is this facts? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

SimonM

07-06-2011, 06:46 AM

how many here knows how to generate power the Yiquan or ancient TCMA internal way?

"Someone" here.

Just a couple of points:

1) Yiquan is less than a century old, hardly ancient.
2) Ancient =/= better.

Furthermore this is just a rehash of the locked dead-horse down the list a ways. We aren't going to get beyond my statement:

Yiquan provides no evidence of combat efficacy, or even whole-body integration in technique. This is unsurprising since Yiquan's primary form of training is standing around doing nothing.

And your counter-statement:

You don't have the real Xingyi because you don't think standing stake has use.

And frankly I'm not interested in either fossils of a centuries old mysticism in fight training nor am I interested in what a sorry hack like Wang Xiangzhai had to say about martial arts because I remain highly dubious of his skill due to his rejection of everything worthwhile about his parent art.

I suspect that part of the problem is that although Guo Yunshen appears to have been a good fighter he doesn't appear to have been a good teacher. He seems to have deliberately contrived to avoid teaching any fighting for as long as possible.

This is an error.

Frankly, considering Guo's reputation for skill at Beng Quan it is clear he understood the value of fight fundamentals. His failure to transmit this value to his most famous students makes me rather sad.

Cue frothing rage that I took a stab at your great-great-great-great-grandmaster now.

Water-quan

07-06-2011, 06:46 AM

SPJ,

yup, as the Xing Yi saying,

training to strike without training standing stake, similar to eating without knowing to storing the food. training three PI chuan strike is not as good as a standing stake.

Standing stake is the root of Xing Yi for those who is a real Xing Yi follower.

as for the Yiquan power generation or the ancient/internal type of Chinese power generation, anyone after goes that way will never return to the general/external way of how people deliver strike. the technology is just heaven and earth different.

So, Xing Yi or Yiquan there is no different in the root----- standing stake/post to train the Nei San He, Wai San he. then the Yiguan get one more steps to train the six directional force, Hun Yuan Li....

White Crane of Fujian also have these stuffs which is much superior then just hitting as everyone knows. As it is said, training the strike not training the kung, at old age one got nothing. most doesnt know the Kung part and thinking doing some application, some hitting, some sparing.. is everything. and using that part trying to disapprove the Kung part which is a totally screw up due to one has no basic on the art.

Can you video yourself hitting a punch bag the 'yiquan' way please? Oh - and put it up. I think all of this would be a lot clearer with a physical demo.

Water-quan

07-06-2011, 06:50 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa2MwT8QZGQ ? This seems to be similar 'light contact' that makes real people fly away, but on a bag strangely looks like it wouldn't shoo away a fly!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suc2cwD6eyw

Why the bag no fly away?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssPNULj79Ag&feature=related

SimonM

07-06-2011, 07:53 AM

You didn't see all the internal organ damage those bags suffered. :rolleyes:

Look, what bothers me about this whole thing is the disingenuousness of the situation.

I get threads started complaining that I said "prove this technique has merit."

There is a long tradition in China of testing, of changing, of evolving. Hell, I guess I won't get through to you unless I bring out the ancient mysticism. Well fine.

Gan Bao, Anecdotes about Spirits and Immortals Published circa 330 AD (how's that for ancient?)

Vol. 12, Ch. 300 "One should act in accordance with the changes" the thesis of this chapter is that all things change over time. It couches this thesis in claims of 1000 year old birds transforming into oysters and men becoming tigers.

Nice and mystical.

And this ancient and fundamental scholar says "stuff changes."

So how does clinging to an outmoded fight methodology help you? You are not acting in accordance with the changes.

Scott R. Brown

07-06-2011, 08:32 AM

Hendrik used to have a vid posted of him standing, in his kitchen I think!

He is the typical 95# weakling trying to instruct everyone else on how to fight!

SPJ

07-06-2011, 08:38 AM

pi beng zuan pao heng

exist in all styles

the interesting part is that they all start and end with san ti shi.

remember shoulder dropped and elbow down and close to ribside.

the 5 elements are interchangeable and all via san ti shi.

---

do not like qi quan punching bag videos posted

elbow not down, shoulder not dropped

shoulder kao is the whole body movement and not just lean forward your shoulder

shoulder and hip in harmony or move together as a unit

--

---

mind boxing or not.

--

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 09:31 AM

In my humble opinion, dont mean to put down.

all speculation without doing any homework.
that is the common issue when one is keep thinking with one's mind set without real practicing what it is.

"Someone" here.

Just a couple of points:

1) Yiquan is less than a century old, hardly ancient.
2) Ancient =/= better.

Furthermore this is just a rehash of the locked dead-horse down the list a ways. We aren't going to get beyond my statement:

Yiquan provides no evidence of combat efficacy, or even whole-body integration in technique. This is unsurprising since Yiquan's primary form of training is standing around doing nothing.

And your counter-statement:

You don't have the real Xingyi because you don't think standing stake has use.

And frankly I'm not interested in either fossils of a centuries old mysticism in fight training nor am I interested in what a sorry hack like Wang Xiangzhai had to say about martial arts because I remain highly dubious of his skill due to his rejection of everything worthwhile about his parent art.

I suspect that part of the problem is that although Guo Yunshen appears to have been a good fighter he doesn't appear to have been a good teacher. He seems to have deliberately contrived to avoid teaching any fighting for as long as possible.

This is an error.

Frankly, considering Guo's reputation for skill at Beng Quan it is clear he understood the value of fight fundamentals. His failure to transmit this value to his most famous students makes me rather sad.

Cue frothing rage that I took a stab at your great-great-great-great-grandmaster now.

SimonM

07-06-2011, 09:54 AM

So-called humble opinions rarely are.

As for the level of home-work you believe I completed to form my opinion, I honestly don't give a fiddle.

All you've done, in two threads, is claim "special" knowledge which you claim I don't posses. Well, put up or shut up. Demonstrate in some manner how the un-coordinated flailing that Yiquan players show has the strong body integration you CLAIM standing stake produces.

Produce ONE VID of ANY Yiquan player sparring against an equal opponent (IE: Not an instructor doing a seminar demo on one of his students) and using viable technique.

I'm not asking for proof of INTERNAL POWER!!! tm

I just want to see viable technique.

What I see:

Standing stake meditation.
Forms that involve wildly flailing the arms with no associated movement past the shoulders - in other words a lack of the whole-body integration one would expect from an "internal" fighting style.
A guard that places both elbows consistently level with the defender's chin, leaving the lower body effectively undefended.
Elbows stuck WAY out, which any grappler or sword player will tell you is just about the WORST thing to do defensively.
Pushing and shoving disguised as throwing (it is not).
Cheap, easy to replicate, tricks performed on compliant students used as demonstration of internal power.
Protestations that anybody who disagrees "just doesn't know." Which, I'm sorry, don't cut it this time.
Ancient = better Orientalism.

You aren't dealing with MMA nut-riders here. The people you are debating are interested in CMA, in Chinese culture, philosophy and religion. If you look at my book shelf you'll find the Dedaojing, the Analects, the Zhuangzi, the Sunzi, several ch'an texs from China and Vietnam, a copy of the Qran (but, of course, the Islamic influence on Chinese thought isn't likely something you will want to admit to), the Anecdotes About Spirits and Immortals, Sanguo Yanyi, etc.

I am not ignorant of the Asian mystical tradition or it's religious and philosophical origins boyo, regardless of what you want to think.

I'm also a rational sceptic and prefer to be shown some sort of proof of efficacy. Any proof. I'm not being particularly picky. But I haven't gotten proof from you, just attitude and dispersions about my level of erudition. And that got my back up.

So, you know what, put up or shut up.

I am not asking for a vid of YOU. I'm not asking for YOU to cart your ass over to Toronto to show me in person. I'm asking for some sort of demonstration that you have the first clue what fighting, power generation, spatial sensitivity or the history of CMA are about.

So far you have failed. Honestly, at this point, I don't expect anything more from you. I expect you to continue just protesting that I don't know my sh!t.

Well, you started a thread b!tching about me after the old one got locked. So now you have my attention. Can you do any better than vague rips on my education? Do you have anything? Or do you just want to cry that I was mean to you on the interwebz?

YiQuanOne

07-06-2011, 10:19 AM

I don't think you can explain anything to these guys.

They need to go out and experence some one throwing them around using no effort, then you can talk to them.

If you guys never experence it, it is hard to believe it excists.

I think this internal core is the heart of all orginal MA's, but has been lost over the
years by people passing on incomplete systems, unless the poor incomplete MA systems of dance are exposed, MA is heading out the door and becoming an old
ritual dance that has lost its value.

Just to become a shadow of its past.

There probably have been people that visit this forum from time to time to express the internal value and meet up with you meat heads all whining that they are high, show me the video,...so they just laugh and think OK fine, your loss.
Is there anybody out their that has stayed around on this forum and has developed an internal core from standing ?, and not by hitting a sand bag or bean bag or rock or hitting anything.

SimonM

07-06-2011, 10:23 AM

Again, Yiquan in a nutshell:

Standing stake meditation.
Forms that involve wildly flailing the arms with no associated movement past the shoulders - in other words a lack of the whole-body integration one would expect from an "internal" fighting style.
A guard that places both elbows consistently level with the defender's chin, leaving the lower body effectively undefended.
Elbows stuck WAY out, which any grappler or sword player will tell you is just about the WORST thing to do defensively.
Pushing and shoving disguised as throwing (it is not).
Cheap, easy to replicate, tricks performed on compliant students used as demonstration of internal power.
Protestations that anybody who disagrees "just doesn't know." Which, I'm sorry, don't cut it this time.
Ancient = better Orientalism.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 10:27 AM

So-called humble opinions rarely are.

As for the level of home-work you believe I completed to form my opinion, I honestly don't give a fiddle.

Humble because there are many who has the Kung fu such as SPJ and I dont know it all.

reading you post, you sure can do all the good talk and great reasoning.
you also seem to love to reason and speculate whatever you like , be it you know or you dont.

however, you dont have the Kung fu in this case on Xing Yi and Yiquan, so what to discuss?

So, since this is a Kungfu Forum, you know where you stand.

SimonM

07-06-2011, 10:29 AM

Right, I don't have the kung fu because you say so.
:rolleyes:

You got nothing.
You have no response to my questions. You have no response to my critique. STFU.

Scott R. Brown

07-06-2011, 10:30 AM

I don't think you can explain anything to these guys.

They need to go out and experence some one throwing them around using no effort, then you can talk to them.

If you guys never experence it, it is hard to believe it excists.

Why do you presume we haven't? I have been thrown around, long enough to figure out the biomechanics and to make it so I cannot be thrown around any longer, unless I allow it!

Therefore I MUST have Anti-Qi!:D:p;)

Kind of like Anti-Matter, ONLY BETTER!:cool:

SimonM

07-06-2011, 10:34 AM

why do you presume we haven't? I have been thrown around, long enough to figure out the biomechanics and to make it so I cannot be thrown around any longer, unless I allow it!

Well because we haven't spent 10 years standing perfectly still BEFORE we started getting thrown around. Therefore we don't have The Real Kung Futm.

Funny thing is that my critique of Yiquan was largely based around the premise that what is SEEN violates the principles of "internal" martial art, unless "internal" is taken to mean "magical."

Same with your statements.

Neither Yiquianone nor Hendrick are willing to address this critique.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 10:51 AM

The people you are debating are interested in CMA, in Chinese culture, philosophy and religion.

If you look at my book shelf you'll find the Dedaojing, the Analects, the Zhuangzi, the Sunzi, several ch'an texs from China and Vietnam, a copy of the Qran (but, of course, the Islamic influence on Chinese thought isn't likely something you will want to admit to), the Anecdotes About Spirits and Immortals, Sanguo Yanyi, etc.

I am not ignorant of the Asian mystical tradition or it's religious and philosophical origins boyo, regardless of what you want to think.

I'm also a rational sceptic and prefer to be shown some sort of proof of efficacy.

Any proof. I'm not being particularly picky. But I haven't gotten proof from you, just attitude and dispersions about my level of erudition. And that got my back up.

So, you know what, put up or shut up.

Books reading understanding, no matter how many books you read, those are just one's speculation according to one's mind set. it is said 死读书 dead reading. The most of this type of people are just books worm which is no can do. one can read tons and tons of these type of people in the Chinese history.

you know, your issue is you dont have any 正传 or proper transmission. in Kung Fu, no proper transmission, no cultivation means not even entering the door, not entering the door means no kung fu.

speaking of Chan, you read the books,
You think Shen Hui of Shao Lin is so stupid to stand in the snow and chop off his own arm just to beg Damo for Zen's proper transmission or 正传? he can just read a few books and sutras while he does what he does?

think twice.

from your posts, you obviously have never studied under the real sifu who has the proper transmission who passing the transmission to you.

On another hand, you want to talk about Yiquan's strenght and weakness? just reasoning like you do is not good enough because those are just empty talk.

the real deal is could you using modern physics to identify how many different type of momenentum generation mechanics exist in Yiquan's standing stake while practice the hun yun lik?
How many is Xing Yi's San Ti Shi? how many in a boxer's punch? how many in an mmA's take down.....etc?

you want go real, tell me how many of them?

if one cant even identify these momentum generation mechancis, that means one is doing blind practice. as in any engineering blind practice with no parameters control cannot have good repeatability, not to mention without knowing these doesnt know the boundary. and without boundary condition one just flying blind.

Flying blind is no kung fu. kung fu is precise and concise and evoke at will.

your rational mind doesnt worth much in the eyes or real kung fu practioner with proper transmission in Xing Yi and Yi quan.

Kung fu is not a philosophy not a culture but some thing real which could stand the details analysis in a physics lab and evoke at will when needed.

So, Chinese Kung Fu? you havent seen yet. In my humble opinion, humble because there are lots of croching tiger and hidden drangon in this world and I dont know it all.

Scott R. Brown

07-06-2011, 10:55 AM

Books reading understanding, no matter how many books you read, those are just one's speculation according to one's mind set. it is said 死读书 dead reading. The most of this type of people are just books worm which is no can do. one can read tons and tons of these type of people in the Chinese history. they have big ego and big pride but no can do......

While you speculate about what you THINK other people know first hand or not! If it doesn't agree with you, if it doesn't come from some nutcase Master you approve of, it MUST be book learning, because only the magnanimous, AND humble, Hendrik KNOWS what is best and true!:rolleyes:

SimonM

07-06-2011, 10:57 AM

from your posts, you obviously have never studied under the real sifu who has the proper transmission who passing the transmission to you.

I've had it up to here with your "humble opinions" b!tch.

You want to know about my Sifu? Read the September / October 2010 issue of KFM. He's profiled there. You are an ignorant, deluded, little LARPER and I'm done with you.

tiaji1983

07-06-2011, 10:59 AM

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:02 AM

I've had it up to here with your "humble opinions" b!tch.

You want to know about my Sifu? Read the September / October issue of KFM. He's profiled there. You are an ignorant, deluded, little LARPER and I'm done with you.

You cant even take reality check.

name dropping got nothing to do with 正传 or proper transmission. famous people also got nothing to do with 正传 or proper transmission.

SimonM

07-06-2011, 11:03 AM

Scott R. Brown

07-06-2011, 11:03 AM

your rational mind doesnt worth much in the eyes or real kung fu practioner with proper transmission in Xing Yi and Yi quan.

Kung fu is not a philosophy not a culture but some thing real which could stand the details analysis in a physics lab and evoke at will when needed.

So, Chinese Kung Fu? you havent seen yet. In my humble opinion, humble because there are lots of croching tiger and hidden drangon in this world and I dont know it all.

If Xing Yi and Yi quan can stand the details of analysis in a physics lab then they ARE rationally based and the rational mind IS WORTH MUCH to a REAL KUNG FU PRACTITIONER!!

You don't actually think before you post something do you?:rolleyes:

Water-quan

07-06-2011, 11:05 AM

Well this all went well for yiquan.

SimonM

07-06-2011, 11:07 AM

You don't actually think before you post something do you?:rolleyes:

No, he doesn't. :mad:

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:08 AM

tiaji1983

07-06-2011, 11:13 AM

the real deal is could you using modern physics to identify how many different type of momenentum generation mechanics exist in Yiquan's standing stake while practice the hun yun lik?
How many is Xing Yi's San Ti Shi? how many in a boxer's punch? how many in an mmA's take down.....etc?

The whole argument would be null in void, and you would be the winner if you would just explain how modern physics explains the many different types of momentum generated during standing on stake. Why havent you?

Simon M, then why didnt someone just post ^ that earlier and end the discussion instead of feeding the arguments? I say let it go. If hes not willing to explain it, one of 3 things is going on.

1. He doesnt know or it doesnt exist. But it does in some ways but not how I understand its being explained.

2. Hes afraid to give the "secret," because hes afraid someone will use it to thier advantage and beat him. In which case is dumb, because if his style is truly internal, he would have an advantage over anyone who starts learning it because hes been practicing harder and longer with a skilled teacher.

3. Or he just doesnt want to share or teach, hes just here to tell people they could never understand it, and go find a teacher and leave it at that. In which case, even if his chung fa is superb, hes no good to anyone here, because no one is learning anything and is just getting frustrated about being belittled.

tiaji1983

07-06-2011, 11:14 AM

I dont think its the 3rd option because he already taught me something

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 11:25 AM

I Liq Chuan Master Sam F.S. Chin once said, "Most internal guys had spent all their life to train power generation, but thier power deliever system suck big time." I strongly agree with his statement. That's the problem for this so called "internal" CMA system.

I'll be much more interested to discuss "how to delieve a punch on your opponent's face" than just the theory about power generation. You had leaned power generation when you were young,. If you haven't kill any lion with your fist yet, your power generation suck. Just move on and get into something more advanced.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:28 AM

Tiaji1983 if tweedledeluded and tweedlemouthboxer were willing to discuss the underlying physics this wouldn't be such an issue. I've asked repeatedly for them to explain the Yiquan tendency to move the arms without turning at the back or hips, to explain how this is in keeping with "internal" power generation principles, or ANY power generation principles in fact, and the response has been insults to me and then to insult my Sifu. I do not take such insults lightly.

They aren't interested in any real discussion. They just don't want their fantasies interfered with and, with heaps of internet courage the brave mouthboxer Hendrick is perfectly willing to insult anybody who challenges his fantasies of real ultimate power!!!

I expect, those who have big name and thinking they know it all when doing a critics on Yiquan, clearly spell it out,

such as

there are 4 basic power/momentum generation mechanics. what Yiquan have and what Xing Yi lack or what Yiquan lack and what Xing Yi has.

due to Yiquan's power generation, how is the acceration, how is the momentum trajectory, how could it be intercept or not intercept......etc.

not some kind of speculation, some name droping, some philosophy which got nothing to do with the topic.

it is all about do one knows the subject in details. it is technical technical technical. if you know that details you can evoke it and repeat it, if not then you dont have the kung fu.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:34 AM

I Liq Chuan Master Sam F.S. Chin once said, "Most internal guys had spent all their life to train power generation, but thier power deliever system suck big time." I strongly agree with his statement. That's the problem for this so called "internal" CMA system.

I'll be much more interested to discuss "how to delieve a punch on your opponent's face" than just the theory about power generation. You had leaned power generation when you were young,. If you haven't kill a lion with your fist, your power generation suck. Just move on and get into something more iadvanced.

Since I Liq Chuan is also internal and a partial Yiquan type. So which class of internal guy he belongs to? and which class you belongs to?

Water-quan

07-06-2011, 11:36 AM

I Liq Chuan Master Sam F.S. Chin

is another total fraud.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:37 AM

I dont think its the 3rd option because he already taught me something

I told you there are 4 basic momentum mechanics type. the rest is not my issues, you need to find a sifu who has the 正传 or proper transmission to coach you to cultivate kung fu.

there is no way one could learn kung fu in forum chatting. information is useless if one has no sifu to coach one properly.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 11:37 AM

Since I Liq Chuan is also internal and a partial Yiquan type. So which class of internal guy he belongs to? and which class you belongs to?

I don't konw how to answer your question and I can't answer for Sam either. As I had said, I only care about whether my punch can knock my opponent down or not.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:38 AM

is another total fraud.

Beside bad mouthing, you have never contribute to a details in kung fu.

Water-quan

07-06-2011, 11:38 AM

I expect, those who have big name and thinking they know it all when doing a critics on Yiquan, clearly spell it out,

such as

there are 4 basic power/momentum generation mechanics. what Yiquan have and what Xing Yi lack or what Yiquan lack and what Xing Yi has.

due to Yiquan's power generation, how is the acceration, how is the momentum trajectory, how could it be intercept or not intercept......etc.

not some kind of speculation, some name droping, some philosophy which got nothing to do with the topic.

it is all about do one knows the subject in details. it is technical technical technical. if you know that details you can evoke it and repeat it, if not then you dont have the kung fu.

