawks on the carrier Oriskany in the South China Sea, North Vietnamese officials said some 167 schools were bombed, along with 230 churches, three seminaries, and 23 pagodas. In late September—just a month before McCain's crash on his 23rd bombing run—U.S. planes managed to drop four massive container bombs (2,400 pellet bombs apiece) on a grade school in Thanh Hoa province, south of Hanoi. The school had just reopened after the summer recess and, according to Vietnamese reports, the attack killed 33 pupils, ages 8 to 12. Thirty more were wounded, including two teachers. That was a single incident. The American estimate is that the 1965-68 bombing campaign killed between 52,000 and 182,000 civilians; the Vietnamese claim the figure was several times higher."

http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-07-29/columns/is-mccain-a-war-criminal-who-has-served-his-time/

Sounds to me like the terrorist John McCain was being sent out to bomb children and schools.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Good post Dawg,

The thing a lot of right wing, pseudo-fascists have trouble with is that there was a reason for the anti-war movement in the sixties. Vietnam was a dishonorable and disgraceful war. They don't even know how many Vietnamese we killed. We bombed villages, we napalmed the countryside where innocent people were going about their business. Nixon told everyone he was going to scale back the carnage, but instead he stepped it up behind everyone's back. Our B-52's carpet bombed the north killing countless thousands of innocent people. He sent troops into Cambodia and Laos. It's been estimated that up to 3 million people were killed throughout the whole war!!

[BoulderDawg]

Disgraceful...both Nixon and Johnson.

The Iraqi war is the same. Bush is this eras Nixon and so far Obama hasn't shown me he's going to do anything either.

I still say the best thing we as Americans can do is just refuse to fight. If every soldier in Iraq just dropped his gun and said "F it. I'm not killing anymore" then what would the politicians do?

I say for those fools that want to fight to knock yourself out. However don't do it on the US dime. Join some private special forces or something. However it you get in trouble don't come crying to the US embassy for help.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Drake
Actually, he was killed by a crew served, idiot. And you wouldn't know this, but for one, we never use three round burst because a - it's not even remotely accurate and b - it wastes ammo. Secondly, they had M-4s. Third, and this is a bonus, since you couldn't possibly know this... when a few M4s and a crew served are going off, you can scream at the top of your lungs and nobody will hear you. I experienced this myself.

And NO, having family who served in WWII does not make you knowledgeable. ESPECIALLY if the guy was Air Force, and ESPECIALLY if your knowledge stops at Vietnam. You are NOT knowledgeable AT ALL, as evidenced in the way you explained the function of an M-16, and not even knowing what we are using now. FAIL.
When the Afghan war started both M-16A2's and M-4's were issued out in the field and both had 3-round burst fire modes. And what, you're gonna tell me that 3-round bursts waste more ammo than switching to full auto? I thought that was the whole reason the Army was encouraging these variations.

For what it's worth, I had another uncle who saw fierce fighting in France along with his son who was in the same division after D-Day. As far as my great uncle is concerned, I'm sure you think, "oh, those guys in the Air Force are a bunch of pu$$ies. But actually, I think my great uncle fought in Korea too. How wussy can those guys be when their getting shot at just like any infantryman on the ground?

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Drake
It's wrong to go after ANY veteran's military record, especially combat. This goes for dems AND republicans. Going after Kerry's record was wrong on multiple levels. And don't even get me started on McCain. The man was a POW, FFS...
You know...I actually somewhat agree with that. One of the main reasons I've found myself doing it is because the Republicans have been so shameless about it. And you know, actually, throughout this countries history, there have been more Democrats who have served in our armed forces than Republicans. That makes it seem even more disgraceful for me that, whenever the Republicans get in office, they're the first ones to start clambering for war. It's usually for some sort of economic reason too. Bush and Cheney were willing to throw away thousands of American lives so Halliburton, Chevron, Unocal, and Shell could make hundreds of billions. That's the real sad part about all of this. It's an outrage!

[BoulderDawg]

Oh man! I'm just so f'ing pised right now!

Ward Churchill's lawsuit against the University of Colorado begins on monday. Tonight they held a support rally for Ward here in Boulder that featured Ward and Bill Ayres.....I totally missed it!!!!!!! DAM!!!!!!!

I hope he takes CU for every dime they have...and gets his job back to boot!

If anyone is interested in more info:

http://wardchurchill.net/

http://wardchurchilltrial.wordpress.com/

[Kansuke]

I hope the two of you are sewn into a sack full of rapid polecats and tossed into the Colorado River.

[Drake]

When the Afghan war started both M-16A2's and M-4's were issued out in the field and both had 3-round burst fire modes. And what, you're gonna tell me that 3-round bursts waste more ammo than switching to full auto? I thought that was the whole reason the Army was encouraging these variations.

For what it's worth, I had another uncle who saw fierce fighting in France along with his son who was in the same division after D-Day. As far as my great uncle is concerned, I'm sure you think, "oh, those guys in the Air Force are a bunch of pu$$ies. But actually, I think my great uncle fought in Korea too. How wussy can those guys be when their getting shot at just like any infantryman on the ground?

We fire in semi mode. The M16A2, A4, and M4 have three functions, safe, semi, and burst. Nobody uses burst, and I'd like to see someone land three shots on someone's head firing in burst. Second, no platoon leaves without crew served weapons. A SAW, at minimum, is coming along, though most bring their 240Bs, as that accounts for 1/3 of their fighting power.

I never called the Air Force wussies. I'm saying that knowing someone who was in the AF in WWII does not make you knowledgeable on modern Army TTPs.

[1bad65]

Ward Churchill's lawsuit against the University of Colorado begins on monday. Tonight they held a support rally for Ward here in Boulder that featured Ward and Bill Ayres.....I totally missed it!!!!!!! DAM!!!!!!!

So this Ward Churchill POSEUR, who can't figure out he is an Indian or not an Indian or only part Indian :rolleyes:, is bringing a convicted terrorist to support his lawsuit? :rolleyes:

What an idiot.

[1bad65]

You remember the poseur Ward Churchill, right:

"I am myself of Muscogee and Creek descent on my father's side, Cherokee on my mother's, and am an enrolled member of the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians."

In 1992, Churchill wrote elsewhere that he is one-eighth Creek and one-sixteenth Cherokee.

In 1993, Churchill told the Colorado Daily that, “he was one-sixteenth Creek and Cherokee”.

Then he fessed up: "I have never been confirmed as having one-quarter blood, and never said I was. And even if [the critics] are absolutely right, what does that have to do with this issue? I have never claimed to be god****ed Sitting Bull."

Of course he fessup AFTER the jig was up:

The United Keetoowah Band clarified that Churchill was never an enrolled member, but was awarded an honorary associate membership in May 1994, as were Bill Clinton and others; honorary associate membership recognizes assistance to the tribe, but does not indicate Indian ancestry or enrollment.

[1bad65]

And he did it for personal gain:

Documents in Churchill’s university personnel file show that he was granted tenure in a "special opportunity position." Such positions were later described as a program designed to help "recruit and hire a more diverse faculty.

[1bad65]

So why is the POSEUR Ward Churchill suing the University? Lets see:

On May 16, 2006 the University released its investigative committee findings. The Investigative Committee, a five-member subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Research Misconduct, agreed unanimously that Churchill had engaged in "serious research misconduct," including four counts of falsifying information, two counts of fabricating information, two counts of plagiarizing the works of others, improperly reporting the results of studies, and failing to "comply with established standards regarding author names on publications." In addition, the committee found him "disrespectful of Indian oral traditions."

The Standing Committee on Research Misconduct accepted the findings of the Investigative Committee that Churchill had "committed serious, repeated, and deliberate research misconduct."

On July 24, 2007, the University regents voted seven to two to uphold all seven of the findings of research misconduct, overruling the recommendation of Privilege and Tenure panel that two of them be dismissed. They then fired Churchill by vote of eight to one. The sole dissenter, Cindy Carlisle, had argued for the sanctions recommended by the majority of the Privilege and Tenure dismissal panel.

University president Hank Brown said of the firing, "This case was an example not of mistakes, but an effort to falsify history and fabricate history and in the final analysis, this individual did not express regret or apologize. This is a faculty that has an outstanding reputation and this move today protects that reputation."

On the following day, Churchill filed a lawsuit in state court claiming that the firing was retribution for expressing politically unpopular views. The University filed for dismissal on September 4, 2007.

[BoulderDawg]

The United Keetoowah Band clarified that Churchill was never an enrolled member, but was awarded an honorary associate membership in May 1994, as were Bill Clinton and others; honorary associate membership recognizes assistance to the tribe, but does not indicate Indian ancestry or enrollment.

I heard Russell Means speak several years back. He called Ward his brother and said he was a full blooded Indian. That's all the proof I need.

Professor Churchill is going to win this. Before he was savagely attacked for his political views he had risen to head his department and was known as one of the top professors at the University. That is unless they get people like you on the jury with narrows minds with an agenda.

However the biggest argument, and the one that's going to hold the most weight, is that he's the only one who's been fire in ages. It's my understanding that Ward is going to trot out a dozen or more cases of professors whos research looked like it was written by a middle schooler copying from a book. Not to mention tentured professors who were so drunk they were not even able to teach class.

[1bad65]

I heard Russell Means speak several years back. He called Ward his brother and said he was a full blooded Indian. That's all the proof I need.

He still lied about his ancestry, no matter who called him a 'brother'. He even admitted it! He may have fooled Mr Means 'several years back', but he is not an Indian in any way.

FYI, Russell Means is about 180 degrees away from a space cadet on you in political terms. He is a Libertarian, not a socialist. He has ran for office as a Libertarian. Who here votes Libertarian? Oh yeah, ME!!!


Professor Churchill is going to win this.

Wanna bet?


It's my understanding that Ward is going to trot out a dozen or more cases of professors whos research looked like it was written by a middle schooler copying from a book.

People like himself? :D

[Drake]

I'm looking into this guy...

He actually attacked Native Americans for them requiring blood relation in order for you to be allowed in. WELL DUHHHHHH!

[Drake]

"On May 16, 2006 the University released its investigative committee findings. The Investigative Committee, a five-member subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Research Misconduct, agreed unanimously that Churchill had engaged in "serious research misconduct," including four counts of falsifying information, two counts of fabricating information, two counts of plagiarizing the works of others, improperly reporting the results of studies, and failing to "comply with established standards regarding author names on publications." In addition, the committee found him "disrespectful of Indian oral traditions." Two members found that Churchill's actions did not warrant dismissal and that the most appropriate sanction was suspension. While the remaining three found that his conduct was grounds for dismissal, they were split as to what the most appropriate sanction was—two believed suspension was appropriate and one stated dismissal was appropriate.[2]

In its report, the investigative sub-committee "expresses its concern regarding the timing and perhaps the motives for the University's decision to forward charges made in that context."[2] The Standing Committee's final report, however, states that they could not ignore the charges against Churchill given their seriousness.[44]"

Sounds like a great guy...

[1bad65]

Hey Drake, what's your Indian ancestry?

I'll post mine, using the Ward Churchill system:

I'm 1/2 Apache and 3/4 Sioux.

No wait, I'm 1/8 Seminole on my mom's side, and 1/2 Navajo.

My bad, the 1/4 Seminole is from my dad's side. But I'm still 1/2 Iroquois.

I can prove it too. I have a Player's Club card from the Grand Casino Coushatta in Louisina. And I have pictures of me with members of the Alabama-Coushatta tribe in Texas when I was on a family vacation as a kid.

Never mind, it doesn't matter. After all, I never claimed to be Chief Joseph.

[SimonM]

IT would appear that Churchill is, by his own admittance, a plagiarist (re: the Winter Attack serigraph).

As such, regardless of his politics, he probably should have been disciplined.

Now this isn't saying that his dismissal wasn't politically motivated. This is just saying that sometimes it's more becoming to cut somebody loose when they have done something wrong and got slapped for doing so even if there were ulterior motives on the part of the people doing the slapping.

[1bad65]

I'm looking into this guy...

He actually attacked Native Americans for them requiring blood relation in order for you to be allowed in. WELL DUHHHHHH!

That's too funny! :D

[Drake]

I'm NA on my mother's side, but I haven't the slightest clue to what degree, or even from what tribe. I just write myself off as white with some NA features :)

[BoulderDawg]

He still lied about his ancestry, no matter who called him a 'brother'. He even admitted it! He may have fooled Mr Means 'several years back', but he is not an Indian in any way.

FYI, Russell Means is about 180 degrees away from a space cadet on you in political terms. He is a Libertarian, not a socialist. He has ran for office as a Libertarian. Who here votes Libertarian? Oh yeah, ME!!!

I've met Russell on a few occasions. There is no way, shape or form that he identifies with any of your political views.

By the way, Russell is going to be at the trial backing Ward up....so if you two guys are so similar you can also go on the web site I linked and donate to the Churchill legal fund. Russell would like that.

By the way, you don't understand the Indian culture at all.

[BoulderDawg]

People like himself? :D

I'm sure in your opinion they are exacly like Ward. However there is one big difference......They are still tentured professors and no one is investigating them.

They must have supported McCain in the last election.:D

[SimonM]

Tenured professors generally don't indulge in the appropriation of artwork by a third party for profit.

Sorry Bolderdawg but this guy isn't worthy of advocacy.

As for Russel... I'm afraid you are misleading yourself. He has all the classic signs of corrupt Libertarian ideology. Heck, he supported the Contras!

[BoulderDawg]

Tenured professors generally don't indulge in the appropriation of artwork by a third party for profit.

