Goju Ryu

I've had the good fortune to make friends with a sensei of Goju Ryu karate and I'm seeing many, many connections between Wing Chun/ TCMA and his style. Anybody here study Goju Ryu?

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Originally Posted by WingChunABQ

I've had the good fortune to make friends with a sensei of Goju Ryu karate and I'm seeing many, many connections between Wing Chun/ TCMA and his style. Anybody here study Goju Ryu?

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Okinawan Goju for a few years before I moved over to kyokushin.

So there's the one Goju form that uses a static stance and slow breathing (you know which I mean?). Is it a similar idea to Hung Ga Iron Wire and Wing Chun Siu Nim Tao?

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Originally Posted by WingChunABQ

So there's the one Goju form that uses a static stance and slow breathing (you know which I mean?). Is it a similar idea to Hung Ga Iron Wire and Wing Chun Siu Nim Tao?

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Sanchin and it is a very basic "breathing form" compared to the Tid Sin Kuen.
There are many versions of sanchin but they, typically, can be divided into 2:
Pre-Miyagi and Post Miyagi.
The Higaonna Sanchin was longer, had two turns, did not move backwards and was, in some versions, less dynamic tension like.
Of course some versions of the Higaonna one are just like the Miyagi one ( deep breathing, tension, etc) and have the two turns.
It seems the depending on WHEN one learned Sanchin from Miyagi or perhaps why Miyagi was teaching sanchin at the time, one got a certain sanchin.

I really like the dynamic tension aspect of that form. I'm pretty limited in my exposure to Japanese/Okinawan martial arts as a whole, but that kind of static stance + breathing + dynamic tension seems kind of rare in arts with those origins.

Also, they have a kind of sticky hands practice too, right?

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Originally Posted by WingChunABQ

I really like the dynamic tension aspect of that form. I'm pretty limited in my exposure to Japanese/Okinawan martial arts as a whole, but that kind of static stance + breathing + dynamic tension seems kind of rare in arts with those origins.

Also, they have a kind of sticky hands practice too, right?

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Yes and the "iron arm training".
Considering Goju's southern kung fu origins ( either white crane or 5 ancestors or perhaps even both), it makes sense it would have them, albeit in a very "okinawan way".
Sanchin ( and it's TCMA parents) is a very individualistic form and, depending on what one is working on, can be done in many different ways.
Some teachers were exposed to when their teacher was doing it in certain way while others got it when the same teacher was doing it different ( not better or worse just different) and that is how they passed it along.

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Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

Yes and the "iron arm training".
Considering Goju's southern kung fu origins ( either white crane or 5 ancestors or perhaps even both), it makes sense it would have them, albeit in a very "okinawan way".
Sanchin ( and it's TCMA parents) is a very individualistic form and, depending on what one is working on, can be done in many different ways.
Some teachers were exposed to when their teacher was doing it in certain way while others got it when the same teacher was doing it different ( not better or worse just different) and that is how they passed it along.

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It's funny you should say that ("individualistic"). I happen to feel that each WC form should be done this way, working on specific aspects of development and not doing them the same way each time. Some people treat them as holy writ.

Here's a video of several karate masters from different styles (as well as a kung fu master) all doing their own version of the Sanchin kata side by side.

Wow liked that vid. Like a cross section of differences and similarities through a bunch of styles. Interesting. I have a form called vital breathing/snake tension that shares a lot of similarities with sanchin.

Great video. It's interesting to see the common core to the forms, even though each sensei has his own emphasis.

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Originally Posted by WingChunABQ

Great video. It's interesting to see the common core to the forms, even though each sensei has his own emphasis.

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Forms were never meant to be set in stone, in particular the "development' forms.
Too many people gets stuck in the delusion of ",my way/the way was taught is right and unless it is THAT way, you are wrong"
Pure bullocks.
I know 3 different versions of the tid sid kuen and I know the kyokushin sanchin, two versions of okinawan goju sanchin, Uechi ryu sanchin, five ancestors sanchin and white crane sanjian and 3 versions of SPM sarm boo gin ( forgive the spelling of course).
All are good, all do the job they were intended for and all are different and NONE are wrong.

For sure. I've learned at least two different versions of the WC forms from two different teachers, each with different emphases. More than that, both sifus I've studied under have 'modified' those forms as the years have gone on to suit different needs and changing approaches for themselves and their students.

As I've said before, people treat some aspects of their martial arts as holy writ, which is a limiting approach.

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Originally Posted by WingChunABQ

For sure. I've learned at least two different versions of the WC forms from two different teachers, each with different emphases. More than that, both sifus I've studied under have 'modified' those forms as the years have gone on to suit different needs and changing approaches for themselves and their students.

As I've said before, people treat some aspects of their martial arts as holy writ, which is a limiting approach.

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I agree, here is an example in regards to the tid sin kuen whichis also applicable to sanchin and "dynamic tension" forms:
The valsalva maneuver:
The Valsalva maneuver or Valsalva manoeuvre is performed by moderately forceful attempted exhalation against a closed airway, usually done by closing one's mouth, pinching one's nose shut while bearing down as if having a bowel movement. Variations of the maneuver can be used either in medical examination as a test of cardiac function and autonomic nervous control of the heart, or to "clear" the ears and sinuses (that is, to equalize pressure between them) when ambient pressure changes, as in diving, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, or aviation.