What you're saying is, unless someone knows the full logic, method, ideology and system of yiquan, then they have no right to mention that yiquan guys can't even hit a punch bag with power.

Ok. Awesome.

tiaji1983

07-06-2011, 11:39 AM

Water-quan

07-06-2011, 11:39 AM

Beside bad mouthing, you have never contribute to a details in kung fu.

Wasn't it Wang Xiang Zhai who said that the best thing we can do for kung fu is point out all the frauds?

My my, talk about not knowing your yiquan theory.... tut tut.

SimonM

07-06-2011, 11:40 AM

it is technical technical technical. if you know that details you can evoke it and repeat it, if not then you dont have the kung fu.

Every post you write demonstrates more how ignorant you are.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:41 AM

I don't konw how to answer your question and I can't answer for Sam either. As I had said, I only care about whether my punch can knock my opponent down or not.

The following is what I post before you bring up Sam,

there are 4 types or more in Yiquan and ancient power/momentum generation.

using these basic 4 types, one could control the acceleration, momentum trajectory, momentum transfer, and penetration.

So, power deliever system is not an issue if one has the 正传 or proper transmission.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:42 AM

Wasn't it Wang Xiang Zhai who said that the best thing we can do for kung fu is point out all the frauds?

My my, talk about not knowing your yiquan theory.... tut tut.

sure, point out the frauds with details physics not bad mouthing without specifics.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:44 AM

Every post you write demonstrates more how ignorant you are.

I keep saying I dont know it all. thus, I know my ignorant.

However, what I know I said it with specific and details.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:46 AM

What you're saying is, unless someone knows the full logic, method, ideology and system of yiquan, then they have no right to mention that yiquan guys can't even hit a punch bag with power.

Ok. Awesome.

What I am saying is I am a Wing Chun guy, some days I might have to fight a Yiquan guy, and I dont do assumption. I have to know their big guns, what to touch what not to touch.

bad mouthing with a clueless brain is just plain stupid to get one's as$ kick.

I am not even a Yiquan guy, I am a Wing Chun guy.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 11:48 AM

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:51 AM

the real deal is could you using modern physics to identify how many different type of momenentum generation mechanics exist in Yiquan's standing stake while practice the hun yun lik?
How many is Xing Yi's San Ti Shi? how many in a boxer's punch? how many in an mmA's take down.....etc?

The whole argument would be null in void, and you would be the winner if you would just explain how modern physics explains the many different types of momentum generated during standing on stake. Why havent you?

Using physics, can you explain how does Yiquan develop acceleration? How does Yiquan develop power? How does Yiquan develop momentum trajectory? How does Yiquan intercept, or not intercept? If it would help you can pick an application and explain. Then the doubters will have nothing to doubt. Why are you making it so difficult? :confused:

Using physics, can you explain how does Yiquan develop acceleration?

sure.

How does Yiquan develop power?

sure.

How does Yiquan develop momentum trajectory?

sure

How does Yiquan intercept, or not intercept?

sure.

If it would help you can pick an application and explain. Then the doubters will have nothing to doubt.
Why are you making it so difficult? :confused:

no one care if the doubters doubt, that is not my problem.

I dont make it difficult it is they dont have the basic and I am not their sifu who is responsible to teach them these basic stuffs.

and, if one doesnt know these basic stuffs, one cant even do a proper strike, not to mention having "fun" in high speed match.

without these basic, one is hopeless. martial art core is all about momentum generation and handling. those are the basic of the basic.

Talk is cheap. reason is cheap. now I have mention the 4 basic I am expecting those experts here to explain what these are. and I am waiting since I have open the communication in physics. there is nothing mysterious. one can communicate with physics. provided one knows what is it.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 11:59 AM

To me power generation is "compress" and "release". The more compression that you have, the power power that you can generate. Since the more compression that you have, the more time it will take. This cause a conflict between power and speed. The day that you have realized that if you have power, you will have to sacrifice speed (or the other way around), you will lose interest in seaching for maximum power and maximum speed.

In the following clip, you can see good Fajin there. Can you see how long it take to generate that power? Is that combat realistic at all?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

compress/ release is just one out of the four mechanics so that is not the full story.

he is just doing demo on activating ALL the basic mechanics elements slowly to show his students.

if you fight him, when he uses different combination of the basic mechanics as needed that is a different story.

if you cant identify the 4 basic I have mention in the clip and know how he handle it. then you dont know fajing.

Scott R. Brown

07-06-2011, 12:08 PM

let me tell you,
there are 4 types or more in Yiquan and ancient power/momentum generation.

using these basic 4 types, one could control the acceleration, momentum trajectory, momentum transfer, and penetration.

any one who claim to have good fajin or dealing with momentum knows how to handle these. otherwise, one simple flying blind.

Thus, i dont buy the BS or sung and knowing mechanics can fajing. those are just BS from those who has no idea what is going on.

so what is the 4 types? do you know? how to handle them? how is your body condition to generate them? Dont give me Sung. those means nothing.

That is like saying an ice skater cannot spin faster by pulling their arms in closer to their body, unless they know the details of centrifugal and cetripital force, except they can and DO every single day they skate! Knowing the principles of your 4 secret words will not help one develop power, just as knowing the principles of centrifugal and centripital force won't help a skater spin faster. You spin faster by practicing the movement, NOT by studying the secret principles that one can only learn from a Hendrik approved Master!

So, power deliever system is not an issue if one has the 正传 or proper transmission.

Wrong again! What is it like being wrong all the time!

You don't need a Henrik approved transmission in order to learn efficient power generation!

It takes practice!

I keep saying I dont know it all. thus, I know my ignorant.

However, what I know I said it with specific and details.

Yeah, you say it, but then act like you do know it all!

AND you DO NOT say it with any details! You use vague references and generalizations providing to no useful information to the reader, not to mention your repeated use of contradictory statements!

tiaji1983

07-06-2011, 12:08 PM

Is this a good example of Yiquan Fajing?

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 12:16 PM

Is this a good example of Yiquan Fajing?

get a sifu with proper transmission, and experience it via his coaching yourself. that way, there is no guessing and thinking. it is what it is. and you know it.

It is like asking what is a good example of having sex? one can watch all the porn movie but it is never what it is.

Scott R. Brown

07-06-2011, 12:20 PM

Yeah, get a good coach with good lineage to show you sex so you can have proper emission!

I know a good d!ckhead you could ask!

tiaji1983

07-06-2011, 12:25 PM

If you say sung means nothing, then you do not understand how to use it. If you are tense, your reaction time is slower. Even if its slower by a milisecond, the other person will arive first. To test this put your arm against someone like in a single hand push hands position. It works better if thier faster than you, and thier not as sung. Without warning, try to bring your hand down in a circle motion and touch your opponents belly. If you are tense they will be able to feel it and follow you, or block and strike. If you are sung, they wont notice you moved your hand until you've already connected.

You say that words mean nothing, this is true. But were on an internet forum. If we cant explain what were doing in words, then no one will learn anything.

Power comes from body structure. In the style I learned, we first, have proper, low stances, to develop the legs, then we go higher. we SINK so anything coming in can be redirected to earth. If you want me to elaborate I can suggest a couple training exercise. we use full body movement, so when the striking surface arrives, our whole body arrives. Power comes from the ground, to the waist, out to the striking surface. waist generates power, and dantien generates power. We also expand and contract, but any Chen Taijiquan stylist knows, you do not have to contract much to generate great power. Elusive power for Qinna defense also comes from simple body mechanics. Speed we train by being sung. For more "external" strikes, we tense only at the point of impact. we strike vital points so a lot of power is not needed, but we train so every motion is backed by our bodies and by earth. our fajing is a whip like motion, using what people are now calling "short Jin". Our long jin is short jin with larger movements, knowledge of the opponents weaknesses, stepping through, and more Yi. Qi plays into the equation but I wont discuss that since its highly doubted here, as its not necessary to hurt someone. Anyone have any questions I dont mind elaborating, after Friday I wont be on here for a while though. Back to my regular schedule and more training :D

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 12:44 PM

Just my opinion, and I can be wrong.

If you say sung means nothing, then you do not understand how to use it. If you are tense, your reaction time is slower.

Even if its slower by a milisecond, the other person will arive first. To test this put your arm against someone like in a single hand push hands position. It works better if thier faster than you, and thier not as sung.

Without warning, try to bring your hand down in a circle motion and touch your opponents belly.

If you are tense they will be able to feel it and follow you, or block and strike. If you are sung, they wont notice you moved your hand until you've already connected.

Those are just beginner level stuffs, as the chinese said, not even enter the hall.

there are more levels above what you are saying, until one reaches there, what you mention is good for demo...etc. but it really doesnt do much.

You say that words mean nothing, this is true. But were on an internet forum. If we cant explain what were doing in words, then no one will learn anything.

Sung has the level of loose as everyone can do as you describe above.

then the practice reach to the level of 一羽不能加 or one feather not add or levitate.

then the practice further into the level of 忘身 or Forget the body

So, Sung as you describe is doing not much at all in the cultivation. very low level.

only after entering the level of levitate, one start to practice the multi-dimensional force vectors handling and lead to dong Jing or knowing the jing.

Power comes from body structure.

power doesnt comes from body structure.
In physics, power is the rate at which work is performed or energy is converted.

In the style I learned, we first, have proper, low stances, to develop the legs, then we go higher. we SINK so anything coming in can be redirected to earth. If you want me to elaborate I can suggest a couple training exercise. we use full body movement, so when the striking surface arrives, our whole body arrives.

Power comes from the ground, to the waist, out to the striking surface. waist generates power, and dantien generates power. We also expand and contract,

This above just show you are not in the Dong Jing level yet and doing the same with the external art people.

So, unless you get to the level of levitate, you will not know what it is like. no one can teach you that but it is a journey you have to walk yourself. for those who has been there it is simple and clear otherwise it totally doesnt make sense. we all go through that.

as for the 4 basic mechancis if the body doesnt aware of how to do that individually then the body doesnt really know what to do. so, transforming the body is a big part. and the ancient did that in Standing stake. it is not sung, sung is just the begining of the begining.

the sung before the level of levitation has not much use.

YiQuanOne

07-06-2011, 12:51 PM

I've had it up to here with your "humble opinions" b!tch.

You want to know about my Sifu? Read the September / October 2010 issue of KFM. He's profiled there. You are an ignorant, deluded, little LARPER and I'm done with you.

If your instructor is good , how come you know so little?.

tiaji1983

07-06-2011, 12:56 PM

Those are just beginner level stuffs, as the chinese said, not even enter the hall.

there are more levels above what you are saying, until one reaches there, what you mention is good for demo...etc. but it really doesnt do much

Correct, beginner level stuff, hence why I share it, because someone trying it for the first time is a beginner, BUT it does do much when you learn to apply it. 1. you can slip through the opponents defenses undetected, you can feel thier movements more easily, and stick and follow easier, plus you will be faster than someone who is tense. If you dont see the value in that then what you learned isnt for combat.

Sung has the level of loose as everyone can do as you describe above.

then the practice reach to the level of 一羽不能加 or one feather not add or levitate.

then the practice further into the level of 忘身 or Forget the body

So, Sung as you describe is doing not much at all in the cultivation. very low level.

only after entering the level of levitate, one start to practice the multi-dimensional force vectors handling and lead to dong Jing or knowing the jing.

I agree about the levels of sung. I agree I need to be more sung. BUT as far as multi dimensional force vectors are a mechanism of the body, so they can be explained. Unless your just saying its qi. then its not a mechanism of the body but something more. My understanding of dong jing is understanding jing, not meaning to understand jing, but to understand your opponent. You can train that simply by watching dust fly as you sweep a room. its ability to understand your opponent. first its in push hands, then its without contact, then its knowing what your opponent is doing before they do it. I have some understanding jing, just havent mastered it yet.

power doesnt comes from body structure.
In physics, power is the rate at which work is performed or energy is converted.

This above just show you are not in the Dong Jing level yet and doing the same with the external art people.

If you do not have body structure. you can be easily pushed over. I hope your not serious about that.

YiQuanOne

07-06-2011, 12:56 PM

Why do you presume we haven't? I have been thrown around, long enough to figure out the biomechanics and to make it so I cannot be thrown around any longer, unless I allow it!

Therefore I MUST have Anti-Qi!:D:p;)

Kind of like Anti-Matter, ONLY BETTER!:cool:

It depends who was throwing you around, if external guy throwing you around, sure more practice you learn how to counter.

If internal guy throwing you around more practice will not create counter.

So from what you are saying it sounds like external guys throwing practice.

SPJ

07-06-2011, 12:57 PM

2 things

1. power generation, if not careful, you hurt yourself first, you rotate your waist too hard, you hurt your spine. you inhale or exhale too hard, you burst capillary in your lung, or nose bleed--

2. theory of hun yuan

a. xing yi has spirally forward, upward etc. it is not really unidirectional. but generally one direction

b, hun would be mixing of all the general directionals

c. yuan is circle or ball like

go ahead and have fun of discussing hun and yuan

but in practice

they are not necessarily stronger or more powerful.

the spiralling effect is more destructive or drilling instead of linear or piston like forward and backward only

--

carry on.

:)

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 12:59 PM

If your instructor is good , how come you know so little?.

Let's not get the instructor in.

it is just a technical discussion. I am totally open for anyone to really technically discuss the pro and con of yiquan or anything.

tiaji1983

07-06-2011, 01:04 PM

YiQuanOne

07-06-2011, 01:09 PM

Let's not get the instructor in.

it is just a technical discussion. I am totally open for anyone to really technically discuss the pro and con of yiquan or anything.

The guy dosn't have enough knowledge to participate in discussion.

Maybe his instructor has not told him yet because he is not ready.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 01:10 PM

I agree about the levels of sung. I agree I need to be more sung. BUT as far as multi dimensional force vectors are a mechanism of the body, so they can be explained. Unless your just saying its qi. then its not a mechanism of the body but something more.

multi-dimentional force vectors is a different stuffs with Qi.

multi-dimentional force vectors playing just means one is aware and manipulate the multi-dimentional force vectors in ALL direction in the same time at once.

unless your body is transform that way, you mind will not be able to comprehend what this means.

My understanding of dong jing is understanding jing, not meaning to understand jing, but to understand your opponent. You can train that simply by watching dust fly as you sweep a room. its ability to understand your opponent. first its in push hands, then its without contact, then its knowing what your opponent is doing before they do it. I have some understanding jing, just havent mastered it yet.

That is your brain and mind's speculation. get to the levitation level and then experience what it is. speculation is only lead you into trouble and really useless when facing a strong non linear momentum.

power doesnt comes from body structure.
In physics, power is the rate at which work is performed or energy is converted.

This above just show you are not in the Dong Jing level yet and doing the same with the external art people.
-- hendrik

If you do not have body structure. you can be easily pushed over. I hope your not serious about that.

Those body structure stuffs as my brother sifu Robert Chu brought up in WCK's world to educate people are just beginner stuffs. those are static and external.

in the real figthing everything is keep changing and moving so one needs to get into the Dynamic level where no forms. as it says

气連心意隨時用, 打破身式無遮攔

Qi link with intention could be evoke-able at any time, momentum not bound by structure and it is un-stopable flow."

Finally, we just cant be naive. there are lots of stuffs and level to go....that is kung fu a life long journey. I am not even a Yiquan or Taiji guy, I am a Wing Chun guy. and I see so much benifit these others art offer.

tiaji1983

07-06-2011, 01:20 PM

Im aware Im not at the top yet. My short term goal is just to be able to beat my teacher. But I dont want to spend time training things that are not practical. I sink standng and moving. If there is a straight force coming in, moving, I can stop it, If its a circle force, I move into it, if they grab, I flow with it. All while sinking so they cannot push me back. Even if were struck, we train to take the punch, and go with it, either let it roll off or move with it, and use that momentum to strike, for example, they connect with your in the stomache, bend and let it come in, use play the lute to break the arm. We also do iron wire for that. But saying that one day I will get to a level where I can stand up without sinking and no one can move me is not practical and I wouldnt risk training with that in mind. Sinking is not part of a form, and practicing forms is to become formless.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 01:24 PM

Im aware Im not at the top yet. My short term goal is just to be able to beat my teacher.

But I dont want to spend time training things that are not practical. I sink standng and moving. If there is a straight force coming in, moving, I can stop it, If its a circle force, I move into it, if they grab, I flow with it.

All while sinking so they cannot push me back. Even if were struck, we train to take the punch, and go with it, either let it roll off or move with it, and use that momentum to strike, for example, they connect with your in the stomache, bend and let it come in, use play the lute to break the arm.

We also do iron wire for that. But saying that one day I will get to a level where I can stand up without sinking and no one can move me is not practical and I wouldnt risk training with that in mind. Sinking is not part of a form, and practicing forms is to become formless.

anyone who does internal art knows, one just surrender and let God make the call. the rest is false thinking and ego.

Good luck in you path.

SimonM

07-06-2011, 01:29 PM

one just surrender and let God make the call.

Here's the crux of your problem right here.

Any martial art that leaves it in the hand of the invisible sky giant is fundamentally flawed.

dirtyrat

07-06-2011, 01:42 PM

Here's the crux of your problem right here.

Any martial art that leaves it in the hand of the invisible sky giant is fundamentally flawed.

i don't think hendriks is referring to an invisible sky giant when talking about god.

without getting too much into defining "God" or going into philosophy or whatever, what we do know is that in learning martial arts, conquering one's ego is paramount, for it often obscure our view of reality and hides the obvious solutions.

Northwind

07-06-2011, 01:47 PM

I don't know enough about, nor have I trained in, Yi Quan / Da Cheng Quan, to comment about the system.

However I do enjoy ZZ practice and find it beneficial.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 03:09 PM

Here's the crux of your problem right here.

Any martial art that leaves it in the hand of the invisible sky giant is fundamentally flawed.

Speaking of Chinese internal practice,

If this is Chinese forum I would use the word Dao.
since it is an western forum I use the word God.

Let Go and Let God be or surrender to God has no different with the following.

Chapter 29 --Dao De Ching

Do you want to improve the world?
I don't think it can be done.

The world is sacred.
It can't be improved.
If you tamper with it, you'll ruin it.
If you treat it like an object, you'll lose it.

There is a time for being ahead,
a time for being behind;
a time for being in motion,
a time for being at rest;
a time for being vigorous,
a time for being exhausted;
a time for being safe,
a time for being in danger.

The Master sees things as they are,
without trying to control them.
She lets them go their own way,
and resides at the center of the circle.

also, anyone who really cultivate internal art knows ，心静順自然不可作意,
mind is quiet, let natural take its corse and never using Yi to force it. otherwise, one is going to run fire and enter demon.

as I have mention previously on
proper transmission or 正传.

Proper transmission and proper practice means one follow one single teaching. 心静順自然.mind is quiet, let natural take its corse

also as it said,

拳无拳，意无意，无拳无意是真意

martial art is no longer martial art, intention is no longer intention, No martial art no intention is the true intention.

武术练到了化境，

When one's martial art kung fu attain to the level of transformation

伴随而来的是举手投足均能收到技击效果。

any move has the fighting effect and result.

拳脚用不着摆好动手的架式，

There is no need in any posture or shape.

思想用不着做好应对的准备，

There is no need to make any kind of preparation in one's mind.

So, without cultivating 心静順自然. mind is quiet, let natural take its corse, there is no way to arrive at 拳无拳，意无意，无拳无意是真意.

proper transmission means start from the day one until the rest of the life one only perfecting one thing. instead of doing one thing, thinking another, and dreaming another.

so, if you speaking other stuffs? I dont know, but speaking Chinese Internal martial art training, again, you missed the proper transmission 心法 or heart method.

any one wants the real deal that is how the real deal goes for Internal cultivation.

Water-quan

07-06-2011, 03:38 PM

multi-dimentional force vectors is a different stuffs with Qi.

multi-dimentional force vectors playing just means one is aware and manipulate the multi-dimentional force vectors in ALL direction in the same time at once.

unless your body is transform that way, you mind will not be able to comprehend what this means.

That is your brain and mind's speculation. get to the levitation level and then experience what it is. speculation is only lead you into trouble and really useless when facing a strong non linear momentum.

Those body structure stuffs as my brother sifu Robert Chu brought up in WCK's world to educate people are just beginner stuffs. those are static and external.

in the real figthing everything is keep changing and moving so one needs to get into the Dynamic level where no forms. as it says

气連心意隨時用, 打破身式無遮攔

Qi link with intention could be evoke-able at any time, momentum not bound by structure and it is un-stopable flow."