Sorry Bolderdawg but this guy isn't worthy of advocacy.

As for Russel... I'm afraid you are misleading yourself. He has all the classic signs of corrupt Libertarian ideology. Heck, he supported the Contras!

You lost me...artwork?

Anyway, you're not in academenia are you. You would be amazed at the actions of tentured professors.

As far as Russell goes, He supports Ward. We may differ on a few political opinons but we respect those differences and look for common ground. The big thing is that Russell has always been dedicated (as Ward has) to civl and human rights for all Indians.

[SimonM]

Civil rights issues would be something he could be able to stand behind with more ease if he hadn't supported the contras. Sorry but supporting the USA backed murder of Sandinistas doesn't put somebody high up my buddy list.

And I couldn't care less what skin colour he is.

As for academia I applied to enter a masters program earlier this year. I am familliar with academic foibles. However I also have a very strong stance on plagiarism.

And as for plagiarism of artwork... research it. It took me 2 seconds on wikipedia to find an admission of plagiarism from Churchill.

[BoulderDawg]

Civil rights issues would be something he could be able to stand behind with more ease if he hadn't supported the contras. Sorry but supporting the USA backed murder of Sandinistas doesn't put somebody high up my buddy list.

And I couldn't care less what skin colour he is.

As for academia I applied to enter a masters program earlier this year. I am familliar with academic foibles. However I also have a very strong stance on plagiarism.

And as for plagiarism of artwork... research it. It took me 2 seconds on wikipedia to find an admission of plagiarism from Churchill.

I don't do wikipedia so I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Anyway, when did applying to a college give you insight to the academic world?

So you take a strong stance on plagiarism? You do understand that if you took every tentured prof in the US and combed through his works that you could find "Plagiarism" in all of their research. Have you read any Churchill? I have......almost half the book is taken up with footnotes. He's an extremely well read man. It doesn't surpise me that a statement or two may have been used that was not referenced. However if we want to hold everyone's feet to the fire then so be it.

[SimonM]

Applying for a masters is predicated upon having completed an honours BA. That means having gone through 4 years of university. It's also worth mentioning that I taught at a teachers college in China for 2.5 years. I am familliar with academia.

Adding lots of footnotes to a book does not denote an absence of plagiarism.

Well read is easy. Hell, I'm well read and I'm not a PhD.

But, then again, I don't lie about my ethnicity to secure tenure either.

And then there is this:


his 1981 serigraph "Winter Attack" was, according to Churchill and others, based on a 1972 drawing by artist Thomas E. Mails.[61] Churchill printed 150 copies of "Winter Attack" and sold at least one of them; other copies have been made available for purchase online. Churchill maintained that at the time he produced "Winter Attack", he publicly acknowledged that it was based on Mails' work.

[1bad65]

I've met Russell on a few occasions. There is no way, shape or form that he identifies with any of your political views.

He's ran as a Libertarian. You may not like it, and you may deny it, but it's 100% true.


By the way, you don't understand the Indian culture at all.

I agree. But I'm not a poseur that pretends to be one. Especially not to further my career, like your hero did.

[1bad65]

But, then again, I don't lie about my ethnicity to secure tenure either.

Ouch.

That had to hurt.

[BoulderDawg]

Adding lots of footnotes to a book does not denote an absence of plagiarism.

You did not read or understand my post.

If you scrutinize the works of every tentured prof you're going to find something in about 99% of the cases. Most of it's oversight but if we are going to fire Prof Churchill over it then we need to hold everyone's feet to the fire.

Do you honestly believe that his political views had nothing to do with the events that transpired? That's the matter before the court. Good luck in proving that.

Also, I would feel the same way if lets say there was some proffessor who wrote a paper on "Liberal terrorists" and then found that he was being fired because he did not document several sources in the thousands of pages of research that he had done. It's all about academic freedom. There are conservatives who support Ward 100%.

[BoulderDawg]

He's ran as a Libertarian. You may not like it, and you may deny it, but it's 100% true.

I don't like or dislike it. Russell's party associations are his business.

If you have an issue with it then how can you support a man who supports Ward?

[1bad65]

I'm NA on my mother's side, but I haven't the slightest clue to what degree, or even from what tribe. I just write myself off as white with some NA features :)

By the Ward Churchill standard, you're full-blooded!

You should now put American Indian and see if furthers your career. You know, like the poseur Ward Churchill did. ;)

[SimonM]

You did not read or understand my post.

If you scrutinize the works of every tentured prof you're going to find something in about 99% of the cases. Most of it's oversight but if we are going to fire Prof Churchill over it then we need to hold everyone's feet to the fire.

Really? Based on what information? Just your 'gut'?



Do you honestly believe that his political views had nothing to do with the events that transpired? That's the matter before the court. Good luck in proving that.


No.

Actually I said it was likely his political views DID play a role. I said that it didn't matter; if he has, in fact, committed plagiarism he should be fired.



Also, I would feel the same way if lets say there was some proffessor who wrote a paper on "Liberal terrorists" and then found that he was being fired because he did not document several sources in the thousands of pages of research that he had done. It's all about academic freedom. There are conservatives who support Ward 100%.

And there are socialists (such as myself) who think that plagiarists should be fired for plagiarism.

[BoulderDawg]

And there are socialists (such as myself) who think that plagiarists should be fired for plagiarism.

Then tell me the specific plagiaristc events that you felt were obvious intellectual theft and not just reference oversight. Also, based of the text involved in each example, what makes you think these were blantant consciense actions.

Someone who understand the academic world as well as you should be able to answer these questions.

[Drake]

By the Ward Churchill standard, you're full-blooded!

You should now put American Indian and see if furthers your career. You know, like the poseur Ward Churchill did. ;)

Nah...I check the "Whitey" or "Cracker" box on all of my paperwork. :) I can't back up that part of my heritage, and I don't think there are even any written records, so I skip it.

I HAVE BD on ignore, but people are still quoting him. So, regarding the plagiarism nonsense. If everybody you know robbed banks, does that make it right? Can you even PROVE that others at this university have committed plagiarism? "I'm pretty sure" doesn't cut it.

I absolutely HATE it when people make statements and have NOTHING to back it up. :mad:

People like BD make me not like liberals...

[SimonM]

Then tell me the specific plagiaristc events that you felt were obvious intellectual theft and not just reference oversight. Also, based of the text involved in each example, what makes you think these were blantant consciense actions.

Someone who understand the academic world as well as you should be able to answer these questions.

I already referenced (and quoted) information where he has admitted to drawing profit from another person's intellectual property. I don't honestly care enough to go combing through his work for more.

I find his claiming of an ethnic background he does not have to get tenure to be offensive though as he was occupying a valued position which would have either have gone to a) a more qualified recipient, b) a recipient who would have brought real ethnic diversity to the faculty rather than a white guy who pretends to be native or c) a more qualified recipient who would have brought real ethnic diversity to the faculty.

This man is a hypocrite in that he is one of the worst perpetrators of cultural appropriation I have come across and yet he rails against cultural appropriation in popular culture.

Your request for me to prove that he has plagiarized willingly (and not simply omitted citations by accident) is a straw dog. The burden lies upon an author to check his work for such errors prior to publication, not upon me to second-guess the motives of specific omissions. Furthermore one of the key issues of the controversy surrounds misrepresentation and misquoting of authors in addition to failure to cite. These errors are not as straightforward as failure to cite but are equally egregious academic errors.

[BoulderDawg]

I don't honestly care enough to go combing through his work for more.

So you haven't read Ward's work......:D

Doesn't suprise me. Until you know what you're taking about your comments are meaningless.

Go read and come back with an informed opinion.

[1bad65]

Nah...I check the "Whitey" or "Cracker" box on all of my paperwork. :) I can't back up that part of my heritage, and I don't think there are even any written records, so I skip it.

But that didn't stop Ward Churchill! :D

Yeah, BD is a space cadet who cannot accept he is ever wrong or others are ever right.

If someone like Ward Churchill told him 2+2=5, you could never convince him otherwise. But by me answering him, others can see who the loon is.

[1bad65]

I already referenced (and quoted) information where he has admitted to drawing profit from another person's intellectual property. I don't honestly care enough to go combing through his work for more.

I find his claiming of an ethnic background he does not have to get tenure to be offensive though as he was occupying a valued position which would have either have gone to a) a more qualified recipient, b) a recipient who would have brought real ethnic diversity to the faculty rather than a white guy who pretends to be native or c) a more qualified recipient who would have brought real ethnic diversity to the faculty.

This man is a hypocrite in that he is one of the worst perpetrators of cultural appropriation I have come across and yet he rails against cultural appropriation in popular culture.

Your request for me to prove that he has plagiarized willingly (and not simply omitted citations by accident) is a straw dog. The burden lies upon an author to check his work for such errors prior to publication, not upon me to second-guess the motives of specific omissions. Furthermore one of the key issues of the controversy surrounds misrepresentation and misquoting of authors in addition to failure to cite. These errors are not as straightforward as failure to cite but are equally egregious academic errors.

Very well said, Simon. Though we are at opposite ends of the political spectrum, we can both see that a liar is a liar.

[SimonM]

So you haven't read Ward's work......:D

Doesn't suprise me. Until you know what you're taking about your comments are meaningless.

Go read and come back with an informed opinion.

Actually I have read one of his essays. I wasn't hunting for misquotes when I did so. Considering my opinion of the man I am not inclined to re-read just to appease you.

I found "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" to be a viable essay in some regards with specific reference to the impact of USA foreign policy on foreign relations and the interconnectedness of the 9/11 attacks on the WTC with foreign policy to be viable enough however I am uncomfortable with the classification he attempts of the WTC as a military target.

I find Slavoj Zizek's commentaries on the impact of 9/11 on the collective psyche of the USA to be much more erudite on a whole and suggest you read "Welcome to the Desert of the Real".

Of course this article demonstrates the extent to which Zizek and I tend to agree on many issues... so I'll toss it out here just to be controversial. ;) (http://mondediplo.com/2008/05/09tibet)

[GLW]

In regards to Churchill's case, his responses to the charges of plagiarism are pretty lame.

In those areas, he probably has less chance than a one-legged man in a butt kicking contest.

However, if he were able to show that the University KNEW of the issues with plagiarism and were OK with it UNTIL he made his more inflammatory statements. And then, when he became a focal point for his political views, the University decided that something they were originally fine with was now fodder for a convenient way to rid themselves of an annoying political lightning rod... Then he might have a case.

However, that would be REALLY unlikely. It is not very likely that a tenured professor would have a document or anything in writing saying "You were guilty of plagiarism in these X number of instances. Don't do it again, but we are not going to pursue this beyond this note...."

Plagiarism is one of the worst things that any person in academia can do. So, since he seems to have publicly admitted it, he is more than likely toast....and probably SHOULD be for being stupid.

Anyone who makes their living in academia and then engages in plagiarism is asking for a big fall...and deserves one.

In a similar vein, if you are in academia and take advantage of your tenured position to be outspoken in your field or politically active, common sense should tell you that as a political target, you should keep a clean house and not give your enemies any valid targets.

So, in that light, Churchill was arrogant and stupid...regardless of whether or not he was right or wrong...and the arrogance and stupidity canceled out his chances of being listened to in most circles....

[BoulderDawg]

The truth is that unless someone has actually read Churchill and knows what the accusations are about you really can't have an informed opinion of his responsibilty in these matters.

No matter, This will all come out in court. Who knows, I might find some time to go down next week and take my shift in having Ward's back.

[SimonM]

As I have A: read Churchill and B: Expressed an understanding of the issues surrounding his dismissal I suppose that means that you concede my opinion is informed regardless of whether you share it.

[bakxierboxer]

Quite the opposite. Rush wants LESS government, and more individual freedoms. Nazism/Fascism is BIG government, and less individual freedoms.

Oddly enough, Obama's grabs for more executive power are quite similar to what dictators (like Hitler) have done to gain total control.


One little-bitty thing that most seem to have missed during Rush's scheduled 20-minute speech that extended (with great good cheer from the audience) to almost an hour and a half.....
Right at the beginning, Rush stated outright that:

"I am NOT A REPUBLICAN!"
"I AM A CONSERVATIVE!"

[bakxierboxer]

Obama's plan sure looks familiar. Not to FDR, or Lincoln, but Hoover! :eek:

"The composition of the tax hikes in the 2010 budget is frighteningly similar to the Revenue Act of 1932, the much-maligned Hoover tax hikes that put the “Great” in Great Depression by putting an enormous tax burden on millions of Americans, largely through excise taxes."

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/03/02/kerpen_obama_hoover/

http://foxforum.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/kerpen_chart1.jpg


No wonder he says it will get worse before it gets better!


I dunno if anyone has already mentioned this..... I'm "playing "catch-up" after a WinVista "prollum" with finding the Internet.

The guy writes a nice article, but his math sucks.
The columns for 1932 are labeled in millions and those for 2010 are in billions.... which comes down into the totals for 2010 as $1,635.9 effin' TRILLION

Of course, adding just a little bit more significance to this is checking the current GDP:
"CIA - The World Factbook -- United States $14.58 trillion (2008 est.) GDP "
means that the tax increase based on todays' number would be something in excess of 10%, actually seeming to be about 11.22%.
OTOH...... GDP may well have gone down by then, meaning that the percentage will be even higher...........

[bakxierboxer]

Sounds like a great guy...

This is the same "great guy" who actually celebrated the deaths of Americans after the World Trade Center came down, condemning them as "Little Eichmanns".