The technique is named after Antonio Maria Valsalva,[1] a 17th-century physician and anatomist from Bologna whose principal scientific interest was the human ear. He described the Eustachian tube and the maneuver to test its patency (openness). He also described the use of this maneuver to expel pus from the middle ear.

A modified version is done by expiring against a closed glottis. This will elicit the cardiovascular responses described below but will not force air into the Eustachian tubes.

A modified version is what is/ can be used in dynamic tension forms where the breath is held for a couple of seconds and then realized in the typical slow method and I know a few who have modififed their forms and have gotten great results.

Uechi Ryu is famous for our hissing release of breath when we perform Sanchin.

We flow throw movement with tension and release and moving back to tension.

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Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

I agree, here is an example in regards to the tid sin kuen whichis also applicable to sanchin and "dynamic tension" forms:
The valsalva maneuver:
The Valsalva maneuver or Valsalva manoeuvre is performed by moderately forceful attempted exhalation against a closed airway, usually done by closing one's mouth, pinching one's nose shut while bearing down as if having a bowel movement. Variations of the maneuver can be used either in medical examination as a test of cardiac function and autonomic nervous control of the heart, or to "clear" the ears and sinuses (that is, to equalize pressure between them) when ambient pressure changes, as in diving, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, or aviation.

The technique is named after Antonio Maria Valsalva,[1] a 17th-century physician and anatomist from Bologna whose principal scientific interest was the human ear. He described the Eustachian tube and the maneuver to test its patency (openness). He also described the use of this maneuver to expel pus from the middle ear.

A modified version is done by expiring against a closed glottis. This will elicit the cardiovascular responses described below but will not force air into the Eustachian tubes.

A modified version is what is/ can be used in dynamic tension forms where the breath is held for a couple of seconds and then realized in the typical slow method and I know a few who have modififed their forms and have gotten great results.

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Would just like to add something to this.

This is the reason that you see people grunt when lifting heavy weight. Doing this temporarily increases(spikes) intraabdominal pressure(basically the same thing a correctly designed weightlifting belt is made for), allowing for more power generation.

However, only if done correctly. A quick grunt is more effective. A long, drawn-out scream will have the opposite affect since it will be an exhalation.

Thus, the Kiai. It's amazing how in-tune with their bodies people were before modern science.

Also, the fact that most people can lift something they consider to be heavy and almost ALWAYS inadvertently grunt is pretty neat. The body knows.

@Sanjuro - That's pretty cool. I wonder what the effects of that kinds of training are on the muscles of the abdomen and diaphram i.e., I wonder if it helps a practitioner to not get the wind knocked out of him/her.

@JamesC - "The body knows" ... love it.

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Originally Posted by JamesC

Would just like to add something to this.

This is the reason that you see people grunt when lifting heavy weight. Doing this temporarily increases(spikes) intraabdominal pressure(basically the same thing a correctly designed weightlifting belt is made for), allowing for more power generation.

However, only if done correctly. A quick grunt is more effective. A long, drawn-out scream will have the opposite affect since it will be an exhalation.

Thus, the Kiai. It's amazing how in-tune with their bodies people were before modern science.

Also, the fact that most people can lift something they consider to be heavy and almost ALWAYS inadvertently grunt is pretty neat. The body knows.

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Quite correct, and to develop on what you said, notice how easily the body "switches" to reverse breathing to exert force, without having to "train" to do it?

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Originally Posted by WingChunABQ

@Sanjuro - That's pretty cool. I wonder what the effects of that kinds of training are on the muscles of the abdomen and diaphram i.e., I wonder if it helps a practitioner to not get the wind knocked out of him/her.

@JamesC - "The body knows" ... love it.

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The drawback of sanchin-type training is that it CAN cause "state-dependent" ability ie: you get good at and are able to take shots BUT only in the "sanchin trance".
That is why it is CRUCIAL to develop your ability to take a shot under dynamic circumstances after you have developed it in the more "static" way in sanchin.
The ability to take a shot while giving shot is vital for any fighter and that is where hard sparring comes in ( something the all systems that use sanchin used to/should have right now).

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Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

The drawback of sanchin-type training is that it CAN cause "state-dependent" ability ie: you get good at and are able to take shots BUT only in the "sanchin trance".
That is why it is CRUCIAL to develop your ability to take a shot under dynamic circumstances after you have developed it in the more "static" way in sanchin.
The ability to take a shot while giving shot is vital for any fighter and that is where hard sparring comes in ( something the all systems that use sanchin used to/should have right now).

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I'd imagine there's an aerobic factor there too, i.e., can you use "sanchin breathing" to take a shot while winded in the middle of a fight/sparring match? Or how does that type of breathing exercise adapt to being out of breath?

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Originally Posted by WingChunABQ

I'd imagine there's an aerobic factor there too, i.e., can you use "sanchin breathing" to take a shot while winded in the middle of a fight/sparring match? Or how does that type of breathing exercise adapt to being out of breath?

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Endurance is task specific and although there is always some carry over, the more specific the cardio-vascular endurance the less carry over to a non related activity.
In short, while the body does adapt to being able to take a shot when doing sanchin, it tends to only do that at it's highest degree under the same circumstances it is developed.
Hence the need for developing it when actually fighting since fighting tends to be more adrenaline filed and far less "paced" than sanchin training.
IN other words, just because you can take a full force round kick to the gut in sanchin, that doesn't mean you can take the same kick in the middle of a fight after thinking what was coming was a right cross.

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