Finally, we just cant be naive. there are lots of stuffs and level to go....that is kung fu a life long journey. I am not even a Yiquan or Taiji guy, I am a Wing Chun guy. and I see so much benifit these others art offer.

It must take some efforts to keep this pigeon English stuffs going. I hope the roleplay is getting you something. It's ok - I know ;)

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 03:50 PM

拳无拳，意无意，无拳无意是真意

martial art is no longer martial art, intention is no longer intention, No martial art no intention is the true intention.
I'm sorry to say that this kind of thinking will bring TCMA all the way down to hell. Combat is to

- plan ahead of time.
- hide your preparation without letting your opponent know.
- set your oponent up.
- bring your opponent into your trap.
- use your strength to against your opponent's weakness.
- use your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm.
- give your opponent as little choices as possible.
- ...

How can you say that "no intention is the true intention"?

When GWB attacked Iraq, did GWB have "intention"?

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 03:51 PM

It must take some efforts to keep this pigeon English stuffs going. I hope the roleplay is getting you something. It's ok - I know ;)

I dont know what you are talking about. but I am always open for suggestion.

donjitsu2

07-06-2011, 03:54 PM

However I do enjoy ZZ practice and find it beneficial.

Me too.

Makes you stronger, builds good focus.

Too much though...not so good.

10 min. on training days (20 min on "active rest"days) is more than enough.

Train Hard,

Josh Skinner

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 03:58 PM

I'm sorry to say that this kind of thinking will bring TCMA all the way down to hell. Combat is to

- plan ahead of time.
- hide your preparation without letting your opponent know.
- set your oponent up.
- bring your opponent into your trap.
- use your strength to against your opponent's weakness.
- use your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm.
- ...

How can you say that "no intention is the true intention"? When GWB attacked Iraq, did GWB have "intention"?

what the Chinese ancestor address is not thinking, that is beyond thinking.

it is asking one to get to the state that everything is martial effective and one can make use of every situation as water just flow.

unless one has attain the transformation state to drop one's mind and use the awareness. one really dont know.

You know where your fear and stress comes? it comes from you are afraid your plan fail. also can life be plan ahead? you think so but what is the facts?

if you want to talk war, I dont know. but if you want to talk Chinese Internal art then that is how it is as it is.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 04:01 PM

if you want to talk war, I dont know. but if you want to talk Chinese Internal art then that is how it is as it is.

TCMA (include ICMA and ECMA) = combat = war.

When you are facing your opponent, if you want to move to your left (or right), which leg to move first depends on how far and what angle that your opponent are in front of you. How can you make a move without "intention"?

SimonM

07-06-2011, 04:04 PM

TCMA (include ICMA and ECMA) = combat = war.

Yes, thank you.

Which brings us full circle - if you want to be combat effective you have to be capable physically and psychologically of combat.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 04:06 PM

TCMA (include ICMA and ECMA) = combat = war.

that is you and fine with me.

But you dont represent Chinese tradition and you dont do Chinese Internal Martial art.

could some one translate the following general examples

郭云深讲的：拳无拳，意无意，无意之中是真意。

董海川睡着觉，徒弟要给他盖衣服。衣服一下去，人却不见了，回头老师已经坐在椅子上了。

李钟轩老先生说:练形意的人在掉下悬崖时，接近地面了，双手会击向绝壁，使身体改变方向，从而避免受伤。

以上例子都说明，武功到了高深的境界，一遇危险，来不及思考，身体会做出反应。

Since I am not these people above, ask them are can they fight.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 04:14 PM

you dont do Chinese Internal Martial art.郭云深 ...董海川...李钟轩...
I started my Taiji training when I was 7 years old. Yes! I don't do Chinese Internal Martial art that "walk above the cloud".

Sorry that I don't believe in fairy tales. Have you heard about the story of 柳森严? My teacher had seen his demo.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 04:25 PM

I started my Taiji training when I was 7 years old. Yes! I don't do your kind of Chinese Internal Martial art and that's for sure. Soory that I don't believe in fairy tales.

Kou Yin Shen speak on Xing Yi by Sun Lu-Dang

郭云深讲

Kou Yin Shen said

拳无拳，意无意，无拳无意是真意

martial art is no longer martial art, intention is no longer intention, No martial art no intention is the true intention.

http://www.360doc.com/content/11/0515/10/5409795_116815091.shtml

So that is the Xing Yi tranditional proper transmission like it or not.
and since we talk about Xing Yi and Yiquan here. so need to follow what is the proper transmission to present what it is instead of other view.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 04:32 PM

郭云深讲

Kou Yin Shen said

拳无拳，意无意，无拳无意是真意

martial art is no longer martial art, intention is no longer intention, No martial art no intention is the true intention.
As far as 郭云深, here is some statement from one of his students.

- My teacher's teacher could spit out a sword from his mouth and kill his enemy 1000 miles away (excellent skill).
- My teacher could spit out a sword from his mouth and kill his enemy 100 feet away (get worse).
- I can spit out a nuts and hit on a tree 10 feet away (get even worse). Since my high blood pressure, I no longer be able to do that (refuse to prove it).

I just can't believe that this is the kind of fairy tales that you believe in. :(

SPJ

07-06-2011, 04:33 PM

I'm sorry to say that this kind of thinking will bring TCMA all the way down to hell. Combat is to

- plan ahead of time.
- hide your preparation without letting your opponent know.
- set your oponent up.
- bring your opponent into your trap.
- use your strength to against your opponent's weakness.
- use your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm.
- give your opponent as little choices as possible.
- ...

How can you say that "no intention is the true intention"?

When GWB attacked Iraq, did GWB have "intention"?

a lot of good ideas brought up in this thread, but they got all tangled up.

there are these debats since time immemorial (can not be remembered, or long and long time ago).

1. observe first, let the opponent start, we follow and respond/counter. we passively respond. (tai Ji)

2. we fight our way, and let the opponent go into our trap, we actively guide the fight. (mantis, tong bei---)

both are correct.

3. hard power but lost speed. one strike is enough for KO. (ba ji)

4. rapid speed but less power. strike after strike till the opponent's out. (tong bei)

but are correct.

5 internal is very important but only if you have a good external base first.

6 there is limit to external training, there is no limit in internal training

both are correct.

---

carry on.

:)

SimonM

07-06-2011, 04:35 PM

So that is the Xing Yi tranditional proper transmission like it or not.

More pedantic posturing. I'm beginning to wonder if you even realize that your posts read that way.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 04:40 PM

and since we talk about Xing Yi ...
First you said, "you don't do Chinese Internal Martial art". Now you talk about XingYi. Sorry that I only started my XingYi when I was 15 years old. I assume I'm not qualified to discuss the XingYi system. By the way I also train Bagua (only 8 palms) as well.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 04:47 PM

a lot of good ideas brought up in this thread, but they got all tangled up.

Any discussion will be more fun than just "internal power generation".

SPJ

07-06-2011, 04:50 PM

YKW is one generation ahead of me.

when he was in high school and shuai jiao

I was like still in open pants or kai dang gu.

so when he said something I listen.

:cool:

xing yi is like a big truck or tank, you keep going and going

it is like in your face and still going.

tai ji is like circling and circling, retreat and back/forward

ba gua is like walking in a serpentine (snake) path.

they all have both external and internal aspect of training.

standing stake is only part of it and not all of it.

ba gua has holding a heavy metal ball.

tai ji has lifting heavy weight, too.

xing yi has heavy punch or striking, too.

--

end of rants.

:)

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 04:53 PM

As far as 郭云深, here is some statement from one of his students.

- My teacher's teacher could spit out a sword from his mouth and kill his enemy 1000 miles away.
- My teacher could spit out a sword from his mouth and kill his enemy 100 feet away (get worse).
- I can spit out a nuts and hit on a tree 10 feet away (get even worse). Since my high blood pressure, I no longer be able to do that (refuse to prove it).

I just can't believe that this is the kind of fairy tales that you believe in. :(

you know,

拳无拳，意无意，无拳无意是真意

martial art is no longer martial art, intention is no longer intention, No martial art no intention is the true intention.

in its basic level
just means be spontaneous in mind and body no predetermination

what is the big deal?

why is such a big deal to keep step on TCMA tradition and Xing Yi's ancestor Kou Yin Shen?

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 04:57 PM

First you said, "you don't do Chinese Internal Martial art". Now you talk about XingYi. Sorry that I only started my XingYi when I was 15 years old. I assume I'm not qualified to discuss the XingYi system. By the way I also train Bagua (only 8 palms) as well.

when we talk about Xing Yi, dont we have to based on the facts from the Xing Yi ancestors?

if the discussion is center in oneself that is misleading and also lots of ego.

Scott R. Brown

07-06-2011, 04:59 PM

when we talk about Xing Yi, dont we have to based on the facts from the Xing Yi ancestors?

if the discussion is center in oneself that is misleading and also lots of ego.

If you are so concerned about ego, why do you not attend to your own?

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 04:59 PM

why is such a big deal to keep step on TCMA tradition and Xing Yi's ancestor Kou Yin Shen?

Because those statement will lead TCMA futher away from the "combat reality".

As far as Kou Yin Shen, I just quoted what his student's wrote in one issue of the 新武侠 magazine (from HK).

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 05:02 PM

More pedantic posturing. I'm beginning to wonder if you even realize that your posts read that way.

if you were me, how will you present it?

YiQuanOne

07-06-2011, 05:03 PM

you know,

拳无拳，意无意，无拳无意是真意

martial art is no longer martial art, intention is no longer intention, No martial art no intention is the true intention.

in its basic level
just means be spontaneous in mind and body no predetermination

what is the big deal?

why is such a big deal to keep step on TCMA tradition and Xing Yi's ancestor Kou Yin Shen?

Because if you practice external it is not spontaneous, you have to try to think out your plan ahead of time, so if you pick the wrong plan you are in trouble.

There is more monkey mind slow thinking in external practice.

I would say a lot of execution stages are spontaneous, but still picking a set of moves and combinations ahead of time with a strategy.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 05:06 PM

if you were me, how will you present it?

I will not separate "theory" from "combat reality". When you said:

- no intention is intention,
- no love is love,
- no good is good,
- ...

You just make thing even more confused.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 05:10 PM

I will not separate "theory" from "combat reality". When you said:

- no intention is intention,
- no love is love,
- no good is good,
- ...

You just make thing even more confused.

Ok. now present Kou Yin Shen teaching in your words.

Scott R. Brown

07-06-2011, 05:10 PM

Because if you practice external it is not spontaneous, you have to try to think out your plan ahead of time, so if you pick the wrong plan you are in trouble.

There is more monkey mind slow thinking in external practice.

I would say a lot of execution stages are spontaneous, but still picking a set of moves and combinations ahead of time with a strategy.

This might be the problem, have you trained any external then?

Where did you get the idea that external practice is about planning ahead?

This is WAY not true!

The best fighters know how to respond spontaneously to unpredictable circumstances. This is part of all fighting, NOT just internal sytles!

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 05:14 PM

if you pick the wrong plan you are in trouble.

You are confused between offense (you attack first) and defense (your opponent attacks first). When GWB sent his troops to attack Irag, he didn't just send his soldiers spontaneously and let them to attack wherever they like.

Scott R. Brown

07-06-2011, 05:19 PM

You are confused between offense (you attack first) and defense (your opponent attacks first). When GWB sent his troops to attack Irag, he didn't just send his soldiers spontaneously.

True, but every soldier knows that the execution of the best laid plans rarely follow the original plan. The goal does not necessarily change, but the way you get there changes according to immediate circumstances. Thus "spontaneous response" to changing circumstances!;)

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 05:20 PM

You are confused between offense (you attack first) and defense (your opponent attacks first). When GWB sent his troops to attack Irag, he didn't just send his soldiers spontaneously and let them to attack wherever they like.

boss,

it is not a war

in exchange strike no one has time to think or have a shape or posture to follow....

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 05:23 PM

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 05:27 PM

boss,

it is not a war

in exchange strike no one has time to think or have a shape or posture to follow....

When your opponent

- punches at you, you don't have to punch back.
- kicks at you, you don't have to kick back.

You still need to follow your "plan" by using your "strength (which may not be your kicking and punching ability)" to solve the incoming problem.

By responsing punches with punches is "no plan", the lowest level or combat strategy.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 05:30 PM

contradict to general believe about internal art

The following is the definition of internal art and why Xing Yi is internal art based on Kou Yin Shen.

自最初还虚，以至未后还虚，循环无端之理，无声无臭之德此皆名为形意拳之道也。其拳术最初积蓄之真意与气以至满足中立而不倚,和而不流无形无象此谓拳中之内劲也。

（内家拳术之名，即此理也）

其拳中之内劲，最初练之人不知其所以然之理，因其理最微妙，不能不详言之,免后学入于歧途.初学入门有三害 ,九要之规矩,三害莫犯,九要不失其理,

so one want to translate it?

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 05:37 PM

Plan can be changed which is different from "no intention". When ancient Chinese said, "no intention", I truly don't know what that person was talking about. It's so abstract and hardly to be able to apply in our daily life.

because you are not train in

拳无拳，意无意，无意之中是真意。拳打三节不见形，如见形影不为能

YiQuanOne

07-06-2011, 05:51 PM

This might be the problem, have you trained any external then?

Where did you get the idea that external practice is about planning ahead?

This is WAY not true!

The best fighters know how to respond spontaneously to unpredictable circumstances. This is part of all fighting, NOT just internal sytles!

Well I should say most external, until trained reaction is attained, but then you get caught in predictable response.

The other guy gave the guide lines of the plan, not me.

Everyone has trained external, that is the way everyone starts out.

They show you a bunch of worthless techniques plus kicks executed while wearing no shoes and a gi, against the resistence of air, and then have you kick and punch a bag, and then put the gloves on you and tell you to do boxing and kicking on your opponent.

Its good exercise, and you get a good workout. But with no sensitity training you do not learn much.There is no corrective feed back loop, like doing Wing Chun chi sau or Tai Chi push hands, that training gives you a chance to correct your improper natural reactions.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 06:01 PM

There is no corrective feed back loop, like doing Wing Chun chi sau or Tai Chi push hands, that training gives you a chance to correct your improper natural reactions.

you know, it is even more then the above

拳无拳，意无意，无意之中是真意。拳打三节不见形，如见形影不为能

in brief means

spontaneous mind and body response, any part make the contact ,strike at that contact ,be it as far as fist or as close as the body. if one has shape and shadow that is not good kung fu.

So, spontaneous no thinking and no plan.

IE: one can plan but the punch missed. now what? in internal no pull back if the wrist touch the wrist deliver the strike. if the ass touch the ass do the strike. that is the reason for the Standing stake. standing stake is to implement the whole body is condition with the mind by passed as an explosive, any place made contact any place explode or fajing.

That is what it means by martial art is no longer martial art, intention is no longer intention, No martial art no intention is the true intention.

The issue is do one's body-mind-momentum train to that level? there is no plan there is no time for next plan next move. in one move, if something missed it continously flow.

Thus, it says

气連心意隨時用, 打破身式無遮攔

Qi link with intention could be evoke-able at any time, momentum not bound by structure and it is un-stopable flow.

a different way of fighting which is not the same with the plan execute correction....type. that is 正传 or proper transmission of internal art. clearly describe in Kou Yin Shen's transmission. even Chen Taiji use it, take a look at CXW's youtube when he examine fajing. he too use the term 拳打三节不见形 any part make the contact ,strike at that contact ,be it as far as fist or as close as the body.

SPJ

07-06-2011, 06:08 PM

拳无拳，意无意，无意之中是真意。拳打三节不见形，如见形影不为能

actually, you still have plans, you still have tactics and strategy.

you just do not reveal them first to the opponent.

so that they may not see or predict.

you still strike the 3 sections of the opponent's body (high, mid, low) without revealing your shape/posture/intention.

if the opponent is able to see your shape/posture/shadow/intention.

he will respond so that you may not be successful in what you are about to do.

--

etc etc.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 06:14 PM

actually, you still have plans, you still have tactics and strategy.

you just do not reveal them first to the opponent.

so that they may not see or predict.

you still strike the 3 sections of the opponent's body (high, mid, low) without revealing your shape/posture/intention.

if the opponent is able to see your shape/posture/shadow/intention.

he will respond so that you may not be successful in what you are about to do.

--

etc etc.

plan is as good as first contact, after that what is the facts for anyone who fight with good fighter?

SimonM

07-06-2011, 06:16 PM

if you were me, how will you present it?

I'd start by not telling every single person who disagreed with you that they just have no kung fu.

And I'd carry on from there to not directly attacking other people's sifus.

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 06:24 PM

I'd start by not telling every single person who disagreed with you that they just have no kung fu.

And I'd carry on from there to not directly attacking other people's sifus.

Good, you have chance to present it here.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 08:37 PM

because you are not train in

拳无拳，意无意，无意之中是真意。拳打三节不见形，如见形影不为能

What bother me the most is some of the "internal' discussion only talks about "solo" as if the word "opponent" is not even in their dictionary. If you live in Hermit Peak NM alone by yourself, why do you need to train TCMA for?

Am I the only person feel this way?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.michaelmcgarrity.com/images/locales_files/hermit1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.michaelmcgarrity.com/hermits_peak.htm&usg=__7cBJs708Xjy8Us-rr1_VegVU0ho=&h=401&w=594&sz=23&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=31se1EE1Z0_m9M:&tbnh=148&tbnw=221&ei=cSkVTsfdF-LiiALU9qGHDw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhermit%2Bpeak%2Bnm%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX %26rlz%3D1T4PPST_enUS398US398%26biw%3D1344%26bih%3 D622%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=192&vpy=101&dur=3789&hovh=184&hovw=273&tx=199&ty=90&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&biw=1344&bih=622

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 08:42 PM

What bother me the most is some of the "internal' discussion only talks about "solo" as if the word "opponent" is not even in their dictionary. If you live in Hermit Peak NM alone by yourself, why do you need to train TCMA for?

Am I the only person feel this way?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.michaelmcgarrity.com/images/locales_files/hermit1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.michaelmcgarrity.com/hermits_peak.htm&usg=__7cBJs708Xjy8Us-rr1_VegVU0ho=&h=401&w=594&sz=23&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=31se1EE1Z0_m9M:&tbnh=148&tbnw=221&ei=cSkVTsfdF-LiiALU9qGHDw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhermit%2Bpeak%2Bnm%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX %26rlz%3D1T4PPST_enUS398US398%26biw%3D1344%26bih%3 D622%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=192&vpy=101&dur=3789&hovh=184&hovw=273&tx=199&ty=90&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&biw=1344&bih=622

you know,

I think because you are a SC guy, so you think the whole world has to be running according to the SC way. hahaha.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 08:44 PM

plan is as good as first contact, after that what is the facts for anyone who fight with good fighter?

- Move back,
- obtain the distance that you need,
- follow your plan.

If single leg take down is the only thing that you can do, it will be stupid for you to exchange punches against a boxer and forget that you are a wrestler.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 08:49 PM

you know,

I think because you are a SC guy, so you think the whole world has to be running according to the SC way. hahaha.

What's your world then? Kumbaya?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiD_U4CHQ

SPJ

07-06-2011, 09:18 PM

What bother me the most is some of the "internal' discussion only talks about "solo" as if the word "opponent" is not even in their dictionary. If you live in Hermit Peak NM alone by yourself, why do you need to train TCMA for?

chinese lingo has many meanings especially the old text.

the sentence is actually meant this way

fist has no fixed method,

intention has no fixed intention.

find true intention among no fixed intentions.

you hide them. or you vary them/fighting methods.

at first, you need to learn several methods, and then vary them. such as pi beng zhuan pao heng (Kou yun shen famed xing yi boxer).

the trick is that all start and end with san ti.

you may think I am going to pi from top down, I may actually beng in the mid level.

3 sections of the body.

you only see san ti, you do not know which of the 5 fists. i will be using.

b/c the start and end shape or xing and shadow (yin) may look the same to you.

that just a sentence that described the tactics and strategy of xing yi fists.

of course, you may apply the same to other styles.

my point is that

it is not a solo thinking.

it is very much dependent on your opponent.

there is another old saying, jian zhao chu zhao and jian zhao da zhao.

you see a move, you start your counter

you see a move, you destroy that move.

high level of xing yi, is that you do not see my fist methods, you do not know my intent, I do not show shape or shadow

etc etc.

b/c I vary them, I have no fixed methods. I hide my fist and intents among many and varied fists and intents.

:cool:

Hendrik

07-06-2011, 09:23 PM

What's your world then? Kumbaya?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiD_U4CHQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0DGvblpXgE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua1tMm0K0W0&NR=1

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 09:31 PM

I have no fixed methods.