Anyone who is not yet thoroughly disgusted with this piece of lower-species excrement can go look at a collection of "stuff" at:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1835

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by bakxierboxer
One little-bitty thing that most seem to have missed during Rush's scheduled 20-minute speech that extended (with great good cheer from the audience) to almost an hour and a half.....
Right at the beginning, Rush stated outright that:

"I am NOT A REPUBLICAN!"
"I AM A CONSERVATIVE!"
Reply With Quote
Finally we're back on Rush. I haven't really kept up with the Churchill story. I do agree with his assessment that 911 (if it wasn't an inside job) was the result of American foreign policy. The Taliban were never nice people, yet Unocal wanted to do business with them and have an oil pipeline going to the Caspian sea. Then it blew up in everyone's faces.

But slandering Rush is fun and I don't have to go after anyone's military career to do it either. On Bill Clinton he said: "Never trust a draft dodger. Yet...that big pile of human excrement used a pilonidal cyst in his ass to avoid service in Vietnam.

I like what Elizabeth Edwards had to say about him:
My classmates went to Vietnam, he did not. He was 4F. He had a medical disability, the same medical disability that probably should have stopped him from spending a lifetime in a radio announcer's chair; but it is true, isn't it? If he has an inoperable position that allows him not to serve, presumably it should not allow him to sit for long periods of time the way he does.

Ya, so why is it he can't sit for long periods of time in a foxhole but he can sit his fat ass in a chair for the rest of his life spewing garbage? Oh, and Drake, you should love this one. He called all left-leaning military troops “phony soldiers.” Now, come on, going back to the Tillman debate, you know there is a culture of conservative butthe@ds in the military who agree wholeheartedly with that crap. You just know when smart, left-leaning, Pat came along, some of those stupid ass-licks wouldn't have thought twice about fragging his ass. I mean, come on, I wouldn't put anything past a die-hard fan of Rush "Ass Cyst" Limbaugh.

[Drake]

Finally we're back on Rush. I haven't really kept up with the Churchill story. I do agree with his assessment that 911 (if it wasn't an inside job) was the result of American foreign policy. The Taliban were never nice people, yet Unocal wanted to do business with them and have an oil pipeline going to the Caspian sea. Then it blew up in everyone's faces.

But slandering Rush is fun and I don't have to go after anyone's military career to do it either. On Bill Clinton he said: "Never trust a draft dodger. Yet...that big pile of human excrement used a pilonidal cyst in his ass to avoid service in Vietnam.

I like what Elizabeth Edwards had to say about him:
My classmates went to Vietnam, he did not. He was 4F. He had a medical disability, the same medical disability that probably should have stopped him from spending a lifetime in a radio announcer's chair; but it is true, isn't it? If he has an inoperable position that allows him not to serve, presumably it should not allow him to sit for long periods of time the way he does.

Ya, so why is it he can't sit for long periods of time in a foxhole but he can sit his fat ass in a chair for the rest of his life spewing garbage? Oh, and Drake, you should love this one. He called all left-leaning military troops “phony soldiers.” Now, come on, going back to the Tillman debate, you know there is a culture of conservative ********s in the military who agree wholeheartedly with that crap. You just know when smart, left-leaning, Pat came along, some of those stupid ass-licks wouldn't have thought twice about fragging his ass. I mean, come on, I wouldn't put anything past a die-hard fan of Rush "Ass Cyst" Limbaugh.


Rush's approval rating is somewhere around 10%, so I take what he says with a grain of salt. The GOPs rallying around him is yet another very VERY bad move for the party. He can call me whatever he wants. I served... he didn't.

And I say again... we don't frag over political leanings. The fraggings that DID occur in Iraq have been over superiors slamming suboordinates and basicaly ruining their careers while in a combat environment. Nobody cares if you vote for Jimmy the Wonder Boy, but a bad NCOER or Article 15 can stir up some serious madness. You check that political crap in at the door.

[1bad65]

I like what Elizabeth Edwards had to say about him:

She needs to spend more time keeping tabs on her husband than attacking a guy on the radio.

[1bad65]

What if Rush had just gotten 5 draft deferrments instead, like Joe Biden did?

[BoulderDawg]

What I don't think people realize is that people like Rush Limbaugh supports Ward Churchill. Because if Ward is denied his right to freedom of speech then can Limpy's radio show be far behind?

[Drake]

What if Rush had just gotten 5 draft deferrments instead, like Joe Biden did?

A draft dodger is still a draft dodger, regardless if someone is better at it than him. :D

[1bad65]

What I don't think people realize is that people like Rush Limbaugh supports Ward Churchill. Because if Ward is denied his right to freedom of speech then can Limpy's radio show be far behind?

Freedom of speech does include the right to STEAL other's intellectual property like your lying hero did.

And that poseur is not being prosecuted/censured by the Government, he is arguing his firing from a university.

[Drake]

Freedom of speech does include the right to STEAL other's intellectual property like your lying hero did.

And that poseur is not being prosecuted/censured by the Government, he is arguing his firing from a university.

People always confuse freedom of speech with freedom to use a radio station, or in this case, university, in order to promote themselves. Churchill can go out and say whatever he wants, but the university isn't going to pay him to do so.

I promise you, the second Rush becomes unprofitable, they'll drop him. It's about money, not politics.

[Drake]

Freedom of speech does include the right to STEAL other's intellectual property like your lying hero did.

And that poseur is not being prosecuted/censured by the Government, he is arguing his firing from a university.

Dude, he's a socialist. He thinks everything is state-owned. :D

[BoulderDawg]

Freedom of speech does include the right to STEAL other's intellectual property like your lying hero did.

And that poseur is not being prosecuted/censured by the Government, he is arguing his firing from a university.

As I've repeated here before: Prove that statement. Show me the works that were susposely STOLE and compare to Ward's work.

By the way CU is a public university. My state tax dollars are going to support it. He is being censored by the government.

[BoulderDawg]

Trail starts monday........As I said I'm going to try and make it down for a day or two to support Ward.

I think Ward will win but I don't think they'll give him his job back. If that happened I'm sure the university would just put him in an office with no responsiblities.

Either way CU has already paid for this. I have a friend who's a physics asst professor that's telling me that's he's on the verge of just telling CU to cram it and going somewhere else to start over. The only drawback is it would probably be another decade before he would get tenture. He is telling me though that no PHDs in their right mind are staring their careers at CU.

In any case, no matter what the outcome of this case will be I'm fairly certain it will go all the way to the supreme court.

[1bad65]

As I've repeated here before: Prove that statement. Show me the works that were susposely STOLE and compare to Ward's work.

What part of 'He admitted it himself' is not penetrating your tinfoil hat?

[1bad65]

He is telling me though that no PHDs in their right mind are staring their careers at CU.

Someone is lying, you or him.

"According to Thomas Brown, one of Churchill's critics in the academy, support for Churchill has dwindled. Brown states that in February 2005, 199 CU faculty members signed a newspaper article supporting Churchill, but in July 2007, only four CU faculty signed another letter protesting his imminent firing."

http://www.plagiary.org/2007/twelve-excuses.pdf

[BoulderDawg]

What part of 'He admitted it himself' is not penetrating your tinfoil hat?


You made the statement that he stole something. Back up that mouth with some proof. Who did he steal from? Compare their work with Ward's work.

[BoulderDawg]

Someone is lying, you or him.

"According to Thomas Brown, one of Churchill's critics in the academy, support for Churchill has dwindled. Brown states that in February 2005, 199 CU faculty members signed a newspaper article supporting Churchill, but in July 2007, only four CU faculty signed another letter protesting his imminent firing."

http://www.plagiary.org/2007/twelve-excuses.pdf

I didn't see a whole lot of support for the women at the Salem witch trial either!:D

Where and what lie is being told? As my friend said, this has nothing to do with politics. They fired a professor for exercising his rights to free speech. Am I next?

[1bad65]

That link I posted is a good read. It lists the poseur's excuses. He uses the same excuse-making technique he did when he lied about his ancestry.

"I'm the real author."
"I was just the 'rewrite guy.'"
"Okay, so maybe I 'rewrote' it, but I didn't take credit for it."
"But I cited the real authors."
"It's all the editors' fault. For some reason they gave me authorship credit I didn't deserve."
"But Churchill didn't pagiarize everything he's ever published. Only some of it!"
"But other people have gotten away with plagiarism."
"It's okay to plagiarize from people you once worked with."
"I, like, did ot on behalf of 'The Movement', man."
"Holding me responsible for my research misconduct constitutes academic double jeopardy."
"I never made any profit from 'rewriting' other people's work."
"Holding me responsible my plagiarism violates my right to free speech."

I think I see which excuse he is currently using. ;)

[BoulderDawg]

Here's a place to start your research:

After combing through more than 4,000 pages and 12,000 footnotes of Ward Churchill’s publications, CU found only a handful of minor points to dispute. CU called them “fraud” and “plagiarism” but they were really questions of historical interpretation and claimed deviation from unspecified “standards.”

Many people have been fooled by the heft of the Investigative Committee’s 124-page Report. In fact, most of the allegations were dropped. The charges boiled down to:
4 questions of interpretation of sources concerning smallpox epidemics or
“blood quantum” laws.

3 charges of ghostwriting and attribution of authorship, under “standards” the
Committee never could identify. The author whose work was supposedly
plagiarized never accused Ward Churchill of doing so.

Why shouldn’t we believe the “Investigative Report”?

CU’s Report was so shoddy that two research misconduct complaints were filed against the Committee by 9 CU professors, 7 outside professors, and 2 attorneys. These scholars, who do have expertise in the field, accused the Committee of intentionally distorting, falsifying, and fabricating evidence in order to discredit Prof. Churchill’s scholarship. CU’s response? The administrators who claimed such concern about the “academic integrity” of Ward’s work refused to investigate these charges. Several other formal complaints have been filed against Committee members, but none have been investigated.

***********

As I said, show me the plagiarized works you are talking about and how they compared to Wards.

[1bad65]

You made the statement that he stole something. Back up that mouth with some proof. Who did he steal from? Compare their work with Ward's work.

The poseur stole from Rebecca Robbins, Annette Jaimes, Fay Cohen, and "Dam the Dams".

The proof is he lost his job.

[Drake]

Funny how nobody wants proof when they slam Pres. Bush or think Pat Tillman was assassinated, but when it comes to their own lying, stealing monsters, they want DNA samples.

Here.

http://www.plagiary.org/2007/twelve-excuses.pdf

Here.

http://www.colorado.edu/news/reports/churchill/report.html

Here...

http://www.campusreportonline.net/main/articles.php?id=1025

If you can't find enough examples here, I suggest a reading comprehension course...

[1bad65]

You gotta love this part:

"Also, the University believed Churchill's dubious claim that he was an Indian himself, and hired him under a deversty program. Churchill was then tenured without serving the usual probationary period, even though he lacks the requisite academic credentials."

[Drake]

Here's the full report... good, but looooong, read.

http://www.famousplagiarists.com/churchill-report.pdf

[1bad65]

Funny how nobody wants proof when they slam Pres. Bush or think Pat Tillman was assassinated, but when it comes to their own lying, stealing monsters, they want DNA samples.

Quoted for truth.

[BoulderDawg]

Do you people not undertstand when I say show the plagiarism:

Show the works he was suppose to have plariarized and then show where Ward stole them. You people are making the accusations here. Show me what he did. Don't tell me someone else said he did something. Where the work?

[Drake]

SPECIFIC EXAMPLES from the report.

The original pamphlet (“The Water Plot”), which is unpaginated
In Northwestern Ontario a water diversion scheme far larger than the James Bay Project has been planned and awaits only the right climate of public opinion to be put into operation.
Should Canada’s waters be diverted southward to supply the growing demand for clean, fresh water in the United States? According to those who propose such schemes, Canada would earn a great deal of foreign exchange thereby and would benefit greatly from the employment created by the construction of the required dams, dykes, canals, tunnels and pumping stations. So far, so good; but once these works are built, what then? This pamphlet attempts to answer this question as far as possible in terms of specific events that have already happened and to demonstrate that, not only are the benefits of such schemes vastly over-rated, but what little real benefit could be derived from them will be greatly outweighed by the costs of their adverse consequences.
Dam the Dams Campaign and the Institute for Natural Progress, “The Water
Plot: Hydrological Rape in Northern Canada,” in Critical Issues in Native North America, Vol. I, ed. Ward Churchill (Copenhagen: International Work
Group on Indigenous Affairs, Doc. 68, 1989), p. 137
In northern Canada, a water diversion scheme far larger than the James Bay Project has been planned and awaits only the right climate of public opinion to be put in operation. Should Canada’s hydroelectricity and clean, fresh waters be diverted southward to supply the growing demand of the United States? According to those who propose such ideas, Canada would earn a great deal of foreign exchange thereby, and would benefit considerably from the employment created by construction of the required dams, ****s, canals, tunnels and pumping stations. So far, so good, but what happens once these works are built? This paper attempts to answer the question as far as possible in terms of
210 One footnote is here omitted from each of the later works except for the Z Magazine piece, which had none. None of the notes refers to the Dam the Dams pamphlet.
85
specific events which have already occurred, and to demonstrate that what little benefit might actually accrue to the inhabitants of the Canadian north will be vastly outweighed by the costs of the adverse human and environmental consequences.
Ward Churchill, “The Water Plot,” Z Magazine, April 1993, p. 88
In northern Canada, a water diversion scheme far larger than the combined James Bay Projects (see Winona LaDuke, Z June 1990) has been planned and awaits the right climate of public opinion to be put in operation. Should Canada’s hydroelectricity and clean, fresh waters be diverted southward to supply the growing demand of the United States? According to those who propose such ideas, Canada would earn a great deal of foreign exchange, and would benefit considerably from the employment created by construction of the required dams, ****s, canals, tunnels, and pumping stations. So far, so good, but what happens once these works are built?
Ward Churchill, “The Water Plot: Hydrological Rape in Northern Canada,” in his Struggle for the Land: Indigenous Resistance to Genocide, Ecocide, and Expropriation in Contemporary North America (Monroe, ME: Common Courage Press, 1993), p. 329
In northern Canada, a water diversion scheme far larger than anything yet undertaken in the United States has been planned, piloted, and awaits only the right climate of public opinion to become a reality. By diverting Canada’s hydroelectricity and clean, fresh waters to support the growing demand of the lower 48 U.S. states, the plan’s proponents argue, Canada would earn a great deal of foreign exchange, and profit considerably from the employment created by construction of the required dams, ****s, canals, tunnels and pumping stations. But while proponents say little about the future once these works are built, the marginal benefits that might actually accrue to Canadians will be vastly outweighed by the costs of adverse economic, human and environmental consequences.
Ward Churchill, “The Water Plot: Hydrological Rape in Northern Canada,” in his Struggle for the Land: Indigenous Resistance to Genocide, Ecocide, and Expropriation in Contemporary North America (revd. edit., San Francisco: City Lights Books, 2002), p. 292
In northern Canada, a water diversion scheme far larger than anything yet undertaken in the United States has been planned, piloted and awaits only the right climate of public opinion. The idea is to divert Canada’s hydroelectricity and clean, fresh waters to support the growing demand of the lower forty-eight U.S. states. According to proponents of the plan, Canada would earn a great deal of foreign exchange, and would profit considerably from the employment created by construction of the required dams, ****s, canals, tunnels and pumping stations. Little is said about what will happen once these works are built. As will be seen, what little benefit might actually accrue to the citizens of Canada will be
86
vastly outweighed by the costs of adverse economic, human and environmental consequences.
There are many similar examples. There are also many passages in the later works that do not appear in the pamphlet, and are apparently original—indeed, by its last appearance in 2002, the essay had grown to several times the size of the pamphlet. Nevertheless, the repeated occasions of near-verbatim repetition constitute the clearest and most undeniable evidence of plagiarism.