I do. My favor method is to get your leading leg, and then to get your back leg. When I have both of your legs, you have no place to go but fall down to the ground. It's such a simple method but how many different ways can you get your opponent's leading bleg (M)? How many different ways can you get your opponent's back leg (N)? There are M x N different combinations just for a simple method like this.

YouKnowWho

07-06-2011, 09:42 PM

I think because you are a SC guy, so you think the whole world has to be running according to the SC way. hahaha.
Do you:

- teach WC?
- ever have challengers knocked on your door?
- always prepare yourself to be the best combat condition?
- have boxer challenger you boxing?
- have MT guy challenge you kick boxing?
- have Judo guy challenge you pure wrestling?
- even have challenger who just want to challenge you in "arm wrestling" contest?

SPJ

07-07-2011, 06:37 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe9Q4Ecy8xI

the answers my friend in french, german, spanish, and japanese.

instant classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yplMhdc9NSo&feature=related

zhou xin chi in agent ling ling qi light paint (the same sound of 007)

he disguised as a butcher that sells pork. he may split a fly with a knife.

he was a decoy to lure out the real target.

he fell in love with her target/assasin.

action, singing/lousy but funny music, romance, gun/knife---

instant classic comedy.

:)

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 06:40 AM

Do you:

- teach WC?
- ever have challengers knocked on your door?
- always prepare yourself to be the best combat condition?
- have boxer challenger you boxing?
- have MT guy challenge you kick boxing?
- have Judo guy challenge you pure wrestling?
- even have challenger who just want to challenge you in "arm wrestling" contest?

what is that related with Xing Yi, Yiquan which is the topic of this thread?

SPJ

07-07-2011, 07:05 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRaMTosgj3k

johnny cash powerful message for peace.

kind of weird but powerful.

"blowing in the wind". the most famed antiwar or peace song.

:cool:

back to regular discussion

:D

SimonM

07-07-2011, 07:36 AM

YouKnowWho just give up. There's none so deaf as those who don't want to hear and Hendrik doesn't want anybody interfering in his fantasy world where anybody who does things even one iota differently from him is wrong.

He is a lost cause. He isn't a fighter, he isn't even a larper. He's just a pedant who tried too hard to conflate his martial practice with his spiritual beliefs and ended up with a confused jumble of self-contradictions.

"Qi isn't magic but it isn't rooted in body mechanics either. Instead it is something you can only know through immediate experience."

Followed by "If you disagree with me you are wrong, you clearly have not had that experience but it transcends words so I can only describe it by couching it in the metaphor of the 'ancients.'"

Considering Xingyi can only be reliably traced back to Dai Longbang (Who died in 1801), unless you buy into the Yue Fei myth - for which we have only third-hand accounts - the style is really only about 250 years old, hardly ancient.

As for Yiquan it is less than a century old.

Ultimately Hendrik's argument is a ham-fisted attempt to shoe-horn martial arts into Ch'an. I say ham-fisted because he's so attached to the underlying premise - that the way IMA generates power is fundamentally different from the way other martial arts generate power and fundamentally superior - that he can't realize that immediate experience, in this case, involves people like you and I training with wrestlers, training with Xingyi sifus, training with other people in general, experiencing how power is generated, how balance works, how a body roots and is unrooted.

You buy the myth that IMA gives you roots that can never be pulled up and then you fear to test it ever because, underneath the attachment you feel to that myth you suspect it is an illusion.

Hendrik is approaching this discussion from a religious position even if that isn't his intent. Arguing with him is as futile as arguing with any other religious zealot.

bawang

07-07-2011, 08:02 AM

hendrik is a wing chun guy. last year he said he trained emei snake boxing. now hes a master of yiquan and copies and pastes from some chinese guys blog.

lol x10

Scott R. Brown

07-07-2011, 08:26 AM

He is probably a bit psycho!

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 08:30 AM

rett

07-07-2011, 08:36 AM

In the following clip, you can see good Fajin there. Can you see how long it take to generate that power? Is that combat realistic at all?

Is an airstrike combat realistic if it takes half an hour to call in?

Maybe that Fajin is a finishing strike that has to be set up right. For example you accept opponent's strike with a block-deflect that also is the compression phase for a counter.

Just guesses here. I'm new on the forum and realize I'm butting in. just curious how people think, I don't know much.

SPJ

07-07-2011, 08:49 AM

Is an airstrike combat realistic if it takes half an hour to call in?

Maybe that Fajin is a finishing strike that has to be set up right. For example you accept opponent's strike with a block-deflect that also is the compression phase for a counter.

Just guesses here. I'm new on the forum and realize I'm butting in. just curious how people think, I don't know much.

when you express power in the air without any receiving objects or people

you may only do 5% or less. b/c your body has to absorb or rebalance all the power you just generated. mostly in your joints.

so you have to use a bag, dummy or sparring partner.

etc etc

in short I do not believe in fully expression of full power in the air.

that is another religion or mis belief deeply rooted in many novice or non MA people.

especially for tai ji and ba ji.

sad really sad.

science and physics are laws of nature

one has to do it and feel it first hand as pointed out.

--

:(

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 09:49 AM

the chinese said, “行家一出手，就知有没有” or " seeing a movement from those who has master the art , one will know are there true mastery."

here, seems that it is only

虚有其名 or only fill with empty big name without any content.

so,
instead of finding what is a fact of Xing Yi and Yiquan according to the proper source, the agenda is always just trying to boost one's ego whether one has a clue on the topic or not.

YouKnowWho just give up. There's none so deaf as those who don't want to hear and Hendrik doesn't want anybody interfering in his fantasy world where anybody who does things even one iota differently from him is wrong.

He is a lost cause. He isn't a fighter, he isn't even a larper. He's just a pedant who tried too hard to conflate his martial practice with his spiritual beliefs and ended up with a confused jumble of self-contradictions.

"Qi isn't magic but it isn't rooted in body mechanics either. Instead it is something you can only know through immediate experience."

Followed by "If you disagree with me you are wrong, you clearly have not had that experience but it transcends words so I can only describe it by couching it in the metaphor of the 'ancients.'"

Considering Xingyi can only be reliably traced back to Dai Longbang (Who died in 1801), unless you buy into the Yue Fei myth - for which we have only third-hand accounts - the style is really only about 250 years old, hardly ancient.

As for Yiquan it is less than a century old.

Ultimately Hendrik's argument is a ham-fisted attempt to shoe-horn martial arts into Ch'an. I say ham-fisted because he's so attached to the underlying premise - that the way IMA generates power is fundamentally different from the way other martial arts generate power and fundamentally superior - that he can't realize that immediate experience, in this case, involves people like you and I training with wrestlers, training with Xingyi sifus, training with other people in general, experiencing how power is generated, how balance works, how a body roots and is unrooted.

You buy the myth that IMA gives you roots that can never be pulled up and then you fear to test it ever because, underneath the attachment you feel to that myth you suspect it is an illusion.

Hendrik is approaching this discussion from a religious position even if that isn't his intent. Arguing with him is as futile as arguing with any other religious zealot.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 09:54 AM

Is an airstrike combat realistic if it takes half an hour to call in?

Maybe that Fajin is a finishing strike that has to be set up right. For example you accept opponent's strike with a block-deflect that also is the compression phase for a counter.

Just guesses here. I'm new on the forum and realize I'm butting in. just curious how people think, I don't know much.

what is fajing? what does CXW explaining?
do one really know? if not then what to think?

what people think, what you think, what I think, it doesnt matter at all. in fact all the think are just ego driven because every one want their 5cents to be heard and praise.

when one cant even shut down one's chatting mind and observe what others do, that is blind.

SPJ

07-07-2011, 09:57 AM

xing yi is still used for club, da dao and bayonet

in chinese army, police, military police

in hk, taiwan, singapore also.

:cool:

SPJ

07-07-2011, 10:00 AM

YiQuanOne

07-07-2011, 10:45 AM

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 10:45 AM

I like wang xi an

he is more plain, to the point, a big school with many students, writing books and compiling notes, nothing showy or flashy.

i collected most of his work/books.

I also like wang pei sheng and his videos, books etc on wu tai ji.

---

these are people of our time.

wang pei sheng just passed away a few years back.

---

I like Wang Pei Sheng too. I like his details and his reveal in medirian vesus motion relationship. a great master who really knows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0DNMElas8

Also, Ma li-Tang who associate with a lots of the old timers, who has worked with lots of internal artist including Wang Xiang Zai of YiQuan to make a summarization on standing stake....

马礼堂
http://baike.baidu.com/view/67463.htm
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4c04eb7d0100bz24.html

without his teaching I would not be able to sit here and typing. that is how much he had help me.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 11:04 AM

He is probably a bit psycho!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVZClxWy0TM&feature=player_embedded

再牢的谎言
却逃不过天眼
明日之前心流离更远

尘世藕断还丝连
回首一瞬间
种颗善因陪你走好每一天

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 11:32 AM

SimonM

07-07-2011, 11:39 AM

I think you should give up, you don't have any real knowledge (put you down) to add to this thread.

Go ask you Sifu why you don't know (put you down the 2nd time). If he don't know (put your teacher down) then we know why you don't know (put you down the 3rd time).

Some people are trying to understand things they might not know (put you down the 4th time).

Instead of drowning in their ignorance (put you down the 5th time).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In one post, he had put you down 5 times and also put your teacher down once. Where else can we find friendly discussion like this?

Pretty much nowhere but the internet. Anywhere else he'd have been stared down, walked out on or punched in the schnoz by this point. But that strategy, refusing to engage in discussion, repeatedly dissing me and my sifu, have made me lose any shreds of respect I might have had for him.

SPJ

07-07-2011, 11:42 AM

in response to YKW:

it is only an internet forum

We are only exchanging viewpoints

from our personal experience (1st reference)

from our learning from a good teacher (2nd reference)

from reading books or viewing videos from good teachers of our time (3rd reference)

from historical writing (4th reference)

from other that are doing the same style/stuff (5th reference)

--

it is only having conversation

--

--

:D

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 11:42 AM

In one post, you had put people down 5 times and also put their teacher down once. Where else can we find friendly discussion like this?

You express your opinion and I express mine. There is no need to attack others and their teachers.

What is the point to pour oil on fire?

back to the xing yi and Yi quan topic.

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 11:45 AM

What is the point to pour oil on fire?

Never get other's teacher involved. This is a big NO NO.

SPJ

07-07-2011, 11:46 AM

Never get other's teacher involved.

respect.

:cool:

SimonM

07-07-2011, 11:50 AM

respect.

:cool:

Um, yeah, absolutely.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 12:09 PM

"Someone" here.

Just a couple of points:

1) Yiquan is less than a century old, hardly ancient.
2) Ancient =/= better.

Furthermore this is just a rehash of the locked dead-horse down the list a ways. We aren't going to get beyond my statement:

Yiquan provides no evidence of combat efficacy, or even whole-body integration in technique. This is unsurprising since Yiquan's primary form of training is standing around doing nothing.

And your counter-statement:

You don't have the real Xingyi because you don't think standing stake has use.

And frankly I'm not interested in either fossils of a centuries old mysticism in fight training nor am I interested in what a sorry hack like Wang Xiangzhai had to say about martial arts because I remain highly dubious of his skill due to his rejection of everything worthwhile about his parent art.

I suspect that part of the problem is that although Guo Yunshen appears to have been a good fighter he doesn't appear to have been a good teacher. He seems to have deliberately contrived to avoid teaching any fighting for as long as possible.

This is an error.

Frankly, considering Guo's reputation for skill at Beng Quan it is clear he understood the value of fight fundamentals. His failure to transmit this value to his most famous students makes me rather sad.

Cue frothing rage that I took a stab at your great-great-great-great-grandmaster now.

respect?

Guo Yin Shen is my sijo , I am from Ma Li-Tang's line.

Wang Xiang-Zai is my elderly.

So, it is this type of posting by some one who think he knows it all proper?

you want justice in the chines way? This is insulting all of my family.

So, practice respect first before demand other to respect you.
You want to speak Wu de?

Is this how your Sifu teaching you?

As for Xing Yi and Yi Quan cultivation you are clueless by facts.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 12:18 PM

Never get other's teacher involved. This is a big NO NO.

You just being bias big time. and using anything for your convenient to stir $hit and cause trouble.

where is your Wude? Take care of that before pointing at others.

SimonM

07-07-2011, 12:26 PM

respect?

Guo Yin Shen is my sijo , I am from Ma Li-Tang's line.

Wang Xiang-Zai is my elderly.

So, it is this type of posting by some one who think he knows it all proper?

you want justice in the chines way? This is insulting all of my family.

So, practice respect first before demand other to respect you.
You want to speak Wu de?

Guo Yunshen is not your sifu. In fact he died before you were born Hendrik unless you are remarkably well preserved. :rolleyes: I criticized a man who died before you were born. Was it a little harsh? Yeah, but since you had started a whole thread to crying about me in the previous thread I figured, what the hell, it's not like it was anybody you actually knew.

Look at it this way: You started a thread complaining about me. That was the purpose of the thread.

Then when I played a little rough in said thread you proceeded to insult myself repeatedly and my sifu.

You screwed up. Because you screwed I have lost all respect for you, and a few other people here have quite rightly chastised you.

I did not go after your Sifu. I criticized the decisions taken by historical figures.

Biiiiiiiiiig difference.

rett

07-07-2011, 12:27 PM

what is fajing? what does CXW explaining?
do one really know? if not then what to think?

what people think, what you think, what I think, it doesnt matter at all. in fact all the think are just ego driven because every one want their 5cents to be heard and praise.

when one cant even shut down one's chatting mind and observe what others do, that is blind.

Thank you. I just got back from 5 day intensive course in Chen Style Taiji. I observe a lot there because I am a beginner, but this is an internet forum. It all looks like chatting to me. How can it be anything else? Just a place to talk.

I don't mind having an ego-driven mind. I know I have that and that this is natural.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 12:33 PM

You insult my Sijo Gou Yin Shen, my sisuk gung Wang Xian Zai.

Insult Xing Yi and Yi Quan and their teaching,
All the previous posts of you are evidence.

you claim you are a Xing Yi follower.

in Chinese your previous posts are
欺师灭祖, 背弃原来的师承祖制. destroying ancestors teaching.

I am happy to meet you sifu showing him all the evidences , (I even love to have the whole Chinese Xing Yi and Yi Quan community knows about your act)

and ask him.

is this how he teaches his students?

Being clueless and airhead on the topic ,

and Talking nonsense to insult our style and lineage ancestors?

So where are you in the line of Xing Yi?
which lineage and where in the family tree to give you all the right to insult ancestors?

Guo Yunshen is not your sifu. In fact he died before you were born Hendrik unless you are remarkably well preserved. :rolleyes: I criticized a man who died before you were born. Was it a little harsh? Yeah, but since you had started a whole thread to crying about me in the previous thread I figured, what the hell, it's not like it was anybody you actually knew.

Look at it this way: You started a thread complaining about me. That was the purpose of the thread.

Then when I played a little rough in said thread you proceeded to insult myself repeatedly and my sifu.

You screwed up. Because you screwed I have lost all respect for you, and a few other people here have quite rightly chastised you.

I did not go after your Sifu. I criticized the decisions taken by historical figures.

Biiiiiiiiiig difference.

rett

07-07-2011, 12:35 PM

xing yi is still used for club, da dao and bayonet

in chinese army, police, military police

in hk, taiwan, singapore also.

:cool:

Police with da dao?:eek:

Scary.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 12:36 PM

Thank you. I just got back from 5 day intensive course in Chen Style Taiji. I observe a lot there because I am a beginner, but this is an internet forum. It all looks like chatting to me. How can it be anything else? Just a place to talk.

I don't mind having an ego-driven mind. I know I have that and that this is natural.

Great! let limit ourselve to technical.

Ok so what is fajing? what is fajing for Chen Taiji? and what is the power generation of Chen taiji?

rett

07-07-2011, 12:45 PM

Great! let limit ourselve to technical.

Ok so what is fajing? what is fajing for Chen Taiji? and what is the power generation of Chen taiji?

We didn't do fajin. The teacher has fajin from baji but at this course the push hands parts focused on something that I don't even know the name of. The idea is more like a pushless push or making yourself a mirror so the other person gets debalanced and starts pushing himself away. Then you can add to that with very small movements or even just by expanding. It wasn't like practicing fighting but more like practicing sensitivity and connection. Basics. Very enjoyable for its own sake.

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 12:50 PM

You just being bias big time. and using anything for your convenient to stir $hit and cause trouble.

where is your Wude? Take care of that before pointing at others.
Do you ever read my post at all. I told you it was published in the 新武侠 magazine (from HK). I still have that old copy. I can even scan that page to you if I'm in Texas at this moment. Do you think that I made that up? I believe the author of that article was 李英昂.

李英昂有著作、影片留世。他的事蹟，我知道不多。

至於人云亦云故事，有多個版本。以下為一些可查資料。

一、據云享年五十八歲。即約 1930-1988（待證）。

（香港武林名師集）

二、李曾跟布學寬（1876—1971）學藝。

布為形意拳車毅齋弟子。車毅齋與郭雲深是師兄弟。布與

王薌齋（1885-1963）為同時期人物。

As far as 郭云深, here is some statement from one of his students.

- My teacher's teacher could spit out a sword from his mouth and kill his enemy 1000 miles away (excellent skill).
- My teacher could spit out a sword from his mouth and kill his enemy 100 feet away (get worse).
- I can spit out a nuts and hit on a tree 10 feet away (get even worse). Since my high blood pressure, I no longer be able to do that (refuse to prove it).

I just can't believe that this is the kind of fairy tales that you believe in. :(

Because those statement will lead TCMA futher away from the "combat reality".

As far as Kou Yin Shen, I just quoted what his student's wrote in one issue of the 新武侠 magazine (from HK).

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 12:52 PM

We didn't do fajin.

The teacher has fajin from baji but at this course the push hands focused on something that I don't even know the name of.

The idea is more like a pushless push or making yourself a mirror so the other person gets debalanced and starts pushing himself away.

Then you can add to that with very small movements or even just by expanding. It wasn't like practicing fighting but more like practicing sensitivity and connection.

Understood.

In my opinion, unless we understand what CXW is teaching in his clip of fajing in the Chen' s way, we cant really critics on it.

CXW is nice enough to openly show the Chen's fajing mechanics. So, unless we know the mechanics we cant just jump in to critics based on our thinking.

not to mention, most of us is not even learning anything about fajing or we could say we are clueless.

my view is one needs to give CXW and Chen family much thanks and appreciation that they show us their treasure.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 01:01 PM

See, you could do anything you like and then say you are just like a parrot that repeat others words.

Cant you use your mind? or you are a parrot?

then

When Yiquanone said something you stir the whole thing up.

You know. to be serious.

Yiquanone have never being in China, he is an American and doesnt know Chinese tradition, so if he makes mistake that is pardon able.

as for you how can you do the same with Yiquanone?

also SimonM who claim he stays in China and know Chinese philosophies.....
his posting is commiting 欺师灭祖 by facts if he is a Xing Yi decendent. if he is not he has just make enermy with all the Xing Yi and Yiquan on what he posted.

I dont bring these up because this is the USA, I close my eye half. so, what is the point? to stir these stuffs up? instead of discuss technical?

QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1112679]Do you ever read my post at all. I told you it was published in the 新武侠 magazine (from HK). I still have that old copy. Do you thing that I made that up?[/QUOTE]

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 01:03 PM

enough of these B$ stuffs,

Let's get into technical facts or else dont post.

rett

07-07-2011, 01:05 PM

CXW is nice enough to openly show the Chen's fajing mechanics. So, unless we know the mechanics we cant just jump in to critics based on our thinking.

Are you referring to me? I didn't criticize that video. Maybe I didn't write clearly enough.

I'm just interested in the question that another poster raised. If certain very powerful strikes are slow to prepare are they combat effective? Too slow for real life? So maybe a good practitioner can set up the strike or even incorporate the set-up into how he receives and deflects the opponent's incoming force? Compress then expand.

Because in the push hands one thing they were drilling, a basic skill, was a lot like that. Accepting the incoming force while sinking and gathering, then expanding in return if you have a connection. It wasn't about striking but the rythm on the video looked similar.

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 01:08 PM

I dont bring these up because this is the USA, I close my eye half. so, what is the point?

I can understand your point and I respect your opinion on this.

SPJ

07-07-2011, 01:14 PM

Are you referring to me? I didn't criticize that video. Maybe I didn't write clearly enough.

I'm just interested in the question that another poster raised. If certain very powerful strikes are slow to prepare are they combat effective? Too slow for real life? So maybe a good practitioner can set up the strike or even incorporate the set-up into how he receives and deflects the opponent's incoming force? Compress then expand.

Because in the push hands one thing they were drilling, a basic skill, was a lot like that. Accepting the incoming force while sinking and gathering, then expanding in return if you have a connection. It wasn't about striking but the rythm on the video looked similar.

2 points

1. CXW showed is called yun qi and yun gong or mobilization your qi or mobilization of your gong. not really to strike anything, but you may feel the power all over the body. the theory is started from dan tian and rotation or spirals outward toward the rest of the body. it would show naturally turing of the spine/waist, shoulder, elbow then arm/wrist.

it is not to strike anything in the air.

2. pushhand basics, 4 fronts and 4 corners, need to practice your stepping and facing toward the 8 directions first

then practice rotation of the waists

then practice the shoulder, elbow and wrist rotations

before any partner work/practice.

:)

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 01:17 PM

Are you referring to me? I didn't criticize that video. Maybe I didn't write clearly enough.

nope , just as general. dont worry.

I'm just interested in the question that another poster raised.

If certain very powerful strikes are slow to prepare are they combat effective?

Too slow for real life?

So maybe a good practitioner can set up the strike or even incorporate the set-up into how he receives and deflects the opponent's incoming force?

Compress then expand.

What this person wrote is problematic because obviously he doesnt know Chen's fajing. that is the reason he comes out with that view.

and also this person fail to understood when CXW does the fajing, CXW's purpose is to show every mechanics clearly and slowly. in real life it is not like that, as CXW said himself, those stuffs with fix posture are just for practicing in the begining. once one get it, one does fajing or explode at any contact point.

if you do a search in CXW's youtube clip long enough you will come to what I am saying here.

Personally, I find, internal martial art is already very difficult to comprehend not to mention if we keep adding our 5Cents which is out of the blue. that will make the art even distorted.

Because in the push hands one thing they were drilling, a basic skill, was a lot like that. Accepting the incoming force while sinking and gathering, then expanding in return if you have a connection. It wasn't about striking but the rythm on the video looked similar.

The bottom line in push hand practice is to practice "follow". That is not the same with fajing practice.

These stuffs are difficult to grasp and complex in its mind-body mechanics even it looks simple, if we dont have a good teacher and spend lots of time with it.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 01:19 PM

I can understand your point and I respect your opinion on this.

No problem.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 01:21 PM

Yes!

This is great!

2 points

1. CXW showed is called yun qi and yun gong or mobilization your qi or mobilization of your gong. not really to strike anything, but you may feel the power all over the body. the theory is started from dan tian and rotation or spirals outward toward the rest of the body. it would show naturally turing of the spine/waist, shoulder, elbow then arm/wrist.

it is not to strike anything in the air.

2. pushhand basics, 4 fronts and 4 corners, need to practice your stepping and facing toward the 8 directions first

then practice rotation of the waists

then practice the shoulder, elbow and wrist rotations

before any partner work/practice.

:)

rett

07-07-2011, 01:26 PM

2 points

Thanks for the helpful info on both points. I've been doing 24-form (not the wushuized version) for about two years with the group, and nei-gong and weekend seminars. When I get invited to try pushhands it's more like being coached by a more advanced student or the teacher; or two beginners trying to find and keep the connection through our joints and into each other's spines (or as far as we can go). No regular systematic training though unfortunately. They keep talking about getting it going again. Hope they do.

rett

07-07-2011, 01:33 PM

in real life it is not like that, as CXW said himself, those stuffs with fix posture are just for practicing in the begining. once one get it, one does fajing or explode at any contact point.

This sounds a lot like something the teacher at the seminar was saying. They wanted us to maintain the kind of structure and connection we felt (or strived to have) from the push hands throughout every point of the form so that in can be carried through movement and be ready anywhere contact is made. It's basic but still too high level for me since I still have tension issues especially around the shoulders. But it's useful to have a clear goal to aim for.

Actually a weird thing... after 5 days pretty intense training it felt like my tension issues in the training were identical with emotional tension issues that concerned my whole life.

Amazing stuff.

SimonM

07-07-2011, 03:07 PM

S facts if he is a Xing Yi decendent. if he is not he has just make enermy with all the Xing Yi and Yiquan on what he posted.

You have certainly gone out of your way to make an enemy of me.

Scott R. Brown

07-07-2011, 03:11 PM

You have certainly gone out of your way to make an enemy of me.

No, he does that to everyone who doesn't drink his koolade!

Like I said before, he is psycho, and has very poor social skills!

YiQuanOne

07-07-2011, 03:11 PM

You have certainly gone out of your way to make an enemy of me.

Who cares, you don't have anything of value to post!

Scott R. Brown

07-07-2011, 03:50 PM

Who cares, you don't have anything of value to post!

What is not of value for one person may be of value to another! I find little value in what you or Hendrik post, although you are likable and Hendrik is just a jerk with psychological problems and an inability to reason!

Both of you guys seem to think that those of us who don't agree with you cannot understand because we haven't "this or that" and only if we had "this or that" we would understand just like you do!

And when we say, "Yes, we have 'this or that" and many times!", you rationalize our comments in order to invalidate them in your own minds!

It is okay to disagree and it is from being challenged that we are given the opportunity to examine and re-examine our experiences and the conclusions we have drawn from them.

So, if for no other reason, SimonM and people like myself and YouKnowWho, etc, provide a service/benefit for you, and people like you, and a counter balance to people like Hendrik.

The measure of your marital arts is its ability to accomplish what your goal for it is, for some this is self defense, for others it is self-realization, for others it is fitness. The same thing applies to being being intellectually challenged! It influences individuals to reflect and examine their presumptions and conclusions about their experiences. What they choose to do with it is up to them, but without it, if all we did was surround ourselves with "Yes" people, we would not learn much outside of our own little fantasy worlds!

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 03:54 PM

Actually a weird thing... after 5 days pretty intense training it felt like my tension issues in the training were identical with emotional tension issues that concerned my whole life.

Amazing stuff.

mind and body are a coin with two faces. there are lots of things we dont know about our body. so, the training of quiet our mind is very good one for our body to speak to us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuQL_9OS0uo

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 03:57 PM

Who cares, you don't have anything of value to post!

let's focus in only technical discussion and ignore all other stuffs.

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 04:03 PM

let's focus in only technical discussion and ignore all other stuffs.

I just don't think technical discussion without reference the word "opponent" can have any value. After all, TCMA cannot be trained "solo".

Scott R. Brown

07-07-2011, 04:04 PM

let's focus in only technical discussion and ignore all other stuffs.

Let's just be "yes" men to each other and not allow ourselves to be challenged in any way or have to demonstrate the efficacy or validity of what we say! That way we can stay in our own little rainbow robotic mind's fantasyland!

Lets quote obscure Chinese texts because they are the ONLY authority even though they were written before science advanced to the stage where we can demonstrate and/or invalidate everything they claim using the established laws of physics and biomechanics!

And while we are blindly following the ancient teachings lets take some mercury pills in order to prolong our lives and sustain our vitality!

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 04:11 PM

A: In "combat", you need to ...
B: If you have "no mind", you can ...
A: Not sure I understand what you are talking about here.
B: You are talking about low level "self-defense" and I'm talking about high level "self cultivation".
A: :confused:

This is what I'll call, "a chicken talks to a duck".

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 04:16 PM

I just don't think technical discussion without reference the word "opponent" can have any value. After all, TCMA cannot be trained "solo".

Some how you have a believe that TCMA is train "solo" I have no idea where you get that from.

you also deny the TCMA kung cultivation part. That too I have no idea where you get that from.

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 04:20 PM

Some how you have a believe that TCMA is train "solo" I have no idea where you get that from.
From your own statement. Where is the word "opponent" in your statement?

mind and body are a coin with two faces. there are lots of things we dont know about our body. so, the training of quiet our mind is very good one for our body to speak to us.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 04:28 PM

From your own statement. Where is the word "opponent" in your statement?

The Chinese ancestor is using a Non-dual attitude.

Harmony means there is no you or me but one or Non-dual.

天人合一 heaven and human are non dual.

Even in Wing Chun ultimate, it says

Comes accept, Goes return, release and move forward, using silence to lead action.

No opponent word but it include every one.

you could travel your path. however, there are other paths.

Scott R. Brown

07-07-2011, 04:30 PM

Some how you have a believe that TCMA is train "solo" I have no idea where you get that from.

you also deny the TCMA kung cultivation part. That too I have no idea where you get that from.

That is because of your tendency to re-interpret what others are saying!

His thesis is very simple EVEN I UNDERSTAND IT!

1) MA are for fighting and winning against others.

2) If you do not train/test yourself against others, you cannot say you are skilled in the MA.

3) Standing post is not a partnered exercise and you have not demonstrated how it benefits one in a fight, you have only quoted obscure Chinese texts with fantasy claims!

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 04:38 PM

The Chinese ancestor is using a Non-dual attitude.
We are "fighting" for our right to live, to exist...

- 人与天爭 We fight against the nature.
- 人与兽爭 We then fight against animals.
- 人与人爭 We finally fight against other human being.
- 人与外星人爭 One day we will fight against alien who invade our planet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUdB8gCMcXI

Lucas

07-07-2011, 04:49 PM

when the aliens come next year they will feel what a sword in the gut is like. and then they will blast me with plasma guns. it will be a good death.

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 04:59 PM

We are fighting for our right to live, to exist...

- 人与天爭 We fight against the nature.
- 人与兽爭 We then fight against animals.
- 人与人爭 We finally fight against other human being.
- 人与外星人爭 One day we will fight against alien who invade our planet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUdB8gCMcXI

That is your way you want to go that way, that is fine with me.

However, with Internal Chinese martial art which is the Daoist way. one needs to based on what is the fact.

The following is Dao De ching chapter 8.

上善若水。水善利万物，又不争。

处众人之所恶，故几于道。居善地，心善渊，与善人，言善信，政善治，事善能，动善时。

夫唯不争，故无尤

Chapter 8

The highest goodness resembles water
Water greatly benefits myriad things without contention
It stays in places that people dislike
Therefore it is similar to the Tao

Dwelling with the right location
Feeling with great depth
Giving with great kindness
Speaking with great integrity
Governing with great administration
Handling with great capability
Moving with great timing

Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach

YiQuanOne

07-07-2011, 05:06 PM

Everything has Yin and Yang, the standing meditation is the cultivation of Yin, in the body and Yin of the mind.

Yang changes to Yin and Yin changes to Yang. Everything has a balance and is always changeing.

We need the Yang to balance the Yin, but if to much Yang, you are out of balance.
Yang is easy part to work on, most training does not include Yin part.

Yang against Yang, stronger Yang win, you always want Yin to be next to Yang if you are not stronger.

So in opponent practice you practice not to put Yang next to Yang, so you need to have Yin meet Yang so you can neutralize opponent.

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 05:12 PM

the Daoist way.
Fight, you may die, run, you live, at least for a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin’ to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they’ll never take… OUR FREEDOM!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLrrBs8JBQo&feature=related

Hendrik

07-07-2011, 05:17 PM

Fight, you may die, run, you live, at least for a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin’ to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they’ll never take… OUR FREEDOM!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLrrBs8JBQo&feature=related

again, this is your way not the ancestors Daoist way.

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 05:23 PM

Everything has Yin and Yang,

- Attack 3 times with your solo move (100% Yang), if you fail
- Borrow your opponent's force and attack with your combo 3 times (50% Yin and 50% Yang), if fail
- Play with defense (100% Yin), if still fail
- Put your tail between your legs and run like hell.

You always start with Yang and end with Yin but not the other way around.

You only borrow money from the bank if you don't have enough in your saving account. It's always good try to save as much money as you can.

Scott R. Brown

07-07-2011, 05:32 PM

YiQuanOne

07-07-2011, 05:37 PM

SPJ

07-07-2011, 06:20 PM

- Attack 3 times with your solo move (100% Yang), if you fail
- Borrow your opponent's force and attack with your combo 3 times (50% Yin and 50% Yang), if fail
- Play with defense (100% Yin), if still fail
- Put your tail between your legs and run like hell.

You always start with Yang and end with Yin but not the other way around.

You only borrow money from the bank if you don't have enough in your saving account. It's always good try to save as much money as you can.

i think all agree that fight with minimal effort or win without fight.

yes it all depending on the opponent

if you are strong, and the opponent is weak. no need to fight, b/c everyone knows that you will win.

if you are almost equal with your opponent, that is where you try to outmaneuver the opponent with timing and space, a lot of yin and yang going.

if you are weak and the opponent is strong, yes we run

if you have the green mountain with trees, you will always have fire wood to burn

save your strength and fight another day especially when the opponent is somehow weak at a particular moment and place.

---

SPJ

07-07-2011, 06:23 PM

We are "fighting" for our right to live, to exist...

- 人与天爭 We fight against the nature.
- 人与兽爭 We then fight against animals.
- 人与人爭 We finally fight against other human being.
- 人与外星人爭 One day we will fight against alien who invade our planet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUdB8gCMcXI

yes talking about evolution of human history on this planet.

me love the myth and movie of "battle of LA during ww ii"

:)

YouKnowWho

07-07-2011, 06:30 PM

contact with opponent and neutralizing his attack.

Neutralize your opponent's attack = borrow your opponent's force to against him

Scott R. Brown

07-07-2011, 07:33 PM

when the aliens come next year they will feel what a sword in the gut is like. and then they will blast me with plasma guns. it will be a good death.

You will be missed and we will avenge your death by quoting ancient chinese aphorisms we don't understand?

Scott R. Brown

07-07-2011, 07:49 PM

The following is Dao De ching chapter 8.

上善若水。水善利万物，又不争。

处众人之所恶，故几于道。居善地，心善渊，与善人，言善信，政善治，事善能，动善时。

夫唯不争，故无尤

Chapter 8

The highest goodness resembles water
Water greatly benefits myriad things without contention....

Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach

For example:

The idea/principle that water does not contend is false! It is an artificial construct created and agreed upon by those with an investment in it being true even though it can be demonstrated that it is clearlly false, at least in some instances!

Crashing waves? Water contending with the shore!

Tidal wave? Water contending with the shore and everything in its path!

Rough seas? Water contending with ships!

Waterfalls? Water contending with rocks and river floor!

Water cannon? Water contending with the target!

Fire hose? Water contending with fire!

Flooding river? Water contending with everything in its path!

Water that finds the lowest level and just sits there stagnates and breeds disease!

Steam, a form of water will singe the skin right off your face!

Water has good and bad qualities that may benefit AND harm, if one wishes to emulate water can they ignore its harmful effects and call themselves followers of Tao?

If one blindly accepts aphorisms, no matter their antiquity, and refuses to think for themeselves and question them, they are trapped by their own foolish ignorance!

Miqi

07-08-2011, 11:32 AM

Hello, I actually do practise yiquan - I've been a practitioner for around ten years, and I have a much longer histroy in Chinese martial arts. I'm not the greatest yiquan guy in the world - I'm just an amatuer practitioner, like most people on this forum I guess - but I'm happy to make a few comments, and clear a few things up.

Firstly, there are lots of people who use the name 'yiquan'. Many, I suspect, wouldn't actually agree with a lot of the things Wang Xiang Zhai and his senior students and descendants said or say. Zhao Dao Xin, for example, would clearly - explcitly - have been on the side of the doubters in this debate. What one finds is that 'yiquan' people, when finding that out, tend to excommuniucate senior yiquan masters - even Wang himself. How far that is credible, I'm not sure.

Firstly, Wang lost interest in the idea of 'qi'. Some practitioners, however, including some of his students, retain the idea. 'Qi' has a complex relationship with Chinese martial arts thinking. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter how you describe what you do - the description won't affect the truth of what people can or can not actually do.

Secondly, although 'internal' is used now to describe yiquan, even for example by the Yao brothers, their father and Wang didn't use this idea. Wang famously said that he didn't know what it meant.

Thirdly, Yao Zong Xun didn't believe that old wushu masters performed amazing tricks of making people flay away with a light touch. Videos of master Yao clearly show that he himself couldn't do anything like that, and yet he is regarded as one of Wang's top students. People who do show videos of that must, therefore, have a massively higher level than old Yao. That could be - but it's beyond my understanding, and I find more use in Yao's descriptions and performances. Master Yao actually said, more than once, that old Chinese wushu was much more like Thai boxing than, for example, tai chi.

Fourthly, Wang wrote at a time when 'science' and applying science to everything was the dominant idea. Rightly or wrongly, he wanted to apply science to martial arts. To a certain extent, that's valid I think - and the result, in sport, is partly stuff like MMA, which far from being oppositeor contrary to yiquan is fully in line with the original ideas and ambitions of yiquan theory. However, what Wang did want was scientific discourse - peer review, open questioning, research. What he, and students like Yao and Zhao Dao Xin clearly - explicitly - wanted was for people to question both yiquan and other arts, and for those questions to be broached scientifically - i.e. honestly and impersonally. The key word their is impersonally. The 'facts' of fighting training can't be bullied, threatened or insulted in to being true. I'm sorry that some 'yiquan' people do that, but, their approach to yiquan isn't what I recognise as the yiquan Wang and his students talked about.

All that being said, there is no reason why any yiquan person - or even MMA fighter - shouldn't use the paradigms of 'qi' or 'internal' - these are just descriptions. What matters is what they describe - i.e. the actual abilities, events and skill sets.

If I can, I'll be happy to answer some questions, as far as I'm able, on yiquan theory - but without insulting people. I'm afraid I don't know any secrets of the ancients!

Hendrik

07-08-2011, 12:24 PM

If I can, I'll be happy to answer some questions, as far as I'm able, on yiquan theory - but without insulting people. I'm afraid I don't know any secrets of the ancients!

Great!

Could you please share and elaborate six directional force and Hun Yan Li practice?

how to issue spiral li ?

also, do you do the four dances?

Thanks!

Miqi

07-08-2011, 01:23 PM

Great!

Could you please share and elaborate six directional force and Hun Yan Li practice?

how to issue spiral li ?

also, do you do the four dances?

Thanks!

Hello Hendrick, thanks for your question.

Learning yiquan is extremely physical, but there are also some ideas that need to be wrestled with. The first is how to 'disappoint expectations'. Wang talked about this, when he mentioned letting go of fantasies of the past, to see that the real martial art was actually much more down to Earth - and therefore, achievable.

In the same sense, 'hunyuan li' and 'omnidirectional force' tend to 'appoint' over bolwn expectation in people who don't have the physical experience of them. Once that happens, there's almost no stopping the fantasy expectations - and people are literally 'dis-appointed' when they find out the truth; they feel like 'oh that? It's just that?' And people actually become quite hostile to protect their expectations from being disappointed.

Actually, hunyuan li and omnidirectional force are perfectly down to earth physical things. From zhan zhuang, for example 'tree hugging', after a few minutes of relaxation if you 'squeeze' gently, you will feel a resistance. Some people feel that this is qi - especially if it is accompanied by tingling from blood draining away from the hands. Maybe that is what qi is.

What is happening with that 'resistance' feeling is an interesting area of speculation. However, what is not open to speculation - what is open to anyone finding out - is that that feeling of resistance can be significantly intensified - especially when combined with imagination and visualisation.

From squeezing in, you can then push out, and feel the same feeling. This is entirely physical, but there's no reason why we can't describe in the qi paradigm if we so choose. After some time, one can create this feeling all over the body - with the whole body, for example pushing back, or up. At times, rather counter-intuitively, one can feel this force in opposite directions - for example as though you were pushing out and pulling back. This is, I believe, because the brain is firing the nerves that initiate both movements. The hardest thing to get is that as the feeling intensifies, you have to relax in to it, to make it more intense - which seems counter intuitive. The feeling you feel is 'hunyuan li'. It is very disappointing I know. That's a really good step, though - it brings 'legendary' skills firmly in the ordinary realm, and yiu realise that Wang and other were always talking about this feeling. Yao Zing Xun, for example, explians this process extremely clearly, as do his sons in various articles.

'Omnidirectional force' has two possible meanings. One, is that you can extend this feeling in multiple directions - for example 'playing' with the feeling by pushing out, in, up down - which, if you look carefully at peope doing zhan zhuang is often what they are imperceptibly doing. 'Shi li' or slow movement is just an extension of this feeling in to bigger movements.

The second meaning is the odd, already mentioned feeling of having hunyuan li simultaneously in more than one direction.

'Spiral li' is, similarly, something to be disappointed. To use whole body force requires a number of different ways of using the body. To push forwards with both hands, for example, uses a different kind of movement to a yiquan jab - it has to, for obvious reasons of body mechanics. To twist each part of the body in to a punch can be - and is - described as a spiralling movement, but it's nothing particularly unusual once learned - it's still useless without the ability to throw combinations, defend, etc.

Yiquan 'fight' and 'health' dance are aspects of the same thing, and these two in themselves may vary anywhere from pure free movement with no martial application, through to pure, boxing style shadow boxing.