[Drake]

There you go... example. I have more, but you can also find them in the report.

[1bad65]

He's even more clueless than the O.J. jurors. :eek:

[1bad65]

There you go... example. I have more, but you can also find them in the report.

It's almost word-for-word! :D

Remember, as CONMEN get away with cons, they always get more brazen and audacious. This is often their downfall.

[BoulderDawg]

By the way Bad, how does this case concern you?

Ward Churchill was a college professor at the University of Colorado. Unless you're alumni , connected to the school in some way or live in the state then I don't see as to how it would be your business.

[Drake]

The Committee’s investigation of the seven allegations before us has unanimously found, by a preponderance of the evidence, that Professor Churchill committed several forms of academic misconduct as defined in the policy statements of the University of Colorado at Boulder and the University of Colorado system:231
1. Falsification, as discussed in Allegations A, B, C, and D.
2. Fabrication, as discussed in Allegations C and D.
3. Plagiarism, as discussed in Allegations E and G.
4. Failure to comply with established standards regarding author names on publications, as discussed most fully in Allegation F but also in Allegations A, B, and D.
5. Serious deviation from accepted practices in reporting results from research, as discussed in Allegation D.

[BoulderDawg]

You should do your homework. The "Water plot" was dropped from the complaint. as were about 90% of the rest of that report!:D

[Kansuke]

By the way Bad, how does this case concern you?

Ward Churchill was a college professor at the University of Colorado. Unless you're alumni , connected to the school in some way or live in the state then I don't see as to how it would be your business.



Of course you don't. But if circumstances were different you'd see it very clearly.



YOU ****ING HYPOCRITE.

[Drake]

"While not endorsing either the tone or the contents of those essays, the Committee reaffirms, as the University has already acknowledged, that Professor Churchill had a protected right to publish his views. In the Committee’s opinion, his right to do so was protected by both the First and Fourteenth Amendment guarantees of free speech. The aggressive pursuit of knowledge cannot proceed unless scientists, social scientists, and other researchers are permitted—and indeed encouraged—to present alternative and sometimes heretical positions and to seek to defend them in the court of academic opinion. Thus, the fact that Professor Churchill published those controversial essays was not part of the charge to the Committee and played absolutely no role in its deliberations."

[Drake]

I think BD likes his guy because they are kindred spirits. Both spread unsubstantiated lies and accusations and neither one can back his sh*t up. Like brothers! :D

[BoulderDawg]

"While not endorsing either the tone or the contents of those essays, the Committee reaffirms, as the University has already acknowledged, that Professor Churchill had a protected right to publish his views. In the Committee’s opinion, his right to do so was protected by both the First and Fourteenth Amendment guarantees of free speech. The aggressive pursuit of knowledge cannot proceed unless scientists, social scientists, and other researchers are permitted—and indeed encouraged—to present alternative and sometimes heretical positions and to seek to defend them in the court of academic opinion. Thus, the fact that Professor Churchill published those controversial essays was not part of the charge to the Committee and played absolutely no role in its deliberations."

And you expect the University to say otherwise?:D

Of course they are going to say "Chickens Roost" had nothing to do with their decision.

[BoulderDawg]

The one good thing about this is we'll actually have a way to measure who is right here. This is usually not the case in politics.

I really don't trust the people on the jury to make the right decision (Who knows, maybe they wiil) but in time Ward will win this case through appeal. If CU is smart they will settle the case now and save the Colorado taxpayers millions in legal fees.

I would really love to see Ward back on campus. He would be an inspiration to us all.

[Drake]

"Plagiarism in published academic research, lengthy footnotes notwithstanding; Allegedly called another professor in the middle of the night to threaten, "I'll get you for this!" after Dalhousie University Professor Fay G. Cohen criticized Churchill for plagiarizing her work "

Bwahahaha! Loser...

[1bad65]

I think BD likes his guy because they are kindred spirits. Both spread unsubstantiated lies and accusations and neither one can back his sh*t up. Like brothers! :D

Once again, you are quoted for truth.

[1bad65]

By the way Bad, how does this case concern you?

Ward Churchill was a college professor at the University of Colorado. Unless you're alumni , connected to the school in some way or live in the state then I don't see as to how it would be your business.


I really don't trust the people on the jury to make the right decision....

The backpeddaling has begun. :D

[1bad65]

So now that Drake has provided SPECIFIC examples as you asked, what's your new excuse? :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

So now that Drake has provided SPECIFIC examples as you asked, what's your new excuse? :rolleyes:


What part about "The Water Plot" is not going to be used" did you not understand. As I explained very little of that original report was actually used in the final determination. The vast majority of it was discredited.

You never answered my question: What business is this for yours? You're not a resident of Colorado (Thank God). You have no ties to the university.

[Drake]

Like I said... DNA samples...

[BoulderDawg]

The backpeddaling has begun. :D


Not at all, I'm just stating fact. My guess is the jury will prpbably be made up of senior citizens from the Cherry Creek area, white, conservative and rich. No different from the Rodney King beating trial or even, going back a ways, the Scopes Monkey trail. The lawyers in that case knew they would never win in open court. They knew they would have to wait for the appeals.

I expect total victory for Ward. It's just going to take a while.

[Drake]

"By researching those copious endnotes, however, the discerning reader will discover that notwithstanding all the provocative sound and fury rumbling through his essays, Churchill's analysis overall is sorely lacking in historical/factual veracity and scholarly integrity" (John LaVelle, University of New Mexico Law Professor who accused Churchill of plagiarism in 1999).

I guess the University of New Mexico is in on it too. Conspiracy! :D

[Drake]

And painters!!!! CONSPIRACY!! EEK!! :eek::eek:

Ward Churchill (5th Columnist) Busted for Copyright Infringement, Plagiarism, assaults cameraman
CBS4, Denver Post, and Rocky Mountain News ^ | 2-24-2005 | CBS4 and Rocky Mountain News

Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 8:52:29 AM by Thanatos

Evidence has been found that 5th Columinst Ward Churchill copied a painting by reknown artist Thomas E. Mails

Churchill's Serigraph is a mirror image of the Miles painting.



Churchill made the serigraph in question in 1981 and called it "Winter Attack." He printed 150 copies and sold one of them to Duke Prentup for about $100.

On Video, confronting Churchill about the obvious copyright violation by CBS4 Reporter Raj Chohan, Churchill then attacked the cameraman filming the incident.

[Drake]

Could it be?? Mediamythbusters too!! Oh, the humanity!! Get into your bomb shelters, everyone!!

Ward Churchill - University of Colorado

Churchill, Ward, Chairman of Ethnic Studies at the University of Colorado. Lying and plagiarism. He lied about his credentials and ethnic background to get a job in the first place. His “research” was laden with fabricated evidence, plagiarism and referencing his own previous writings under pseudonyms. He is worthy of Mary McCarthy’s quote about Lillian Hellman: “Every word (s)he writes is a lie, including ‘and’ and ‘the’.” He was fired.

[Drake]

"The Punishment in the Ward Churchill Case:

Though only one member of the Churchill investigative committee recommended that Churchill be fired -- two others recommended a five-year unpaid suspension, and two more recommended a two-year unpaid suspension -- it seems to me that this one member was right.

As best I can tell, from what press accounts I've read and from the Report itself, Churchill hasn't shown any contrition. His falsification, fabrication, and plagiarism (in the Committee's words), which the Committee quite plausibly found to be deliberate, are substantial.

And these are falsehoods in his published work, which can readily be checked. How can his future students be confident that things he says in class are accurate? (Yes, we try to instill skepticism in our students, but they still rightly expect that they can count on our factual assertions, rather than double-checking every word.) How can his colleagues, and Colorado taxpayers, be confident that his students are learning things accurately? His work has been cited by over 100 times in law reviews alone, and law isn't even his main field; I assume that quite a few scholars are now wondering whether their reliance on his work led their own work to be in error. How can other scholars, and his other readers, ever rely on anything he says?

It seems to me that keeping him on the faculty would be a substantial disservice to Colorado students, Colorado taxpayers, and the academic fields in which he works. I hope that in its sympathy for a colleague, and its desire to avoid hassle or even litigation, the University doesn't lose sight of that."

http://volokh.com/posts/1147835197.shtml#contact
Russians too?!!? New World Order! OMG!

[Drake]

And the Jewish community too???? OH NOES!! :eek::eek::eek:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/chavez072707.php3

If it's possible to earn a B.A. in Ethnic Studies at CU after spending four years as the subject of one's own reality, should we really be surprised that the faculty teaching in those programs might create their own reality as well? Of course, that is exactly what Ward Churchill did.


Churchill's fraud was simple and straightforward: He invented facts, falsely claiming, for example, that the United States adopted a racial code to categorize Indians similar to the infamous Nuremburg Laws enacted by the Nazis. He misrepresented others' scholarship, alleging that one scholar had produced evidence that the U.S. Army gave smallpox-infected blankets to Indians in 1837 when the work he cited said nothing of the sort. He plagiarized, copying sections of a pamphlet by a Canadian environmental group in a piece he wrote on Canadian water issues without attribution. He also published articles under false names so that he could then cite them as independent sources for work he published under his own name.

[Drake]

*in his best Axl Rose voice*

"They're out ta get me!"

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200503240801.asp

[Drake]

Even the Native Americans have turned on him!!!

"The American Indian Movement Grand Governing Council representing the National and International leadership of the American Indian Movement once again is vehemently and emphatically repudiating and condemning the outrageous statements made by academic literary and Indian fraud, Ward Churchill in relationship to the 9-11 tragedy in New York City that claimed thousands of innocent people’s lives.

Churchill’s statement that these people deserved what happened to them, and calling them little Eichmanns, comparing them to Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann, who implemented Adolf Hitler’s plan to exterminate European Jews and others, should be condemned by all.

The sorry part of this is Ward Churchill has fraudulently represented himself as an Indian, and a member of the American Indian Movement, a situation that has lifted him into the position of a lecturer on Indian activism. He has used the American Indian Movement’s chapter in Denver to attack the leadership of the official American Indian Movement with his misinformation and propaganda campaigns.

Ward Churchill has been masquerading as an Indian for years behind his dark glasses and beaded headband. He waves around an honorary membership card that at one time was issued to anyone by the Keetoowah Tribe of Oklahoma. Former President Bill Clinton and many others received these cards, but these cards do not qualify the holder a member of any tribe. He has deceitfully and treacherously fooled innocent and naïve Indian community members in Denver, Colorado, as well as many other people worldwide. Churchill does not represent, nor does he speak on behalf of the American Indian Movement. "

http://www.aimovement.org/moipr/churchill05.html

Black helicopters everywhere, shootin' at my tin foil hat!! AIIIIIIIEEEE!! :eek::eek:

:D

:rolleyes:

[1bad65]

academic literary and Indian fraud, Ward Churchill

That about sums him up.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by 1bad65
What if Rush had just gotten 5 draft deferrments instead, like Joe Biden did?
Oh, you mean like D!CK Cheney did.

Originally Posted by Drake
Funny how nobody wants proof when they slam Pres. Bush or think Pat Tillman was assassinated, but when it comes to their own lying, stealing monsters, they want DNA samples.

Who said there wasn't a lengthy investigation into Pat's death? There's all sorts of forensics evidence. They paid attention to every God **** shell and it's location on the battlefield. There's testimony from other men in his unit.

As for Bush, if you think this "War On Terror", a completely stupid and ridiculous concept in itself, is a righteous war and a good idea, then you need serious psychotherapy. Basically our guys are fighting for another "American century". Our leaders and their corporate puppeteers are trying to secure the resources in the Middle East. THAT is why soldiers are dying. They were dying for that monkeon Bush and his twisted sidekick/mentor. You supported fighting for those two? You admire them? If so then you're as blind as 1bad65.

[1bad65]

They were dying for that monkeon Bush and his twisted sidekick/mentor. You supported fighting for those two? You admire them? If so then you're as blind as 1bad65.

If it's all Bush's war, why are we still in Iraq and sending MORE soldiers to Afghanistan under Obama?

[Hardwork108]

As for Bush, if you think this "War On Terror", a completely stupid and ridiculous concept in itself, is a righteous war and a good idea, then you need serious psychotherapy. Basically our guys are fighting for another "American century". Our leaders and their corporate puppeteers are trying to secure the resources in the Middle East. THAT is why soldiers are dying. They were dying for that monkeon Bush and his twisted sidekick/mentor......

Very good points and explanation. Citizens/soldiers have been used as cannon foder for centuries. Wars are started under a cover story and then profits are made. The dead soldiers become "heroes" who "fought for their country" during the "War on......."[fill in the gap]. While the real instigators of the wars are counting their money and celelbrating one more successful step towards some sick agenda.

[Hardwork108]

If it's all Bush's war, why are we still in Iraq and sending MORE soldiers to Afghanistan under Obama?

Maybe because Bush and Obama have the same masters?

[Drake]

Oh, you mean like D!CK Cheney did.

Who said there wasn't a lengthy investigation into Pat's death? There's all sorts of forensics evidence. They paid attention to every God **** shell and it's location on the battlefield. There's testimony from other men in his unit.

As for Bush, if you think this "War On Terror", a completely stupid and ridiculous concept in itself, is a righteous war and a good idea, then you need serious psychotherapy. Basically our guys are fighting for another "American century". Our leaders and their corporate puppeteers are trying to secure the resources in the Middle East. THAT is why soldiers are dying. They were dying for that monkeon Bush and his twisted sidekick/mentor. You supported fighting for those two? You admire them? If so then you're as blind as 1bad65.

That is your opinion, and one you shouldn't profess as being fact. I see you never saw George Tenet's explanation for telling President Bush that Iraq DEFINITELY had WMDs. You probably also missed the UN resolutions and how a number of nations rallied around our decision. If you missed it, click here.

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/speeches-testimony/2004/tenet_georgetownspeech_02052004.html

People like Tenet and a good chunk of Europe are fair-weather friends. It's worse that Tenet is now making $$ by saying he opposed the war. Cowards.

As for GWOT, we were attacked by forced based out of Afghanistan. The Taliban not only refused to turn over those guilty, but outright defied us. We were not only right to have attacked, but we would've been terribly wrong to do anything else. I'm not sure how much you know about these guys, but they are some pretty terrible human beings.

Also, Tillman was not shot at close range. I've read the interviews of a guy standing right next to him when it happened.

[Drake]

Very good points and explanation. Citizens/soldiers have been used as cannon foder for centuries. Wars are started under a cover story and then profits are made. The dead soldiers become "heroes" who "fought for their country" during the "War on......."[fill in the gap]. While the real instigators of the wars are counting their money and celelbrating one more successful step towards some sick agenda.

The difference is that we have no compulsory service. Everybody in the Army is there because they want to be. And they certainly know there's a good chance of going to war by enlisting.

[Drake]

By God, spare us your evil. Pick up your goods and leave. We do not need an atomic bomb. We have the dual chemical. Let them take note of this. We have the dual chemical. It exists in Iraq.1

Saddam speaking about the Israeli, US, and UK intelligence services and Iraq’s development of binary CW munitions in a speech on 2 April 1990. (Foreign Broadcast Information Service 021329 April 1990).

How soon we forget...

[Drake]

" In April 1991, Iraqi initially declared to the UN only 30 warheads–all of them chemical. Iraq destroyed these under UNSCOM supervision. Of the 30 CW warheads:

* 16 contained unitary Sarin (GB) nerve agent
* 14 contained the cyclohexanol/isopropanol mixture that was the basis for Iraq’s “binary” GB/GF nerve agent. The methylphosphonic difluoride (DF) component for these warheads was also destroyed.

In addition to these 30 declared chemical warheads, Iraq initially concealed 20 undeclared chemical warheads from UNSCOM, which it destroyed in the summer of 1991. All were “binary” warheads filled with a mixture of cyclohexanol and isopropanol. "

I am growing tired of this "facts vs outbursts" madness...

[Hardwork108]

By God, spare us your evil. Pick up your goods and leave. We do not need an atomic bomb. We have the dual chemical. Let them take note of this. We have the dual chemical. It exists in Iraq.1

Drake, people always bluff when there is tough talk and even during a war. The fact seems to have been proven by the fact that Iraq did not use any of these Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Furthermore, some investigators said that they couldn't find these weapons. One of them (a British investigator) went as far as to say that the whole story was "sexed up". He was found dead soon after, apparently as a result of "suicide".

Saddam speaking about the Israeli, US, and UK intelligence services and Iraq’s development of binary CW munitions in a speech on 2 April 1990. (Foreign Broadcast Information Service 021329 April 1990). [/quote]

Drake, people always bluff when there is tough talk and even during a war. The fact seems to have been proven by the fact that Iraq did not use any of these Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Furthermore, some investigators said that they couldn't find these weapons. One of them (a British investigator) went as far as to say that the whole story was "sexed up". He was found dead soon after, apparently as a result of "suicide".

So far no one seems to have found these weapons. Up to a million people dead and more dying on all sides and the official reason for the war is still not proven.

[Drake]

Then you forgot the new report where they found some traces of sarin gas near some unused rockets? Made a few soldiers ill, but fortunately it was for the most part gone.

Read the CIA link provided. It will explain everything leading up to our assessment that Iraq had WMDs. And technically, they did. If you don't want to read it, then don't, but don't expect me to sit here all night and counter your armchair quarterback assessments if all you have are guesses and conspiracy theories.

I was an intelligence soldier at the time, and from what I saw from my angle, it looked pretty convincing. It's easy NOW to say they had no WMD program, but Saddam put up one hell of a good bluff. The irony of it is, the bluff was to keep us from invading. This included him upgrading and expanding suspected WMD sites.

[Hardwork108]

The difference is that we have no compulsory service. Everybody in the Army is there because they want to be. And they certainly know there's a good chance of going to war by enlisting.

I was under the impression that they were enlisting to protect their country if it was ever attacked and not to go and die so that the Corporate elite of the US can steal the raw materials of various countries.

I am not forgetting the huge profits that are made by the mainly US arms companies during any war. Of course, then there are the reconstruction which make huge profits for the mainly US construction companies. Then there are the US and European banks who will lend money for the reconstruction and they will now have Iraq's @ss for eternity.

Of course the dead soldiers are heroes and dying are dying for "freedom", "Democracy",etc.etc.

It is very sad that people don't see such ugly and sad aspects and keep themselves busy by discussing wether Obama is better than Bush, because it doesn't matter who is president as the masters never change!
EVERYONE WAKE UP!

[Drake]

I've been down there. Most of the reconstruction is being done by Iraqis. Reason is that we've found that if they have jobs, for some reason, the attacks go down. HMM.

We also employ companies from around the world. We have Tibetans, Indians, Lebanese, you name it. I recall one morning having a conversation with a Lebanese construction firm manager about how the mountains up north remind him of home. I even picked up a bit of the Indian language down there.

Again, you can benefit by questioning your own opinions about the war and for a second think that maybe this isn't an evil corporate plot to make money.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Drake
As for GWOT, we were attacked by forced based out of Afghanistan. The Taliban not only refused to turn over those guilty, but outright defied us. We were not only right to have attacked, but we would've been terribly wrong to do anything else. I'm not sure how much you know about these guys, but they are some pretty terrible human beings.

Your serious? You really think it was all about the Taliban "refusing to turn over the suspects" that we've committed ourselves to a conflict that seemingly has no end? Oh, how conveeenient, oil giants like BP and Unocal are now counting the billions of dollars in profits that wouldn't be there if it weren't for our invasion. Ya, that's what it was: G.I. Joe vs. Cobra. It was all over a few crusty militants up in the mountains.

Did anyone mention that Iraq has the second largest oil reserve in the world? How conveeeenient.

[Hardwork108]

I've been down there. Most of the reconstruction is being done by Iraqis. Reason is that we've found that if they have jobs, for some reason, the attacks go down. HMM.
We also employ companies from around the world. We have Tibetans, Indians, Lebanese, you name it. I recall one morning having a conversation with a Lebanese construction firm manager about how the mountains up north remind him of home. I even picked up a bit of the Indian language down there.

Again, when I was living in the Uk some politicians or journalists were complaining that all the best reconstruction contracts were going to the US companies (no matter who does the work on the ground level). Relatively few people complained about the unnecessary carnage that took and was taking place in the name of WMDs that did not exist.

Also, I would hazzard a guess that employing locals and others from neighboring countries would be cheaper.;)

We are after all talking about multinational companies.



Again, you can benefit by questioning your own opinions about the war and for a second think that maybe this isn't an evil corporate plot to make money.

I know that it was not to free Iraq nor about Weapons of Mass Destruction. And when I follow the who benefits formula I see that it was not the Iraqi people nor the US soldiers. If you follow that money trail, ie. who benefits trail then it all becomes easier to see.:)

[BoulderDawg]

Glad you're keeping Ward's name and message going. Us people who value freedom of speech really appreciate it!

By the way, as I mentioned, if you like you can click on his link and donate some money to Ward's legal fund.....I think Bad has already given $50!

[BoulderDawg]

I was an intelligence soldier at the time,

You know, those two words, especially for the people stupid enough to go ower there and fight Bush's war, just don't seem to go together!:D

[BoulderDawg]

Of course the dead soldiers are heroes and dying are dying for "freedom", "Democracy",etc.etc.

It is very sad that people don't see such ugly and sad aspects and keep themselves busy by discussing wether Obama is better than Bush, because it doesn't matter who is president as the masters never change!
EVERYONE WAKE UP!

Man they got those guys brainwashed......"If you don't go over there and kill a bunch of towel heads they will soon be over here raping you wives and daughters."

I've seen those who I thought were fairly smart people buy into that crap 100%.............I just shake my head in amazement.

[Drake]

Your serious? You really think it was all about the Taliban "refusing to turn over the suspects" that we've committed ourselves to a conflict that seemingly has no end? Oh, how conveeenient, oil giants like BP and Unocal are now counting the billions of dollars in profits that wouldn't be there if it weren't for our invasion. Ya, that's what it was: G.I. Joe vs. Cobra. It was all over a few crusty militants up in the mountains.

Did anyone mention that Iraq has the second largest oil reserve in the world? How conveeeenient.

Oil? Are you talking about Afghanistan?

If speaking of Iraq...then please read the Iraqi Constitution...

Article 109:
Oil and gas is the property of all the Iraqi people in all the regions and provinces.
Article 110:
1st: The federal government will administer oil and gas extracted from current fields in cooperation with the governments of the producing regions and provinces on condition that the revenues will be distributed fairly in a manner compatible with the demographical distribution all over the country. A quota should be defined for a specified time for affected regions that were deprived in an unfair way by the former regime or later on, in a way to ensure balanced development in different parts of the country. This should be regulated by law.
2nd: The federal government and the governments of the producing regions and provinces together will draw up the necessary strategic policies to develop oil and gas wealth to bring the greatest benefit for the Iraqi people, relying on the most modern techniques, market principles and encouraging investment.

So, are you suggesting we should've just let Al Qaeda walk off after 9-11?

[BoulderDawg]

So, are you suggesting we should've just let Al Qaeda walk off after 9-11?


If you think it's about keeping score I can assure you the ratio of dead Arabs to dead Americans is probably about a 100 to 1.

Anyway, let me ask you this, should the Arabs have just walked away from the atrocities done in Iran by the Shah?

[Drake]

Days like today I'm glad I have BD on ignore...

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Hardwork108
Again, when I was living in the Uk some politicians or journalists were complaining that all the best reconstruction contracts were going to the US companies (no matter who does the work on the ground level). Relatively few people complained about the unnecessary carnage that took and was taking place in the name of WMDs that did not exist.

Also, I believe **** Cheney still owned stock in Halliburton, a major recipient of many of those contracts. Cheney's Halliburton stock options rose 3281% in 2005. Isn't this supposed to be a crime? Politicians are not supposed to benefit financially from sending our armed forces to war. It's a conflict of interest. And Drake you want to fight for that evil putz. I can hear the Imperial March from Star Wars right now.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

And ya, Drake, I was talking about Afghanistan. What? You've never never heard of a little project called the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline. BP, Unocal, and a whole consortium of other companies are now seriously getting paid because of it. That would not be the case if we didn't feel the need to invade and occupy the country. Once again, how conveeenient.

And you're going to tell me the oil profits in Iraq have been going into the pockets of Iraqi's!?! Wake up and smell the gas fumes Drake.

[bawang]

in the end heaven will judge them in the 18th level of hell
they dint kil for vengeance or honor they kiled for money greed and plesure
the night sadm was hanged i saw him in a dream i asked him why did they kil you, he said they betrayed me

[Drake]

And ya, Drake, I was talking about Afghanistan. What? You've never never heard of a little project called the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline. BP, Unocal, and a whole consortium of other companies are now seriously getting paid because of it. That would not be the case if we didn't feel the need to invade and occupy the country. Once again, how conveeenient.