Yiquan and has many and varied different aspects, some applicable to specific schools, some to specific individuals - not everyone does everything, and even the ideas and methods of the founders are constantly open to review and change.

Clearly, this way of presenting yiquan is disappointing. It involves no qi, and no scope for mysterious powers. And yet, on the upside, once your expectations are disappointed, you suddenly realise that what was once only a legendary power is now fully within your capability.

Scott R. Brown

07-08-2011, 03:27 PM

Nicely put miqi, thank you for your contribution. It was very interesting and informative!

Hendrik

07-08-2011, 05:09 PM

Thank you for sharing!

You post is great!

The second meaning is the odd, already mentioned feeling of having hunyuan li simultaneously in more than one direction.

Yup, those who know will recognize it. those who tense and keep thinking will not be able to imagine.

'Spiral li' is, similarly, something to be disappointed. To use whole body force requires a number of different ways of using the body. To push forwards with both hands, for example, uses a different kind of movement to a yiquan jab - it has to, for obvious reasons of body mechanics. To twist each part of the body in to a punch can be - and is - described as a spiralling movement, but it's nothing particularly unusual once learned - it's still useless without the ability to throw combinations, defend, etc.

I would say the word "disappointed" is might not be proper. That is because it is to recognize it is what it is. and to recognize what one's has never recognize before itself is a progress already.

I am not a Yiquan player but a Wing Chuner, I think the spiral li is much important then the combination. without the spiral li, the combination is just general combination that every one does --- based on muscular power mostly.

Spiral li, with or without combination will explode at any point of contact. so, one doesnt even have a to have a combination but let go let God be, where every the continous of contact be that is where it cuts in, just flow with it. saying this the assumption is that one really needs to have the spiral li master otherwise it will not work.

Clearly, this way of presenting yiquan is disappointing. It involves no qi, and no scope for mysterious powers.

And yet, on the upside, once your expectations are disappointed, you suddenly realise that what was once only a legendary power is now fully within your capability.

Again, I think disappointing is not a proper words because most people, even if they do Taiji or ZZ or ..... doesnt really know what is one cultivating. not to mention those who does solid muscle tensing training such as Karate, Boxing...Hung Gar....

Qi certainly involve as an element but it is certainly nothing mysterious.

also, view things differently, with "once your expectations are disappointed, you suddenly realise that what was once...... is fully within your capability"

that is because if one doesnt have a sifu to coach one, one will never get there even if one's expectations are disappointed 10000X.

on the contradiction, when one recognize and cultivate it and master it. it is many X beyond's one's expectation because it open up another dimension for one to play.

and, in my opinion, unless one get to the level of recognize it, one cant discuss about it because the mind just doesnt know.

Thanks again for your patient write up.

YiQuanOne

07-08-2011, 05:45 PM

Hello Hendrick, thanks for your question.

Learning yiquan is extremely physical, but there are also some ideas that need to be wrestled with. The first is how to 'disappoint expectations'. Wang talked about this, when he mentioned letting go of fantasies of the past, to see that the real martial art was actually much more down to Earth - and therefore, achievable.

In the same sense, 'hunyuan li' and 'omnidirectional force' tend to 'appoint' over bolwn expectation in people who don't have the physical experience of them. Once that happens, there's almost no stopping the fantasy expectations - and people are literally 'dis-appointed' when they find out the truth; they feel like 'oh that? It's just that?' And people actually become quite hostile to protect their expectations from being disappointed.

Actually, hunyuan li and omnidirectional force are perfectly down to earth physical things. From zhan zhuang, for example 'tree hugging', after a few minutes of relaxation if you 'squeeze' gently, you will feel a resistance. Some people feel that this is qi - especially if it is accompanied by tingling from blood draining away from the hands. Maybe that is what qi is.

What is happening with that 'resistance' feeling is an interesting area of speculation. However, what is not open to speculation - what is open to anyone finding out - is that that feeling of resistance can be significantly intensified - especially when combined with imagination and visualisation.

From squeezing in, you can then push out, and feel the same feeling. This is entirely physical, but there's no reason why we can't describe in the qi paradigm if we so choose. After some time, one can create this feeling all over the body - with the whole body, for example pushing back, or up. At times, rather counter-intuitively, one can feel this force in opposite directions - for example as though you were pushing out and pulling back. This is, I believe, because the brain is firing the nerves that initiate both movements. The hardest thing to get is that as the feeling intensifies, you have to relax in to it, to make it more intense - which seems counter intuitive. The feeling you feel is 'hunyuan li'. It is very disappointing I know. That's a really good step, though - it brings 'legendary' skills firmly in the ordinary realm, and yiu realise that Wang and other were always talking about this feeling. Yao Zing Xun, for example, explians this process extremely clearly, as do his sons in various articles.

'Omnidirectional force' has two possible meanings. One, is that you can extend this feeling in multiple directions - for example 'playing' with the feeling by pushing out, in, up down - which, if you look carefully at peope doing zhan zhuang is often what they are imperceptibly doing. 'Shi li' or slow movement is just an extension of this feeling in to bigger movements.

The second meaning is the odd, already mentioned feeling of having hunyuan li simultaneously in more than one direction.

'Spiral li' is, similarly, something to be disappointed. To use whole body force requires a number of different ways of using the body. To push forwards with both hands, for example, uses a different kind of movement to a yiquan jab - it has to, for obvious reasons of body mechanics. To twist each part of the body in to a punch can be - and is - described as a spiralling movement, but it's nothing particularly unusual once learned - it's still useless without the ability to throw combinations, defend, etc.

Yiquan 'fight' and 'health' dance are aspects of the same thing, and these two in themselves may vary anywhere from pure free movement with no martial application, through to pure, boxing style shadow boxing.

Yiquan and has many and varied different aspects, some applicable to specific schools, some to specific individuals - not everyone does everything, and even the ideas and methods of the founders are constantly open to review and change.

Clearly, this way of presenting yiquan is disappointing. It involves no qi, and no scope for mysterious powers. And yet, on the upside, once your expectations are disappointed, you suddenly realise that what was once only a legendary power is now fully within your capability.

Sounds like you did some standing but was not able to attain the movement of the Qi, using the mind Yi, because if you did you would realize that it is beyond your expectations and that it is not in the grasp of other people.

I know a lot of people that did standing for 10 years and did not get anything from it, they were doing it wrong, when corrected they had results in no time.

If your teacher does not have results, it is likely you will not either.

If you have no teacher and try to do it from books, you will probably never reach a usable level in a short time.

Hendrik

07-08-2011, 06:27 PM

rett

07-09-2011, 01:12 AM

For example:

The idea/principle that water does not contend is false! It is an artificial construct created and agreed upon by those with an investment in it being true even though it can be demonstrated that it is clearlly false, at least in some instances!

Crashing waves? Water contending with the shore!

It's a metaphor or an analogy. You can break any analogy if you push it further than the point it's trying to elucidate.

If you look at how water moves and get a feeling from that, this sort of feeling can be a way to understand the idea of a way of moving or of a mental attitude. That's what a metaphor like that is for, not to prove some categorical statements about the physics of water.

I'd think that the points you bring up about water contending are good analogies too. Soft arts where you try to be like water can still focus this softness into destructive power.

Miqi

07-09-2011, 02:48 AM

Sounds like you did some standing but was not able to attain the movement of the Qi, using the mind Yi, because if you did you would realize that it is beyond your expectations and that it is not in the grasp of other people.

I know a lot of people that did standing for 10 years and did not get anything from it, they were doing it wrong, when corrected they had results in no time.

If your teacher does not have results, it is likely you will not either.

If you have no teacher and try to do it from books, you will probably never reach a usable level in a short time.

Sounds like you did some standing but was not able to attain the movement of the Qi, using the mind Yi, because if you did you would realize that it is beyond your expectations and that it is not in the grasp of other people.

I know a lot of people that did standing for 10 years and did not get anything from it, they were doing it wrong, when corrected they had results in no time.

If your teacher does not have results, it is likely you will not either.

If you have no teacher and try to do it from books, you will probably never reach a usable level in a short time.

Hi Yiquanone, thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, Wang Zhang Zhai, Yao Zong Xun, for example, didn't believe use the concept of 'qi' in their yiquan training. So what you're saying here is that Wang and Yao didn't really know yiquan. Which simply isn't credible.

This is what I mean when I say that to continue to believe what you 'think' yiquan is, you have to excommunicate senior yiquan masters. Now we have the situation where the actual descriptions and methods used by real yiquan people, including me, are rejected by you, because they don't fit the 'expectations' which you've appointed about yiquan.

This creates a process of continually inflating and misinterpreting perfectly down to earth sports concepts in to mystical super powers which no one actually has within yiquan. Then when no one lives up to those expectations, you think 'you're not the real yiquan!' - because you're expecting something so much more than it really is.

Wanting real knowledge of yiquan is a dis-appointing process. The second mental tool one learns is that many things in Chinese martial arts are actually the reverse of what they appear to be. The 'amazing mystical concepts' actually refer to perfectly ordinary physiological processes.

Most amusing of all, the process of zhan zhuang, which so many people pridefully convince themselves is attracting qi to them, every day making them more and more powerful, propelling them furhter and further beyond the ordinary people with every second of standing, is actually just a process of remedial training for people whose bodies are effectively crippled by lazy use (This is the theory - I'm not saying, personally, that people are crippled - except in the sense of people who do no exercise aren't using their bodies as functionally well as people who do. This is simply the idea of zhan zhuang). Far from elevating you from the ordinary, zhan zhuang is an extremely basic exercise, designed to help people better learn how to use their body properly. There is no reason why that can't be said to be involving qi - but there is also no way that it is anything but a basic training exercise to prevent our bodies from slipping further in to 'every day atrophy'.

The idea of yiquan which you present is simply an expectation. We've all been there. It's what attracted us to yiquan in the first place. But then yiquan becomes a filter, to separate those who want the real Chinese martial arts and fighting knowledge from those who actually, if they're honest, were looking for something else.

Miqi

07-09-2011, 03:18 AM

Thank you for sharing!

You post is great!

You're very welcome, Hendrik.

I would say the word "disappointed" is might not be proper. That is because it is to recognize it is what it is. and to recognize what one's has never recognize before itself is a progress already.

The process of 'dis-appointing', as I use it, is not necessarily specfic to yiquan of course. Martial arts in general has a mystique - but even in life generally, we tend to appoint expectations, for example, that politicians really know a lot about economics and how to run countries, or that people operating oil wells really have all safety procedures under control. Only too often are we forced to 'dis-appoint' our expectations!

Everyone who comes to martial arts has some expectations, I think - we're full of movies and tales of heros, and if we're honest, our own fears and senses of wanting to be able to look after ourselves, or even be cool.

Then you get smacked in the face. Or you find out that your coach, who you thought was a saint, has been touching up kids - or some other thing! At times like that we realise just how many expectations we really do appoint about things and people.

I am not a Yiquan player but a Wing Chuner, I think the spiral li is much important then the combination. without the spiral li, the combination is just general combination that every one does --- based on muscular power mostly.

In one sense, without the yiquan body mechanic then obviously there's not much point in calling it yiquan - so of course. In another, extremely important sense, 'fight science' is the biggest part of yiquan; i.e. actual practical ability to throw punches and combinations, to be take a kick to the leg, to actually train for fighting in every modern sense.

Yiquan is curious and holistic. To elevate one element over the others unbalances it sometimes - for example, some people do massive amounts of zhan zhuang, but have fallen way behind in sports science. It doesn't matter how powerful you are if youlose the courage to spar, or can't take even one kick to the thigh. Reactions, courage and technical ability soon go without regular fight training. I know - as many people do - that this is true from direct experience.

In short, fight training is an essential aspect of yiquan. It only disappears fromt he curriculum when people say that it's possible to make other just fly away with a light touch. If the latter is possible, then there seems to be no need for fight training, and all of a sudden doing zhan zhuang for three hours becomes 'all that is necessary'. This latter concept is beyond my understanding, I'm afraid.

Spiral li, with or without combination will explode at any point of contact. so, one doesnt even have a to have a combination but let go let God be, where every the continous of contact be that is where it cuts in, just flow with it. saying this the assumption is that one really needs to have the spiral li master otherwise it will not work.

I'm glad you mentioned this. The ability to 'issue force' in any direction is an idea which also requires some disappointing. First of all, the 'expectation' is that with a light movement of fa li from any point of the body another person can be made to fly away.

Searching for this skill usually requires forgetting about realistic fight training. The reality is that 'issuing force' is just the ability to issue short, sharp movements. In yiquan theory, the 'from any part of the body' must be seen in the context of 'as opposed to concentrating only on specific punches, kicks etc.' It refers to the yiquan concept that techniques are superficial in the sense that what really matters is shen fa or body movement. In theory, by developing correct body movement then you can use any part of the body as a weapon. How much damage that weapon will do is another story.

Using whole body force is just an acquired skill which comes in time. Unfortunately, this has become so over-blown in terms of expectations that I think few yiquan people now feel comfortable showing their actual level due to serious levels of disappointment which may follow! I think this is why you can't find a youtube video of any yiquan guy hitting a punch bag full contact with yiquan techniques - people's expectatiosn are so high that people who don't like yiquan will say 'well that's no more powerful than boxing' while people like Yiquanone will be expecting so much more - i.e. the bag bursting from its chains and going through the wall - that their minds simply will not accept the reality of yiquan, and instead insist on the expected version.

Again, I think disappointing is not a proper words because most people, even if they do Taiji or ZZ or ..... doesnt really know what is one cultivating. not to mention those who does solid muscle tensing training such as Karate, Boxing...Hung Gar....

Qi certainly involve as an element but it is certainly nothing mysterious.

also, view things differently, with "once your expectations are disappointed, you suddenly realise that what was once...... is fully within your capability"

that is because if one doesnt have a sifu to coach one, one will never get there even if one's expectations are disappointed 10000X.

on the contradiction, when one recognize and cultivate it and master it. it is many X beyond's one's expectation because it open up another dimension for one to play.

and, in my opinion, unless one get to the level of recognize it, one cant discuss about it because the mind just doesnt know.

Thanks again for your patient write up.

This issue of with or without a coach is interesting to me. My opinion is the same as Wang's - that as yiquan is 'natural', it's essential elements can be intuited by someone on their own - but to take that through in to a full level of yiquan, that would have to be a natural genius of yiquan.

Kenichi Sawai said that people can learn from a photograph. I think, a great deal can be learned on your own, from videos, from words - sometimes just one idea someone tells you can open the door to a higher level. However, learning technical skills - especially fight skills - pretty much requires, as we all know, a good coach.

So always 'yes and no' - a good coach can really help you, but ultimately, yiquan, if it is what it says it is, can not be either learned or taught - it can only be intuitively unfolded under guidance; because ultimately, the essence of yiquan is you - which is probably the most profound 'secret'of yiquan, in my view - and takes a long time to understand.

Scott R. Brown

07-09-2011, 03:59 AM

It's a metaphor or an analogy. You can break any analogy if you push it further than the point it's trying to elucidate.

If you look at how water moves and get a feeling from that, this sort of feeling can be a way to understand the idea of a way of moving or of a mental attitude. That's what a metaphor like that is for, not to prove some categorical statements about the physics of water.

I'd think that the points you bring up about water contending are good analogies too. Soft arts where you try to be like water can still focus this softness into destructive power.

I think its important to remember that all phenomena have Yin & Yang properties. There is a time to flow like water and a time to crash like a wave. If one believes humans should behave like water, then they must understand water in all its manifestations and learn when and where to emulate a specific property of water according to what is more appropriate at the time.

Blind acceptance of what Lao Tzu wrote 2,500 years ago, or what the hippy generation inaccurately promoted encourages our own ignorance. One should question and understand principles of Tao independently of ancient teachings and their modern interpretations. If they are indeed true principles they will stand the test of questioning and ones knowing will be firsthand and according to direct experience rather than blind adherence to questionable teachings without real understanding.

One may understand, and be an expert of what Lao Tzu wrote, or they may understand the principles of Tao independently, firsthand. One who undertsands firsthand has no need of Lao Tzu!

It is like one person reading what someone else has written concerning the taste of an orange compared to someone who has actually tasted an orange. The first person can only be an expert on what "another person wrote" about the taste of an orange, while the second person is an expert on the actual taste of an orange! Whose authority is the greater? In most cases it is the one with the direct experience, although that does not automatically follow in all cases. Afterall, having an experience and understanding it may be two different things. However, the direct experience brings with it a truth the one who only reads will NEVER understand! While the direct experiencer may come to understand his experiences later, the reader's expertise is ALWAYS incomplete until he directly experiences for himself.

And even then his experiences will be colored by his "presumed" expertise and his interpretation of the writers experiences!

If you have all the time in the world you may want to have the patience of water gently lapping at the shore and slowly wear it away, but there are times when a good stick of dynamite can accomplish in an afternoon what water will take centuries to accomplish. Which is "better" is determined by context!

So, sometimes it is more beneficial to flow like water, other times to crash like a wave and still other times to explode like dynamite. Wisdom is knowing which is most efficient under what circumstances.
________

When the cat's away, the mice will play!

Absence makes the heart grow fonder!

Both true or false according to context!;)

YiQuanOne

07-09-2011, 08:21 AM

Using whole body force is just an acquired skill which comes in time. Unfortunately, this has become so over-blown in terms of expectations that I think few yiquan people now feel comfortable showing their actual level due to serious levels of disappointment which may follow! I think this is why you can't find a youtube video of any yiquan guy hitting a punch bag full contact with yiquan techniques - people's expectatiosn are so high that people who don't like yiquan will say 'well that's no more powerful than boxing' while people like Yiquanone will be expecting so much more - i.e. the bag bursting from its chains and going through the wall - that their minds simply will not accept the reality of yiquan, and instead insist on the expected version.

My expectation has nothing to do with super exploding power. It is more like having energy that is not recognizable to the opponent, and having a stability that the opponent can not comprehend or move or use using external energy.

Like the saying "I know him but he does not know me".

I don't practice "yiquan" like the yiquan guys, but use the name as my handle just to mean internal energy.

I also use WingChun and Tai Chi as tools to find myself.

There is also a saying, " you need to find yourself before you find your opponent"
if you don't know yourself you can't know your opponent

I like this guy as an example of good application
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK8qOXmzNY8&feature=player_detailpage

Miqi

07-09-2011, 08:44 AM

.

My expectation has nothing to do with super exploding power. It is more like having energy that is not recognizable to the opponent, and having a stability that the opponent can not comprehend or move or use using external energy.

Like the saying "I know him but he does not know me".

I don't practice "yiquan" like the yiquan guys, but use the name as my handle just to mean internal energy.

I also use WingChun and Tai Chi as tools to find myself.

I think, then, that we've come a long way - in that we're fairly clear now that you don't practice 'yiquan' in the sense of the art created by Wang Xiang Zhai.

.
There is also a saying, " you need to find yourself before you find your opponent"
if you don't know yourself you can't know your opponent

I think that this is important as well, but not in the way you mean it. One of the real meanings of 'wu de' is to be honest - but to be honest with ourselves is surprisingly hard. Have you ever stopped and truly asked yourself 'why am I training?'

YiQuanOne

07-09-2011, 08:55 AM

[QUOTE=Miqi;1113073]I think, then, that we've come a long way - in that we're fairly clear now that you don't practice 'yiquan' in the sense of the art created by Wang Xiang Zhai.
From what I have read Wang did not want it to be a system, he did not even want a name on it.

It is just another tool to help you build your house.

If you treat it as something else, it would like using a boat to cross a river, and then wanting to carry the boat with you after you crossed the river. It just helps you get to the next level, like a finger pointing at the moon, don't dwell on the finger.

Scott R. Brown

07-09-2011, 09:20 AM

Hendrik

07-09-2011, 09:38 AM

The process of 'dis-appointing', as I use it, is not necessarily specfic to yiquan of course. Martial arts in general has a mystique - but even in life generally, we tend to appoint expectations, for example, that politicians really know a lot about economics and how to run countries, or that people operating oil wells really have all safety procedures under control. Only too often are we forced to 'dis-appoint' our expectations!

I look at it as say learning a musical instrument, one needs to know what it is as it is, learn how to play , and how to fine tune.....etc

So, there is no expectation and disappointment. It is just it is.

The issue is in the west when lots of people love to qoute Laotzu or philosophy.....etc and really never seen what it is. that is trouble.

In one sense, without the yiquan body mechanic then obviously there's not much point in calling it yiquan - so of course.

In another, extremely important sense, 'fight science' is the biggest part of yiquan; i.e. actual practical ability to throw punches and combinations, to be take a kick to the leg, to actually train for fighting in every modern sense.