And you're going to tell me the oil profits in Iraq have been going into the pockets of Iraqi's!?! Wake up and smell the gas fumes Drake.

I don't believe it's a war for oil, and you really have to show some more compelling evidence aside from speculation.

[Drake]

And ya, Drake, I was talking about Afghanistan. What? You've never never heard of a little project called the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline. BP, Unocal, and a whole consortium of other companies are now seriously getting paid because of it. That would not be the case if we didn't feel the need to invade and occupy the country. Once again, how conveeenient.

And you're going to tell me the oil profits in Iraq have been going into the pockets of Iraqi's!?! Wake up and smell the gas fumes Drake.

Uh... there is no pipeline. You are thinking about this...

"The California energy company Unocal seriously pursued building an Afghanistan pipeline in the 1990s, but back then the theorists, such as this Middle East specialist in 1998, argued that the West was propping up the Taliban in hopes that they would cooperate on building a pipeline. On March 8, 2001, a think-tanker and former CIA analyst noted in a New York Times op-ed that "[i]n 1996, it seemed possible that American-built gas and oil pipelines from Central Asia could run through an Afghanistan ruled by one leader. Cruelty to women aside, we did not condemn the Taliban juggernaut rolling across the country.""

Or you may be thinking of the natural gas pipeline, which has some hellacious obstacles, given the Afghanistan terrain.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

It's supposed to be an oil and gas pipeline and it was meant to bypass Iran and Russia. Fine, it's not fully constructed yet, but it was supposed to be finished by now. Of course those pesky Taliban keep getting in the way.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/335023

Regardless, it's obvious what this is really about. Trying to put a missile defense shield in Eastern Europe is another indication that the military industrial complex needs enemies and competitors to survive. Countries like Russia and Iran are the obvious choices. The oil provides a greater economic incentive on top of this. Our leaders want to keep it out of Iran's and Russia's hands. The USA has been the aggressor in all of this the whole time. We'll see what Obama does, but, for some reason I don't think he has as much sway with all of the most powerful Conservative power brokers trying to set all of this up.

[Lokhopkuen]

I was under the impression that they were enlisting to protect their country if it was ever attacked and not to go and die so that the Corporate elite of the US can steal the raw materials of various countries.

I am not forgetting the huge profits that are made by the mainly US arms companies during any war. Of course, then there are the reconstruction which make huge profits for the mainly US construction companies. Then there are the US and European banks who will lend money for the reconstruction and they will now have Iraq's @ss for eternity.

Of course the dead soldiers are heroes and dying are dying for "freedom", "Democracy",etc.etc.

It is very sad that people don't see such ugly and sad aspects and keep themselves busy by discussing wether Obama is better than Bush, because it doesn't matter who is president as the masters never change!
EVERYONE WAKE UP!

Dude, Shhhhhh!
Don't tell!!

[Drake]

It's supposed to be an oil and gas pipeline and it was meant to bypass Iran and Russia. Fine, it's not fully constructed yet, but it was supposed to be finished by now. Of course those pesky Taliban keep getting in the way.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/335023

Regardless, it's obvious what this is really about. Trying to put a missile defense shield in Eastern Europe is another indication that the military industrial complex needs enemies and competitors to survive. Countries like Russia and Iran are the obvious choices. The oil provides a greater economic incentive on top of this. Our leaders want to keep it out of Iran's and Russia's hands. The USA has been the aggressor in all of this the whole time. We'll see what Obama does, but, for some reason I don't think he has as much sway with all of the most powerful Conservative power brokers trying to set all of this up.

Not fully constructed? It's not even started. I think they let that one go several years ago, pre-invasion.

[Drake]

And we're trying to avoid provoking Russia. Technically speaking, we should have attacked Russia when they went into Georgia, but of course we wouldn't. Currently, we're trying to restore relations with Russia.

Plus, we even invited Russia to go over the missile defense shield with us, so we could show it wasn't against them.

But yes, Iran is a point of interest.

[Lokhopkuen]

And we're trying to avoid provoking Russia. Technically speaking, we should have attacked Russia when they went into Georgia, but of course we wouldn't. Currently, we're trying to restore relations with Russia.

Plus, we even invited Russia to go over the missile defense shield with us, so we could show it wasn't against them.

But yes, Iran is a point of interest.

Guess you don't know about the US troops stationed in Russia or the Fact that there is an FBI field Office in Moscow. No KGB office in DC though...

[Drake]

Guess you don't know about the US troops stationed in Russia or the Fact that there is an FBI field Office in Moscow. No KGB office in DC though...

oooooo~~~kkkkkkk

[Lokhopkuen]

“Barack Obama never served.” "Barack Obama is a liar!"



For those who still can’t grasp the concept of white privilege, or who are constantly looking for some easy-to-understand examples of it, perhaps this list will help.

White privilege is when you can get pregnant at seventeen like Bristol Palin and everyone is quick to insist that your life and that of your family is a personal matter, and that no one has a right to judge you or your parents, because “every family has challenges,” even as black and Latino families with similar “challenges” are regularly typified as irresponsible, pathological and arbiters of social decay.

White privilege is when you can call yourself a “fu ckin’ redneck,” like Bristol Palin’s boyfriend does, and talk about how if anyone messes with you, you’ll “kick their fu ckin’ ass,” and talk about how you like to “shoot sh it” for fun, and still be viewed as a responsible, all-American boy (and a great son-in-law to be) rather than a thug.

White privilege is when you can attend four different colleges in six years like Sarah Palin did (one of which you basically failed out of, then returned to after making up some coursework at a community college), and no one questions your intelligence or commitment to achievement, whereas a person of color who did this would be viewed as unfit for college, and probably someone who only got in in the first place because of affirmative action.

White privilege is when you can claim that being mayor of a town smaller than most medium-sized colleges, and then Governor of a state with about the same number of people as the lower fifth of the island of Manhattan, makes you ready to potentially be president, and people don’t all pi ss on themselves with laughter, while being a black U.S. Senator, two-term state Senator, and constitutional law scholar, means you’re “untested.”

White privilege is being able to say that you support the words “under God” in the pledge of allegiance because “if it was good enough for the founding fathers, it’s good enough for me,” and not be immediately disqualified from holding office–since, after all, the pledge was written in the late 1800s and the “under God” part wasn’t added until the 1950s–while believing that reading accused criminals and terrorists their rights (because, ya know, the Constitution, which you used to teach at a prestigious law school requires it), is a dangerous and silly idea only supported by mushy liberals.

White privilege is being able to be a gun enthusiast and not make people immediately scared of you. White privilege is being able to have a husband who was a member of an extremist political party that wants your state to secede from the Union, and whose motto was “Alaska first,” and no one questions your patriotism or that of your family, while if you’re black and your spouse merely fails to come to a 9/11 memorial so she can be home with her kids on the first day of school, people immediately think she’s being disrespectful.

White privilege is being able to make fun of community organizers and the work they do–like, among other things, fight for the right of women to vote, or for civil rights, or the 8-hour workday, or an end to child labor–and people think you’re being pithy and tough, but if you merely question the experience of a small town mayor and 18-month governor with no foreign policy expertise beyond a class she took in college–you’re somehow being mean, or even sexist.

White privilege is being able to convince white women who don’t even agree with you on any substantive issue to vote for you and your running mate anyway, because all of a sudden your presence on the ticket has inspired confidence in these same white women, and made them give your party a “second look.”

White privilege is being able to fire people who didn’t support your political campaigns and not be accused of abusing your power or being a typical politician who engages in favoritism, while being black and merely knowing some folks from the old-line political machines in Chicago means you must be corrupt.

White privilege is being able to attend churches over the years whose pastors say that people who voted for John Kerry or merely criticize George W. Bush are going to hell, and that the U.S. is an explicitly Christian nation and the job of Christians is to bring Christian theological principles into government, and who bring in speakers who say the conflict in the Middle East is God’s punishment on Jews for rejecting Jesus, and everyone can still think you’re just a good church-going Christian, but if you’re black and friends with a black pastor who has noted (as have Colin Powell and the U.S. Department of Defense) that terrorist attacks are often the result of U.S. foreign policy and who talks about the history of racism and its effect on black people, you’re an extremist who probably hates America.

White privilege is not knowing what the Bush Doctrine is when asked by a reporter, and then people get angry at the reporter for asking you such a “trick question,” while being black and merely refusing to give one-word answers to the queries of Bill O’Reilly means you’re dodging the question, or trying to seem overly intellectual and nuanced.
White privilege is being able to claim your experience as a POW has anything at all to do with your fitness for president, while being black and experiencing racism is, as Sarah Palin has referred to it, a “light” burden.

And finally,
white privilege is the only thing that could possibly allow someone to become president when he has voted with George W. Bush 90 percent of the time, even as unemployment is skyrocketing, people are losing their homes, inflation is rising, and the U.S. is increasingly isolated from world opinion, just because white voters aren’t sure about that whole “change” thing. Ya know, it’s just too vague and ill-defined, unlike, say, four more years of the same, which is very concrete and certain.

White privilege is, in short, the problem.

Does Obama bring change?

After these Texas a s s holes killed, robbed, fu cked over, lied and if they had no other use for it just plain pi ssed on it just for laughs and left this COUNTRY a MESS for the new guy!!

Yea he brings change and it's about time;)


“Don't blame me, I voted for McCain” LOL!

Back to McCain I will say one really cool thing about him. When it was apparent that he’d lost the election and his people started booing, he asked them stop and encouraged all of his supporters to work together with the new administration to make this country a better place to live.
That showed some real character and I salute that.

[Lokhopkuen]

oooooo~~~kkkkkkk

And what this is s'possed to come off LIKE YOU KNOW SOMETHING?

[Drake]

And what this is s'possed to come off LIKE YOU KNOW SOMETHING?

nothin at all :D

[Lokhopkuen]

nothin at all :D

Just Checking LOL!;)

[BoulderDawg]

White privilege is when you can claim that being mayor of a town smaller than most medium-sized colleges, and then Governor of a state with about the same number of people as the lower fifth of the island of Manhattan, makes you ready to potentially be president, and people don’t all pi ss on themselves with laughter, while being a black U.S. Senator, two-term state Senator, and constitutional law scholar, means you’re “untested.”



You know of all the things in that campaign this was the one thing that I just couldn't believe they were trying to get the American public to swallow. Americans are pretty dam stupid (Afterall we elected Bush for two terms) but not quite that stupid.

The Sarah Palin thing is absolutely amazing. If the GOP is actually dumd enough to nominate her for president next time I will give money to her campaign.

[Lokhopkuen]

You know of all the things in that campaign this was the one thing that I just couldn't believe they were trying to get the American public to swallow. Americans are pretty dam stupid (Afterall we elected Bush for two terms) but not quite that stupid.

The Sarah Palin thing is absolutely amazing. If the GOP is actually dumd enough to nominate her for president next time I will give money to her campaign.

Actually we are not stupid, it's much more simple than that.

From a very early age we are taught to behave, follow, conform, obey.

Any child whom is different or has their own mind is "diagnosed" with A.D.D. or labeled a problem child.

Later in life we are encouraged to be politically correct when speaking and not to make waves or you will attract attention.

S.H.E.E.P.

I can't believe I let myself get drawn into this discussion as I detest politics.

It's like crack, I said i was just gonna "read it" but "not try it" now I'm doped out with the rest of you!

[1bad65]

Another liberal joins the discussion. And brings up racism right off the bat. :rolleyes:

[Drake]

Another liberal joins the discussion. And brings up racism right off the bat. :rolleyes:

Hey 1Bad...wasn't ADD a liberal concoction? ;)

Back in my days growing up during the Reagan era, we were just considered hyper, and they made us exercise off all that excess energy. Nowadays, they just give kids meds, because there MUST be something wrong with them besides not getting enough exercise or good parenting!

[1bad65]

Hey 1Bad...wasn't ADD a liberal concoction? ;)

Back in my days growing up during the Reagan era, we were just considered hyper, and they made us exercise off all that excess energy. Nowadays, they just give kids meds, because there MUST be something wrong with them besides not getting enough exercise or good parenting!

Yeah. ADD was the easy excuse. I never took any meds as a kid, and I had a ton of energy.

You just don't see kids being active anymore like we were. When 18 year-olds are sometimes dying of congestive heart failure, you know it's bad.

[Lokhopkuen]

Another liberal joins the discussion. And brings up racism right off the bat. :rolleyes:

No i brought up racism way back in this thread LOL! Actually I'm not a liberal I'm an apithetic conservative right wing fat boodie smacker:D If you see any Sistahs with badunkadunk send 'em my way:rolleyes:

[Luk Hop]

Let us all remember that racism only applies to whites.

"Typical white person" - Barack Obama.



Nice to see someone in college author such an editorial.

http://badgerherald.com/oped/2009/02/23/black_leaders_wont_l.php


Not since the outsized reaction to the infamous Danish Muhammad cartoons has such an innocuous cartoon elicited such an incommensurate response.

A week ago, you’d have a hard time convincing me that the story of Travis the Chimp would somehow be linked with President Obama. Travis, as you may have heard, was a chimpanzee who had starred in Coca-Cola and Old Navy commercials. Unfortunately, for Travis — and an innocent woman — Travis was also the star in a tragedy last week that ended in his seriously injuring his owner’s friend. The incident ended with police officers shooting Travis dead.

And now, Al Sharpton and his coterie of race-baiting pals are making a laughing stock out of themselves and the causes they represent by dragging Travis the chimpanzee and a president into this week’s Race Card Issue of the Week.