That is the reason why I critics some previous posts in this thread.

if one dont know what it is and keep speculate and suspect and argue based on what they think that is off mark.

In Chinese martial art, there is the "body" of the art, and then based on the "body" of the art the "application" is supported.

it is useless if there is only "body" without application, and it is chaos if there is application without the "body".

Both has to be known and balance. otherwise one doesnt know what one is doing.

I brought up the spiral li because the power generation is different then ordinary way of muscle power striking. those who is good at spiral lik can do it on the fly without have to pull back and continous going.

First of all, the 'expectation' is that with a light movement of fa li from any point of the body another person can be made to fly away.

For me.
Again, that is due to one doesnt see thing as it is and know about momentum generation, momentum transfer... and have never see it as it is and understand its strength and limitation.
But keep fantasy out of the blue. or thinking they can short cut and become superman over night.

This issue of with or without a coach is interesting to me. My opinion is the same as Wang's - that as yiquan is 'natural', it's essential elements can be intuited by someone on their own - but to take that through in to a full level of yiquan, that would have to be a natural genius of yiquan.

I have not seen those who could enter the door of advance Chinese martial art without a good sifu.

as for "natural" , for example, lower abs breathing is "natural" but how many can do that without a good leading and practice, practice , practice?

One always needs to undo one's habit before one could flow with natural. and to undo one's habit one needs sifu and put in effort.

Kenichi Sawai said that people can learn from a photograph. I think, a great deal can be learned on your own, from videos, from words - sometimes just one idea someone tells you can open the door to a higher level.

that is if one has a good foundation.

for example a Hung Gar guy will not be able to learn about six directional force by himself because his root training is different . a Taiji or Xing Yi will be able to learn about six directional force easily if they have a good foundation in their art.

but with those who has no foundation there is no way for one to jump.

using me as example,
I do Wing Chun, I dont do Yiquan, but because I was train in internal kung of ancient Wing Chun, I can understand the basic of Yiquan. however, if I am not train that way, i would not be able to know what Yiquan is even in brief. so there needs to be a common language or bridge. otherwise it is hopeless.

another example is I study Ma Li-Tang's art, so when a person claim to do Xing Yi and cant tell me the "body" or body mechanics cultivation of the Xing Yi, but telling me some kind of mmA way of sanda fighting, I know he doesnt know Xing Yi.

So, from Wing Chun to Ma Li-Tang's art to....... Taiji.....etc everything what I have learn, I come to see why the Chinese always talk about Proper Transmission. without proper transmission in fact it is extremely difficult to have a balance view on what is the body and application of the art.

Hendrik

07-09-2011, 09:55 AM

[QUOTE]
From what I have read Wang did not want it to be a system, he did not even want a name on it.

It is just another tool to help you build your house.

If you treat it as something else, it would like using a boat to cross a river, and then wanting to carry the boat with you after you crossed the river. It just helps you get to the next level, like a finger pointing at the moon, don't dwell on the finger.

In general,

a holistic Chinese internal kung cultivation has basically two paths to start the cultivation.

one is via starting to cultivate the Qi. and the other is cultivate the Shen. and both has its pro and con.

YiQuan is taking the path of starting with the Shen. if you read Wang Xiang Zai's articles, you could find he talks about Qi cultivation too. but he goes into a "shen" direction.

While the ancient Xing Yi is based on three level of cultivation which based on Qi then proceed to Shen.

Miqi

07-09-2011, 11:08 AM

[QUOTE]
From what I have read Wang did not want it to be a system, he did not even want a name on it.

It is just another tool to help you build your house.

If you treat it as something else, it would like using a boat to cross a river, and then wanting to carry the boat with you after you crossed the river. It just helps you get to the next level, like a finger pointing at the moon, don't dwell on the finger.

This has to be considered very deeply, Yiquanone - and I'm by no means just dismissing what you say. However, to say that 'he didn't want it to be a system' isn't the same as saying 'we can call anything we want yiquan'. If it was, then all this talk of 'you must have a teacher to receive correct transmission' would be meaningless. What is it that they transmit?

Yiquan isn't really like JKD, except in some superficial senses. But this isn't the time to discuss that. Suffice to say here, as with JKD, yiquan can't just be 'anything', and yet, at the same time, it obviously can. This is why I asked you if you'd ever stopped and asked yourself why you train - because the answer to that question dictates how you utilise the paradox that: as with JKD, yiquan can't just be 'anything', and yet, at the same time, it obviously can.

Miqi

07-09-2011, 11:19 AM

So, from Wing Chun to Ma Li-Tang's art to....... Taiji.....etc everything what I have learn, I come to see why the Chinese always talk about Proper Transmission. without proper transmission in fact it is extremely difficult to have a balance view on what is the body and application of the art.

Yes, extremely difficult.

One of the real mysteries of yiquan, to me, is that as one proceeds, and our expectations are dis-appointed, ideas change their meaning; fanciful interpretations or expectations fall away, and simpler interpretations of the same idea take their place. The really strange thing is that as the explanations get simpler, their implications become more profound.

The question is, where does that knowledge come from? My coach could have explained some things to me again and again - did, in fact - and I'd appoint the same false expectation to his meaning again and again. But then one day you have an 'a ha' moment - and it's always to see that something was much simpler - but with much more profound consequences. That's when I realised how it's possible to be really dumb, but have an extremely complex - but meaningless - fancy set of explanations for martial arts ideas!

Hendrik

07-09-2011, 11:49 AM

Yes, extremely difficult.

One of the real mysteries of yiquan, to me, is that as one proceeds, and our expectations are dis-appointed, ideas change their meaning; fanciful interpretations or expectations fall away, and simpler interpretations of the same idea take their place. The really strange thing is that as the explanations get simpler, their implications become more profound.

The question is, where does that knowledge come from? My coach could have explained some things to me again and again - did, in fact - and I'd appoint the same false expectation to his meaning again and again. But then one day you have an 'a ha' moment - and it's always to see that something was much simpler - but with much more profound consequences. That's when I realised how it's possible to be really dumb, but have an extremely complex - but meaningless - fancy set of explanations for martial arts ideas!

It has been years and years that I take the attitude of ---
I shut up, Tell me what to do, do until what will surface, and I will do it---- toward my sifus.

That is also the reason I post in this forum to those who love to talk about Qi --- believe or dont believe or scientific.......etc, but obviously just speculating, that they need to turn off their mind and just get a sifu and practice and experience what is Qi themself when they actually cultivate and has it.

It might sound rude, but that is the only way to know what is going on. one cant just read and think and trying to figure out.

the state one enter with zero practice, with 1 hour everyday, 2 hour everyday,.... 24/7 are different. with zero practice or wrong practice one really cant get there.

so, the bottom line, is get there and then describe what one has developed. the rest is not worth much at all.

it is a very simple idea of to know thing as it is. but it is an extremely difficult practice for most people because they want thing as they think instead dont think but describe it as it is.

Hendrik

07-09-2011, 12:06 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6wI0TV9hyw&feature=player_embedded#at=40

Is that real?

why can he do that?

What is the mechanics?

YiQuanOne

07-09-2011, 01:15 PM

[QUOTE=YiQuanOne;1113076]

This has to be considered very deeply, Yiquanone - and I'm by no means just dismissing what you say. However, to say that 'he didn't want it to be a system' isn't the same as saying 'we can call anything we want yiquan'. If it was, then all this talk of 'you must have a teacher to receive correct transmission' would be meaningless. What is it that they transmit?

Yiquan isn't really like JKD, except in some superficial senses. But this isn't the time to discuss that. Suffice to say here, as with JKD, yiquan can't just be 'anything', and yet, at the same time, it obviously can. This is why I asked you if you'd ever stopped and asked yourself why you train - because the answer to that question dictates how you utilise the paradox that: as with JKD, yiquan can't just be 'anything', and yet, at the same time, it obviously can.

You train with form, to end without form.

Training is just a guide to be followed until you do not need the guide anymore.

Like training wheels on a bike, if you never take off the training wheels you will be limited in riding the bike. You need to shed the external look and find the internal form of your expresstion.

Wang did all kinds of styles before he was able to express himself.

If you have a certain base you can build a certain house. No base, unstable house. The teacher teaches you how to have a base to build from.

I would not try to read more into something that is not their, that is like dwelling on the finger.

I see most JKD as not having a base, it is more of an external style built around speed, that is why after Bruce Lee died, it was well know that people could not do his stuff. It worked for him, his expression of himself.

Scott R. Brown

07-09-2011, 02:53 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6wI0TV9hyw&feature=player_embedded#at=40

Is that real?

why can he do that?

What is the mechanics?

He explains the biomechanics of it in the vid.

Miqi

07-09-2011, 03:04 PM

it is a very simple idea of to know thing as it is. but it is an extremely difficult practice for most people because they want thing as they think instead dont think but describe it as it is.

You've said one of my favourite things there, Hendrik - something that seems like it says nothing - something that could easily just be ignored - but when you think about it, just keeps unfolding more and more meaning. Thanks.

Miqi

07-09-2011, 03:08 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6wI0TV9hyw&feature=player_embedded#at=40

Is that real?

why can he do that?

What is the mechanics?

There are two answers that I can give. One, it is not real. Two, it is something beyond my understanding.

Miqi

07-09-2011, 03:17 PM

Scott R. Brown

07-09-2011, 03:18 PM

There are two answers that I can give. One, it is not real. Two, it is something beyond my understanding.

It is real because he did do "something" that resulted in moving his partners, but what he did was biomechanics, he even says so!

If it was qi he wouldn't need to adjust his position in order to throw the assistant.

He also talks about it being too late (to perform the push), but then demonstrates through a readjustment of his positioning how to transition into a more biomechanically advantageous position.

Once you must adjust your position, it verifies it is biomechanics. If it was Qi, there would be no need to change position at all!

The question isn't really is it real, but is it practical?

The kid did over react, or over act rather!

Hendrik

07-09-2011, 03:24 PM

[QUOTE=Miqi;1113086]

You train with form, to end without form.

Training is just a guide to be followed until you do not need the guide anymore.

Like training wheels on a bike, if you never take off the training wheels you will be limited in riding the bike. You need to shed the external look and find the internal form of your expresstion.

Wang did all kinds of styles before he was able to express himself.

If you have a certain base you can build a certain house. No base, unstable house. The teacher teaches you how to have a base to build from.

I would not try to read more into something that is not their, that is like dwelling on the finger.

I see most JKD as not having a base, it is more of an external style built around speed, that is why after Bruce Lee died, it was well know that people could not do his stuff. It worked for him, his expression of himself.

we need to be really careful when it comes to internal art practice.

even every style/school is heading toward Dao. they use different direction and different vehichle. So, unless we really pin point their "DNA" or signature we really dont know them.

for example,

even both are Qigong, Shao LIn's Yi Jing JIng starts with lung medirian activation. Emei 12 Zhuang starts with liver medirian activation. these become two different schools of teaching and yield very different kind of results/ strength and weakness.

so, to go for ultimate is not solving the issue, one needs to know exactly what direction and what technology the particlular style/school is using.

Scott R. Brown

07-09-2011, 03:31 PM

....one needs to know exactly what direction and what technology the particlular style/school is using.

Only if one wishes to over complicate simple processes with mumbo jumbo

Ask yourself, why is it that these internal schools can only demonstrate their internal principles in the controlled circumstances of demonstrations and not in REAL fights, or at least serious sparring matches?

YouKnowWho

07-09-2011, 03:34 PM

internal art practice ... use different direction and different vehichle.

You obtain your opponent's front leg and then obtain his back leg. Since he has no legs left, he has to fall. When his head hits the ground, the fight is over. Where does the "internal art practice" and "different direction and different vehicle" play in this picture?

Why do we have to make thing so complicate?

Hendrik

07-09-2011, 04:13 PM

You obtain your opponent's front leg and then obtain his back leg. Since he has no legs left, he has to fall. When his head hits the ground, the fight is over. Where does the "internal art practice" and "different direction and different vehicle" play in this picture?

Why do we have to make thing so complicate?

My answer is in this song, I leave it to those who care

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYW3_997jPo&feature=related

誰在懸崖
綻放最美的愛
我是片雲彩
偶然為你灌溉
奈何風的主宰
來去總是在天地之外
在無風的地帶
就再也回不來
曾經滄海
怎能完全重來
花謝又開
誰能把你取代
潮起潮落
潮水依舊澎湃
讓我越來越願意不在
到頭來
放開手只剩塵埃

Miqi do you know chinese?

Scott R. Brown

07-09-2011, 04:31 PM

My answer is in this song, I leave it to those who care

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYW3_997jPo&feature=related

誰在懸崖
綻放最美的愛
我是片雲彩
偶然為你灌溉
奈何風的主宰
來去總是在天地之外
在無風的地帶
就再也回不來
曾經滄海
怎能完全重來
花謝又開
誰能把你取代
潮起潮落
潮水依舊澎湃
讓我越來越願意不在
到頭來
放開手只剩塵埃

Miqi do you know chinese?

Stop acting like an elitist child Hendrik!

Hendrik

07-09-2011, 04:42 PM

YiQuanOne

07-09-2011, 05:37 PM

[QUOTE=YiQuanOne;1113100]

Yiquanone, let's cut to the chase of what you're saying. Let me ask you, based on what you've said here, 'what, in your view, is "the base" '?

The base is that first you are connected internally, ussally to the ground first. Then you can connect to the other person, so that he is part of you,..... otherwise nothing works, you are then back to using external speed and power and position.

If you have not experenced it from someone else and been schooled on what is going on, and what you need to do on your part, I don't think you could ever find it on your own.

I could show people a 100 times, does not mean anything they still can't do it, it is not an external memory of muscle technique.

Like Hendrick says, you must get the body into the right state for this to manifest.
His saying of going through the two doors is pretty accurate.

But to connect to someone the energy must flow into you from him, that is why it is called internal energy flows in both directions not just out.

That movie that just came out where those people plugged in their tails or some thing into the big birds is a good example. Was that "Avatar" ? Two way flow.

Scott R. Brown

07-09-2011, 06:17 PM

in my word, internal art has no different then music. different Kungs have no different then different emotions evoke from different music. Different applications have no different with different songs.....

in my world, internal art is alive, alive within human's body, mind, breathing, Qi, soul.... it is lively and whole.

it certainly not dead and dry, mechanics and power hungry. But it is about spring where everything live and grow.

I appreciate that view, however you know most of us don't read Chinese, there is no benefit to posting something in chinese unless you want to demonstrate you can read it and others cannot!

It is elitist and inconsiderate!

Dragonzbane76

07-09-2011, 10:24 PM

YouKnowWho

07-09-2011, 10:33 PM

when speaking of ground i don't believe that "internal" does have an answer.

When an "internal" CMA master taught his students how to obtain their opponent's front leg, and also how to obtain their opponent's back leg, How will that teacher explain to his students that without "internal", it cannot be done?

How important is "internal" in some combat situations anyway? People may try to avoid such discussion but those concern still won't go away. Are there certain combat skills that have nothing to do with "internal"? What are those skills?

rett

07-09-2011, 11:47 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6wI0TV9hyw&feature=player_embedded#at=40

Is that real?

why can he do that?

What is the mechanics?

I believe it's real in the sense of being a worthwhile drill, but it is a drill and it requires a certain kind of cooperation from the guy playing the attacker. That cooperation exaggerates how much he "flys away"- I'm grateful to anyone willing to read my explanation of the mechanics and correct it if I have mistakes. I have felt what I'm describing to a certain degree but can't apply it.

The teacher in the vid says when the opponent's strength comes (the push), if you try to respond after it comes too far into your structure it's too late.As the opponent is coming in to make contact you are already collecting information and preparing to sink, gather and receive his power. Otherwise you won't be ready in time. Then you see how the teacher has to give way, or in worst case loses his balance.

Then he says "what you have to do is try to change the contents". I believe he means that as he feels the opponent's contact across some contact surface of his body, and feels the opponent's structure and his structure merge, he changes the direction of his body so that the oppenent's force is pressing at a more slanted or disadvantageous angle. The teacher keeps his structure but "changes" the content of force applied to him. (or the content of the whole two-body force structure)

If the opponent keeps pushing, his balance will be affected. You can really feel this if you push someone's chest and they use movements of their abdomen or chest muscles to change the angle of contact. If you keep pushing your structure starts getting undermined right away. Suddenly you feel too tall and starting to get wobbly. The teacher then returns the connection from a new angle that optimizes his balanced structure, and emphasizes the broken structure of the attacker.

Cooperation. Now the attacker has to keep giving a connection, keep pushing, or at least keep his own defence structure (arms, if it's arm contact) resilient and springy. If he does this he will bounce or fly away from the teacher, but it is he who is pushing himself away. The teacher can influence this by adding some of his own force. It's like if you stand on one foot, lean a bit back and then push against a wall.

If the attacker doesn't help by continuing to press after his balance is broken, then he won't fly anywhere. Even so, if his balance is bad right then, then the defender has an opportunity. When training this drill, the guy playing attacker is supposed to keep pushing in order to give the guy playing defender a good practice moment.

In more free training both people are trying to hide this connection and not offer the other anything to get hold of and work with, but here the attacker makes it as easy as possible for the defender, as a way to clearly illustrate the idea.

rett

07-09-2011, 11:57 PM

Ask yourself, why is it that these internal schools can only demonstrate their internal principles in the controlled circumstances of demonstrations and not in REAL fights, or at least serious sparring matches?

I believe they can manifest it, but it will just give incremental advantages in a dual-type match against a trained fighter, not the kind of dramatic fly-away effects you see in training (unless they get a golden opportunity). And they still would have to be good at fighting "the normal way" to stand up in that context. The time you spend training one thing is time you're not spending training something else.

What you call the "controlled circumstances of demonstrations" is an outward show of what really is the controlled circumstances of practicing, lots of practice. A boxer might skip rope to get a better body and agility. But the difference in his fighting will still be incremental against other trained fighters who stand flat-footed. No magic quick fixes.

However for self defence against an ordinary attacker, untrained and disciplined, you could very well see very dramatic effects with the attacker flying off with almost no movement from the defender.

YouKnowWho

07-10-2011, 12:00 AM

the attacker flying off ...
Why do you want to make the attacker to fly off? Will he come back again anyway?

Scott R. Brown

07-10-2011, 01:15 AM

I believe they can manifest it, but it will just give incremental advantages in a dual-type match against a trained fighter, not the kind of dramatic fly-away effects you see in training (unless they get a golden opportunity). And they still would have to be good at fighting "the normal way" to stand up in that context. The time you spend training one thing is time you're not spending training something else.

What you call the "controlled circumstances of demonstrations" is an outward show of what really is the controlled circumstances of practicing, lots of practice. A boxer might skip rope to get a better body and agility. But the difference in his fighting will still be incremental against other trained fighters who stand flat-footed. No magic quick fixes.

However for self defence against an ordinary attacker, untrained and disciplined, you could very well see very dramatic effects with the attacker flying off with almost no movement from the defender.

More likely the one you will see flying is the internal MA whilst he is getting his a$$ kicked!

Miqi

07-10-2011, 03:51 AM

It is real because he did do "something" that resulted in moving his partners, but what he did was biomechanics, he even says so!

If it was qi he wouldn't need to adjust his position in order to throw the assistant.

He also talks about it being too late (to perform the push), but then demonstrates through a readjustment of his positioning how to transition into a more biomechanically advantageous position.

Once you must adjust your position, it verifies it is biomechanics. If it was Qi, there would be no need to change position at all!

The question isn't really is it real, but is it practical?

The kid did over react, or over act rather!

Myself, I've never seen, nor is there to my knowledge, any biomechanics that can produce this effect. That doesn't mean it isn't biomechanics, just, like I say, it is beyond my ken.

I have noticed, however, that what seem to be abilities that are way beyond normal abilities, tend to be discussed now at some point with the phrase 'this is not magic it's biomechanics'.

Biomechanics is somepart of all physical movements that we do - even if qi is involved - but what sort of biomechanics would produce the effect in this video? What worries me is that if there is literally only one way to understand it - and that is by being able to do it - then it obviously can't be explained. If it can't be explained beyond just saying 'it's biomechanics' - then in what sense can it be biomechanics if it can't be explained? Because biomechanics is a physical science.

Miqi

07-10-2011, 04:17 AM

The base is that first you are connected internally, ussally to the ground first. Then you can connect to the other person, so that he is part of you,..... otherwise nothing works, you are then back to using external speed and power and position.

If you have not experenced it from someone else and been schooled on what is going on, and what you need to do on your part, I don't think you could ever find it on your own.

I could show people a 100 times, does not mean anything they still can't do it, it is not an external memory of muscle technique.

Like Hendrick says, you must get the body into the right state for this to manifest.
His saying of going through the two doors is pretty accurate.