Travis’ story is a bizarre one. Eerie details are emerging of an almost romantic relationship between the chimp and the woman who owned him. Further, why not get a dog, versus an animal that, in the wild, eats the young and dismembers rivals? I know what you’re thinking. Travis sounds no worse than Mike Tyson. But no one has tried to make Tyson into a pet since Don King attempted it years ago.

But what is most surprising about Travis’ story — or legacy, if you will — is how it has somehow come to involve the always outspoken Al Sharpton, the NAACP, a fairly innocuous if untactful editorial cartoon, President Barack Obama, a not so reputable publication and the race card.

The New York Post, known more for its sensationalism and gossip columns than hard-hitting journalism, published the offending editorial cartoon which depicts two police officers standing over a now dead and bloodied Travis. One of the officers states: “They’ll have to find someone else to write the next stimulus bill.”

If you, like me, found such a sentiment — the stimulus bill, ill-advised as much of it seems, could have only been written by a monkey — to be hilarious, the NAACP would like me to tell you that you might be a racist.

That makes two of us.

Benjamin Todd Jealous, president and CEO of the NAACP, has called for a boycott of the New York Post as a result of what he and his organization consider “an invitation to assassination.” Not of other rampaging, murderous chimpanzees, mind you, but of our nation’s first black president.

Singer John Legend has called for his fellow musicians to refuse interviews with the Post. Al Sharpton has called the cartoon racially charged and troubling. According to reports from MSNBC, director Spike Lee and judge Greg Mathis have joined with other supposed black leaders in voicing their displeasure at the cartoon.

By now you’ve made the connection: Since the stimulus bill was one of the first major legislative accomplishments of our nation’s first black president, saying a monkey wrote it is evocative of our nation’s shameful racist past. Such is sound logic to the knee jerk, race card-waving groups desperate to keep their fading roles and organizations relevant. However, their protests are far removed from reality. It takes little more than a passing knowledge of politics and policy to know President Obama did not write the stimulus bill.

Is this what we must endure? Our first black president has hardly been in office a month, and we are already being subjected to race baiting of Sharptonian proportions?

The comparisons and lampoons of black people as monkeys is an egregious historical testimony to the institutionalized racism that in the past has plagued our nation. Yet this is not one of those comparisons. In fact, it wasn’t until Jealous and Sharpton — who are both black — decided to make the comparison between President Obama and Travis the chimp as depicted by the Post that such a comparison was even considered.

As Jealous and the NAACP contend, police officers and departments in the past often had violent and even murderous relationships with black communities. Every column I write on race also demands I state the following: Racism in America is by no means dead, nor do we live in a colorblind society.

But this is a clear obfuscation of the racial issues America still faces. Further, it lessens what little moral high ground our self-proclaimed black leaders have in the battles still remaining for the civil rights vanguard. It is reminiscent of the much aligned outrage thousands in Pakistan and Muslims evinced when Danish newspapers published a series of cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad.

It is revealing and pathetic, also, that it was black minds, and not white, that made the comparison between our first black president and a dead chimpanzee. Way to go, team.

Gerald Cox (gcox@badgerherald.com) is a senior majoring in economics.

[Baqualin]

You know, those two words, especially for the people stupid enough to go ower there and fight Bush's war, just don't seem to go together!:D

Well BD I Take this personal:mad:...I have a son in the 82nd Airborne, sitting on the wall protecting your idiot...douchebag a$$!!!! If Gene wants to ban me for saying this I will leave with a smile on my face....for your the biggest d!ck I've seen on this forum.
BQ

[Baqualin]

“Barack Obama never served.” "Barack Obama is a liar!"



For those who still can’t grasp the concept of white privilege, or who are constantly looking for some easy-to-understand examples of it, perhaps this list will help.

White privilege is when you can get pregnant at seventeen like Bristol Palin and everyone is quick to insist that your life and that of your family is a personal matter, and that no one has a right to judge you or your parents, because “every family has challenges,” even as black and Latino families with similar “challenges” are regularly typified as irresponsible, pathological and arbiters of social decay.

White privilege is when you can call yourself a “fu ckin’ redneck,” like Bristol Palin’s boyfriend does, and talk about how if anyone messes with you, you’ll “kick their fu ckin’ ass,” and talk about how you like to “shoot sh it” for fun, and still be viewed as a responsible, all-American boy (and a great son-in-law to be) rather than a thug.

White privilege is when you can attend four different colleges in six years like Sarah Palin did (one of which you basically failed out of, then returned to after making up some coursework at a community college), and no one questions your intelligence or commitment to achievement, whereas a person of color who did this would be viewed as unfit for college, and probably someone who only got in in the first place because of affirmative action.

White privilege is when you can claim that being mayor of a town smaller than most medium-sized colleges, and then Governor of a state with about the same number of people as the lower fifth of the island of Manhattan, makes you ready to potentially be president, and people don’t all pi ss on themselves with laughter, while being a black U.S. Senator, two-term state Senator, and constitutional law scholar, means you’re “untested.”

White privilege is being able to say that you support the words “under God” in the pledge of allegiance because “if it was good enough for the founding fathers, it’s good enough for me,” and not be immediately disqualified from holding office–since, after all, the pledge was written in the late 1800s and the “under God” part wasn’t added until the 1950s–while believing that reading accused criminals and terrorists their rights (because, ya know, the Constitution, which you used to teach at a prestigious law school requires it), is a dangerous and silly idea only supported by mushy liberals.

White privilege is being able to be a gun enthusiast and not make people immediately scared of you. White privilege is being able to have a husband who was a member of an extremist political party that wants your state to secede from the Union, and whose motto was “Alaska first,” and no one questions your patriotism or that of your family, while if you’re black and your spouse merely fails to come to a 9/11 memorial so she can be home with her kids on the first day of school, people immediately think she’s being disrespectful.

White privilege is being able to make fun of community organizers and the work they do–like, among other things, fight for the right of women to vote, or for civil rights, or the 8-hour workday, or an end to child labor–and people think you’re being pithy and tough, but if you merely question the experience of a small town mayor and 18-month governor with no foreign policy expertise beyond a class she took in college–you’re somehow being mean, or even sexist.

White privilege is being able to convince white women who don’t even agree with you on any substantive issue to vote for you and your running mate anyway, because all of a sudden your presence on the ticket has inspired confidence in these same white women, and made them give your party a “second look.”

White privilege is being able to fire people who didn’t support your political campaigns and not be accused of abusing your power or being a typical politician who engages in favoritism, while being black and merely knowing some folks from the old-line political machines in Chicago means you must be corrupt.

White privilege is being able to attend churches over the years whose pastors say that people who voted for John Kerry or merely criticize George W. Bush are going to hell, and that the U.S. is an explicitly Christian nation and the job of Christians is to bring Christian theological principles into government, and who bring in speakers who say the conflict in the Middle East is God’s punishment on Jews for rejecting Jesus, and everyone can still think you’re just a good church-going Christian, but if you’re black and friends with a black pastor who has noted (as have Colin Powell and the U.S. Department of Defense) that terrorist attacks are often the result of U.S. foreign policy and who talks about the history of racism and its effect on black people, you’re an extremist who probably hates America.

White privilege is not knowing what the Bush Doctrine is when asked by a reporter, and then people get angry at the reporter for asking you such a “trick question,” while being black and merely refusing to give one-word answers to the queries of Bill O’Reilly means you’re dodging the question, or trying to seem overly intellectual and nuanced.
White privilege is being able to claim your experience as a POW has anything at all to do with your fitness for president, while being black and experiencing racism is, as Sarah Palin has referred to it, a “light” burden.

And finally,
white privilege is the only thing that could possibly allow someone to become president when he has voted with George W. Bush 90 percent of the time, even as unemployment is skyrocketing, people are losing their homes, inflation is rising, and the U.S. is increasingly isolated from world opinion, just because white voters aren’t sure about that whole “change” thing. Ya know, it’s just too vague and ill-defined, unlike, say, four more years of the same, which is very concrete and certain.

White privilege is, in short, the problem.

Does Obama bring change?

After these Texas a s s holes killed, robbed, fu cked over, lied and if they had no other use for it just plain pi ssed on it just for laughs and left this COUNTRY a MESS for the new guy!!

Yea he brings change and it's about time;)


“Don't blame me, I voted for McCain” LOL!

Back to McCain I will say one really cool thing about him. When it was apparent that he’d lost the election and his people started booing, he asked them stop and encouraged all of his supporters to work together with the new administration to make this country a better place to live.
That showed some real character and I salute that.

Dude it sounds like you have a thing for Sara Palin:)
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

Yep, I'd say the above is probably a perfect example of the conservative philosophy of race relations and their feelings about the cartoon in the post.

The implication that the lady was F'ing her own Chimpanzee just added a little more empathy to the tragic story of a newspaper being picked on.

[AJM]

This thread is a big stinky pile of cr@p full of bigots and I'm not going to read anything else here. Disappointing and pathetic.

[1bad65]

Well BD I Take this personal:mad:...I have a son in the 82nd Airborne, sitting on the wall protecting your idiot...douchebag a$$!!!! If Gene wants to ban me for saying this I will leave with a smile on my face....for your the biggest d!ck I've seen on this forum.
BQ

Tell your son some of us appreciate him risking his life to protect our country and our freedoms.

[Drake]

Tell your son some of us appreciate him risking his life to protect our country and our freedoms.

Many do. Don't let one nutjob on an internet forum convince you otherwise.

[BoulderDawg]

.I have a son in the 82nd Airborne, sitting on the wall protecting your idiot...douchebag a$$!!!! BQ

Gee thanks! If it wasn't for some guy who has his ass parked up on a wall somewhere I would have died a long time ago!:D

[BoulderDawg]

Clear messages from the neo right:


Eerie details are emerging of an almost romantic relationship between the chimp and the woman who owned him.

Travis sounds no worse than Mike Tyson. But no one has tried to make Tyson into a pet since Don King attempted it years ago.

Since the stimulus bill was one of the first major legislative accomplishments of our nation’s first black president, saying a monkey wrote it is evocative of our nation’s shameful racist past. Such is sound logic to the knee jerk, race card-waving groups desperate to keep their fading roles and organizations relevant. However, their protests are far removed from reality.

But this is a clear obfuscation of the racial issues America still faces. Further, it lessens what little moral high ground our self-proclaimed black leaders have in the battles still remaining for the civil rights vanguard. It is reminiscent of the much aligned outrage thousands in Pakistan and Muslims evinced when Danish newspapers published a series of cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad.

It is revealing and pathetic, also, that it was black minds, and not white, that made the comparison between our first black president and a dead chimpanzee.

These are the words neos believe in.

How dare someone use their powers of free speech to complain about that cartoon....and while we're at it....how dare a group of people complain about cartoons making fun of their religious figures.

Finally let don't forget to really slam the lady who had the monkey. Let's don't talk about the fact that she shouldn't have had the monkey in the first place but rather accuse her of f'ing it!

[BoulderDawg]

I just saw a news report where a group of Hollywood actors (Led by Annette Benning) and other professionals visited Iran in a cultural exchange.

I wonder if they would have been allowed to visit during the Bush days.......I sincerely doubt it. It's nice to see us reaching out to Iran in an attempt to apologize and mend fences.

If artists controlled the world it would be a much better place!:D

[Luk Hop]

I just saw a news report where a group of Hollywood actors (Led by Annette Benning) and other professionals visited Iran in a cultural exchange.

I wonder if they would have been allowed to visit during the Bush days.......I sincerely doubt it. It's nice to see us reaching out to Iran in an attempt to apologize and mend fences.

If artists controlled the world it would be a much better place!:D

I posted the op/ed just as a counter balance. After all, Attorney General Holder said that:
"the United States was “a nation of cowards” on matters of race, with most Americans avoiding candid discussions of racial issues."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29260098/

I guess by me posting it, that makes me a "typical white person.":p

You are the one that keeps talking about the monkey. I am beginning to wonder.:eek:

Anyways:

Sean Penn in Iran: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/08/22/DDGJUEAF041.DTL

And just to let you know he did go to Iraq also: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2577981.stm

[Hardwork108]

.
Anyway, let me ask you this, should the Arabs have just walked away from the atrocities done in Iran by the Shah?

I personally know Iranians who were living in Iran during the reign of the Shah of Iran. They all say that his so calle atrocities were inflated in the West in a propaganda campaign that was followed by his overthrow by the CIA and the British MI5.

They had done the same 25 years earlier when the DEMOCRATICALLY elected president of Iran had "dared" nationalise Iran's own oil production.

There was no people's revolution in Iran. Shortly after the revolution many opponents of that revolution had been murdered in Europe. Some of the murderers were caught but were then released and repatriated in the interest of "good relations with the new government in Iran". It was all a Western intelligence operation but not for democracy.

Under the Shah Iran was becoming a military and economic power. The current US/UK policy regarding oil rich countries seems to be total control and/or economic and political destablisation. Most of the nasty stuff that was plastered all over the Western media at the time was nothing but propaganda. The Shah was not an angel but he was not the devil he was painted to be and I would say that he was a better man than any of the Bushes or Clinton.

There is a lot more about his downfall than many people think. He was overthrown by Anglo-American cooperation. Since and because of his downfall billions of dollars have been made. There is more to this than meets the eye.:)

[Drake]

I personally know Iranians who were living in Iran during the reign of the Shah of Iran. They all say that his so calle atrocities were inflated in the West in a propaganda campaign that was followed by his overthrow by the CIA and the British MI5.

They had done the same 25 years earlier when the DEMOCRATICALLY elected president of Iran had "dared" nationalise Iran's own oil production.

There was no people's revolution in Iran. Shortly after the revolution many opponents of that revolution had been murdered in Europe. Some of the murderers were caught but were then released and repatriated in the interest of "good relations with the new government in Iran". It was all a Western intelligence operation but not for democracy.

Under the Shah Iran was becoming a military and economic power. The current US/UK policy regarding oil rich countries seems to be total control and/or economic and political destablisation. Most of the nasty stuff that was plastered all over the Western media at the time was nothing but propaganda. The Shah was not an angel but he was not the devil he was painted to be and I would say that he was a better man than any of the Bushes or Clinton.

There is a lot more about his downfall than many people think. He was overthrown by Anglo-American cooperation. Since and because of his downfall billions of dollars have been made. There is more to this than meets the eye.:)

Source? .........

[BoulderDawg]

You are the one that keeps talking about the monkey. I am beginning to wonder.:eek:

The reason being is that I'm simply amazed his editor let that in. I'm assuming from his Email that he writes for the University of Wisconsin (or maybe some other school called the Badgers).

Either way, if I was that lady, I'd be suing the school for everything they have!:D

[BoulderDawg]

I personally know Iranians who were living in Iran during the reign of the Shah of Iran. They all say that his so calle atrocities were inflated in the West in a propaganda campaign that was followed by his overthrow by the CIA and the British MI5.

They had done the same 25 years earlier when the DEMOCRATICALLY elected president of Iran had "dared" nationalise Iran's own oil production.

There was no people's revolution in Iran. Shortly after the revolution many opponents of that revolution had been murdered in Europe. Some of the murderers were caught but were then released and repatriated in the interest of "good relations with the new government in Iran". It was all a Western intelligence operation but not for democracy.

Under the Shah Iran was becoming a military and economic power. The current US/UK policy regarding oil rich countries seems to be total control and/or economic and political destablisation. Most of the nasty stuff that was plastered all over the Western media at the time was nothing but propaganda. The Shah was not an angel but he was not the devil he was painted to be and I would say that he was a better man than any of the Bushes or Clinton.

There is a lot more about his downfall than many people think. He was overthrown by Anglo-American cooperation. Since and because of his downfall billions of dollars have been made. There is more to this than meets the eye.:)

That doesn't make a lick of sense. Why would the CIA overthrow an American puppet they had put in office in the first place and install a fundamentalist Islamic cleric.

[Luk Hop]

The reason being is that I'm simply amazed his editor let that in. I'm assuming from his Email that he writes for the University of Wisconsin (or maybe some other school called the Badgers).

Either way, if I was that lady, I'd be suing the school for everything they have!:D

That is why I made sure to include the e-mail address. That way all of you anti-neocons can give him hell.:D

[BoulderDawg]

This friend of mind sent me an Email about a group he belongs too on his Facebook page. It's called "Soldiers are not heros". I went there and it's F'ing GREAT!!!!!!

The best part is there is no censorship on the board so you get to read all the lovely comments from the fine upstanding Neos!:D

[Hardwork108]

Source? .........

Many Iranians that I know one of whom was a coronel in the Shah's secret service the SAWAK! He is a friend of my father's that is what he says as well.

The whole thing was planned and executed by the CIA and the British MI6, with assistance by other European country.

This link contains an interesting excerpt from the book "A Century of War" by William Engedahl, regarding the subject:

http://iransara.info/Iran%20what%20happened%20to%20Shah.htm

Please read it.

Here is Webster tarpley's, who is a historian, brief take on the overthrow of the Shah of Iran during President Carter's (a Democrat) era, while discussing the Middle East.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlAWXDwNoPs

[Hardwork108]

That doesn't make a lick of sense. Why would the CIA overthrow an American puppet they had put in office in the first place and install a fundamentalist Islamic cleric.

BoulderDawg,

Please see the links that I provided for Drake. Specially the first link which happens to contain a very informative read.:)

[Drake]

Many Iranians that I know one of whom was a coronel in the Shah's secret service the SAWAK! He is a friend of my father's that is what he says as well.

The whole thing was planned and executed by the CIA and the British MI6, with assistance by other European country.

This link contains an interesting excerpt from the book "A Century of War" by William Engedahl, regarding the subject:

http://iransara.info/Iran%20what%20happened%20to%20Shah.htm

Please read it.

Here is Webster tarpley's, who is a historian, brief take on the overthrow of the Shah of Iran during President Carter's (a Democrat) era, while discussing the Middle East.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlAWXDwNoPs

It's an interesting opinion, however, even if true, it doesn't support your more outrageous accusations.

[BoulderDawg]

Anything is possible I guess. However I just can't buy the theory that the CIA planned and excuted this.

I will go as far to say that maybe the US felt that the Shah had outlived his usefulness and when the talk of revolution started maybe the idea was kicked around that a revolution wouldn't be such a bad idea and maybe things weren't done to prevent it.

However had the US have led it they would have picked a successor other then Khomeini.

[Hardwork108]

Man they got those guys brainwashed......"If you don't go over there and kill a bunch of towel heads they will soon be over here raping you wives and daughters."

I've seen those who I thought were fairly smart people buy into that crap 100%.............I just shake my head in amazement.

It is a human weakness. People are intelligent and stupid at different levels. For example, you have guys who start with nothing and have the intelligence and the tenacity to build million dollar fortunes after which they turn around and marry some 19 year old bimbo, half their age, who will in a few years own half of their fortune when the inevitable divorce knocks on their door. Some of these guys will even follow that up by marrying another bimbo who will do the same to them within a few years.

Here is a quote from Josef Goebbel who was Hitler's minister of propaganda:

"Propaganda must label events and people with distinctive phrases or slogans. "

Think about this in today's terms: "The War on Terrorism" ; "Fight for Freedom and Democracy"; "The Weapons of Mass Destruction" 9-11 and so on.

Here is a quote from another famous Nazi:

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” -- Hermann Goering

[My emphasis.]

RINGS A BELL doesn't it?:eek:

[Drake]

This one is more fresh in my mind..dunno about you...

"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it"

Osama Bin Laden

[Drake]

Here's another good one...

“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.”

[Hardwork108]

Anything is possible I guess. However I just can't buy the theory that the CIA planned and excuted this.

Not just the CIA but the British MI5. Iran, under the Shah was on its way to becoming a major economy. It was feared that the Shah would not negotiate the oil concessions in favorable (to the West) manner. Because of the revolution the nation of Iran "jumped back" a few centuries.

When you realise that our leaders are selected by people we don't see and not elected by us and that one of the main requirements is for them to have psychopathic character traits, then all this makes sense.

The leaders do not care about loss of innocent lives nor the displacement of thousands of innocent people or the resultant trauma. They do what they are told by interests that have nothing to do with the interests of the masses.


I will go as far to say that maybe the US felt that the Shah had outlived his usefulness and when the talk of revolution started maybe the idea was kicked around that a revolution wouldn't be such a bad idea and maybe things weren't done to prevent it.

It is a myth or a better description would be a cover story, that the Western intelligence agencies were somehow caught off guard. The CIA had a very strong presence in Iran because of its oil; its proximity with the then USSR and the close so called "friedship" that the US enjoyed with the then government.


However had the US have led it they would have picked a successor other then Khomeini.

The Ayatollas did just fine. Iran was immediately weakened by their slaughter of the military brass (some of whom even managed to escape) and was ready to be attacke by then US friend Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Because of this war the price of oil collapsed helping the Western economies. Furthermore the US and the UK sold arms clandestinely to both sides while hypocritically having had placed an "arms embargo".

It did not matter that by the time this war had stopped around a million of Iraqis and Iranians had died. To these psychopaths these things don't matter.

We all need to realize what kind of animals are our supposed leaders. Once we do then all this madness, that continues until today, will stop!

[Lokhopkuen]

Dude it sounds like you have a thing for Sara Palin:)
BQ

Any gurl who shoots a moose is my kind of gurl!!

[Lokhopkuen]

Another liberal joins the discussion. And brings up racism right off the bat. :rolleyes:

Race is an issue.

The same man who is now President even as recently as 1969 in some states would not be allowed to use the same rest room as a white man.....:eek:

¿Got Progress?

[Hardwork108]

This one is more fresh in my mind..dunno about you...

"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it"

Osama Bin Laden

Well considering that Osama was CIA trained then that would all make sense.

Seriously though, I take any "news" or "facts" about Bin Laden with a pinch of salt.

During my time in the Uk every few months one would see some Middle Eastern man's face, complete with the beard, displayed on the news and we would be told that he was Bin Laden's right hand man. That man Osama must have at least a dozen right hands and hence should have been easier to find...lol,lol.

And then there was a Bin Laden video. I don't know about you guys that did not look like Osama to me.

My conclusion? It is all a nasty game for long term political agendas. I would even guess that Osama was "taken out" a long time ago.

Watch all of this link which shows an interview with Benazire Bhuto (who herself was later assassinated) and listen to the American presenter who comments on it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLItJMVNleY

What she said which was an explosive statement yet the interviewer or "journalist" did not react at all.

Incidentally it was the same "journalist", DAVID FROST, who had interviewed the Shah of Iran decades earlier doing his best to "expose" his human rights violations...lol,lol.

TALK ABOUT INTELLIGENCE ASSETS!

So we need not to only distrust the "integritty" of our political leaders but our so called "respected journalists".

As I said before we need to all WAKE UP!!!

[Drake]

Osama can barely fire an AK-47 without hurting himself. Please, oh please, show me some credible evidence that Osama Bin Laden was CIA trained.

[Lokhopkuen]

Osama can barely fire an AK-47 without hurting himself. Please, oh please, show me some credible evidence that Osama Bin Laden was CIA trained.

We wasn't trained by them he was invented by them.
There is no such person.:rolleyes:

[Drake]

I'm glad to see all the "professionals" here have this figured out. With you guys going to the middle east to investigate it, or going through records instead of just browing the internet, I am certain you are on the right track! Why, I'm sure you've already interviewed countless witnesses and done a critical assessment of the situation, and wouldn't DARE just fly off the handle and make assumptions that the gubment is out to getcha.

I can sleep peacefully at night knowing that with these experts on the job, their profound influence will certainly change the face of the world. :cool:

[uki]

Osama can barely fire an AK-47 without hurting himself. Please, oh please, show me some credible evidence that Osama Bin Laden was CIA trained.regardless of who osama was trained by or if he exists... how would you know if he can or cannot fire an AK-47? hang out with him much? train with him? just what is your source of credible information to make this assumption?

[Drake]

I've seen the video. :D

[uki]

I've seen the video.hmmm... well so far not even the most sophisticated of the worlds armies can even get close enough to him to take a pock shot, so does it really matter how well you claim he can shoot a gun... obviously he doesn't have much to worry about. :)

and who took the footage of that video? if an intelligence agent, why did they not take him out then? who delivered this video? oh wait... let me guess... it's top secret classified information that would be a vital threat to our national security if revealed... :rolleyes:

[Drake]

hmmm... well so far not even the most sophisticated of the worlds armies can even get close enough to him to take a pock shot, so does it really matter how well you claim he can shoot a gun... obviously he doesn't have much to worry about. :)

and who took the footage of that video? if an intelligence agent, why did they not take him out then? who delivered this video? oh wait... let me guess... it's top secret classified information that would be a vital threat to our national security if revealed... :rolleyes:

No... it was on the news a while back. Sorry you missed it.

[uki]

more interesting headlines from around the world... the change is in the air!!!

the latest take on the war against afghanistan and the taliban... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/US-not-winning-war-in-Afghanistan-Obama-/articleshow/4242149.cms

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090307/obama_taliban_090307/20090307?hub=TopStories

oops... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1069303.html

i guess this is easy for them to say to us... http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\03\09\story_9-3-2009_pg7_3

trouble in the house? http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/US/Nation-of-cowards-Obama-rebukes-attorney-general/articleshow/4242676.cms

trouble with the economy *snicker* http://www.cnbc.com/id/29592831

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/08/AR2009030801216.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a72q7hFPu5Cs&refer=us

and some more news that the american people should be seeing in the news instead of the normal donkey-doo...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&refer=india&sid=aZ1kcJ7y3LDM

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-03/09/content_10972181.htm

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-03/09/content_10975673.htm

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-G20/idUSTRE5244BM20090305

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29433282/

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20090225/120298367.html

yes folks... change is truly on the way. :D

[Drake]

I always look at state-controlled media for my information! :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

This friend of mind sent me an Email about a group he belongs too on his Facebook page. It's called "Soldiers are not heros". I went there and it's F'ing GREAT!!!!!!

Calling you a piece of garbage is an insult to garbage everywhere.

[Drake]

Calling you a piece of garbage is an insult to garbage everywhere.

I think BD is a contrarian. He goes against this stuff for the attention and the rise. People will pay attention to him if he does something stupid like insult soldiers. It's a way of getting attention.

[1bad65]

People will pay attention to him if he does something stupid like insult soldiers. It's a way of getting attention.

And you know he doesn't have the balls to say it to their faces.

[uki]

I always look at state-controlled media for my information!yes, because you can always trust the state... :rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

And you know he doesn't have the balls to say it to their faces.

I would love for Mr. neolib to say it to my sons face.:cool:
BQ

At least Simon, David and others show a lot of intelligence and bring up good points in their post.

[uki]

No... it was on the news a while back. Sorry you missed it.whoa then... so it must be true, it was on the news... :rolleyes:

i have chosen to remain without cable, satellite, or commercial television for nearly 15 years... the obvious reasons being that i like to think for my self and make up my own mind. :)