But to connect to someone the energy must flow into you from him, that is why it is called internal energy flows in both directions not just out.

That movie that just came out where those people plugged in their tails or some thing into the big birds is a good example. Was that "Avatar" ? Two way flow.

This is the difference between yiquan theory and your theory - and also JKD theory, Yiquanone. In yiquan, the base is far less complicated - the base is, as it is in most good sports and physical activity sciences, 'you'.

In JKD, the 'base' as it is generally understood is to devote precious training time to developing a scientifically reasonable, usually intelligently limited, set of effective, useful techniques for self defence or offensive fighting. That is their 'base', and everything proceeds from that.

In JKD, once you follow this process, and see it through, you achieve 'liberty' - freedom from fixed forms, freedom of time - because you don't waste time practising things that don't achieve your aim - and the freedom of being able to defend yourself and others.

In yiquan theory, though, all techniques are 'superficial', so for yiquan, the JKD 'liberty' isn't the same thing as yiquan 'freedom' or 'natural ability'. In yiquan, you want the shen fa to use any technique, even a shoulder barge, and all and any JKD techique as well.

In yiquan theory, to be limited to a small, highly useful set of self defence techniques is not un-useful, but it is still a prison - just one that is much smaller than someone who knows thousands of techniques. Freedom is when you don't need to practice thousands of different techniques to keep them all crisp, nor do you need to limit yourself to only a handful. Freedom is where you have one type of shen fa that allows you to use any technique within your capability.

That's a theory, by the bye, lol. Theories are easy to spout, of course. And it shouldn't be taken to mean that yiquan doesn't involve a great deal of basic technique training - it obviously does, especially the kinds of core techniques used in JKD.

In JKD you have your strongest weapon forwards. In Yiquan, there is no forwards. How do you have your strongest weapon to someone who attacks from behind?

In JKD, you take a gamble that low side kick will stop most folks - and it will, if it connects. But if you watch JKD people train, if they miss the low side kick it's often as if some rule has been broken. The kick is 'expected' to work, and if it doesn't, the adaptation can be missing. What if it doesn't work? What if it misses, slips off, or the other person doesn't attack in the expected way? What if they are off at an angle? Only the most expert JKD guys are able to cope with that.

In yiquan, the base is you - you are the essential part of yiquan. Zhan zhuang, shi li, mo ca bu, are remedial exercises to train greater control over your body.

One problem with JKD is that there's a phenomenon where people decide one day, over night sometimes, that 'all that is needed is low side kick, straight jab, eye poke' etc. That's all fine and dandy - but just deciding that 'there are no rules' doesn't actually impart the ability to effectively side kick, straight blast or eye poke.

Hence, numerous JKD schools have tried to solve that problem by adapting numerous 'platforms' - so they move from wing chun body mechanics, to boxing, his is because, beyond apeing Bruce Lee, there is no JKD theory for actually training. By which I mean, you can practice low side kick in numerous different ways - which way is the JKD way? Lift knee first, as in yiquan and san da? Slide up from the floor in an arc, like TKD?

JKD is at that point always, except in the most brilliant teahcers such as Bruce himself, simply because its 'base' is technical - its base is techniques.

In yiquan, the base is you. There is only one you, and the training process is there to allow you to unfold your natural ability - in theory. Part of that, you're correct, is in learning how to connect the whole body. Another part is to be adaptive. Another part is, unlike JKD, to be completely free from technical expectations; there is no sense in yiquan that you're going to try to check side kick - that would be to try to make an attack conform to your expectations - and yiquan is about disappointing expectations. The only thing that can adapt is natural ability to adapt.

I don't find your description wrong - I just think that you're highly focussed on technical matters. I've been leathered by JKD guys, and by san da guys, and by muay thai guys. For all the theory, it must come down to practical training. Concepts of 'internal connection' become much more grounded and straightfowards when you try to make it work when someone is booting you in the leg. And that's when you realise, the base is you.

Miqi

07-10-2011, 04:28 AM

Why do you want to make the attacker to fly off? Will he come back again anyway?

Two issues have to be separated here. One, in what sense is pushing useful? If you have a god range of skills, then pushing is just one aspect of what you do. If you can push someone over a table, or in to someone else, or just to get some distance, or to move someone physically in to a position where you can hit them more effectively, then pushing is just one part of a skill set - which is how it's supposed to be within yiquan.

Two, why do certain teachers only show making people fly away, and no other practical fighting skills?

There are two possible answers I could give to that.

One, because they have no actual fight skills, so focus on parlour tricks.
Two, what they are doing, their level, and their practise, is beyond my understanding.

rett

07-10-2011, 05:16 AM

Why do you want to make the attacker to fly off? Will he come back again anyway?

Disrupting someone's balance to that extent provides an opportunity.

Hendrik

07-10-2011, 09:02 AM

Everyone has a great idea.

For me, looking at all these ideas and compare with what is the facts of training and fighting.... in the generation of Gou Yin Shen, Ma Li-Tang....etc from late 1800 to 1980's where the proper transmission and practice were practice...

what I observe from all these ideas are

For the defend of internal art , upto now, some thing with depth and insight have not surface, nothing alive.
For the skeptics of internal art, they are 100% missing the points.

my take is

故人已散留你在身旁
錯過了時光錯過了欣賞
擦肩而過的人是悲傷

it is not a matter of translation into english, it is a matter of there are sentiment within how a language is used and expressed on the issue. perhaps some one with very good poety english ability could translate it.

Hendrik

07-10-2011, 09:26 AM

There are two answers that I can give. One, it is not real. Two, it is something beyond my understanding.

for me,

if one has the six directional force vectors cultivation, has the four basic momentum generation/handling mechanics cultivation.

Then one could clearly and specifically identify what is going on.

Other then that everyone's 5 cents doesnt worth much at all.

Hendrik

07-10-2011, 09:27 AM

I have felt what I'm describing to a certain degree but can't apply it.

.

Interesting isnt it? hahaha

so why is that?

YiQuanOne

07-10-2011, 10:42 AM

Ha, I know, maybe it is like the movie "Matrix" and we can control the program.

SPJ

07-10-2011, 10:57 AM

故人已散留你在身旁
錯過了時光錯過了欣賞
擦肩而過的人是悲傷

this is actually a love poem.

can not help it but mention the love song, heart rain or xin yu.

it is with simple lyrics and simple tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkSUAywpRWg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaaFrNLZChA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjj6Jn0i0xY

final missing/thinking before arranged marriage

---

so much missing and so hard to say good bye

--

such a soft tune with so much power

so are internal/external arguments

--

Miqi

07-10-2011, 10:59 AM

for me,

if one has the six directional force vectors cultivation, has the four basic momentum generation/handling mechanics cultivation.

Then one could clearly and specifically identify what is going on.

Other then that everyone's 5 cents doesnt worth much at all.

Then I have no choice but to say, as far as my understanding goes, it isn't real. And in return, of course, some people must say that my understanding is too low. In return, I say, maybe it is - hence, the only two things I can say about it.

I say, yiquan is far more profound, far more down to earth, and far more realistic in its true application, than in that video, and that my understanding, and my opinon, is the true one.

And now you have two choices.

Miqi

07-10-2011, 11:01 AM

Ha, I know, maybe it is like the movie "Matrix" and we can control the program.

Don't forget that in the Matrix, for most people, the programe controlled you.

SPJ

07-10-2011, 11:02 AM

internal ism

is saying yes to soft power.

but not saying good bye to hard power.

there.

:)

Hendrik

07-10-2011, 11:03 AM

Then I have no choice but to say, as far as my understanding goes, it isn't real. And in return, of course, some people must say that my understanding is too low. In return, I say, maybe it is - hence, the only two things I can say about it.

I say, yiquan is far more profound, far more down to earth, and far more realistic in its true application, than in that video, and that my understanding, and my opinon, is the true one.

And now you have two choices.

for me,

opinion with non technical reasoning is great.
however, it really doesnt go any where.

real why real? based on what? isnt real why isnt real? based on what?
one doesnt have to got profound, just using the basic principle, is it accord with the principle? is it statisfied the basic?.....

Scott R. Brown

07-10-2011, 11:10 AM

Myself, I've never seen, nor is there to my knowledge, any biomechanics that can produce this effect. That doesn't mean it isn't biomechanics, just, like I say, it is beyond my ken.

I have noticed, however, that what seem to be abilities that are way beyond normal abilities, tend to be discussed now at some point with the phrase 'this is not magic it's biomechanics'.

Biomechanics is somepart of all physical movements that we do - even if qi is involved - but what sort of biomechanics would produce the effect in this video? What worries me is that if there is literally only one way to understand it - and that is by being able to do it - then it obviously can't be explained. If it can't be explained beyond just saying 'it's biomechanics' - then in what sense can it be biomechanics if it can't be explained? Because biomechanics is a physical science.

It is important to remember that just because YOU cannot explain something, does not mean it is not explainable!;)

You can duplicate what you see in this vid with a little practice and a properly compliant opponent.

Start by watching the vid slowly in order to see what I am trying to describe to you.

Keep in mind he has a compliant opponent who is a light weight! Most of these demos involve light weight opponents who are compliant!

If there was no compliance and/or the opponent weighed closer to 350# and had a sense of center, for example a pro linebacker, he would not be able to accomplish this trick.

1) The instructor moves forward into the student, thus creating forward momentum.

2) The student has a narrow stance and his weight is carried very high in his chest, this is a very poor use of center and makes one VERY unstable.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6296&stc=1&d=1310319311

This photo is just prior to the push. Look at the student and how unstable his stance is compared to the instructor. His heel is up on the right leg, both knees are bent, his stance is too narrow and his weight is already leaning slightly backwards.

Now look at the instructor's stance! slightly forward, rear heel firmly on the ground, rear leg straight, but not stiff, tan tien centered.

The student has his weight HIGH, in his chest, the instructor's weight is low, in his tan tien!

In the first push the student attempts to move into the instructor, but he does so with his upper torso NOT his center. When you move forward using your center, your shoulders move with your hips not forward of them, as the instructors is demonstrating.

When contact is made just prior to the push the student's center is too high. This is clear to anyone who has experience with these types of actions. If someone already has a high center that is good for you, if they don't, you create a way for them to elevate it!

The higher the center of your opponent compared to your own and the narrower the stance, the easier it is to control them!

3) The student's forward movement is not forceful. It is merely a forward lean without real aggression or force! This is an exceedingly weak attack, is it not?

4) As the instructor approaches the student, and places his hands upon the forearms, the arms collapse into the students center. The natural reaction of an opponent is to straighten the arms.

The instructor starts the students backward motion with his forward momentum and a slight push, then maintains a stable base while the student pushes himself away on his own.

The student's arms collapse into his torso, making him even more unstable. You can demonstrate this for yourself. Adopt this student's poor stance and collapse your elbows and arms into your torso, have your partner push on your forearms and see how easily it is for him to topple you. It is important to have the poor stance of course!

When your arms are pushed in towards your body, the spontaneous reaction is to resist the force, this is accomplished by trying to straighten the arms. As you attempt to straighten your arms, since you are already moving slightly backwards and your opponent is in a stable stance, YOU move backwards instead of your opponent.

The student moves backwards and it is himself who is doing most of the pushing. Try this: stand very close to a wall, and then slightly lean into it, then straighten your arms. The wall is stable, so what moves is you! And you move from your upper torso first not your hips because that is where the biomechanical force is applied! If your base is close to wall and narrow you will fall backwards rather than step backwards which is what a stable, and experienced, person would do rather than lean/fall backwards.

Towards the end of the first push, the leading body part of the student (in the backwards direction) is his butt! This is because his torso is too stiff and the force from the arms moves down the body to the hips.

An effective reaction to the instructor's push would be to either allow him to push you and when you land regain a properly stable stance or turn your torso. By turning your torso the force is directed away from your center. BUT once your elbows and forearms have collapsed into your torso, it is exceedingly difficult to turn your torso, because they are locked in so to speak by your biomechanics!

Okay, that is an explanation of the first push! You can actually do this very same thing with a partner. Be sure he is not resisting you at first. You must learn to do the movement without resistance first against a compliant opponent.

It is fun actually and you will learn much more about biomechanics and how your center can attack the center of your opponent more easily than you thought!:)

BTW, this explanation is not meant to take anything away from the instructor. He is very skilled at this trick. I am sure to him it is not a trick, I call them tricks because they are like a magician's illusion. They WOW us until we know the secret, and then they are not as impressive.

It is still unlikely this skill/trick would be very effective in a REAL fight, however!

YiQuanOne

07-10-2011, 11:12 AM

Don't forget that in the Matrix, for most people, the programe controlled you.

That's my point, maybe the "internal" over rides the program.

Hendrik

07-10-2011, 11:15 AM

this is actually a love poem.

can not help it but mention the love song, heart rain or xin yu.

i
--

in this case the lover is the ancient art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFprdzHje0o&feature=player_embedded

夜雨凍　雨點透射到照片中
回頭似是夢　無法彈動
迷住凝望妳　褪色照片中

＊啊　像花雖未紅　如冰雖不凍
卻像有無數說話　可惜我聽不懂

SPJ

07-10-2011, 11:20 AM

Hendrik

07-10-2011, 11:24 AM

I like simple words and honest words.

do not like too many words or flowery words

I like simple tunes and not too complicated tunes.

so are MA

I like simple and straightforward moves.

I do not like flowery and complicated moves.

--

夜雨凍　雨點透射到照片中
回頭似是夢　無法彈動
迷住凝望妳　褪色照片中

＊啊　像花雖未紅　如冰雖不凍
卻像有無數說話　可惜我聽不懂

故后人有内家拳之称。李先生传郭云深、刘奇兰、车毅斋、宋氏德、张林德、宋世荣、白西园等数十人。郭云深传刘纬祥先生。我幼年；老师张占魁先生，站桩未下功夫。30年从刘先生后，与同学谢一飞、刘书琴等较技辄败北。先生笑曰：练拳不站桩，吃饭没有仓，三劈不如一站，站桩是形意拳的基本功，你要从头学起。从此，我才下功夫练站桩。

秦重三编《气功疗法》中的三合式，工芗斋编的《大成拳》都脱胎于此......

............研究推手、技击不是打架，要在“随”字上下功夫，不要轻易发劲。要教人服，不要叫人怕，过去刘老师出手则伤人，人称他刘二骠子，所以在形意门中许多人不喜欢他，都知道他是郭云深老先生最得意之弟子，敬而远之，有不少形意拳谱问世，不列上刘伟祥的名字。你们姜师伯比我功夫高的多，他不打我给我引手，教我柔化，他比我大二十多岁，能战这么长时间太不简单了，过去我们常在一起研究，通过实践使你技击本领不能保留，逼得你不能不全力以赴，敌不动我不动，敌微动我先动，气感稍迟一点就失败，这就是我在国术革命中主张的技击实验，所谓差之毫厘，谬之千里，不通过技击实验不能长真功夫，自己亲兄弟在一起总要真拼，不要只在对打拳上下功夫，遇到外人他要拳打脚踢随便进，那你就无法应付了。练拳架子、站桩养内气，大气充满全身就不怕打了，通过松静站立就能获得轻灵，轻灵就能听劲，能听劲就则可以敌不动我不动，敌微动我先动，可以四两拨千斤，可以发出至大至刚不可思议的爆炸力，意到气到，气到力就到，舍己从人，应付自如，对方就服了，用不着吃偏发劲打人，你们姜师伯把我打不出去，因为他年老力衰，这样应付就是功夫，这比伸手将人打倒高出若干倍。我在193年拜杜心武老师，不是被他打倒才拜师，是他吸着我脱不出去我才心悦诚服的拜了老师，你们不要只练刚劲，要多练柔劲，不要学我的发手打人，要学姜师伯的柔化，这才能提高。........

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_60048d410100fnh6.html

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_60048d410100flay.html

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4c04eb7d0100bz24.html

故人已散留你在身旁
錯過了時光錯過了欣賞
擦肩而過的人是悲傷

some one who has both good Chinese and English might want to translate these. a snap short of the facts on Xing Yi, JiQuan, Internal martial arts, qi,.... practice and training is here.

any one spend a day with the above links will have a better idea to know what is an internal art.

Miqi

07-10-2011, 11:28 AM

for me,

opinion with non technical reasoning is great.
however, it really doesnt go any where.

real why real? based on what? isnt real why isnt real? based on what?
one doesnt have to got profound, just using the basic principle, is it accord with the principle? is it statisfied the basic?.....

There are numerous people willing to stand up and say that thay guy is a really great yiquan master.

I say he isn't.
You think he is.

Once you've decided that the video itself is evidence enough, then there's no point in arguing about the video- as, the same video is both evidence to me that he doesn't know yiquan, and evidence to you that he does.

It doesn't really matter. Whichever one of us is true will get the most benefit from what we saw in the video - so at least one of us will get something out of the discussion!

Miqi

07-10-2011, 11:34 AM

It is important to remember that just because YOU cannot explain something, does not mean it is not explainable!;)

You can duplicate what you see in this vid with a little practice and a properly compliant opponent.

Start by watching the vid slowly in order to see what I am trying to describe to you.

Keep in mind he has a compliant opponent who is a light weight! Most of these demos involve light weight opponents who are compliant!

If there was no compliance and/or the opponent weighed closer to 350# and had a sense of center, for example a pro linebacker, he would not be able to accomplish this trick.

1) The instructor moves forward into the student, thus creating forward momentum.

2) The student has a narrow stance and his weight is carried very high in his chest, this is a very poor use of center and makes one VERY unstable.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6296&stc=1&d=1310319311

This photo is just prior to the push. Look at the student and how unstable his stance is compared to the instructor. His heel is up on the right leg, both knees are bent, his stance is too narrow and his weight is already leaning slightly backwards.

Now look at the instructor's stance! slightly forward, rear heel firmly on the ground, rear leg straight, but not stiff, tan tien centered.

The student has his weight HIGH, in his chest, the instructor's weight is low, in his tan tien!

In the first push the student attempts to move into the instructor, but he does so with his upper torso NOT his center. When you move forward using your center, your shoulders move with your hips not forward of them, as the instructors is demonstrating.

When contact is made just prior to the push the student's center is too high. This is clear to anyone who has experience with these types of actions. If someone already has a high center that is good for you, if they don't, you create a way for them to elevate it!

The higher the center of your opponent compared to your own and the narrower the stance, the easier it is to control them!

3) The student's forward movement is not forceful. It is merely a forward lean without real aggression or force! This is an exceedingly weak attack, is it not?

4) As the instructor approaches the student, and places his hands upon the forearms, the arms collapse into the students center. The natural reaction of an opponent is to straighten the arms.

The instructor starts the students backward motion with his forward momentum and a slight push, then maintains a stable base while the student pushes himself away on his own.

The student's arms collapse into his torso, making him even more unstable. You can demonstrate this for yourself. Adopt this student's poor stance and collapse your elbows and arms into your torso, have your partner push on your forearms and see how easily it is for him to topple you. It is important to have the poor stance of course!

When your arms are pushed in towards your body, the spontaneous reaction is to resist the force, this is accomplished by trying to straighten the arms. As you attempt to straighten your arms, since you are already moving slightly backwards and your opponent is in a stable stance, YOU move backwards instead of your opponent.

The student moves backwards and it is himself who is doing most of the pushing. Try this: stand very close to a wall, and then slightly lean into it, then straighten your arms. The wall is stable, so what moves is you! And you move from your upper torso first not your hips because that is where the biomechanical force is applied! If your base is close to wall and narrow you will fall backwards rather than step backwards which is what a stable, and experienced, person would do rather than lean/fall backwards.

Towards the end of the first push, the leading body part of the student (in the backwards direction) is his butt! This is because his torso is too stiff and the force from the arms moves down the body to the hips.

An effective reaction to the instructor's push would be to either allow him to push you and when you land regain a properly stable stance or turn your torso. By turning your torso the force is directed away from your center. BUT once your elbows and forearms have collapsed into your torso, it is exceedingly difficult to turn your torso, because they are locked in so to speak by your biomechanics!

Okay, that is an explanation of the first push! You can actually do this very same thing with a partner. Be sure he is not resisting you at first. You must learn to do the movement without resistance first against a compliant opponent.

It is fun actually and you will learn much more about biomechanics and how your center can attack the center of your opponent more easily than you thought!:)

BTW, this explanation is not meant to take anything away from the instructor. He is very skilled at this trick. I am sure to him it is not a trick, I call them tricks because they are like a magician's illusion. They WOW us until we know the secret, and then they are not as impressive.

It is still unlikely this skill/trick would be very effective in a REAL fight, however!

All you're saying is that it's possible to push someone over if they're off balance. Apart from that, all we see in the video is a kid jumping backwards of his own volition.

That's it - that's all there is in that video.